Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21

BlueRaven · January 2019

Are these race changes suggestions or is this what they are probably going to be?

The reason I ask is because I get the impression the developers rarely change their minds in “beta”, and if they do change something it’s usually after it goes live.

Masel · January 2019

Lovelocke wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

@Moonsorrow These changes were supervised by high end raidplayers. So this comes as no surprise and I wouldn't mind it, if these changes wouldn't seem so selfish. They may be favorable for 5%, but ignore the other 95%.

I am baffled by your statements. You accuse all of us to be biased and only think of PvE, even though we have a few very good PvP players among the reps that actually welcome these changes. I'll let you think whatever you want... I don't have the time or nerve to try and convince people that do not want to be convinced.

I appreciate your posts. I think the maths behind these changes is quite complicated and people are taking a simplistic view, deducting one figure from another and believing that's all there is to it. You've tried to explain the finer details, so thank you.

I mean we are already in another feedback round with the devs and there will probably be further adjustments yo these skills, based on the feedback we received already. It is not even on pts yet and many people already lose their minds... for everyone here believing they were nerfed by this in this or that way. Nobody claimed that changes make every race better in every situation. The goal was to reach a better balance between them and from what I see, the devs have exactly the same goal, without turning this into a cashgrab.

So instead of accusing us to be biased, people should go on the pts on monday, test their actual damage output, and then come back with profound feedback that we can actually use.

To @Moonsorrow, the scenarios you mentioned are very specific, 3960 resistance mitigates all damage but bleeds, and if you value that more than a universally useful passive, then you are basics cherrypicking that one scenario where you might feel nerfed, but neglect that 3960 resistance does not suffer from diminishing returns in mitigation as the 6% damage taken does and mitigates everything else a lot better than the other passive.

To the khajiit statement I can repeat that one to one. In the context of troll king you might feel nerfed, but in exchange for the 20% health recovery you got magicka recovery and retain a value of health recovery that is higher in any scenario where troll king is not active. Magicka recovery is a very important thing in PvP, even on stamina builds.

Deathlord92 · January 2019

heavier wrote: »

the largest saltstorm of all times

It’s all about races this was going to happen very sensitive matter 😂

Deathlord92 · January 2019

I would like to mention again zos please keep Breton spell resistance at 3960 it makes no sense nord having more spell lore wise or logic as Breton a nord/altmer thank you 🙂

megageeklizzy · January 2019

@ZOS_Gilliam
Any news on whether you guys are even looking at this? Dev tracker is pretty quiet...hard to tell if you're just ignoring us or working desperately to get through 41 pages of complaints. A "we're considering changing things" would be nice. Or even a "don't waste your time figuring out stats, we're gonna do what we're gonna do, YOLO". Just so we'd know.

Again, not that it matters for those of us who RP, as we're just going to be stuck with really bad stats if you go through with this. We're at your mercy as far as these racial changes, but you're at our mercy as far as sales. Not everyone is willing to shell out more money. Some of us will just stop doing new content that will be further and further out of reach. Not that I ever buy the dungeon DLCs anyway, but maybe I'll stop subbing, too.

Not trying to be totally negative, as I know there's a lot going on with development right now, and it takes time to come up with new changes. I just really think you're making a mistake here and would like to know if you have any plan to rectify it.

Dracane · January 2019

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

@Moonsorrow These changes were supervised by high end raidplayers. So this comes as no surprise and I wouldn't mind it, if these changes wouldn't seem so selfish. They may be favorable for 5%, but ignore the other 95%.

I am baffled by your statements. You accuse all of us to be biased and only think of PvE, even though we have a few very good PvP players among the reps that actually welcome these changes. I'll let you think whatever you want... I don't have the time or nerve to try and convince people that do not want to be convinced.

I am sorry if I stretch your nerves. I am just trying to have a conversation.
The thing is, that I do want to be convinced. I merely do not see the reality behind your math, which makes it not convincing to me.

You yourself even said that these changes are supposed to be a buff when you are in a raid with all buffs applied. So how does this not aim at pushing those few players who are in such a scenario ? I think you are contradicting yourself. From a pvp perspective, these changes are very obviously not a good thing. So far we have only talked about pure damage output. In pvp, due to loosing a considerable amount of magicka, not only damage may be affected, but definately sustain and shield strenght.

So many pvp builds, if not all to be honest, will be weaker after that. Hence I really can not see how your pvper's could appreciate this.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2019

@Dracane The thing is, that I do want to be convinced. I merely do not see the reality behind your math, which makes it not convincing to me.

