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Raid/Buffed DPS Comparison of each RACE by Class [Tests, Graphs, Interpretation and Final Score]

  • simeion
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    Pevey wrote: »
    No race should be pigeon holed into being a "tank race." Imperial performance is very disappointing, especially considering that people PAID for the expansion with the racials as they WERE.

    Imperial should be a jack of all trades race, maybe change red diamond passive so it restores your highest resource, that way tanks and both types of dps can benefit from it

    I made a suggestion of making the 2k stam to 1k stam and 1k magic and do the same thing with the passive.
  • vesselwiththepestle
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    susmitds wrote: »
    Armor + Jewelry Enchants - All Stamina/Magicka(Armor), Weapon/Spell Damage(Jewelry)

    Wouldn't it have been better to change Armor enchantments so every one gets 17k health? I wonder how much Nords and Imperials get ahead of Redguard as Stamina DPS when you are slotting health glyphs. My raid groups normally require around 18k hp with Ebony buff. Especially when you consider Redguards are giving you nothing except Stamina + Sustain, while Nords give Resistances+Ulti and Imperials give additional self heal.
    Edited by vesselwiththepestle on January 25, 2019 9:57AM
    1000+ CP
    PC/EU Ravenwatch Daggerfall Covenant

    Give me my wings back!
  • BronSolo22
    BronSolo22
    Soul Shriven
    Heck yes my dude. You rock. I'm actually pretty stoked about these changes! Time to level the playing field a bit, while giving each race a unique feel!
  • Silver_Strider
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    susmitds wrote: »

    Tanking racials don't matter. If they did Nord wouldn't have been bottom tier in literally everything for years, being completely outstripped by every other race in practically everything.

    Let's take your example and flip it for DPS or Healing; Would you perform worse for picking Nord instead of Khajiit. The answer is a big fat YES.

    Let me clear things out things out a bit.

    Lets see the effect of a good tanking race on average parses with Warhorn.

    Nord Ultimate gen passive = 0.5
    Ultimate from replacing Resist sets with Bloodspawn = 1.2 Avg

    Khajiit Tank ultigen - 3.6 give or take (Taking base regen and Minor Heroism with high uptime into account)
    Nord Tank ultigen - 3.6+0.5+1.2 = 5.3

    Khajiit Major Force Uptime per 10 minutes - 600/(250/3.6) * 9.5 = 82 secs approx
    Nord Major Force Uptime per 10 minutes - 600/(250/5.3) * 9.5 = 120 secs approx

    Khajiit Stat Boost Uptime per 10 minutes - 600/(250/3.6) * 30 = 260 secs approx
    Nord Stat Boost Uptime per 10 minutes - 600/(250/5.3) * 30 = 381 secs approx

    Major Force = 10% boost to DPS approx on average
    Stat Boost = 2%-5% boost to DPS approx on average = 3.5%

    Let's consider 8 DPS doing 60K DPS without Warhorn.
    Total unboosted DPS = 480k

    Khajiit Tank DPS Boost = 480000*0.1*82/600+480000*0.035*260/600 = 13840
    Nord Tank DPS Boost = 480000*0.1*120/600+480000*0.035*381/600 = 20268

    That's 6.5K more DPS that a single Nord can indirectly add to a group. The value may change either lesser or greater, but it will always be there.

    Which do you think is more valuable, 1K direct DPS or 6.5K indirect DPS to group along with sustain benefits of higher resource reserve uptime?

    Also considering, BiS tanks are DKs, the ultimate gen also converts to higher sustain.

    Sure, tanking cannot be objectively compared, but it can always be subjectively compared.

    This is in the absolute best case scenario in which you keep the Ultimate passive on CD, which is NOT realistically possible in some cases since bosses have periods in which they won't attack you, either because they're targetting someone else for a mechanic, they're teleporting around the stage, etc. It's also highly weighted in the Nords favor since you're using taking into consideration Bloodspawn on the Nord and not the Khajiit, despite the fact that you can reach resistance cap on a Khajiit without a resistance set at all, which begs the question of what's the real value of Nords resistance passive in practice?
    Edited by Silver_Strider on January 25, 2019 6:00PM
    Argonian forever
  • susmitds
    susmitds
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    susmitds wrote: »

    Tanking racials don't matter. If they did Nord wouldn't have been bottom tier in literally everything for years, being completely outstripped by every other race in practically everything.

