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Raid/Buffed DPS Comparison of each RACE by Class [Tests, Graphs, Interpretation and Final Score]

  • cheifsoap
    cheifsoap
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    susmitds wrote: »
    cheifsoap wrote: »
    richo262 wrote: »
    As expected, ZOS did a great job with balance. Pity the iconic Dunmer mDK had to be hit so hard.

    You're kidding, right? Nord, Argonian, and Imperial are trash for DPS. You call that balanced? or simply balanced across the "DPS" races?

    All races are not meant to perform DD roles in the best degree. Still the difference is very limited to around 1-2k, considering you are hitting great numbers. If tanky races had DPS in range of say 500 of the BiS races, nobody would bother running anything else.

    Apart from a few things, this is as close as it gets to a balanced racial stability.

    I suppose your definition of "balance" differs than mine. All races and classes have methods of tanking, healing, and damaging. With that being said, this is an MMO and min/max is real - my point is that its disingenuous to imply that this "balanced" when it's only balanced for the "IMO" races when it comes to DPS.
  • MLGProPlayer
    MLGProPlayer
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    Thorstienn wrote: »
    Great job.
    Was wondering what made Breton not excellent for Templar? I mean sustain is always good, and would think they would have the largest Mag pool for execute phase, this a larger jesus beam.

    It means Khajiit outparsed them on that class. Excellent only goes to the class that was top DPS in the test.
  • MLGProPlayer
    MLGProPlayer
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    Highly doubt especially on Altmers not being excellent, you are calling Breton excellent which lack 258 spell damage on theory so buffed 258 spell damage in group not performing even excellent?

    Something wrong with you results.

    Breton use a spell damage enchant, which gives them like 450 spell damage. They have so much sustain that they don't need a magicka absorb enchant, unlike Altmer, who do.

    450 SD > 258 SD

    Do you think in group you need recovery or restore magicka enchantment? Highly doubt that

    All the top raid groups run absorb magicka enchant right now on live.
  • susmitds
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    cheifsoap wrote: »
    susmitds wrote: »
    cheifsoap wrote: »
    richo262 wrote: »
    As expected, ZOS did a great job with balance. Pity the iconic Dunmer mDK had to be hit so hard.

    You're kidding, right? Nord, Argonian, and Imperial are trash for DPS. You call that balanced? or simply balanced across the "DPS" races?

    All races are not meant to perform DD roles in the best degree. Still the difference is very limited to around 1-2k, considering you are hitting great numbers. If tanky races had DPS in range of say 500 of the BiS races, nobody would bother running anything else.

    Apart from a few things, this is as close as it gets to a balanced racial stability.

    I suppose your definition of "balance" differs than mine. All races and classes have methods of tanking, healing, and damaging. With that being said, this is an MMO and min/max is real - my point is that its disingenuous to imply that this "balanced" when it's only balanced for the "IMO" races when it comes to DPS.

    I understand your point. But you have to understand that you need every race needs to be equally good in every role. Like in real life scenarios, perfect balances is not possible. As tanking and healing is subjective and DD is objective, you want to leave the support roles to some races, leave DPS to the rest and make overall differences less significant. Which, IMO, ZOS has done a great job of doing. An Argonian for e.g. is only 1K apart from BiS rather than say 5-6k on live.
    Edited by susmitds on January 24, 2019 5:01PM
  • Pyr0xyrecuprotite
    Pyr0xyrecuprotite
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    @susmitds
    Can you please update your original post to clarify if the testing was done on live (current/old racial passives) or PTS (new racial passives)? Thanks.
    Edited by Pyr0xyrecuprotite on January 24, 2019 4:56PM
  • josiahva
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    Wing wrote: »
    why are people complaining that the "tank" race do less damage. . .that's kind of the point. I agree that imperial needs something more unique or red diamond buffed but Nord is VERY strong this patch.
    mairwen85 wrote: »
    BahometZ wrote: »
    Wing wrote: »
    why are people complaining that the "tank" race do less damage. . .that's kind of the point. I agree that imperial needs something more unique or red diamond buffed but Nord is VERY strong this patch.

    Yeah, Imperial, Nord and Argonian are quintessential support races, yet you can still run them as DPS if you want. This situation hasn't changed, and now people are suddenly up in arms?

