Raid/Buffed DPS Comparison of each RACE by Class [Tests, Graphs, Interpretation and Final Score]

susmitds

Altaryan wrote: »

StamDK Spammable - Shrouded Daggers

The thing is... this spammable is very hard to sustain on a DK. However, using claw as spammable can bring a very good ST DPS and allows to not use a stamina regen enchant at all on a 6M dummy if provided with orbs for races with lower sustain (Orcs and Dunmer).

I wanted to make the tests more inclusive using a weapon spammable to synergize with Orc and Redguard as I already tested with a class spammable on Stamblade. Also, with group sustain support, we wanted to strain sustain to its limit, so we can retrofit the data to other classes, between stamNB high sustain and stamDK non-DoT spam sustain.

PardusMelas

so whiches best for templar healer breton or argonian atm?

susmitds

PardusMelas wrote: »

so whiches best for templar healer breton or argonian atm?

Going by raw stats, Breton. Nord is actually an excellent choice as well, healers can do great with any racial passive bonus and higher warhorn uptime might just make them BiS.

TheDarkShadow

Thank you very much. The number seem very balance even if you don't put point any racial passive. If the difference is 2-3k at 60k then the average player who pull 30-40k won't even notice.

Silver_Strider

I read all this and all I see is Argonian needs a buff

Not undermining the work since its great work but god can we get a small buff because we're just sort of there right now.

IronWooshu

RIP Nord, Imperial and Argonian absolutely excellent in nothing.

Why even have these races?

---

I've been messing with Nord Warden which is my main on live on the PTS hoping that his ultimate passive would let my Nord Warden have crazy uptime on ultimates.

The Nord race is nothing special and is kinda just there like on live. I really hope they change Nords ultimate passive to gain while in combat but my tests pretty much confirm what you said.

Meh race but I've been Nord forever and I cant race change him. The character just wouldn't feel the same if I did.

AlboMalefica

This is simply the best forum post I’ve read in a long time, honestly thank you

MLGProPlayer

nsmurfer wrote: »

Great stuff.

Though I don't understand one thing. Why are the Khajiit's parses all over the place?

I mean, back to back parses dropped straight from 64k to 58k in one instance.

Crit damage is based on RNG

MLGProPlayer

IronWooshu wrote: »

RIP Nord, Imperial and Argonian absolutely excellent in nothing.

Why even have these races?

---

I've been messing with Nord Warden which is my main on live on the PTS hoping that his ultimate passive would let my Nord Warden have crazy uptime on ultimates.

The Nord race is nothing special and is kinda just there like on live. I really hope they change Nords ultimate passive to gain while in combat but my tests pretty much confirm what you said.

Meh race but I've been Nord forever and I cant race change him. The character just wouldn't feel the same if I did.

Nord is the BiS tank race this patch.

MLGProPlayer

XxCaLxX wrote: »

basically anyone that bought the imperial upgrade wasted money.

I actually only bought the upgrade for the white horse.

IronWooshu

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

RIP Nord, Imperial and Argonian absolutely excellent in nothing.

Why even have these races?

---

I've been messing with Nord Warden which is my main on live on the PTS hoping that his ultimate passive would let my Nord Warden have crazy uptime on ultimates.

The Nord race is nothing special and is kinda just there like on live. I really hope they change Nords ultimate passive to gain while in combat but my tests pretty much confirm what you said.

Meh race but I've been Nord forever and I cant race change him. The character just wouldn't feel the same if I did.

Nord is the BiS tank race this patch.

from what others are saying on PTS that still remains to be seen, however on PTS with my Nord Warden I can wear medium in PVP and feel tanky with the resist passives.

Robo_Hobo

Awesome, thanks for putting all of the data together, it's very interesting to see.

kadar

This is probably the most relevant testing I've seen so far as far as the race changes go. Tbh, I gotta give ZOS a hand-- to balance the mag and stam dps races to within those margins is a tricky task.

merpins

Playing a DPS magplar. My build uses elemental weapon from the psijic skill line as its main single-target attack ability. Right now my DPS is amazing and sustain is good, but come the update I'm going to need to change my race (dark elf at the moment). For pure damage, should I change to khajiit, altmer, or breton?

As it sits right now, my sustain is fine. However my Spell Crit is at 46% (with the thief stone). My armor is all infused for this reason, however if I went khajiit I could change my equipment to divines instead along with the apprentice instead of the thief stone.

nud3_voxel

The variance for kajiit seems a bit high. I understand random crit RNG, but 6k difference seems too high. Might be more of a DPS sandbagging his rotation or the lag on the PTS no?