    Let's take your example and flip it for DPS or Healing; Would you perform worse for picking Nord instead of Khajiit. The answer is a big fat YES.

    Let me clear things out things out a bit.

    Lets see the effect of a good tanking race on average parses with Warhorn.

    Nord Ultimate gen passive = 0.5
    Ultimate from replacing Resist sets with Bloodspawn = 1.2 Avg

    Khajiit Tank ultigen - 3.6 give or take (Taking base regen and Minor Heroism with high uptime into account)
    Nord Tank ultigen - 3.6+0.5+1.2 = 5.3

    Khajiit Major Force Uptime per 10 minutes - 600/(250/3.6) * 9.5 = 82 secs approx
    Nord Major Force Uptime per 10 minutes - 600/(250/5.3) * 9.5 = 120 secs approx

    Khajiit Stat Boost Uptime per 10 minutes - 600/(250/3.6) * 30 = 260 secs approx
    Nord Stat Boost Uptime per 10 minutes - 600/(250/5.3) * 30 = 381 secs approx

    Major Force = 10% boost to DPS approx on average
    Stat Boost = 2%-5% boost to DPS approx on average = 3.5%

    Let's consider 8 DPS doing 60K DPS without Warhorn.
    Total unboosted DPS = 480k

    Khajiit Tank DPS Boost = 480000*0.1*82/600+480000*0.035*260/600 = 13840
    Nord Tank DPS Boost = 480000*0.1*120/600+480000*0.035*381/600 = 20268

    That's 6.5K more DPS that a single Nord can indirectly add to a group. The value may change either lesser or greater, but it will always be there.

    Which do you think is more valuable, 1K direct DPS or 6.5K indirect DPS to group along with sustain benefits of higher resource reserve uptime?

    Also considering, BiS tanks are DKs, the ultimate gen also converts to higher sustain.

    Sure, tanking cannot be objectively compared, but it can always be subjectively compared.

    This is in the absolute best case scenario in which you keep the Ultimate passive on CD, which is NOT realistically possible in some cases since bosses have periods in which they won't attack you, either because they're targetting someone else for a mechanic, they're teleporting around the stage, etc. It's also highly weighted in the Nords favor since you're using taking into consideration Bloodspawn on the Nord and not the Khajiit, despite the fact that you can reach resistance cap on a Khajiit without a resistance set at all, which begs the question of what's the real value of Nords resistance passive in practice?

    Not actually the absolute best case. I basically showcased Bloodspawn to showcase the value of the resist. You can use many things instead, Earthgore for healing, Sentinel of Rkugamz(which got buffed) for group stamina sustain etc. You can reach it with CP for the Khajiit if you are not using sets, so if we convert the value of the Nord passive to CP, it takes 50 CP to hit 3960 resists. That is 50 CP, you can spend somewhere else on a Nord.
  • Malamar1229
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    Stupid question but this was done on PTS, not live, right?
  • susmitds
    susmitds
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    Stupid question but this was done on PTS, not live, right?

    Yeah.
  • alainjbrennanb16_ESO
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    going by these test having no raical passives and having them is 2-3k dps so what is the point in having a race
    Main character dk - Vanikifar whitestrike
  • MLGProPlayer
    MLGProPlayer
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    going by these test having no raical passives and having them is 2-3k dps so what is the point in having a race

    2-3k DPS is a lot.
  • alainjbrennanb16_ESO
    alainjbrennanb16_ESO
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    going by these test having no raical passives and having them is 2-3k dps so what is the point in having a race

    2-3k DPS is a lot.

    my point is no racial passives should not be that close, having none should be a big difference, all races could/ should be close but having none should be a bigger difference
    Main character dk - Vanikifar whitestrike
  • Tandor
    Tandor
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    A very interesting analysis for raids, thanks. Of course, before dismissing some races as useless and serving no purpose in the game we should remember that this is only about raiding and that there are many other reasons and purposes behind race selection. Races shouldn't simply be balanced for one extremely minority interest but should have their own appeal across the game as a whole.