    So it's fine for a Healer race to also be a DPS race but NOT fine for a Tank Race to be a DPS race, despite the fact that both Imperial and Orc were solid DPS and Tank races prior to these changes? Also, people have been complaining about Nords for YEARS so to say that people are only now complaining is false as well.

    Non racial test data is included in the metrics. As a base line for (non) dps affinity, the effective difference is marginal - - you can extrapolate from that, viability is now more subjective than ever with the changes proposed. Disadvantaged races, are not complete bottom feeders.

    I was 'up in arms' about these modifications, but you can't argue the numbers and visualisations in OP. I suggest letting it sink in... ZOS has damn near achieved the impossible here. Any non dps race, with adequate load out and rotation is level pegged enough for dps role.

    Mind... Blown...

    Even so, Imperials, Argonian and Nords are getting pretty much shafted because they're supposed Tank Races whereas Orc, which was a Tank race, got a full on DPS redesign. Would adding a little love for them be that huge of a thing to ask for, especially Imperials and Argonian who probably got the short end of the stick if we're being totally honest. Imperial wasn't top tier in anything before these changes but were still a decent Stamina DPS race due to their large stat pools, now they're dead last. Argonians are just sort of there now since they don't excel in anything and their overall performance has dropped across the board.

    Personally, I'd lower Imperials Stamina to 1000 with a 1000 Magic buff alongside it and change up Red Diamond to be a Tri-Stat restore effect upon activating a weapon ability with a CD instead of the % based chance Heal only. Nords could get a small Stamina restore for taking damage and split Resourceful up to 500 Magic/Stamina with an extra 100 Spell/Weapon damage added to the Life Mender Passive for Argonians.

    I mean, it would have to be tested ofc but I don't think those small adjustments would break the balance on any of those races but it would give them a slight bump to their overall performance, which is a bit lacking ATM.

    This is the whole problem right there. That ZOS is trying to decide for us what role our class and race suits us for. Thats a bunch of BS and only plays into the whole pigeonholing Meta game. Every change they make, there is less play how you like and you "must" play this certain combination to be considered viable enough to get a spot in trials, with this gear, etc....good job ZOS...more pigeonholing by the pigeonholing experts.
  • susmitds
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    @susmitds
    Can you please update your original post to clarify if the testing was done on live (current/old racial passives) or PTS (new racial passives)? Thanks.

    PTS
  • IronWooshu
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    susmitds wrote: »
    IronWooshu wrote: »
    susmitds wrote: »

    Tanking racials don't matter. If they did Nord wouldn't have been bottom tier in literally everything for years, being completely outstripped by every other race in practically everything.

    Let's take your example and flip it for DPS or Healing; Would you perform worse for picking Nord instead of Khajiit. The answer is a big fat YES.

    Let me clear things out things out a bit.

    Lets see the effect of a good tanking race on average parses with Warhorn.

    Nord Ultimate gen passive = 0.5
    Ultimate from replacing Resist sets with Bloodspawn = 1.2 Avg

    Khajiit Tank ultigen - 3.6 give or take (Taking base regen and Minor Heroism with high uptime into account)
    Nord Tank ultigen - 3.6+0.5+1.2 = 5.3

    Khajiit Major Force Uptime per 10 minutes - 600/(250/3.6) * 9.5 = 82 secs approx
    Nord Major Force Uptime per 10 minutes - 600/(250/5.3) * 9.5 = 120 secs approx

    Khajiit Stat Boost Uptime per 10 minutes - 600/(250/3.6) * 30 = 260 secs approx
    Nord Stat Boost Uptime per 10 minutes - 600/(250/5.3) * 30 = 381 secs approx

    Major Force = 10% boost to DPS approx on average
    Stat Boost = 2%-5% boost to DPS approx on average = 3.5%

    Let's consider 8 DPS doing 60K DPS without Warhorn.
    Total unboosted DPS = 480k

    Khajiit Tank DPS Boost = 480000*0.1*82/600+480000*0.035*260/600 = 13840
    Nord Tank DPS Boost = 480000*0.1*120/600+480000*0.035*381/600 = 20268

    That's 6.5K more DPS that a single Nord can indirectly add to a group. The value may change either lesser or greater, but it will always be there.

    Which do you think is more valuable, 1K direct DPS or 6.5K indirect DPS to group along with sustain benefits of higher resource reserve uptime?

    Also considering, BiS tanks are DKs, the ultimate gen also converts to higher sustain.

