Buddy_the_Guy wrote: »

I'm okay with ZOS giving the cat-people a 5m reduced detection radius, since they are sneaky cats, but, completely removing it from the hunter elf-people just doesn't make any sense. I mean, "Hunters never use camouflage to sneak up on, or ambush, prey.", said nobody...ever. Bosmers should retain their 3m reduced detection radius, in place of the increase in stealth detection.

Along the same lines, I never really understood ZOS's decision to give the cat-people, with claws for fingernails, a pickpocket bonus and the petite elf-people a reduction to fall damage. If one applies thinking to this, the cat-people should get the fall damage reduction and the elf-people should get the pickpocket bonus. I guess that's my bad for trying to apply logic and reason in this day and age.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

I like the changes in all.
But (why must there always be a but?^^): tbh redguard is op. why do u not have the ability to see this? now you have a delta again. Adrenalin rush is like 380 stam reg. woodelf which was the stam reg master only gets 258!?
6% max stat now goes to +2000 for most classes. for orc its just 500??

He lost his 9% Stamregpassiva...thats about 162 all 2 seconds. Redguard got a nerf.

Redguard's Adrenaline is getting an extra 158 Stam every 5 seconds on top of 8% cost reduction, they got a buff. Cost Reduction will make more of a difference in PvE builds especially where you run very low Recovery builds.

jlb1705 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Only one I'm worried about is the Redguard. Given how hard that race is pushed as "The Choice for StamDPS," buffing Adrenaline Rush feels like a mistake.

Is it not balanced by this part though?:

Exhilaration: 9% Stamina Recovery → Martial Training: Reduces the cost of your Weapon abilities by 8%.

This line is definitely a nerf - not just the difference between 9% and 8%, but the difference between passive recovery and cost reduction to only weapon skills. It sounds like the cost reduction wouldn't apply to things like Surprise Attack, Killer's Blade, Relentless Focus, Razor Caltrops, Resolving Vigor, Rearming Trap, etc.

JobooAGS wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

I like the changes in all.
But (why must there always be a but?^^): tbh redguard is op. why do u not have the ability to see this? now you have a delta again. Adrenalin rush is like 380 stam reg. woodelf which was the stam reg master only gets 258!?
6% max stat now goes to +2000 for most classes. for orc its just 500??

He lost his 9% Stamregpassiva...thats about 162 all 2 seconds. Redguard got a nerf.

Redguard's Adrenaline is getting an extra 158 Stam every 5 seconds on top of 8% cost reduction, they got a buff. Cost Reduction will make more of a difference in PvE builds especially where you run very low Recovery builds.

Pve bosmer nb with 258 regen
258(1+.15 nb +.1 relentless +.28 med armor + .15 cp + .2 potion) = 485 regen which is 105 greater than adreniline rush.

Add in vampire and you get 511 regen from the 258 regen which is 131 regen more than adreniline rush. Best yet, as long as you are not blocking, this regen is free meanwhile to get the full value out of redguard you need to be constsntly attacking and a perfect rotation (if you wany the full benefit from the 8% weapon ability cost reduction).

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:



This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:



This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.

I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.

And btw, this was not done with a calculator like you seemingly did. It was by actually comparing the tooltips.

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:



This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.

I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.

huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.

No, I loose over 1700 magicka. For your build, that might be the case. But not everyone uses your build and not everyone is a nightblade with mostly magic damage. It will be a nerf for many builds that do no follow your streamline.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

thesoundofwolf wrote: »

I keep refreshing the top of the thread hoping that these changes for dunmer would be like 'APRIL FOOLS' or something, because say it isn't SOOOO!

The extra wpn and spell dmg is much better than the 7% extra flame dmg even in DK:

1. Your heals are better
2. your magic dmg will be much better (that includes using elements outside flame)
3. Your stamina pool will be much higher too, which is useful for block casting
4. Your bashes will be stronger (through weapon dmg)
5. On a HA dunmer, the health pool will be higher at 0 cost (at least 1 k if you consider juggernaut)
6. Finally what I've bees saying since some days: It is quite likely that the extra flame dmg is moved FROM dunmer to DK to make it similar to the energized passive of sorc. That was the main reason why DK didn't have a direct boost in their flame dmg, since a 12% extra dmg on dunmer DK was overkill

The only guys loosing here are those who liked to fight against a doll and show their numbers (as if they should mean something)...

Now dunmer coldblade is much more viable than before.

An Altmer would benefit more from being a DK, though.

1. Their heals are better, too.
2. Their magic damage will be better.
3. Their magic pool is higher- so it increases their damage and sustain.
4. They receive a passive regen for every time they cast a class ability... which DKs cast A LOT of class abilities.
5. On a HA character, the health pool is higher regardless. 500 health isn't really going to make or break a character.
6. You're overlooking the fact that even if ZOS moves flame damage from Dunmer to DK- then Altmer DKs would benefit from the extra flame damage, too.