    In any event, the feedback on the current racial passive changes comes across as very much more positive than might have been expected given both the build up to these changes and the vastly greater amount of "QQing" over past balancing changes.
  • FineFeathered
    FineFeathered
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    There's one glaring thing missing in this otherwise excellent demonstration:

    It does not show how each race is able to deal with incoming damage. The passives are as often about resistance as they are about power and sustain. Parsing does not show that. So, with incoming damage, ability to live through attacks of certain kinds, that isn't measured here, and would reallyneed to be seen in a pvp context.

    Besides, my Magplar Breton, one of the advantages she has now is that if she takes a hit of mag damage while healing, she now shrugs a good portion of that off. She won't with this changes (I put my stat changes in a post on the main feedback thread). Bretons receive a major nerf to Magicka Resistance, the one thing they are supposed to have going for them.

    Sadly, parse dummies dont' attack. Bosses and other players do, so this is a major issue. I wish there was a way to show that?
  • Bevik
    Bevik
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    I have to say they have to give free ANY RACE change tickets after each of our chars seriously.
  • Monte_Cristo
    Monte_Cristo
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    Hmm, looking at the numbers, my toons are :10, 7, 1, 6, 5, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 5, 3, 9, 10, 7. Boy, I feel sorry for Angel and Melissa, though it looks like I should use Bean'sidhe more than I do.
    Wonder where the necromancer will fit in?
  • Scylos
    Scylos
    Why are you neglecting imperial race ?
    Edited by Scylos on January 30, 2019 7:02PM
  • zaria
    zaria
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    Scylos wrote: »
    No love for Imperials eh ?
    Imperials is a bit like Argonians, tanky but can do damage and lack the Argonian role as healers.
    2K stamina or magic depending on that is higher is one option and an unique racial.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • zaria
    zaria
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    going by these test having no raical passives and having them is 2-3k dps so what is the point in having a race

    2-3k DPS is a lot.

    my point is no racial passives should not be that close, having none should be a big difference, all races could/ should be close but having none should be a bigger difference
    Note that players starting the game get no warning that they have an trash build.
    The racial description has no warnings, its pretty much like the one in Skyrim :)

    You want to play an elf and Bosmer is cutest and you want to focus being an healer, you almost selected Altmer but ended on Bosmer :(
    Add an community who take the racials way out of proportions. its maximum 10% dps today.
    https://www.deviantart.com/isriana/art/TESO-Respect-Your-Healers-696152788
    This exist for an reason.
    Obliviously stuff like that will impact the bottom line over time.
    Well its pretty easy to solve.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • susmitds
    susmitds
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    zaria wrote: »
    going by these test having no raical passives and having them is 2-3k dps so what is the point in having a race

    2-3k DPS is a lot.

    my point is no racial passives should not be that close, having none should be a big difference, all races could/ should be close but having none should be a bigger difference
    Note that players starting the game get no warning that they have an trash build.
    The racial description has no warnings, its pretty much like the one in Skyrim :)

    You want to play an elf and Bosmer is cutest and you want to focus being an healer, you almost selected Altmer but ended on Bosmer :(
    Add an community who take the racials way out of proportions. its maximum 10% dps today.
    https://www.deviantart.com/isriana/art/TESO-Respect-Your-Healers-696152788
    This exist for an reason.
    Obliviously stuff like that will impact the bottom line over time.
    Well its pretty easy to solve.

    People don't even agree on what they want. There is no way for ZOS to please everybody.
  • LightMaster7
    LightMaster7
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    Look man these sets of tests only show the optimized for races that play their OPTIMIZED class, if they received a boost for a specific passive in either stamina or magicka.

    For example, comparing Redguard StamSorc but not a Redguard MagSorc. There will be a BIG difference in dps between a StamSorc vs a MagSorc compared to other races.