Says the guy with exactly zero calculations in their posts. Just end numbers that we have no idea how you got there, we have asked repeatedly for how you got those numbers and you have provided no Superstar or combat metrics. Therefore I have no reason to believe you.

.You yourself even said that these changes are supposed to be a buff when you are in a raid with all buffs applied.

*Citation needed

vesselwiththepestle · January 2019

"Martial Training: Reduces the cost of your Weapon abilities by 8%."

This applies to destruction staff and restoration staff, too, doesn't it?

Dracane · January 2019

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Dracane The thing is, that I do want to be convinced. I merely do not see the reality behind your math, which makes it not convincing to me.

Says the guy with exactly zero calculations in their posts. Just end numbers that we have no idea how you got there and therefore have no reason to believe you.

.You yourself even said that these changes are supposed to be a buff when you are in a raid with all buffs applied.

*Citation needed

You really are an exceptionally aggressive individual.
I went into detail how I got my numbers. (other people just post a number and you believe it without evidence ? Clearly bias) This is no rocket science. O.o
Things like these are very easy to test and the results speak for themselves, as they are absolutely undeniable. While wild calculator hypothesis are indeed hard to follow and as we see, end up being wrong. (That is ESOs fault, not ours)

Masel · January 2019

Dracane wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Dracane The thing is, that I do want to be convinced. I merely do not see the reality behind your math, which makes it not convincing to me.

Says the guy with exactly zero calculations in their posts. Just end numbers that we have no idea how you got there and therefore have no reason to believe you.

.You yourself even said that these changes are supposed to be a buff when you are in a raid with all buffs applied.

*Citation needed

You really are an exceptionally aggressive specimen.
I went into detail how I got my numbers. (other people just post a number and you believe it without evidence ? Clearly bias) This is no rocket science. O.o
Things like these are very easy to test and the results speak for themselves, as they are absolutely undeniable. While wild calculator hypothesis are indeed hard to follow and as we see, end up being wrong. (That is ESOs fault, not ours)

The statement that these are obviously a nerf for pvp must be proven. Even if you lose a little bit max stamina and magicka, then the other passives make up for that 100%. Altmer recovery is more useful in comparison to the old 9%, so is their 258 spell damage compared to the damage done they had before, simply because it also affects healing. Breton sustain got buffed hard, dunmer also has the additional healing benefit. There is no objective reason to see these changes as a universal nerf to PvP builds at all. There may be scenarios where a specific passive is weaker in a context where you just focus on that one passive, but you get other passives in exchange that make up for the loss In that regard.

In terms of stat density (meaning the total sum of all stats provided by the races) the only race that was reduced was Argonian. All the rest were made better, or to rephrase it, more versatile. A magicka dk doesn't have to be a dunmer anymore to reach the highest damage, they may well choose to be a Breton or altmer or even khajiit if they want critical chance or more sustain.

John_Falstaff · January 2019

@Masel , I feel that having both recoveries - magicka and stamina - is an advantage with narrow scope, and mostly from PvP world (where khajiits will feel the nerf to Troll King builds more than they feel improvement from added non-primary stat regen). And in PvE, non-primary stat regen (let alone crit) is mostly a useless trinket - so that makes us jacks of all trades, masters of none; hybrid builds don't have any niche in PvE.

Granted, khajiits got a great buff, but not the sort of buff that makes them better, but rather a sort that makes them more versatile. Other races got better in what they do (for some that thing changed, granted), springing to top places in either magicka or stamina, and khajiits fell back by comparison, to "works too" place. It's sure a great improvements for all magicka khajiits out there (and it's an awesome thing), but if the goal was to bring races to relative balance of combat power, I feel they're still not there yet, because being given an option to choose either doesn't easily translate into combat power in chosen specialization.

Sure, it's yet to be seen how they'll perform on PTS, so holding fingers crossed. I keep hope that khajiits won't get left behind right on the eve of their own expansion's release.

Dracane · January 2019

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Dracane The thing is, that I do want to be convinced. I merely do not see the reality behind your math, which makes it not convincing to me.

Says the guy with exactly zero calculations in their posts. Just end numbers that we have no idea how you got there and therefore have no reason to believe you.

.You yourself even said that these changes are supposed to be a buff when you are in a raid with all buffs applied.