    Sure, tanking cannot be objectively compared, but it can always be subjectively compared.
    You know what's going to happen, Nords are going to be pushed into healers for warhorn while Redguards become the defacto #1 tank race due to that unbelievable sustain which will allow them to essentially permablock especially when their skill cost is reduced by so much.

    Asides the enviable of what I explained that ultimate regen is a joke being based off taking damage rather than just being in combat. If they made it when in combat it would work better for DPS and Healing roles especially the latter since we all know where Nords are gonna be pidgeon holed into.

    This BiS tank talk is not the case when Redguard is way better.

    Yes, I can see Redguard becoming a great Tanking race. However, I would say Nord are still better than with sustain support, Nord DKs can permablock, especially as now they will get to use Magicka to block on back bar. Nords are the only race that affect group DPS directly. Everything else can be made with skill. Every single Nord in the group, bring higher Major Force uptime. I know, certain groups will sqeeze every last DPS out of the group.

    It's a sad day when the races they were trying to pidgeon hole into tanks are gonna be behind the race they wanted good for DPS in Redguard.
  • cheifsoap
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    susmitds wrote: »
    cheifsoap wrote: »
    susmitds wrote: »
    cheifsoap wrote: »
    richo262 wrote: »
    As expected, ZOS did a great job with balance. Pity the iconic Dunmer mDK had to be hit so hard.

    You're kidding, right? Nord, Argonian, and Imperial are trash for DPS. You call that balanced? or simply balanced across the "DPS" races?

    All races are not meant to perform DD roles in the best degree. Still the difference is very limited to around 1-2k, considering you are hitting great numbers. If tanky races had DPS in range of say 500 of the BiS races, nobody would bother running anything else.

    Apart from a few things, this is as close as it gets to a balanced racial stability.

    I suppose your definition of "balance" differs than mine. All races and classes have methods of tanking, healing, and damaging. With that being said, this is an MMO and min/max is real - my point is that its disingenuous to imply that this "balanced" when it's only balanced for the "IMO" races when it comes to DPS.

    I understand your point. But you have to understand that you need every race needs to be equally good in every role. Like in real life scenarios, perfect balances is not possible. As tanking and healing is subjective and DD is objective, you want to leave the support roles to some races, leave DPS to the rest and make overall differences less significant. Which, IMO, ZOS has done a great job of doing. An Argonian for e.g. is only 1K apart from BiS rather than say 5-6k on live.

    That 1k difference will drive everyone to roll the better race. That is how MMO's have always worked, its about min/maxing. It's a little irritating that that they've nerfed some races for others, leaving those races in the dust. The whole philosophy of "play the game how you like" is total nonsense. Like you said, I simply cannot play an argonian mDPS and compete with a high elf mDPS, apparently argonians are not the "DPS race". This game was only "balanced" around the races ZOS felt were DPS races, while other ones are completely left in the dust for what - healing? tanking? Is that really the only role argonians, nords, and imperials are supposed to play? Especially after the nerfs, is nonsense.
    Edit: Fixed typo
    Edited by cheifsoap on January 24, 2019 5:28PM
  • ZOS_RogerJ
    ZOS_RogerJ
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    Just a friendly reminder to keep the thread, on-topic, constructive and civil.
    The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - ZeniMax Online Studios
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    Staff Post
  • generalmyrick
    generalmyrick
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    Intextio wrote: »
    So is the lynch mob going to calm down now, or are they just going to keep screaming bloody murder?

    don't worry, 1st year stats girl/guy will claim bias, and all the other new vocab words he/she learned to discredit this work.

    :-)

    i love it though! thanks dude!
    "The red pill and its opposite, the blue pill, are a popular cultural meme, a metaphor representing the choice between:

    Knowledge, freedom, uncertainty and the brutal truths of reality (red pill)
    Security, happiness, beauty, and the blissful ignorance of illusion (blue pill)"

    Insight to Agree to Awesome Ratio = 1:6.04:2.76 as of 1/25/2019

    Compared to people that I've ignored = I am 18% more insightful, 20% less agreeable, and 88% more awesome.
  • ValorieW
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    Hey, upside to this data is that I can rejigger my Dunmer mnb to be stamblade and my Redguard Stamblade to be either Breton or High elf mnb, so it’s not a total disaster. My high elf sorc should be fine as is. My healers are adequate as is, but I may change one to Breton. No idea on what to do with my Argonian tank yet. It hurts my heart to change my stamblade though... she is stunning to look at and so much fun to play.
  • John_Falstaff
    John_Falstaff
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    @MLGProPlayer , Liko didn't do a lot of parses either, and even his parses were at some points criticized for contradicting the math behind passives. All told, neither his example nor mine is enough to prove or disprove the effect of crit on parse variance.

