Raid/Buffed DPS Comparison of each RACE by Class [Tests, Graphs, Interpretation and Final Score]

agegarton

@susmitds what an epic piece of work - thank you!

Seraphayel

RodneyRegis wrote: »

Is this after the changes? So dark elf is now a stam race?!

Yes, after the changes.

And no, Dark Elf is not a Stamina race, it's an excellent hybrid race for both Stamina and Magicka builds.

RodneyRegis

Well either way, it's a superb piece of work. And I'm delighted to hear that my Bretons will finally be competitive!

nsmurfer

susmitds wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

I frankly don't feel that high variance in khajiit parses is completely explained by the extra 8% of crit; if anything, such variance would be showing on live too for stamina khajiit builds (and I don't see such huge spread in my parses, even when I rely on axe bleed). On a small sample size like that (and not belittling @susmitds here, he'd done huge work and gave most insight than others on new state of things) some of that is just play of RNG that could have happened with any other race, but in this case did not.

@John_Falstaff
I feel that the variance can be decreased significantly with recovery enchants on jewelry or by using Bi-stat+recovery food. I was the Stamina NB DD for the tests and for every low DPS tests, the reason primarily tended to be not getting high crit rates, specifically more during the Major Force uptimes, after Incap Strike and during the execute phases. In Khajiit's case, in some cases, the initial two Major Force burn phases, resonated perfectly with the crits, DPS stayed high, and I went with low resource strain to the final phases. Some cases, the opposite happened causing the initial phases to last stages, forcing a heavy attack in the worst possible time of Major Force execution phase, which is a huge DPS loss.

For e.g, getting a 50k Bow Proc and 5 back to back 55k+ Killer's Blade during the final Major Force buffed execution phases is an incredible boost to DPS. There is also the chance of opposite with a heavy attack, non crit Bow proc and non-crit executes, wrecking the DPS results. Unlike Dunmer, Orc, Bosmer, Redguard or even Imperial, the only static damage increase passive for Khajiit Stamblade is 750 Stamina, which is significantly lesser than 2000 stamina or 250 weapon damage or both. This alone cannot make up for RNGesus failing me.

For magicka parses, the drain as well as the regen is higher, this creates a dynamic sustain condition, where parses tend to be more unforgiving (the primary reason why Breton is on top, as their passive significantly drops drain, instead of raising regen too much). Khajiit low sustain can cause standard deviation to be increase, which again gets affected by the resonance aspect previously mentioned.

In my solo tests, you will notice that deviation is significantly lower for Khajiit, as my parses are truly sustained by me with recovery food instead of relying on group, designed to last the entire parse, increasing the low parses. Also Major Force is not there to affect solo parses, which is the primary reason for some parses to hit those crazy highs compared to the rest, so Khajiit's high parses are lowered. Raising the floor and lowering the roof together keeps variance low. That's why, Dunmer ranks first in variance in solo parses, which is caused by sustain rather than RNG.

Would increasing Khajiit stam and mag sustain to 150 help with this while also not making them OP?

That is in my opinion the best option to stabilize Khajiit DPS. Take away the health regen, give Khajiit more breathing space for skill use. Also, it might even be needed to balance Khajiit for PvP, where 8% crit can become useless against the average guy with 3000 crit resist.

@ZOS_Gilliam

Thorstienn

Great job.
Was wondering what made Breton not excellent for Templar? I mean sustain is always good, and would think they would have the largest Mag pool for execute phase, this a larger jesus beam.

RodneyRegis

OK so - I have a Dunmer Templar who I've used as my main healer for years. I'm levelling a Breton as I wanted a better healer race.

So now I have a Dunmer and a Breton templar - which should I keep as healer and which as mag dps? My other Templar is a Redguard so I can't respec her to mag DPS...

Perhaps I should get a race change token and make my Stamplar a khajit. That's my only really suboptimal character. Any chance of a free token after the changes?

zaria

Seraphayel wrote: »

RodneyRegis wrote: »

Is this after the changes? So dark elf is now a stam race?!

