All races are not meant to perform DD roles in the best degree. Still the difference is very limited to around 1-2k, considering you are hitting great numbers. If tanky races had DPS in range of say 500 of the BiS races, nobody would bother running anything else.
Apart from a few things, this is as close as it gets to a balanced racial stability.
Thorstienn wrote: »Great job.
Was wondering what made Breton not excellent for Templar? I mean sustain is always good, and would think they would have the largest Mag pool for execute phase, this a larger jesus beam.
Lord_Dexter wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Lord_Dexter wrote: »Highly doubt especially on Altmers not being excellent, you are calling Breton excellent which lack 258 spell damage on theory so buffed 258 spell damage in group not performing even excellent?
Something wrong with you results.
Breton use a spell damage enchant, which gives them like 450 spell damage. They have so much sustain that they don't need a magicka absorb enchant, unlike Altmer, who do.
450 SD > 258 SD
Do you think in group you need recovery or restore magicka enchantment? Highly doubt that
All races are not meant to perform DD roles in the best degree. Still the difference is very limited to around 1-2k, considering you are hitting great numbers. If tanky races had DPS in range of say 500 of the BiS races, nobody would bother running anything else.
Apart from a few things, this is as close as it gets to a balanced racial stability.
I suppose your definition of "balance" differs than mine. All races and classes have methods of tanking, healing, and damaging. With that being said, this is an MMO and min/max is real - my point is that its disingenuous to imply that this "balanced" when it's only balanced for the "IMO" races when it comes to DPS.
why are people complaining that the "tank" race do less damage. . .that's kind of the point. I agree that imperial needs something more unique or red diamond buffed but Nord is VERY strong this patch.
Silver_Strider wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »why are people complaining that the "tank" race do less damage. . .that's kind of the point. I agree that imperial needs something more unique or red diamond buffed but Nord is VERY strong this patch.
Yeah, Imperial, Nord and Argonian are quintessential support races, yet you can still run them as DPS if you want. This situation hasn't changed, and now people are suddenly up in arms?
So it's fine for a Healer race to also be a DPS race but NOT fine for a Tank Race to be a DPS race, despite the fact that both Imperial and Orc were solid DPS and Tank races prior to these changes? Also, people have been complaining about Nords for YEARS so to say that people are only now complaining is false as well.
Non racial test data is included in the metrics. As a base line for (non) dps affinity, the effective difference is marginal - - you can extrapolate from that, viability is now more subjective than ever with the changes proposed. Disadvantaged races, are not complete bottom feeders.
I was 'up in arms' about these modifications, but you can't argue the numbers and visualisations in OP. I suggest letting it sink in... ZOS has damn near achieved the impossible here. Any non dps race, with adequate load out and rotation is level pegged enough for dps role.
Mind... Blown...
Even so, Imperials, Argonian and Nords are getting pretty much shafted because they're supposed Tank Races whereas Orc, which was a Tank race, got a full on DPS redesign. Would adding a little love for them be that huge of a thing to ask for, especially Imperials and Argonian who probably got the short end of the stick if we're being totally honest. Imperial wasn't top tier in anything before these changes but were still a decent Stamina DPS race due to their large stat pools, now they're dead last. Argonians are just sort of there now since they don't excel in anything and their overall performance has dropped across the board.
Personally, I'd lower Imperials Stamina to 1000 with a 1000 Magic buff alongside it and change up Red Diamond to be a Tri-Stat restore effect upon activating a weapon ability with a CD instead of the % based chance Heal only. Nords could get a small Stamina restore for taking damage and split Resourceful up to 500 Magic/Stamina with an extra 100 Spell/Weapon damage added to the Life Mender Passive for Argonians.
I mean, it would have to be tested ofc but I don't think those small adjustments would break the balance on any of those races but it would give them a slight bump to their overall performance, which is a bit lacking ATM.
Pyr0xyrecuprotite wrote: »@susmitds
Can you please update your original post to clarify if the testing was done on live (current/old racial passives) or PTS (new racial passives)? Thanks.
IronWooshu wrote: »You know what's going to happen, Nords are going to be pushed into healers for warhorn while Redguards become the defacto #1 tank race due to that unbelievable sustain which will allow them to essentially permablock especially when their skill cost is reduced by so much.Silver_Strider wrote: »
Tanking racials don't matter. If they did Nord wouldn't have been bottom tier in literally everything for years, being completely outstripped by every other race in practically everything.
Let's take your example and flip it for DPS or Healing; Would you perform worse for picking Nord instead of Khajiit. The answer is a big fat YES.
Let me clear things out things out a bit.
Lets see the effect of a good tanking race on average parses with Warhorn.