    Could probably estimate it from theoretical standpoint, but actually, stats are interchangeable in real situation; magicka khajiit can drop Thief for Apprentice, and in comparison to altmer, they'll have traded 2.68% crit for 105 base spell damage, which should be roughly equal.
  • Seraphayel
    Seraphayel
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    cheifsoap wrote: »
    That 1k difference will drive everyone to roll the better race. That is how MMO's have always worked, its about min/maxing. It's a little irritating that that they've nerfed some races for others, leaving those races in the dust. The whole philosophy of "play the game how you like" is total nonsense. Like you said, I simply cannot play an argonian mDPS and compete with a high elf mDPS, apparently argonians are not the "DPS race". This game was only "balanced" around the races ZOS felt were DPS races, while other ones are completely left in the dust for what - healing? tanking? Is that really the only role argonians, nords, and imperials are supposed to play? Especially after the nerfs, is nonsense.
    Edit: Fixed typo

    People race changing for a "better" race just because of a 1k difference (~1.5%) is ridiculous. 1k DPS is nothing. Which race was nerfed to be left in the dust? All former DPS races are still great in that regard, some have shifted slightly (in a very unsignificant way). Right now we have racial differences of 5-6K DPS or even more. Reducing this to a difference of ~ 1k is excellent work on ZOS side. I doubt that anyone here in this thread is one of the top 0.1% DPS where this difference would really matter. Before the minimal racial differences come to play your own faults will decrease your DPS.

    The Magicka races are still Magicka races and closer together than ever before. The same goes for Stamina races. And then we have the hybrid races (Nord, Argonian, Imperial) which might not excel in any DPS role but benefit hybrid and foremost tank roles. A Nord is undoubtly the "better" tank whereas the Altmer is undoubtly the better Magicka DPS - that's totally normal due to the nature of the races.

    As I said, the only race that would need a slight buff is Imperials. The others are totally fine in their regard.
    PS5
    EU
    Aldmeri Dominion
    - Khajiit Arcanist -
  • Seraphayel
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    This is great data and I admit that the changes are great. The fact that, if you want to adjust to meta, it is tied to real world money is freaking annoying.

    I wouldn't complain if they had, let's say, à token pack of 6 for 6k or they included 5-6 token with the prepurchase of Elsweyr but I'm annoyed but the monetary implications.

    I know they're here to make money but the changes to the meta I've seen (playing since Morrowind) , as small as they were, never implicated real world money. This is different. Knowing the changes would happen, I would've chosen different races for almost all of my 14 toons. I had a Breton magsorc that I used for pvp. Ended up race-changing for argonian because sustain is king in pvp. Well Breton looks like it will have better sustain and damage so I wouldn't have bothered switching.

    I have a Dunmer magwarden, with that fire damage and double fire staves, my damage was really good. It is still going to perform very well but it would perform better being another race. They were chosen because they had an edge, not because I liked Dunmers.

    I don't know, I love the changes and love to see that it is way more balanced now as far as races go. I'm just annoyed because I wouldn't have picked this race for this class and this other race for this other class and if I want to change well, spit out the cash.

    To adjust to meta? Can you please name one example where you would change your recent meta race to the new meta race in the upcoming update?

    If you played Altmer Magicka you're still absolutely viable after the changes. Same goes for Breton and Dunmer and even Argonian. The only difference is that Khajiit makes a great Magicka race, too. This can be applied to Stamina as well except for Dunmer, which become very good in this regard on top of the other races.