Yes, after the changes.

And no, Dark Elf is not a Stamina race, it's an excellent hybrid race for both Stamina and Magicka builds.

So you can switch if stamina builds become better or you are bored.

susmitds

Thorstienn wrote: »

Great job.
Was wondering what made Breton not excellent for Templar? I mean sustain is always good, and would think they would have the largest Mag pool for execute phase, this a larger jesus beam.

Simply, the fact that Khajiit got better parses on average. I didn't explicitly test this as I am not used to Magicka Templar DPS, not having one on live, but theoretical analysis, as well as tests from other players, some guild mates and friends tended to go this way.

Also I personally tested Stamina Templar for Khajiit, Dunmer and Orc, though not as extensively as these ones, and Khajiit averaged almost 700 DPS above the 2nd Dunmer, with their highest parse being as high as 1.4k higher than Dunmer. Obviously I had a smaller sample of 5 and the error rate is high as such. Still, the overall results are matching with theoretical analysis.

Nefaras

Thank you for this!

Azyle1

susmitds wrote: »

Thorstienn wrote: »

Great job.
Was wondering what made Breton not excellent for Templar? I mean sustain is always good, and would think they would have the largest Mag pool for execute phase, this a larger jesus beam.

Simply, the fact that Khajiit got better parses on average. I didn't explicitly test this, but theoretical analysis, as well as tests from other players, some guild mates and friends tended to go this way.

@susmitds

So for a StamWarden and a Stamblade... we are talking mere hundreds on dps differences between Khajiit, Dunmer and Redguard?

susmitds

Azyle1 wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Thorstienn wrote: »

Great job.
Was wondering what made Breton not excellent for Templar? I mean sustain is always good, and would think they would have the largest Mag pool for execute phase, this a larger jesus beam.

Simply, the fact that Khajiit got better parses on average. I didn't explicitly test this, but theoretical analysis, as well as tests from other players, some guild mates and friends tended to go this way.

@susmitds

So for a StamWarden and a Stamblade... we are talking mere hundreds on dps differences between Khajiit, Dunmer and Redguard?

It would be 100s difference taking averages. In live fights, variance comes into play and the difference can be much higher

Seraphayel

I mean is it even worth discussing differences that are somewhere between 200-400 DPS? That's merely 1% and due to variances happening all the time there really isn't a "best" in that scenario, as it has been stated on page one. If you're rated a 9 or a 10 makes no difference in the end.

Itzmichi

Great work!

ElliottXO

IronWooshu wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

Hold your horses everyone.

Nord, Imperial and Argonian are not competing amongst DD, so in this regard they also don't need a buff.

You can't have tanking advantages and competitive DD roles at the same time.

The best end game tank play a Khajiit... Yes you read that right... a Khajiit... therefore tanking passives mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things.

"tanking advantages", good one.

I am glad to know that you are the authority to decide on who the best tank is.

Following your argument all racial passives mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things, which can also be derived from the OPs results.

In the end we are debating here about 3-5% performance in any role.

Pretty sure if you ask most people who the best tank is they would say Woeler as well, the dude has an entire website to tanking which I am sure every tank starting off has went to st some point for information.

https://woeler.eu/

I think you don't get the point here. My question is: would Woeler perform worse if he would chose Nord instead of Khajit?

You say tanking racials don't matter. I say, if tanking racials don't matter then no racials matter.

Schattenfluegel

ElliottXO wrote: »

I think you don't get the point here. My question is: would Woeler perform worse if he would chose Nord instead of Khajit?

You say tanking racials don't matter. I say, if tanking racials don't matter then no racials matter.

Racials dont matter really, but they have influence.

Skill and your own Way to Play a role always matters.

Silver_Strider

ElliottXO wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

Hold your horses everyone.

Nord, Imperial and Argonian are not competing amongst DD, so in this regard they also don't need a buff.

You can't have tanking advantages and competitive DD roles at the same time.

The best end game tank play a Khajiit... Yes you read that right... a Khajiit... therefore tanking passives mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things.