*Citation needed

You really are an exceptionally aggressive specimen.
I went into detail how I got my numbers. (other people just post a number and you believe it without evidence ? Clearly bias) This is no rocket science. O.o
Things like these are very easy to test and the results speak for themselves, as they are absolutely undeniable. While wild calculator hypothesis are indeed hard to follow and as we see, end up being wrong. (That is ESOs fault, not ours)

The statement that these are obviously a nerf for pvp must be proven. Even if you lose a little bit max stamina and magicka, then the other passives make up for that 100%. Altmer recovery is more useful in comparison to the old 9%, so is their 258 spell damage compared to the damage done they had before, simply because it also affects healing. Breton sustain got buffed hard, dunmer also has the additional healing benefit. There is no objective reason to see these changes as a universal nerf to PvP builds at all. There may be scenarios where a specific passive is weaker in a context where you just focus on that one passive, but you get other passives in exchange that make up for the loss In that regard.

In terms of stat density (meaning the total sum of all stats provided by the races) the only race that was reduced was Argonian. All the rest were made better, or to rephrase it, more versatile. A magicka dk doesn't have to be a dunmer anymore to reach the highest damage, they may well choose to be a Breton or altmer or even khajiit if they want critical chance or more sustain.

We shall see, yes. I can only base my statements on what I have at hand and right now, that is all I can offer to the discussion.
We definately will test this in and out once PTS comes and then I believe, we shall be able to provide you better.

At the end of the day, I must live with being weakened in the scenarios that matter for me personally. But I stand behind the hierarchy that you are pushing. (The hierarchy you have provided in your stat table.) It is lore friendly and as you know, I care more for lore correctness than anything else.

So I will be able to rest in peace, I am merely upset about being weaker than now.

gp1680 · January 2019

Twohothardware wrote: »

Iarao wrote: »

gp1680 wrote: »

Seems like ZOS just rearranging deck chairs in order to sell race change tokens, tbh. It astounds me how these devs think it necessary to spend so much time on this racial crap while the performance of parts of their game stinks to high heaven and they do nothing.

totally agree. total cash grab here.

A number of us have had long threads going nearly every PTS cycle for over a year and a half asking ZOS for Race balancing because of how pigeon holed the Race meta had become.

Redguard and Argonian advantages weren't just a few hundred points difference in DPS. It was the difference in being able to completely sustain top DPS rotations without any heavy attacks on Redguard vs struggling on most other Stam races and on Argonian being able to sustain without any effort as a tank or in PvP being able to instantly recover from near death with huge bursts of resources and healing making any class instantly easier to compete on. Argonian became even worse when they introduced the Infused Jewelry with potion cooldown glyphs in Summerset.

Half of the player base didn't start switching this past year to what had been previously considered the ugliest race in the game just because.

So the solution is just to shift meta from one race to another? I don’t believe that’s a solution. There are hundreds of worthless sets in this game that could be altered or buffed to help “enhance” weaknesses in some races. Instead, ZOS chooses to make racial changes.

Masel · January 2019

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Masel , I feel that having both recoveries - magicka and stamina - is an advantage with narrow scope, and mostly from PvP world (where khajiits will feel the nerf to Troll King builds more than they feel improvement from added non-primary stat regen). And in PvE, non-primary stat regen (let alone crit) is mostly a useless trinket - so that makes us jacks of all trades, masters of none; hybrid builds don't have any niche in PvE.

Granted, khajiits got a great buff, but not the sort of buff that makes them better, but rather a sort that makes them more versatile. Other races got better in what they do (for some that thing changed, granted), springing to top places in either magicka or stamina, and khajiits fell back by comparison, to "works too" place. It's sure a great improvements for all magicka khajiits out there (and it's an awesome thing), but if the goal was to bring races to relative balance of combat power, I feel they're still not there yet, because being given an option to choose either doesn't easily translate into combat power in chosen specialization.

Sure, it's yet to be seen how they'll perform on PTS, so holding fingers crossed. I keep hope that khajiits won't get left behind right on the eve of their own expansion's release.

Khajiit will hit good numbers in pve, especially on nightblades and Templars due to the critical damage passive.

PvP-wise they also got additional maximum resources, something that is very welcome. On a stamsorc the extra magicka recovery is enabling to do an extra dark deal or to keep your surge up more easily, and the extra magicka helps to cast more dark deals under pressure.

Same holds for stamplars, you can cleanse more often with ritual for example and then you don't need troll king as much as before.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2019

Dracane wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Dracane The thing is, that I do want to be convinced. I merely do not see the reality behind your math, which makes it not convincing to me.

Says the guy with exactly zero calculations in their posts. Just end numbers that we have no idea how you got there and therefore have no reason to believe you.

.You yourself even said that these changes are supposed to be a buff when you are in a raid with all buffs applied.

*Citation needed

You really are an exceptionally aggressive individual.

I went into detail how I got my numbers.