    Let's look at the recent vs. upcoming meta:

    Recent meta for Magicka: Altmer // Upcoming meta for Magicka: Breton - difference Altmer vs. Breton then: < 300 DPS / 0.5%

    Recent meta for Stamina: Redguard // Upcoming meta for Stamina: Dunmer - difference Redguard vs. Dunmer then: < 300 DPS / 0.5%

    (based on the results on the first page)

    The meta for DPS didn't shift at all. If you really think a < 1k DPS difference matters (which most likely will never be achieved in any environment besides dummy parses) the problem lies not on ZOS "greed" to sell race change tokens but on the players that somehow feel obliged to race change just to be < 1% better on paper (they'll never be better in the real environment by these minimal changes and differences).
    Edited by Seraphayel on January 24, 2019 6:15PM
    PS5
    EU
    Aldmeri Dominion
    - Khajiit Arcanist -
  • zaria
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    cheifsoap wrote: »
    susmitds wrote: »
    cheifsoap wrote: »
    susmitds wrote: »
    cheifsoap wrote: »
    richo262 wrote: »
    As expected, ZOS did a great job with balance. Pity the iconic Dunmer mDK had to be hit so hard.

    You're kidding, right? Nord, Argonian, and Imperial are trash for DPS. You call that balanced? or simply balanced across the "DPS" races?

    All races are not meant to perform DD roles in the best degree. Still the difference is very limited to around 1-2k, considering you are hitting great numbers. If tanky races had DPS in range of say 500 of the BiS races, nobody would bother running anything else.

    Apart from a few things, this is as close as it gets to a balanced racial stability.

    I suppose your definition of "balance" differs than mine. All races and classes have methods of tanking, healing, and damaging. With that being said, this is an MMO and min/max is real - my point is that its disingenuous to imply that this "balanced" when it's only balanced for the "IMO" races when it comes to DPS.

    I understand your point. But you have to understand that you need every race needs to be equally good in every role. Like in real life scenarios, perfect balances is not possible. As tanking and healing is subjective and DD is objective, you want to leave the support roles to some races, leave DPS to the rest and make overall differences less significant. Which, IMO, ZOS has done a great job of doing. An Argonian for e.g. is only 1K apart from BiS rather than say 5-6k on live.

    That 1k difference will drive everyone to roll the better race. That is how MMO's have always worked, its about min/maxing. It's a little irritating that that they've nerfed some races for others, leaving those races in the dust. The whole philosophy of "play the game how you like" is total nonsense. Like you said, I simply cannot play an argonian mDPS and compete with a high elf mDPS, apparently argonians are not the "DPS race". This game is only balanced around the races ZOS felt were DPS races, while other ones are completely left in the dust for what - healing? tanking? Is that really the only role argonians, nords, and imperials are supposed to play? Especially after the nerfs, is nonsense.
    On the magblade Highest dps is Breton with 60798 down to Dunmer on 60187 this is an 611 difference or 1.00%
    Argonian is 59461 below Breton with 1337 or 2.20 % however 726 behind dunmer or 1.20%
    Non magic races like orc on 58400 who is 2398 below Breton or 4%

    MagDK again breton on top with 58308, Khajiit bottom on 57549 giving 759 or 1.30%
    Please note that an Orc or Bosmer magblade will out dps an Breton magDK.
    Bosmer will do 55648 who is 2660 below or 4.56%

    Stamblade Dunmer 62016 to redguard 61147 (excluding imperial as more tank) diference 869 or 1.40%
    An Breton or other non stamina race 59278 who is 2738 or 4.41%

    StamDK, Dunmer at 60137 to Khajiit at 59268 diference 869 or 1.45%
    An Breton or other non stamina race 56003 difference 4134 or 6.87%

    Conclusion outside that class is more important than race.
    Argonian and Imperial are a bit in the middle. Was an suggestion to give Imperial 2000 health and magic depending on that is higher, perhaps give Agonian 1000 stamina, and we have two two new hybrid races.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • FilteredRiddle
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    Interesting and useful comparisons, but the common thread I’m seeing is that Imperials are being shafted. Considering it’s (1) a purchased race and (2) the only race available to every faction without the any alliance pack, that is unacceptable. It was never the meta StamDPS, Tank, or PVP race but it was good at all three. Now it has Tank (kind of) and PVPish. People like myself who made multiple Imperial Stamina DPS are totally and completely screwed. It needs to be looked at and reworked. Period.

    If Khajiit can suddenly be gods of magic and Dunmer are now Stamina pros, surely Imperials can at least maintain their DPS efficiency...
    Xbox One NA
    The Sentinels of Padomay
    Obsidian Guard (Social with PvX Events)

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  • zaria
    zaria
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    This is great data and I admit that the changes are great. The fact that, if you want to adjust to meta, it is tied to real world money is freaking annoying.