BahometZ

Great post. Thanks for crunching those numbers into line. The community should be grateful.

One thing I will say is that it's frustrating to see people think this should shut people up, as if all we care about is maths.

I've gone into detail elsewhere about flavour and role play, and that statistics don't tell the whole picture. The fact is, 95% of these changes are going ahead. PTS might lead to some finessing, but not much.

For most people, DPS of 50k+ is a pipedream, and a race change won't fix it (Rotation is the key). Many people choose their character for lore and flavour reasons, so these changes won't really make a difference to them. It's really only going to affect a subset of people who like a bit of everything, lore, endgame performance, roleplay, character style, etc.

Personally, I have 11 characters all carefully selected for a combination of looks, lore, performance and synergy of race/class. I care about all of them. Except for a mule I'll be deleting shortly. The passive changes still won't really change them that much performance wise (except a dunmer magdk), so I'm not bothered by that for the most part. However I do find some of the changes a bit dull and flavourless (e.g. replacing elemental damage with flat spell damage).

I am disappointed in how every aspect of Argonians have been nerfed, I'm not talking about resourcefulness, that was long overdue, but overall their utility has dropped severely, and as a healer I'm not sure why you'd pick them. They'll still be very useful in PvP, but in PvE I think I'd rather have a Breton, Altmer or Dunmer, and they can double up as a very effective DPS. A lot of races can look forward to the same effectiveness as before or an improvement. Argonians are being kicked down, and I feel it's too far.

What I am most worried about is that if they're changing racial passives now, and people change race in response, how long till they change them again? What if something isn't revealed as broken until several months down the line, when a particular combination of gear/race/class/skill becomes problematic enough to necessitate a re-balance? One thing is for sure, they better get this right, or there'll be a lot of pissed off people demanding race-change tokens.

rexagamemnon

@zos i rarely complain on this forum, but i am upset to see how under performing imperials and nords are doing now. Amd the passives for Imperials are wrong as far as the lore is concerned, which is why i disagree with the changes to racial passives. At first i was excited to hear about racial passive updates but now, this is more of a headache than anything

Wing

why are people complaining that the "tank" race do less damage. . .that's kind of the point. I agree that imperial needs something more unique or red diamond buffed but Nord is VERY strong this patch.

BahometZ

Wing wrote: »

why are people complaining that the "tank" race do less damage. . .that's kind of the point. I agree that imperial needs something more unique or red diamond buffed but Nord is VERY strong this patch.

Yeah, Imperial, Nord and Argonian are quintessential support races, yet you can still run them as DPS if you want. This situation hasn't changed, and now people are suddenly up in arms?

nsmurfer

@nud3_voxel

nud3_voxel wrote: »

The variance for kajiit seems a bit high. I understand random crit RNG, but 6k difference seems too high. Might be more of a DPS sandbagging his rotation or the lag on the PTS no?

I wondered the same. However, in the OP, he mentioned there was 4 different DDs, one for each role. And all of them got the same issue with Khajiit. I doubt it would be some testing error.

susmitds wrote: »

nsmurfer wrote: »

Great stuff.

Though I don't understand one thing. Why are the Khajiit's parses all over the place?

I mean, back to back parses dropped straight from 64k to 58k in one instance.

One cause is low sustain. Khajiit sustain is plain bad.
This is compounded by the fact that Khajiit's primary source of damage is critical hits, which is RNG based. If you are unlucky, then your hard hitting abilities may not crit, decreasing DPS. Sometimes, you can end up with the same percentage of critical hits as other races. When that happens, you are basically weaker than Imperial or Argonian, as Khajiit lacks raw stats. This decreases your DPS a lot, which also means the fight goes on longer. This in turn, further pressures your non-existent sustain. Heavy Attacks further destroy your DPS.

The inverse can also happen, though rarer, in which all your hard hitters crit and the fight is over, before it can pressure your sustain. This results in very high parses.

He mentioned a specific reoccurring scenario.

xaraan

It's a shame that every race can't look like Khajiit and Dunmer do.

Give every race unique little ways to help them in different roles without giving players the exact same buffs for any race and still allowing them to perform well.

My only issue is again with the support races. Passives matter the least there, so I wish they were just a touch higher in DD department. They can't be too high there b/c of pvp balance, but shouldn't be made to feel useless in a damage role.