Where? Here is every one of your comments from the last three pages

Dracane wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Pretty good, overall.

Breton looks like it needs a bit more work to bring it up to par with High Elf.

It does not. Bretons are not on par with high elves lore wise and they must not be here either. They are have more than they should have. They are but Half Mer.

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:

This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.

I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.

And btw, this was not done with a calculator like you seemingly did. It was by actually comparing the tooltips.

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:

This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.

I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.

huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.

No, I loose over 1700 magicka. For your build, that might be the case. But not everyone uses your build and not everyone is a nightblade with mostly magic damage. It will be a nerf for many builds that do no follow your streamline.

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:

This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.

I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.

huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.

No, I loose over 1700 magicka. For your build, that might be the case. But not everyone uses your build and not everyone is a nightblade with mostly magic damage. It will be a nerf for many builds that do no follow your streamline.

Okay i am intrigued how you tested that. Explain to me how you lost 1700 magicka...

What am I supposed to explain ? The fact that gift of Magnus gives me 4237 magicka ?

In order to get to a loss of 1.7k you have to have over 70k magicka. i tried stacking as much as i could into max magicka and i couldnt get there. I'm sorry, but i trust the UESP guys and Combat Devs more than your own test.

Even IF you lose that 1700 magicka, you still get a return in exchange. On a sorcerer, 258 spell damage get boosted a lot (by major+minor sorcery+2% for every class skill on your bar) and even on a pet sorc it will most likely net you the same damage as before, simply because 258 spell damage outperform 4% damage done in CP content.

Then I have no clue how you came up with this. With 48k magicka, nothing fancy, 10% GoM gives me 4200 magicka. In pve it will be even more. I really don't know how you calculate those numbers. I can only say, it should be done rather than calculated.

Dracane wrote: »

@Masel I have made a more careful test now and I am beginning to believe, you try to deceive people.

My magicka with Gift of Magnus is 48,898
Orginally I just slotted a mages ability (2%) magicka and took it by 5 which is 10%. I thought, maybe it does scale differently. But no, I was right. I removed gift of magnus and ended up with 44,655 Magicka, that is a 4213 difference !

Then I wanted to see how much magicka 2000 will end up being. I thought bright throats was perfect for this, as it gives 2000 magicka. But it turned out that Bright throats is bugged and its 2000 magicka do not scale, they remain roughly 2000 magicka (fix it maybe? )

So I had to take 2 monster sets, which is a bit unprecise. But the number was roughly 2500. Hence I loose 1700 magicka and mind you, that is my pvp setup. The loss will be higher in pve where I have more magicka. Everyone has such magicka numbers in pve and everyone will loose the same amount as I do and everyone who actually tests this, will see this as well. A calculator theory will not reveal the truth. (eso's math is too messy to even be predicted)

Now a final test, to show you that Altmer will be nerfed by this.
Let us take force pulse as an example. My force pulse without 4% elemental damage, deals 2993 per element. (No glyph damage) With 4% added, it's 3081 (As I said, actually TESTED, not calculated)
Then I equipped 2 spell damage monster sets which give me exactly 258 base damage. Added to this is major sorcery and those few percent that the Sorcerer passive gives me (6% for me here) Force pulse now deals 3096 per element.

That is 45 damage more compared to elemental talent. Good on the first glance, right ? But now we consider loosing 1700 magicka or more (Every normal build will loose that, as my magicka numbers are totally normal) We can see that elemental damage will definately be worse now. Sure, pure magic damage profits from that, aka Nightblades and Templars. But Sorcerer and Dk and I dare say Wardens, do not. Most of their damage is elemental and will be weaker.

My conclusion is, that current ressource values for races are too low, especially for magicka builds. Ressource values would be raised by at least 500 to not pose a nerf for our current setups.

Dracane wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

@Masel

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

If that only was true. Your examples are for generic pve builds so the flat bonus numbers are like counted from pretty much base and for pve dps point of view.

So.. when one goes to pvp builds, and have been using the % bonus strengths to each race to build high on them to make setup based on that, then adding other things according to it. There are BIG nerfs and you should not try to deny them, or have you all forgot pvp builds completely? Not everyone plays with generic youtube shackle/seventh/Blood Spawn builds at pvp. There are big nerfs and way less versatility now with the new flat number approach, since there are not many % based bonuses on sets.

Example: Nord, No-CP (Battlegrounds/Sotha Sil) : it had % based damage reduction, for pvp that actually did mitigate against bleeds, it had % Healthy Recovery. You could make big hp regen with that +20%. With the changes like these now on this preview. Nerfed in both cases.