    I wouldn't complain if they had, let's say, à token pack of 6 for 6k or they included 5-6 token with the prepurchase of Elsweyr but I'm annoyed but the monetary implications.

    I know they're here to make money but the changes to the meta I've seen (playing since Morrowind) , as small as they were, never implicated real world money. This is different. Knowing the changes would happen, I would've chosen different races for almost all of my 14 toons. I had a Breton magsorc that I used for pvp. Ended up race-changing for argonian because sustain is king in pvp. Well Breton looks like it will have better sustain and damage so I wouldn't have bothered switching.

    I have a Dunmer magwarden, with that fire damage and double fire staves, my damage was really good. It is still going to perform very well but it would perform better being another race. They were chosen because they had an edge, not because I liked Dunmers.

    I don't know, I love the changes and love to see that it is way more balanced now as far as races go. I'm just annoyed because I wouldn't have picked this race for this class and this other race for this other class and if I want to change well, spit out the cash.

    To adjust to meta? Can you please name one example where you would change your recent meta race to the new meta race in the upcoming update?

    If you played Altmer Magicka you're still absolutely viable after the changes. Same goes for Breton and Dunmer and even Argonian. The only difference is that Khajiit makes a great Magicka race, too. This can be applied to Stamina as well except for Dunmer, which become very good in this regard on top of the other races.

    The meta for DPS didn't shift at all. If you really think a 1k DPS difference matters (which most likely will never be achieved in any environment besides dummy parses) the problem lies not on ZOS "greed" to sell race change tokens but on the players that somehow feel obliged to race change just to be 1% better on paper (they'll never be better in the real environment by these minimal changes and differences).
    This, now adjust for the error in the parses.
    Class is more important see my above, post of a Orc magblade would out dps and magdk Breton.

    Now Orcs are bis level stamDD from being mostly tanks. That is a chance for them, the fat orc tank in wedding dress is an meme. Bosmers are monsters in PvP. Nord are bis trial tanks.
    That is the meta changes. Except that Dunmer and Khajiits who ignore it and just go magic or stamina as the wind blows.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • xaraan
    xaraan
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    susmitds wrote: »
    cheifsoap wrote: »
    susmitds wrote: »
    cheifsoap wrote: »
    richo262 wrote: »
    As expected, ZOS did a great job with balance. Pity the iconic Dunmer mDK had to be hit so hard.

    You're kidding, right? Nord, Argonian, and Imperial are trash for DPS. You call that balanced? or simply balanced across the "DPS" races?

    All races are not meant to perform DD roles in the best degree. Still the difference is very limited to around 1-2k, considering you are hitting great numbers. If tanky races had DPS in range of say 500 of the BiS races, nobody would bother running anything else.

    Apart from a few things, this is as close as it gets to a balanced racial stability.

    I suppose your definition of "balance" differs than mine. All races and classes have methods of tanking, healing, and damaging. With that being said, this is an MMO and min/max is real - my point is that its disingenuous to imply that this "balanced" when it's only balanced for the "IMO" races when it comes to DPS.

    I understand your point. But you have to understand that you need every race needs to be equally good in every role. Like in real life scenarios, perfect balances is not possible. As tanking and healing is subjective and DD is objective, you want to leave the support roles to some races, leave DPS to the rest and make overall differences less significant. Which, IMO, ZOS has done a great job of doing. An Argonian for e.g. is only 1K apart from BiS rather than say 5-6k on live.


    I agree that having them be 'less bad' than on live is a good thing. And having the differences between the races matter less, but still matter is good as well.

    Personally, I've suggested that Argonians get 750 to magicka and stamina instead of just 1K to magicka. This might lower their mag performance a teeny tiny bit, but would kick up their stam performance a bit as well so they would at least be "decent" at both types of DD roles according to your charts.

    THIS is not a crazy expectation IMO. (I also think the same could be done for the other two tanking races, but I understand Argonian best out of the three).

    It would also eliminate the second stealth nerf that tanks will have to health. As obviously lowering health bonus from 9% to 1K will lower their overall health. They will also have to take points/enchants out of health to put into stam to raise that resources higher than magicka to get stam return for shards (as that is probably needed for the majority of tanking builds). Giving them a flat buff to both resources would eliminate that problem. And would not be any sort of crazy high buff to their overall standings on your charts.
    -- @xaraan --
    nightblade: Xaraan templar: Xaraan-dar dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus necromancer: Xaraan-qa warden: Xaraanodon sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
    AD • NA • PC
  • deLioncourt
    deLioncourt
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    XxCaLxX wrote: »
    basically anyone that bought the imperial upgrade wasted money.