    So these so called tests are only showing for races playing classes they are being optimized for.
  • Ajax_22
    Ajax_22
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    Look man these sets of tests only show the optimized for races that play their OPTIMIZED class, if they received a boost for a specific passive in either stamina or magicka.

    For example, comparing Redguard StamSorc but not a Redguard MagSorc. There will be a BIG difference in dps between a StamSorc vs a MagSorc compared to other races.

    So these so called tests are only showing for races playing classes they are being optimized for.

    That's the point. If you're playing an unoptimized build, a Redguard MagSorc for example. Then these results don't matter for you anyway since you obviously don't care about what the optimal race for each class is. This testing took hours to do. Adding obviously not optimized combinations would add additional hours of testing for no benefit.
  • nsmurfer
    nsmurfer
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    Look man these sets of tests only show the optimized for races that play their OPTIMIZED class, if they received a boost for a specific passive in either stamina or magicka.

    For example, comparing Redguard StamSorc but not a Redguard MagSorc. There will be a BIG difference in dps between a StamSorc vs a MagSorc compared to other races.

    So these so called tests are only showing for races playing classes they are being optimized for.

    @LightMaster7 You do realize there is a no racial test too?
  • Katahdin
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    Thanks for your time and effort on this @susmitds
    Beta tester November 2013
  • JeibuKul
    JeibuKul
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    Awesome information @susmitds

    A little sad to see three races that are basically good at nothing, and then you have dunmer which are viable as pretty much everything. I don't feel like these race changes did what ZOS was claiming. It didn't really upset the meta, nor did it make it so all the races were more viable.

    If anything it just breaks down like this, at least according to this data.
    Stamina Character? Redguard, Orc, Bosmer
    Magicka Character? Breton, Altmer
    Can do it all? Khajit, Dunmer
    Can't do it? Imperial, Argonian, Nord


    If this hold remotely true, ZOS basically just killed off three races.
  • susmitds
    susmitds
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    JeibuKul wrote: »
    Awesome information @susmitds

    A little sad to see three races that are basically good at nothing, and then you have dunmer which are viable as pretty much everything. I don't feel like these race changes did what ZOS was claiming. It didn't really upset the meta, nor did it make it so all the races were more viable.

    If anything it just breaks down like this, at least according to this data.
    Stamina Character? Redguard, Orc, Bosmer
    Magicka Character? Breton, Altmer
    Can do it all? Khajit, Dunmer
    Can't do it? Imperial, Argonian, Nord


    If this hold remotely true, ZOS basically just killed off three races.

    @JeibuKul
    Apart from Imperial, which I also think to be lacking, the other two are beastly Tank races. Give that the DPS is 1k close to BiS, it is not exactly much, IMO and are fairly balanced out by the tanky passives, which also give them upperhand over squishy races in PvP.
  • winterbornb14_ESO
    winterbornb14_ESO
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    Imperial Health Tank (Templar)................Dead.

    From a % based passive to just 2k is a Role killer period!

    Are they changing all the % bonuses on gear and skill? Nope just Nerfing Races atm.......give em time and they will Nerf the rest.

  • Druid40
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    Do NOT touch my Dwemer passives or I am leaving the game with a very wordy goodbye topic in 'General Discussion'.
  • zaria
    zaria
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    Druid40 wrote: »
    Do NOT touch my Dwemer passives or I am leaving the game with a very wordy goodbye topic in 'General Discussion'.
    Very curious how you managed to get Dwemer racial passives :wink:

    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • MLGProPlayer
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    @Gilliamtherogue @KenaPKK @Joy_Division

    I'm not sure you guys have seen this considering your comments in the latest class rep meeting (panning to nerf Altmer because you think they are too strong). Please have a look at this data before you make any silly changes.

    More testing (video): https://youtube.com/watch?v=c-HGXW_B7EE
    Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 3, 2019 9:52PM
  • validifyedneb18_ESO
    validifyedneb18_ESO
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    I appreciate the work, but you need to take a course in data visualisation or something because those graphs are baaaad.
    EU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
    NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade
  • md3788
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    Question about lightning back bar: Couldn't that introduce some RNG minor vulnerability and/or off-balance which would throw off your results?
    vFG1 HM
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