Example: Khajiit. No-CP (Battlegrounds/Sotha Sil) : Health regen flat number +100 vs old +20% hp recovery. Now a simple question: Is old +20% hp recovery more with Troll King monster set, than the new +100? +20% wins by a large margin. Most of those type builds have more flat recovery bonuses on top of Troll King, so its even more.

I rest my case.

So what is "quite dangerous"? To let people know the truth that their pvp builds ARE getting nerfed and the flat values were clearly made for PVE base values in mind with low to average numbers in certain areas. Things will be nerfed hard on pvp builds. It is a fact.

That is my impression as well. I really mean no harm to anyone. Accusing someone is the last thing I want to do. But I can't help thinking that Masel tries to lie to us. All those calculations are not based on reality and are purely theoretical, hence not representative of the real results.

I think, they try to sell us nerfs as buffs.

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:

This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.

I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.

huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.

No, I loose over 1700 magicka. For your build, that might be the case. But not everyone uses your build and not everyone is a nightblade with mostly magic damage. It will be a nerf for many builds that do no follow your streamline.

Okay i am intrigued how you tested that. Explain to me how you lost 1700 magicka...

What am I supposed to explain ? The fact that gift of Magnus gives me 4237 magicka ?

In order to get to a loss of 1.7k you have to have over 70k magicka. i tried stacking as much as i could into max magicka and i couldnt get there. I'm sorry, but i trust the UESP guys and Combat Devs more than your own test.

Even IF you lose that 1700 magicka, you still get a return in exchange. On a sorcerer, 258 spell damage get boosted a lot (by major+minor sorcery+2% for every class skill on your bar) and even on a pet sorc it will most likely net you the same damage as before, simply because 258 spell damage outperform 4% damage done in CP content.

Then I have no clue how you came up with this. With 48k magicka, nothing fancy, 10% GoM gives me 4200 magicka. In pve it will be even more. I really don't know how you calculate those numbers. I can only say, it should be done rather than calculated.

It gives you 4200 magicka, i didnt debate that. Its just that the difference will not be 1700 magicka, especially in PvE, where you have more amplifiers than in solo/pvp content...

Dracane wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

@Masel

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

If that only was true. Your examples are for generic pve builds so the flat bonus numbers are like counted from pretty much base and for pve dps point of view.

So.. when one goes to pvp builds, and have been using the % bonus strengths to each race to build high on them to make setup based on that, then adding other things according to it. There are BIG nerfs and you should not try to deny them, or have you all forgot pvp builds completely? Not everyone plays with generic youtube shackle/seventh/Blood Spawn builds at pvp. There are big nerfs and way less versatility now with the new flat number approach, since there are not many % based bonuses on sets.

Example: Nord, No-CP (Battlegrounds/Sotha Sil) : it had % based damage reduction, for pvp that actually did mitigate against bleeds, it had % Healthy Recovery. You could make big hp regen with that +20%. With the changes like these now on this preview. Nerfed in both cases.

Example: Khajiit. No-CP (Battlegrounds/Sotha Sil) : Health regen flat number +100 vs old +20% hp recovery. Now a simple question: Is old +20% hp recovery more with Troll King monster set, than the new +100? +20% wins by a large margin. Most of those type builds have more flat recovery bonuses on top of Troll King, so its even more.

I rest my case.

So what is "quite dangerous"? To let people know the truth that their pvp builds ARE getting nerfed and the flat values were clearly made for PVE base values in mind with low to average numbers in certain areas. Things will be nerfed hard on pvp builds. It is a fact.

That is my impression as well. I really mean no harm to anyone. Accusing someone is the last thing I want to do. But I can't help thinking that Masel tries to lie to us. All those calculations are not based on reality and are purely theoretical, hence not representative of the real results.

I think, they try to sell us nerfs as buffs.

I try to lie to you? Good grief.

Please don't ride around on the negative. Why do you ignore the facts I have presented to you ?

Dracane wrote: »

@Moonsorrow These changes were supervised by high end raidplayers. So this comes as no surprise and I wouldn't mind it, if these changes wouldn't seem so selfish. They may be favorable for 5%, but ignore the other 95%.

Dracane wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

@Moonsorrow These changes were supervised by high end raidplayers. So this comes as no surprise and I wouldn't mind it, if these changes wouldn't seem so selfish. They may be favorable for 5%, but ignore the other 95%.

You are not the 95%. Your build is not average.

Yes, I am part of the 95%. Part of those people who are not high end raiders.
Everyone who is not them is the 95% and many of them will loose out more than they gain.