"tanking advantages", good one.

I am glad to know that you are the authority to decide on who the best tank is.

Following your argument all racial passives mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things, which can also be derived from the OPs results.

In the end we are debating here about 3-5% performance in any role.

Pretty sure if you ask most people who the best tank is they would say Woeler as well, the dude has an entire website to tanking which I am sure every tank starting off has went to st some point for information.

https://woeler.eu/

I think you don't get the point here. My question is: would Woeler perform worse if he would chose Nord instead of Khajit?

You say tanking racials don't matter. I say, if tanking racials don't matter then no racials matter.

Tanking racials don't matter. If they did Nord wouldn't have been bottom tier in literally everything for years, being completely outstripped by every other race in practically everything.

Let's take your example and flip it for DPS or Healing; Would you perform worse for picking Nord instead of Khajiit. The answer is a big fat YES.

richo262

As expected, ZOS did a great job with balance. Pity the iconic Dunmer mDK had to be hit so hard.

Lord_Eomer

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Highly doubt especially on Altmers not being excellent, you are calling Breton excellent which lack 258 spell damage on theory so buffed 258 spell damage in group not performing even excellent?

Something wrong with you results.

Breton use a spell damage enchant, which gives them like 450 spell damage. They have so much sustain that they don't need a magicka absorb enchant, unlike Altmer, who do.

450 SD > 258 SD

Do you think in group you need recovery or restore magicka enchantment? Highly doubt that

paulychan

Thanks for this.
I've been rolling a dunmer magblade but polished off my altmer magsorc this week. He's looking good next patch

susmitds

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Tanking racials don't matter. If they did Nord wouldn't have been bottom tier in literally everything for years, being completely outstripped by every other race in practically everything.

Let's take your example and flip it for DPS or Healing; Would you perform worse for picking Nord instead of Khajiit. The answer is a big fat YES.

Let me clear things out things out a bit.

Lets see the effect of a good tanking race on average parses with Warhorn.

Nord Ultimate gen passive = 0.5
Ultimate from replacing Resist sets with Bloodspawn = 1.2 Avg

Khajiit Tank ultigen - 3.6 give or take (Taking base regen and Minor Heroism with high uptime into account)
Nord Tank ultigen - 3.6+0.5+1.2 = 5.3

Khajiit Major Force Uptime per 10 minutes - 600/(250/3.6) * 9.5 = 82 secs approx
Nord Major Force Uptime per 10 minutes - 600/(250/5.3) * 9.5 = 120 secs approx

Khajiit Stat Boost Uptime per 10 minutes - 600/(250/3.6) * 30 = 260 secs approx
Nord Stat Boost Uptime per 10 minutes - 600/(250/5.3) * 30 = 381 secs approx

Major Force = 10% boost to DPS approx on average
Stat Boost = 2%-5% boost to DPS approx on average = 3.5%

Let's consider 8 DPS doing 60K DPS without Warhorn.
Total unboosted DPS = 480k

Khajiit Tank DPS Boost = 480000*0.1*82/600+480000*0.035*260/600 = 13840
Nord Tank DPS Boost = 480000*0.1*120/600+480000*0.035*381/600 = 20268

That's 6.5K more DPS that a single Nord can indirectly add to a group. The value may change either lesser or greater, but it will always be there.

Which do you think is more valuable, 1K direct DPS or 6.5K indirect DPS to group along with sustain benefits of higher resource reserve uptime?

Also considering, BiS tanks are DKs, the ultimate gen also converts to higher sustain.

Sure, tanking cannot be objectively compared, but it can always be subjectively compared.

cheifsoap

richo262 wrote: »

As expected, ZOS did a great job with balance. Pity the iconic Dunmer mDK had to be hit so hard.

You're kidding, right? Nord, Argonian, and Imperial are trash for DPS. You call that balanced? or simply balanced across the "DPS" races?