Nord Ultimate gen passive = 0.5
Ultimate from replacing Resist sets with Bloodspawn = 1.2 Avg
Khajiit Tank ultigen - 3.6 give or take (Taking base regen and Minor Heroism with high uptime into account)
Nord Tank ultigen - 3.6+0.5+1.2 = 5.3
Khajiit Major Force Uptime per 10 minutes - 600/(250/3.6) * 9.5 = 82 secs approx
Nord Major Force Uptime per 10 minutes - 600/(250/5.3) * 9.5 = 120 secs approx
Khajiit Stat Boost Uptime per 10 minutes - 600/(250/3.6) * 30 = 260 secs approx
Nord Stat Boost Uptime per 10 minutes - 600/(250/5.3) * 30 = 381 secs approx
Major Force = 10% boost to DPS approx on average
Stat Boost = 2%-5% boost to DPS approx on average = 3.5%
Let's consider 8 DPS doing 60K DPS without Warhorn.
Total unboosted DPS = 480k
Khajiit Tank DPS Boost = 480000*0.1*82/600+480000*0.035*260/600 = 13840
Nord Tank DPS Boost = 480000*0.1*120/600+480000*0.035*381/600 = 20268
That's 6.5K more DPS that a single Nord can indirectly add to a group. The value may change either lesser or greater, but it will always be there.
Which do you think is more valuable, 1K direct DPS or 6.5K indirect DPS to group along with sustain benefits of higher resource reserve uptime?
Also considering, BiS tanks are DKs, the ultimate gen also converts to higher sustain.
Sure, tanking cannot be objectively compared, but it can always be subjectively compared.
Asides the enviable of what I explained that ultimate regen is a joke being based off taking damage rather than just being in combat. If they made it when in combat it would work better for DPS and Healing roles especially the latter since we all know where Nords are gonna be pidgeon holed into.
This BiS tank talk is not the case when Redguard is way better.
Yes, I can see Redguard becoming a great Tanking race. However, I would say Nord are still better than with sustain support, Nord DKs can permablock, especially as now they will get to use Magicka to block on back bar. Nords are the only race that affect group DPS directly. Everything else can be made with skill. Every single Nord in the group, bring higher Major Force uptime. I know, certain groups will sqeeze every last DPS out of the group.
All races are not meant to perform DD roles in the best degree. Still the difference is very limited to around 1-2k, considering you are hitting great numbers. If tanky races had DPS in range of say 500 of the BiS races, nobody would bother running anything else.
Apart from a few things, this is as close as it gets to a balanced racial stability.
I suppose your definition of "balance" differs than mine. All races and classes have methods of tanking, healing, and damaging. With that being said, this is an MMO and min/max is real - my point is that its disingenuous to imply that this "balanced" when it's only balanced for the "IMO" races when it comes to DPS.
I understand your point. But you have to understand that you need every race needs to be equally good in every role. Like in real life scenarios, perfect balances is not possible. As tanking and healing is subjective and DD is objective, you want to leave the support roles to some races, leave DPS to the rest and make overall differences less significant. Which, IMO, ZOS has done a great job of doing. An Argonian for e.g. is only 1K apart from BiS rather than say 5-6k on live.
So is the lynch mob going to calm down now, or are they just going to keep screaming bloody murder?
That 1k difference will drive everyone to roll the better race. That is how MMO's have always worked, its about min/maxing. It's a little irritating that that they've nerfed some races for others, leaving those races in the dust. The whole philosophy of "play the game how you like" is total nonsense. Like you said, I simply cannot play an argonian mDPS and compete with a high elf mDPS, apparently argonians are not the "DPS race". This game was only "balanced" around the races ZOS felt were DPS races, while other ones are completely left in the dust for what - healing? tanking? Is that really the only role argonians, nords, and imperials are supposed to play? Especially after the nerfs, is nonsense.
Edit: Fixed typo
CleymenZero wrote: »This is great data and I admit that the changes are great. The fact that, if you want to adjust to meta, it is tied to real world money is freaking annoying.
I wouldn't complain if they had, let's say, à token pack of 6 for 6k or they included 5-6 token with the prepurchase of Elsweyr but I'm annoyed but the monetary implications.
I know they're here to make money but the changes to the meta I've seen (playing since Morrowind) , as small as they were, never implicated real world money. This is different. Knowing the changes would happen, I would've chosen different races for almost all of my 14 toons. I had a Breton magsorc that I used for pvp. Ended up race-changing for argonian because sustain is king in pvp. Well Breton looks like it will have better sustain and damage so I wouldn't have bothered switching.
I have a Dunmer magwarden, with that fire damage and double fire staves, my damage was really good. It is still going to perform very well but it would perform better being another race. They were chosen because they had an edge, not because I liked Dunmers.
I don't know, I love the changes and love to see that it is way more balanced now as far as races go. I'm just annoyed because I wouldn't have picked this race for this class and this other race for this other class and if I want to change well, spit out the cash.
On the magblade Highest dps is Breton with 60798 down to Dunmer on 60187 this is an 611 difference or 1.00%
All races are not meant to perform DD roles in the best degree. Still the difference is very limited to around 1-2k, considering you are hitting great numbers. If tanky races had DPS in range of say 500 of the BiS races, nobody would bother running anything else.
Apart from a few things, this is as close as it gets to a balanced racial stability.