I know one can argue they aren't "useless", but you don't find an end game raider in a top guild bringing one of those races to trials and if you do, 1. I love you and 2. I know you are giving up a solid boost to your damage for your racial love.

IronWooshu

Wing wrote: »

why are people complaining that the "tank" race do less damage. . .that's kind of the point. I agree that imperial needs something more unique or red diamond buffed but Nord is VERY strong this patch.

I would love to see your numbers on PTS with testing of the Nord....

I am guessing you are talking about PVP... what about PVE? All they need to do is change the damn ulti gen passive to in combat rather than take damage and it opens up the class in PVE for more than just a tank.

xaraan

Wing wrote: »

why are people complaining that the "tank" race do less damage. . .that's kind of the point. I agree that imperial needs something more unique or red diamond buffed but Nord is VERY strong this patch.

Because we want to do more than just tank on those races (especially as tanking has become less and less enjoyable the last two years of patch nerfs). And also b/c passives for support matter less than DPS passives b/c the important thing isn't that you "hit whatever DPS numbers" to get into a run, or always hit top of DPS in groups and all the crap DPS talk about. All that matters is that you get the job done. Passives can help you do that of course, but the simple fact is they just aren't as important in the 'meta'.

I have seen more race variety in top end-game tanks (I tank with a khajiit and orc currently on my team - I'm the only Argonian) than I see in end-game DPS. Sure, everyone picks whatever a streamer says is meta, so it will make people choose one of those races for their tank more often than not, but in the end, it matters much less.

I think players of Argonians, Nord and Imperials were hoping for a little better DD performance. Not expecting equal to races that don't get as many support passives, but something that would bump up our numbers on the charts there by 1 or two points.

Edit: looking at his summary of the races, I'd say making them good enough to be "decent" at any DD role, but not enough to be excellent in any would be very fair. Then let the other races go up into the excellent, great and good categories. Asking for decent isn't asking for too much IMO.

TheDarkShadow

In the OP's test he have a specific test with NO RACIAL, and it only come shorter than other "optimal" races 2k dps IN 60k PARSE! That's mean even if you pick redguard for magicka DPS you only shorter 2k dps. And in lower parse like 30-40k it barely make any difference.

Lord_Eomer

Highly doubt especially on Altmers not being excellent, you are calling Breton excellent which lack 258 spell damage on theory so buffed 258 spell damage in group not performing even excellent?

Something wrong with you results.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Great stuff op. Thank you.


Also, I love how everyone with saying an extra .25 ulti a second, best case, will make nords so much better tanks and healers. My ulti regen on my tank is already ~4.5 second, so a warhorn every 55 seconds, adding .5 to that is 50 seconds. People are losing their minds over 5 seconds.

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Highly doubt especially on Altmers not being excellent, you are calling Breton excellent which lack 258 spell damage on theory so buffed 258 spell damage in group not performing even excellent?

Something wrong with you results.

Everything looks great, maybe test for yourself and post your results?

nsmurfer

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Highly doubt especially on Altmers not being excellent, you are calling Breton excellent which lack 258 spell damage on theory so buffed 258 spell damage in group not performing even excellent?

Something wrong with you results.

Infused Berserker enchantment+100 mag recovery+8% cost reduction > 200 conditional regen+Infused Absorb Stamina.

He gave breton 10 and altmer 9 which is virtually the same in practice.

ElliottXO

Hold your horses everyone.

Nord, Imperial and Argonian are not competing amongst DD, so in this regard they also don't need a buff.

You can't have tanking advantages and competitive DD roles at the same time.

IronWooshu

ElliottXO wrote: »

Hold your horses everyone.

Nord, Imperial and Argonian are not competing amongst DD, so in this regard they also don't need a buff.

You can't have tanking advantages and competitive DD roles at the same time.

The best end game tank play a Khajiit... Yes you read that right... a Khajiit... therefore tanking passives mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things.

"tanking advantages", good one.

Silver_Strider

BahometZ wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

why are people complaining that the "tank" race do less damage. . .that's kind of the point. I agree that imperial needs something more unique or red diamond buffed but Nord is VERY strong this patch.

Yeah, Imperial, Nord and Argonian are quintessential support races, yet you can still run them as DPS if you want. This situation hasn't changed, and now people are suddenly up in arms?

So it's fine for a Healer race to also be a DPS race but NOT fine for a Tank Race to be a DPS race, despite the fact that both Imperial and Orc were solid DPS and Tank races prior to these changes? Also, people have been complaining about Nords for YEARS so to say that people are only now complaining is false as well.