CleymenZero

Seraphayel wrote: »

CleymenZero wrote: »

Intextio wrote: »

So is the lynch mob going to calm down now, or are they just going to keep screaming bloody murder?

hmm I don't know.... Do you have magicka toons that are Dunmer? I do... ZOS creating an expense for me is kind of a *** move. We'll see what changes they'll make.

Oh, based on his analysis, Altmer is very good at magDPS but Breton is better.... Who the heck played Breton as magDPS in the end game community?

So for now, magDPS is mostly Breton except on magplar where Khajit would be better. The best damage magDPS, Dunmer, is now one of the best stam. Altmer, which was pretty much on par or barely lower than Dunmer as magDPS is very good but not the best. Orc, a race nobody ever played in PvE is now one of the best stam. Redguard, well, most stams were redguard and now Dunmer is more versatile...

I don't know. I love the changes but all I see here is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Hard to accept since it involves money. I keep saying that I wouldn't mind grinding another skills line, buying a chapter. I'd spend money to get content. The race-change thing costs real world money and those changes, although very fun, will probably make them a load of money but you have to wonder if this whole thing was intentional.

What I get right now is people who didn't min-max don't care and people who min-max are either cautious because changes can be made or pissed because they'll have to pay to race-change.

The difference between Altmer and Breton Magicka DPS is tiny, not even worth mentioning. The DPS difference is <500, in some cases it's just 200 DPS which is not even a 0.5% difference. This is almost perfect balancing. And there is still complaining that Breton might be better than Altmer for Magicka DPS? The difference between "best Magicka race" and "worst Magicka race" is ~ 1.5k DPS (~2.5%). It's hilarious that anybody considers race changes because of an average 1000 more or less DPS.

The meta barely changed, if at all.

- Khajiit & Dunmer are the most versatile races, excelling in both Magicka and Stamina

- All of the Magicka races are very close together

- All of the Stamina races are very close together

- Argonian, Imperials and Nord are "underperforming" DPS wise due to their nature of being better tank races

The only complaint that I can understand is about Imperials underperforming overall which can easily be fixed by a small buff. All the other racial changes are - surprise surprise - excellent when it comes to balance.

It says raid buff but there's no Warhorn. If Khajit is very close or the same on the dummy, that 8% crit with good Warhorn uptime will shoot it forward. In long fights, Breton will win hands down if they are close to altmer on the dummy.

This is great data and I admit that the changes are great. The fact that, if you want to adjust to meta, it is tied to real world money is freaking annoying.

I wouldn't complain if they had, let's say, à token pack of 6 for 6k or they included 5-6 token with the prepurchase of Elsweyr but I'm annoyed but the monetary implications.

I know they're here to make money but the changes to the meta I've seen (playing since Morrowind) , as small as they were, never implicated real world money. This is different. Knowing the changes would happen, I would've chosen different races for almost all of my 14 toons. I had a Breton magsorc that I used for pvp. Ended up race-changing for argonian because sustain is king in pvp. Well Breton looks like it will have better sustain and damage so I wouldn't have bothered switching.

I have a Dunmer magwarden, with that fire damage and double fire staves, my damage was really good. It is still going to perform very well but it would perform better being another race. They were chosen because they had an edge, not because I liked Dunmers.

I don't know, I love the changes and love to see that it is way more balanced now as far as races go. I'm just annoyed because I wouldn't have picked this race for this class and this other race for this other class and if I want to change well, spit out the cash.

susmitds

cheifsoap wrote: »

richo262 wrote: »

As expected, ZOS did a great job with balance. Pity the iconic Dunmer mDK had to be hit so hard.

You're kidding, right? Nord, Argonian, and Imperial are trash for DPS. You call that balanced? or simply balanced across the "DPS" races?

All races are not meant to perform DD roles in the best degree. Still the difference is very limited to around 1-2k, considering you are hitting great numbers. If tanky races had DPS in range of say 500 of the BiS races, nobody would bother running anything else.

Apart from a few things, this is as close as it gets to a balanced racial stability.

susmitds

CleymenZero wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

CleymenZero wrote: »

Intextio wrote: »

So is the lynch mob going to calm down now, or are they just going to keep screaming bloody murder?

hmm I don't know.... Do you have magicka toons that are Dunmer? I do... ZOS creating an expense for me is kind of a *** move. We'll see what changes they'll make.