I suppose your definition of "balance" differs than mine. All races and classes have methods of tanking, healing, and damaging. With that being said, this is an MMO and min/max is real - my point is that its disingenuous to imply that this "balanced" when it's only balanced for the "IMO" races when it comes to DPS.
I understand your point. But you have to understand that you need every race needs to be equally good in every role. Like in real life scenarios, perfect balances is not possible. As tanking and healing is subjective and DD is objective, you want to leave the support roles to some races, leave DPS to the rest and make overall differences less significant. Which, IMO, ZOS has done a great job of doing. An Argonian for e.g. is only 1K apart from BiS rather than say 5-6k on live.
That 1k difference will drive everyone to roll the better race. That is how MMO's have always worked, its about min/maxing. It's a little irritating that that they've nerfed some races for others, leaving those races in the dust. The whole philosophy of "play the game how you like" is total nonsense. Like you said, I simply cannot play an argonian mDPS and compete with a high elf mDPS, apparently argonians are not the "DPS race". This game is only balanced around the races ZOS felt were DPS races, while other ones are completely left in the dust for what - healing? tanking? Is that really the only role argonians, nords, and imperials are supposed to play? Especially after the nerfs, is nonsense.
This, now adjust for the error in the parses.Seraphayel wrote: »CleymenZero wrote: »This is great data and I admit that the changes are great. The fact that, if you want to adjust to meta, it is tied to real world money is freaking annoying.
I wouldn't complain if they had, let's say, à token pack of 6 for 6k or they included 5-6 token with the prepurchase of Elsweyr but I'm annoyed but the monetary implications.
I know they're here to make money but the changes to the meta I've seen (playing since Morrowind) , as small as they were, never implicated real world money. This is different. Knowing the changes would happen, I would've chosen different races for almost all of my 14 toons. I had a Breton magsorc that I used for pvp. Ended up race-changing for argonian because sustain is king in pvp. Well Breton looks like it will have better sustain and damage so I wouldn't have bothered switching.
I have a Dunmer magwarden, with that fire damage and double fire staves, my damage was really good. It is still going to perform very well but it would perform better being another race. They were chosen because they had an edge, not because I liked Dunmers.
I don't know, I love the changes and love to see that it is way more balanced now as far as races go. I'm just annoyed because I wouldn't have picked this race for this class and this other race for this other class and if I want to change well, spit out the cash.
To adjust to meta? Can you please name one example where you would change your recent meta race to the new meta race in the upcoming update?
If you played Altmer Magicka you're still absolutely viable after the changes. Same goes for Breton and Dunmer and even Argonian. The only difference is that Khajiit makes a great Magicka race, too. This can be applied to Stamina as well except for Dunmer, which become very good in this regard on top of the other races.
The meta for DPS didn't shift at all. If you really think a 1k DPS difference matters (which most likely will never be achieved in any environment besides dummy parses) the problem lies not on ZOS "greed" to sell race change tokens but on the players that somehow feel obliged to race change just to be 1% better on paper (they'll never be better in the real environment by these minimal changes and differences).
All races are not meant to perform DD roles in the best degree. Still the difference is very limited to around 1-2k, considering you are hitting great numbers. If tanky races had DPS in range of say 500 of the BiS races, nobody would bother running anything else.
Apart from a few things, this is as close as it gets to a balanced racial stability.
I suppose your definition of "balance" differs than mine. All races and classes have methods of tanking, healing, and damaging. With that being said, this is an MMO and min/max is real - my point is that its disingenuous to imply that this "balanced" when it's only balanced for the "IMO" races when it comes to DPS.
I understand your point. But you have to understand that you need every race needs to be equally good in every role. Like in real life scenarios, perfect balances is not possible. As tanking and healing is subjective and DD is objective, you want to leave the support roles to some races, leave DPS to the rest and make overall differences less significant. Which, IMO, ZOS has done a great job of doing. An Argonian for e.g. is only 1K apart from BiS rather than say 5-6k on live.
I agree, some said give imperial 2K stamina or magic depending on that is higher.FilteredRiddle wrote: »Interesting and useful comparisons, but the common thread I’m seeing is that Imperials are being shafted. Considering it’s (1) a purchased race and (2) the only race available to every faction without the any alliance pack, that is unacceptable. It was never the meta StamDPS, Tank, or PVP race but it was good at all three. Now it has Tank (kind of) and PVPish. People like myself who made multiple Imperial Stamina DPS are totally and completely screwed. It needs to be looked at and reworked. Period.
If Khajiit can suddenly be gods of magic and Dunmer are now Stamina pros, surely Imperials can at least maintain their DPS efficiency...
True its unfair that Khajiit mounts and pets don't work as combat pets in combat, that is lore friendly but only work for Khajiit.
Khajiit and Dunmer and not both suffer from low sustain. So in an pug group you probably end up lower.So apparently: Khajiit>Literally any other race/class combo
No race should be pigeon holed into being a "tank race." Imperial performance is very disappointing, especially considering that people PAID for the expansion with the racials as they WERE.