Masel wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

thesoundofwolf wrote: »

I keep refreshing the top of the thread hoping that these changes for dunmer would be like 'APRIL FOOLS' or something, because say it isn't SOOOO!

The extra wpn and spell dmg is much better than the 7% extra flame dmg even in DK:

1. Your heals are better
2. your magic dmg will be much better (that includes using elements outside flame)
3. Your stamina pool will be much higher too, which is useful for block casting
4. Your bashes will be stronger (through weapon dmg)
5. On a HA dunmer, the health pool will be higher at 0 cost (at least 1 k if you consider juggernaut)
6. Finally what I've bees saying since some days: It is quite likely that the extra flame dmg is moved FROM dunmer to DK to make it similar to the energized passive of sorc. That was the main reason why DK didn't have a direct boost in their flame dmg, since a 12% extra dmg on dunmer DK was overkill

The only guys loosing here are those who liked to fight against a doll and show their numbers (as if they should mean something)...

Now dunmer coldblade is much more viable than before.

An Altmer would benefit more from being a DK, though.

1. Their heals are better, too.
2. Their magic damage will be better.
3. Their magic pool is higher- so it increases their damage and sustain.
4. They receive a passive regen for every time they cast a class ability... which DKs cast A LOT of class abilities.
5. On a HA character, the health pool is higher regardless. 500 health isn't really going to make or break a character.
6. You're overlooking the fact that even if ZOS moves flame damage from Dunmer to DK- then Altmer DKs would benefit from the extra flame damage, too.

The Dunmer vs. Altmerp point is definetely a valid one, and I hope we can find a solution for it somehow.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

thesoundofwolf wrote: »

I keep refreshing the top of the thread hoping that these changes for dunmer would be like 'APRIL FOOLS' or something, because say it isn't SOOOO!

The extra wpn and spell dmg is much better than the 7% extra flame dmg even in DK:

1. Your heals are better
2. your magic dmg will be much better (that includes using elements outside flame)
3. Your stamina pool will be much higher too, which is useful for block casting
4. Your bashes will be stronger (through weapon dmg)
5. On a HA dunmer, the health pool will be higher at 0 cost (at least 1 k if you consider juggernaut)
6. Finally what I've bees saying since some days: It is quite likely that the extra flame dmg is moved FROM dunmer to DK to make it similar to the energized passive of sorc. That was the main reason why DK didn't have a direct boost in their flame dmg, since a 12% extra dmg on dunmer DK was overkill

The only guys loosing here are those who liked to fight against a doll and show their numbers (as if they should mean something)...

Now dunmer coldblade is much more viable than before.

An Altmer would benefit more from being a DK, though.

1. Their heals are better, too.
2. Their magic damage will be better.
3. Their magic pool is higher- so it increases their damage and sustain.
4. They receive a passive regen for every time they cast a class ability... which DKs cast A LOT of class abilities.
5. On a HA character, the health pool is higher regardless. 500 health isn't really going to make or break a character.
6. You're overlooking the fact that even if ZOS moves flame damage from Dunmer to DK- then Altmer DKs would benefit from the extra flame damage, too.

The Dunmer vs. Altmerp point is definetely a valid one, and I hope we can find a solution for it somehow.

@Masel @zos_gilliam

One thing that I did notice was that Altmer has one caveat in its passives that push it toward a sorc build:

" Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time." DKs don't have a channeled ability... but Sorcs have the most out of all the classes. I wonder if this passive was specially built for Altmer Sorcs in mind. (I know that there are other abilities that have channels... but this is just used for comparison)

So why not give Dunmer something like "Increases spell/weapon damage by 100 on enemies with an elemental/physical status effect"

That way, it slightly increases damage against enemies if you have chilled, concussed, poisoned, diseased, or burning against them. It still allows a Dunmer to be a hybrid and slightly closes the gap between the damage dealers.

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:



This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.

I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.

huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.

No, I loose over 1700 magicka. For your build, that might be the case. But not everyone uses your build and not everyone is a nightblade with mostly magic damage. It will be a nerf for many builds that do no follow your streamline.

Okay i am intrigued how you tested that. Explain to me how you lost 1700 magicka...

What am I supposed to explain ? The fact that gift of Magnus gives me 4237 magicka ?

In order to get to a loss of 1.7k you have to have over 70k magicka. i tried stacking as much as i could into max magicka and i couldnt get there. I'm sorry, but i trust the UESP guys and Combat Devs more than your own test.

Even IF you lose that 1700 magicka, you still get a return in exchange. On a sorcerer, 258 spell damage get boosted a lot (by major+minor sorcery+2% for every class skill on your bar) and even on a pet sorc it will most likely net you the same damage as before, simply because 258 spell damage outperform 4% damage done in CP content.