Oh, based on his analysis, Altmer is very good at magDPS but Breton is better.... Who the heck played Breton as magDPS in the end game community?

So for now, magDPS is mostly Breton except on magplar where Khajit would be better. The best damage magDPS, Dunmer, is now one of the best stam. Altmer, which was pretty much on par or barely lower than Dunmer as magDPS is very good but not the best. Orc, a race nobody ever played in PvE is now one of the best stam. Redguard, well, most stams were redguard and now Dunmer is more versatile...

I don't know. I love the changes but all I see here is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Hard to accept since it involves money. I keep saying that I wouldn't mind grinding another skills line, buying a chapter. I'd spend money to get content. The race-change thing costs real world money and those changes, although very fun, will probably make them a load of money but you have to wonder if this whole thing was intentional.

What I get right now is people who didn't min-max don't care and people who min-max are either cautious because changes can be made or pissed because they'll have to pay to race-change.

The difference between Altmer and Breton Magicka DPS is tiny, not even worth mentioning. The DPS difference is <500, in some cases it's just 200 DPS which is not even a 0.5% difference. This is almost perfect balancing. And there is still complaining that Breton might be better than Altmer for Magicka DPS? The difference between "best Magicka race" and "worst Magicka race" is ~ 1.5k DPS (~2.5%). It's hilarious that anybody considers race changes because of an average 1000 more or less DPS.

The meta barely changed, if at all.

- Khajiit & Dunmer are the most versatile races, excelling in both Magicka and Stamina

- All of the Magicka races are very close together

- All of the Stamina races are very close together

- Argonian, Imperials and Nord are "underperforming" DPS wise due to their nature of being better tank races

The only complaint that I can understand is about Imperials underperforming overall which can easily be fixed by a small buff. All the other racial changes are - surprise surprise - excellent when it comes to balance.

It says raid buff but there's no Warhorn. If Khajit is very close or the same on the dummy, that 8% crit with good Warhorn uptime will shoot it forward. In long fights, Breton will win hands down if they are close to altmer on the dummy.

This is great data and I admit that the changes are great. The fact that, if you want to adjust to meta, it is tied to real world money is freaking annoying.

I wouldn't complain if they had, let's say, à token pack of 6 for 6k or they included 5-6 token with the prepurchase of Elsweyr but I'm annoyed but the monetary implications.

I know they're here to make money but the changes to the meta I've seen (playing since Morrowind) , as small as they were, never implicated real world money. This is different. Knowing the changes would happen, I would've chosen different races for almost all of my 14 toons. I had a Breton magsorc that I used for pvp. Ended up race-changing for argonian because sustain is king in pvp. Well Breton looks like it will have better sustain and damage so I wouldn't have bothered switching.

I have a Dunmer magwarden, with that fire damage and double fire staves, my damage was really good. It is still going to perform very well but it would perform better being another race. They were chosen because they had an edge, not because I liked Dunmers.

I don't know, I love the changes and love to see that it is way more balanced now as far as races go. I'm just annoyed because I wouldn't have picked this race for this class and this other race for this other class and if I want to change well, spit out the cash.

@CleymenZero Uum, I mentioned Major Force, which comes from Warhorn. There is 100% Uptime of Warhorn with 38 secs of Major Force uptime as I mentioned in the test.

Lord_Eomer

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

nsmurfer wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Highly doubt especially on Altmers not being excellent, you are calling Breton excellent which lack 258 spell damage on theory so buffed 258 spell damage in group not performing even excellent?

Something wrong with you results.

Infused Berserker enchantment+100 mag recovery+8% cost reduction > 200 conditional regen+Infused Absorb Stamina.

He gave breton 10 and altmer 9 which is virtually the same in practice.

Can not agree with you,

258 SD of Altmers is either not working or worth nothing as per you?

In group buff no doubt Altmers surpass Breton.