No where in that mess do you have a single full calculation or screenshot of your build or anything, just end numbers and you saying "well that just the way it is". Meanwhile @Masel has thread, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422268/a-comprehensive-guide-on-damage-dealing-in-elder-scrolls-online and all the information in it, which is completely tested and valid.

SodanTok · January 2019

@Dracane Can you share your build? I am really interested in where your numbers are coming from since even colossal 72k magicka build gets only 4897 magicka from current version of altmer passive.

Build:
Necro
Destruction Mastery
1p Domi
1pc Groth
All infused with max magicka
5 light 1 medium 1 heavy
Green food for 6k magicka
Magicka Mundus
Bound Aegis, Inner Light, 1 pet and 3 Mages guild abilities
Altmer
Warhorn
Max CP
=> 71988. Without altmer passive => 67091

Dracane · January 2019

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Dracane The thing is, that I do want to be convinced. I merely do not see the reality behind your math, which makes it not convincing to me.

Says the guy with exactly zero calculations in their posts. Just end numbers that we have no idea how you got there and therefore have no reason to believe you.

.You yourself even said that these changes are supposed to be a buff when you are in a raid with all buffs applied.

*Citation needed

You really are an exceptionally aggressive individual.

I went into detail how I got my numbers.

Where? Here is every one of your comments from the last three pages

Dracane wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Pretty good, overall.

Breton looks like it needs a bit more work to bring it up to par with High Elf.

It does not. Bretons are not on par with high elves lore wise and they must not be here either. They are have more than they should have. They are but Half Mer.

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:

This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.

I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.

And btw, this was not done with a calculator like you seemingly did. It was by actually comparing the tooltips.

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:

This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.

I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.

huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.

No, I loose over 1700 magicka. For your build, that might be the case. But not everyone uses your build and not everyone is a nightblade with mostly magic damage. It will be a nerf for many builds that do no follow your streamline.

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:

This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.

I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.

huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.

No, I loose over 1700 magicka. For your build, that might be the case. But not everyone uses your build and not everyone is a nightblade with mostly magic damage. It will be a nerf for many builds that do no follow your streamline.

Okay i am intrigued how you tested that. Explain to me how you lost 1700 magicka...

What am I supposed to explain ? The fact that gift of Magnus gives me 4237 magicka ?

In order to get to a loss of 1.7k you have to have over 70k magicka. i tried stacking as much as i could into max magicka and i couldnt get there. I'm sorry, but i trust the UESP guys and Combat Devs more than your own test.

Even IF you lose that 1700 magicka, you still get a return in exchange. On a sorcerer, 258 spell damage get boosted a lot (by major+minor sorcery+2% for every class skill on your bar) and even on a pet sorc it will most likely net you the same damage as before, simply because 258 spell damage outperform 4% damage done in CP content.

Then I have no clue how you came up with this. With 48k magicka, nothing fancy, 10% GoM gives me 4200 magicka. In pve it will be even more. I really don't know how you calculate those numbers. I can only say, it should be done rather than calculated.

Dracane wrote: »

@Masel I have made a more careful test now and I am beginning to believe, you try to deceive people.

My magicka with Gift of Magnus is 48,898
Orginally I just slotted a mages ability (2%) magicka and took it by 5 which is 10%. I thought, maybe it does scale differently. But no, I was right. I removed gift of magnus and ended up with 44,655 Magicka, that is a 4213 difference !

Then I wanted to see how much magicka 2000 will end up being. I thought bright throats was perfect for this, as it gives 2000 magicka. But it turned out that Bright throats is bugged and its 2000 magicka do not scale, they remain roughly 2000 magicka (fix it maybe? )

So I had to take 2 monster sets, which is a bit unprecise. But the number was roughly 2500. Hence I loose 1700 magicka and mind you, that is my pvp setup. The loss will be higher in pve where I have more magicka. Everyone has such magicka numbers in pve and everyone will loose the same amount as I do and everyone who actually tests this, will see this as well. A calculator theory will not reveal the truth. (eso's math is too messy to even be predicted)

Now a final test, to show you that Altmer will be nerfed by this.
Let us take force pulse as an example. My force pulse without 4% elemental damage, deals 2993 per element. (No glyph damage) With 4% added, it's 3081 (As I said, actually TESTED, not calculated)
Then I equipped 2 spell damage monster sets which give me exactly 258 base damage. Added to this is major sorcery and those few percent that the Sorcerer passive gives me (6% for me here) Force pulse now deals 3096 per element.