    I want a refund.
  • Steelshiv
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    Just want to say how awesome this post and the work you and your guild put into testing, recording, and interpreting the data. Amazing job, 10/10 would read findings again.
  • zaria
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    Interesting and useful comparisons, but the common thread I’m seeing is that Imperials are being shafted. Considering it’s (1) a purchased race and (2) the only race available to every faction without the any alliance pack, that is unacceptable. It was never the meta StamDPS, Tank, or PVP race but it was good at all three. Now it has Tank (kind of) and PVPish. People like myself who made multiple Imperial Stamina DPS are totally and completely screwed. It needs to be looked at and reworked. Period.

    If Khajiit can suddenly be gods of magic and Dunmer are now Stamina pros, surely Imperials can at least maintain their DPS efficiency...
    I agree, some said give imperial 2K stamina or magic depending on that is higher.
    That should put you in line with Argonians for magic builds, its also an unique mechanic.
    Perhaps give Argonians 750K magic and stamina
    Yes you see how this is going.

    Now both Imperial and Argonians vote for better sustain on Khajiit.
    Edited by zaria on January 24, 2019 9:55PM
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • ZonasArch
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    Intextio wrote: »
    This should shut the naysayers up.

    I admire your optimism.
  • zaria
    zaria
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    ZonasArch wrote: »
    Intextio wrote: »
    This should shut the naysayers up.

    I admire your optimism.
    True its unfair that Khajiit mounts and pets don't work as combat pets in combat, that is lore friendly but only work for Khajiit.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • SkillzMFG
    SkillzMFG
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    So apparently: Khajiit>Literally any other race/class combo
  • Evil_Rurouni
    Evil_Rurouni
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    @susmitds

    Good work.
    There is one additional test you could run on PTS that might be of interest to a few people here, if you and the others are willing to spend the time:

    Pet sorc race comparison.


    I don't think the tests you've already done can be extrapolated to pet sorc builds like they can to most other conventional DPS builds, due to them using heavy attacks in lieu of a proper spammable and pet damage scaling being kinda oddball.

    I'm wondering if the low sustain races will now make better petsorcs than Altmer do given that they've lost the damage bonus to lightning damage, and if the difference between different the mag races (if any) on petsorc is actually big enough to be noticeable.
  • zaria
    zaria
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    SkillzMFG wrote: »
    So apparently: Khajiit>Literally any other race/class combo
    Khajiit and Dunmer and not both suffer from low sustain. So in an pug group you probably end up lower.
    However you can switch then meta changes or then bored.

    Also me valuing high flexibility a bit more than doing 200 damage more than the other toon on an 60K parse.
    Edited by zaria on January 24, 2019 10:54PM
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • Pevey
    Pevey
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    No race should be pigeon holed into being a "tank race." Imperial performance is very disappointing, especially considering that people PAID for the expansion with the racials as they WERE.
  • huschdeguddzje
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    Pevey wrote: »
    No race should be pigeon holed into being a "tank race." Imperial performance is very disappointing, especially considering that people PAID for the expansion with the racials as they WERE.

    Imperial should be a jack of all trades race, maybe change red diamond passive so it restores your highest resource, that way tanks and both types of dps can benefit from it
  • simeion
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    @susmitds

    First off, I would like to thank you and the other players that took the time perform these test and breakdown your results. I also like that you started your test with a lot of constants.

    This is were i have some issues. Not every race or class builds the same. NB and Templars do very well around crits because of the additional crit damage. Also classes with with executes my fair better with blood thirty jewelry trait or classes that dont have an execute. Magblades do well with arcane and other classes do better with infused weapons/spell damage traits.

    I am not trying to down play or complain about the work you and your crew did. Please dont take it that way. All I am saying is not ever class and race combo builds exactly the same. Sure there will be the most optimal.

    Reason I bring this up is i have heard rumors of stamDK dropping Advancing Yokeda (which is a constant in your test) for Deadly Strike using a rapid strikes as a spamable. It is still early in the PTS.

    Are you and your crew going to do the same thing for optimizing race/class to specific builds?
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