Do you not understand how enchantments work?

Do you not understand how sustain work in raids?

Also weapon enchantment uptime in not 100%

ElliottXO

Silver_Strider wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

Hold your horses everyone.

Nord, Imperial and Argonian are not competing amongst DD, so in this regard they also don't need a buff.

You can't have tanking advantages and competitive DD roles at the same time.

The best end game tank play a Khajiit... Yes you read that right... a Khajiit... therefore tanking passives mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things.

"tanking advantages", good one.

I am glad to know that you are the authority to decide on who the best tank is.

Following your argument all racial passives mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things, which can also be derived from the OPs results.

In the end we are debating here about 3-5% performance in any role.

Pretty sure if you ask most people who the best tank is they would say Woeler as well, the dude has an entire website to tanking which I am sure every tank starting off has went to st some point for information.

https://woeler.eu/

I think you don't get the point here. My question is: would Woeler perform worse if he would chose Nord instead of Khajit?

You say tanking racials don't matter. I say, if tanking racials don't matter then no racials matter.

Tanking racials don't matter. If they did Nord wouldn't have been bottom tier in literally everything for years, being completely outstripped by every other race in practically everything.

Let's take your example and flip it for DPS or Healing; Would you perform worse for picking Nord instead of Khajiit. The answer is a big fat YES.

You are mixing up nord old racials with nord new racials. Nobody says the old nord racials were superior for tanking. That's why I said he wouldn't be any worse if he'd pick nord instead of khajit.

Now if he picks new nord racials he would be a better tank to a degree that you could hardly measure.

susmitds

@Lord_Dexter Altmer indeed gets higher max parses than Breton. However, sustain tends to make high parses more consistent, especially if it works by decreasing drain.
Also, even with sustain support, in dynamic fights or for that most static fights, you will need Absorb Magicka enchant on all races except Breton. It is far better option than to drop Blue food. You can use Berserker enchant but then you are risking heavies in the execute phase, which is the most important phase for DPS, magnified by Bloodthirsty. Even the top raids tend to use Absorb Magicka.
Infused backbar enchant with vMA should have 90%+ uptime.

IronWooshu

susmitds wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Tanking racials don't matter. If they did Nord wouldn't have been bottom tier in literally everything for years, being completely outstripped by every other race in practically everything.

Let's take your example and flip it for DPS or Healing; Would you perform worse for picking Nord instead of Khajiit. The answer is a big fat YES.

Let me clear things out things out a bit.

Lets see the effect of a good tanking race on average parses with Warhorn.

Nord Ultimate gen passive = 0.5
Ultimate from replacing Resist sets with Bloodspawn = 1.2 Avg

Khajiit Tank ultigen - 3.6 give or take (Taking base regen and Minor Heroism with high uptime into account)
Nord Tank ultigen - 3.6+0.5+1.2 = 5.3

Khajiit Major Force Uptime per 10 minutes - 600/(250/3.6) * 9.5 = 82 secs approx
Nord Major Force Uptime per 10 minutes - 600/(250/5.3) * 9.5 = 120 secs approx

Khajiit Stat Boost Uptime per 10 minutes - 600/(250/3.6) * 30 = 260 secs approx
Nord Stat Boost Uptime per 10 minutes - 600/(250/5.3) * 30 = 381 secs approx

Major Force = 10% boost to DPS approx on average
Stat Boost = 2%-5% boost to DPS approx on average = 3.5%

Let's consider 8 DPS doing 60K DPS without Warhorn.
Total unboosted DPS = 480k

Khajiit Tank DPS Boost = 480000*0.1*82/600+480000*0.035*260/600 = 13840
Nord Tank DPS Boost = 480000*0.1*120/600+480000*0.035*381/600 = 20268

That's 6.5K more DPS that a single Nord can indirectly add to a group. The value may change either lesser or greater, but it will always be there.

Which do you think is more valuable, 1K direct DPS or 6.5K indirect DPS to group along with sustain benefits of higher resource reserve uptime?