That is 45 damage more compared to elemental talent. Good on the first glance, right ? But now we consider loosing 1700 magicka or more (Every normal build will loose that, as my magicka numbers are totally normal) We can see that elemental damage will definately be worse now. Sure, pure magic damage profits from that, aka Nightblades and Templars. But Sorcerer and Dk and I dare say Wardens, do not. Most of their damage is elemental and will be weaker.

My conclusion is, that current ressource values for races are too low, especially for magicka builds. Ressource values would be raised by at least 500 to not pose a nerf for our current setups.

Dracane wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

@Masel

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

If that only was true. Your examples are for generic pve builds so the flat bonus numbers are like counted from pretty much base and for pve dps point of view.

So.. when one goes to pvp builds, and have been using the % bonus strengths to each race to build high on them to make setup based on that, then adding other things according to it. There are BIG nerfs and you should not try to deny them, or have you all forgot pvp builds completely? Not everyone plays with generic youtube shackle/seventh/Blood Spawn builds at pvp. There are big nerfs and way less versatility now with the new flat number approach, since there are not many % based bonuses on sets.

Example: Nord, No-CP (Battlegrounds/Sotha Sil) : it had % based damage reduction, for pvp that actually did mitigate against bleeds, it had % Healthy Recovery. You could make big hp regen with that +20%. With the changes like these now on this preview. Nerfed in both cases.

Example: Khajiit. No-CP (Battlegrounds/Sotha Sil) : Health regen flat number +100 vs old +20% hp recovery. Now a simple question: Is old +20% hp recovery more with Troll King monster set, than the new +100? +20% wins by a large margin. Most of those type builds have more flat recovery bonuses on top of Troll King, so its even more.

I rest my case.

So what is "quite dangerous"? To let people know the truth that their pvp builds ARE getting nerfed and the flat values were clearly made for PVE base values in mind with low to average numbers in certain areas. Things will be nerfed hard on pvp builds. It is a fact.

That is my impression as well. I really mean no harm to anyone. Accusing someone is the last thing I want to do. But I can't help thinking that Masel tries to lie to us. All those calculations are not based on reality and are purely theoretical, hence not representative of the real results.

I think, they try to sell us nerfs as buffs.

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:

This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.

I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.

huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.

No, I loose over 1700 magicka. For your build, that might be the case. But not everyone uses your build and not everyone is a nightblade with mostly magic damage. It will be a nerf for many builds that do no follow your streamline.

Okay i am intrigued how you tested that. Explain to me how you lost 1700 magicka...

What am I supposed to explain ? The fact that gift of Magnus gives me 4237 magicka ?

In order to get to a loss of 1.7k you have to have over 70k magicka. i tried stacking as much as i could into max magicka and i couldnt get there. I'm sorry, but i trust the UESP guys and Combat Devs more than your own test.

Even IF you lose that 1700 magicka, you still get a return in exchange. On a sorcerer, 258 spell damage get boosted a lot (by major+minor sorcery+2% for every class skill on your bar) and even on a pet sorc it will most likely net you the same damage as before, simply because 258 spell damage outperform 4% damage done in CP content.

Then I have no clue how you came up with this. With 48k magicka, nothing fancy, 10% GoM gives me 4200 magicka. In pve it will be even more. I really don't know how you calculate those numbers. I can only say, it should be done rather than calculated.

It gives you 4200 magicka, i didnt debate that. Its just that the difference will not be 1700 magicka, especially in PvE, where you have more amplifiers than in solo/pvp content...

Dracane wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

@Masel

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

If that only was true. Your examples are for generic pve builds so the flat bonus numbers are like counted from pretty much base and for pve dps point of view.

So.. when one goes to pvp builds, and have been using the % bonus strengths to each race to build high on them to make setup based on that, then adding other things according to it. There are BIG nerfs and you should not try to deny them, or have you all forgot pvp builds completely? Not everyone plays with generic youtube shackle/seventh/Blood Spawn builds at pvp. There are big nerfs and way less versatility now with the new flat number approach, since there are not many % based bonuses on sets.

Example: Nord, No-CP (Battlegrounds/Sotha Sil) : it had % based damage reduction, for pvp that actually did mitigate against bleeds, it had % Healthy Recovery. You could make big hp regen with that +20%. With the changes like these now on this preview. Nerfed in both cases.

Example: Khajiit. No-CP (Battlegrounds/Sotha Sil) : Health regen flat number +100 vs old +20% hp recovery. Now a simple question: Is old +20% hp recovery more with Troll King monster set, than the new +100? +20% wins by a large margin. Most of those type builds have more flat recovery bonuses on top of Troll King, so its even more.

I rest my case.