Also considering, BiS tanks are DKs, the ultimate gen also converts to higher sustain.

Sure, tanking cannot be objectively compared, but it can always be subjectively compared.

You know what's going to happen, Nords are going to be pushed into healers for warhorn while Redguards become the defacto #1 tank race due to that unbelievable sustain which will allow them to essentially permablock especially when their skill cost is reduced by so much.

Asides the enviable of what I explained that ultimate regen is a joke being based off taking damage rather than just being in combat. If they made it when in combat it would work better for DPS and Healing roles especially the latter since we all know where Nords are gonna be pidgeon holed into.

This BiS tank talk is not the case when Redguard is way better.

susmitds

IronWooshu wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Tanking racials don't matter. If they did Nord wouldn't have been bottom tier in literally everything for years, being completely outstripped by every other race in practically everything.

Let's take your example and flip it for DPS or Healing; Would you perform worse for picking Nord instead of Khajiit. The answer is a big fat YES.

Let me clear things out things out a bit.

Lets see the effect of a good tanking race on average parses with Warhorn.

Nord Ultimate gen passive = 0.5
Ultimate from replacing Resist sets with Bloodspawn = 1.2 Avg

Khajiit Tank ultigen - 3.6 give or take (Taking base regen and Minor Heroism with high uptime into account)
Nord Tank ultigen - 3.6+0.5+1.2 = 5.3

Khajiit Major Force Uptime per 10 minutes - 600/(250/3.6) * 9.5 = 82 secs approx
Nord Major Force Uptime per 10 minutes - 600/(250/5.3) * 9.5 = 120 secs approx

Khajiit Stat Boost Uptime per 10 minutes - 600/(250/3.6) * 30 = 260 secs approx
Nord Stat Boost Uptime per 10 minutes - 600/(250/5.3) * 30 = 381 secs approx

Major Force = 10% boost to DPS approx on average
Stat Boost = 2%-5% boost to DPS approx on average = 3.5%

Let's consider 8 DPS doing 60K DPS without Warhorn.
Total unboosted DPS = 480k

Khajiit Tank DPS Boost = 480000*0.1*82/600+480000*0.035*260/600 = 13840
Nord Tank DPS Boost = 480000*0.1*120/600+480000*0.035*381/600 = 20268

That's 6.5K more DPS that a single Nord can indirectly add to a group. The value may change either lesser or greater, but it will always be there.

Which do you think is more valuable, 1K direct DPS or 6.5K indirect DPS to group along with sustain benefits of higher resource reserve uptime?

Also considering, BiS tanks are DKs, the ultimate gen also converts to higher sustain.

Sure, tanking cannot be objectively compared, but it can always be subjectively compared.

You know what's going to happen, Nords are going to be pushed into healers for warhorn while Redguards become the defacto #1 tank race due to that unbelievable sustain which will allow them to essentially permablock especially when their skill cost is reduced by so much.

Asides the enviable of what I explained that ultimate regen is a joke being based off taking damage rather than just being in combat. If they made it when in combat it would work better for DPS and Healing roles especially the latter since we all know where Nords are gonna be pidgeon holed into.

This BiS tank talk is not the case when Redguard is way better.

Yes, I can see Redguard becoming a great Tanking race. However, I would say Nord are still better than with sustain support, Nord DKs can permablock, especially as now they will get to use Magicka to block on back bar. Nords are the only race that affect group DPS directly. Everything else can be made with skill. Every single Nord in the group, bring higher Major Force uptime. I know, certain groups will sqeeze every last DPS out of the group.

MLGProPlayer

John_Falstaff wrote: »

I frankly don't feel that high variance in khajiit parses is completely explained by the extra 8% of crit; if anything, such variance would be showing on live too for stamina khajiit builds (and I don't see such huge spread in my parses, even when I rely on axe bleed). On a small sample size like that (and not belittling @susmitds here, he'd done huge work and gave most insight than others on new state of things) some of that is just play of RNG that could have happened with any other race, but in this case did not.

Liko got the same variance in their tests. You always see that with crit builds.