So what is "quite dangerous"? To let people know the truth that their pvp builds ARE getting nerfed and the flat values were clearly made for PVE base values in mind with low to average numbers in certain areas. Things will be nerfed hard on pvp builds. It is a fact.

That is my impression as well. I really mean no harm to anyone. Accusing someone is the last thing I want to do. But I can't help thinking that Masel tries to lie to us. All those calculations are not based on reality and are purely theoretical, hence not representative of the real results.

I think, they try to sell us nerfs as buffs.

I try to lie to you? Good grief.

Please don't ride around on the negative. Why do you ignore the facts I have presented to you ?

Dracane wrote: »

@Moonsorrow These changes were supervised by high end raidplayers. So this comes as no surprise and I wouldn't mind it, if these changes wouldn't seem so selfish. They may be favorable for 5%, but ignore the other 95%.

Dracane wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

@Moonsorrow These changes were supervised by high end raidplayers. So this comes as no surprise and I wouldn't mind it, if these changes wouldn't seem so selfish. They may be favorable for 5%, but ignore the other 95%.

You are not the 95%. Your build is not average.

Yes, I am part of the 95%. Part of those people who are not high end raiders.
Everyone who is not them is the 95% and many of them will loose out more than they gain.

No where in that mess do you have a single full calculation. Just end numbers and you saying "well that just the way it is".

Uhm yes, I actually did.

I said what my base magicka was. I said what gift of magnus gives me and then I went on to tell what I equip and change in order to make a comparison between 2k magicka and 10% magicka.
Then I went on to show why Altmer damage will be worse with these changes. I said what passive and buffs I apply, what I equip etc to show that 258 spell damage is not as powerful as people make it out to be in comparison to the current passive.

Also, nobody here went into as much detail as I did. Everyone just slaps numbers in your face and you buy it. But when someone tells you what they do to achieve it, you go blind and still and get aggressive.
Darling I get it, you want to support Masel. But the truth is, he can speak for himself and he does not need some vanguard.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2019

Dracane wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Dracane The thing is, that I do want to be convinced. I merely do not see the reality behind your math, which makes it not convincing to me.

Says the guy with exactly zero calculations in their posts. Just end numbers that we have no idea how you got there and therefore have no reason to believe you.

.You yourself even said that these changes are supposed to be a buff when you are in a raid with all buffs applied.

*Citation needed

You really are an exceptionally aggressive individual.

I went into detail how I got my numbers.

Where? Here is every one of your comments from the last three pages

Dracane wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Pretty good, overall.

Breton looks like it needs a bit more work to bring it up to par with High Elf.

It does not. Bretons are not on par with high elves lore wise and they must not be here either. They are have more than they should have. They are but Half Mer.

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:

This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.

I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.

And btw, this was not done with a calculator like you seemingly did. It was by actually comparing the tooltips.

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:

This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.

I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.

huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.

No, I loose over 1700 magicka. For your build, that might be the case. But not everyone uses your build and not everyone is a nightblade with mostly magic damage. It will be a nerf for many builds that do no follow your streamline.

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:

This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.

I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.

huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.

No, I loose over 1700 magicka. For your build, that might be the case. But not everyone uses your build and not everyone is a nightblade with mostly magic damage. It will be a nerf for many builds that do no follow your streamline.

Okay i am intrigued how you tested that. Explain to me how you lost 1700 magicka...

What am I supposed to explain ? The fact that gift of Magnus gives me 4237 magicka ?

In order to get to a loss of 1.7k you have to have over 70k magicka. i tried stacking as much as i could into max magicka and i couldnt get there. I'm sorry, but i trust the UESP guys and Combat Devs more than your own test.

Even IF you lose that 1700 magicka, you still get a return in exchange. On a sorcerer, 258 spell damage get boosted a lot (by major+minor sorcery+2% for every class skill on your bar) and even on a pet sorc it will most likely net you the same damage as before, simply because 258 spell damage outperform 4% damage done in CP content.

Then I have no clue how you came up with this. With 48k magicka, nothing fancy, 10% GoM gives me 4200 magicka. In pve it will be even more. I really don't know how you calculate those numbers. I can only say, it should be done rather than calculated.

Dracane wrote: »

@Masel I have made a more careful test now and I am beginning to believe, you try to deceive people.

My magicka with Gift of Magnus is 48,898
Orginally I just slotted a mages ability (2%) magicka and took it by 5 which is 10%. I thought, maybe it does scale differently. But no, I was right. I removed gift of magnus and ended up with 44,655 Magicka, that is a 4213 difference !

Then I wanted to see how much magicka 2000 will end up being. I thought bright throats was perfect for this, as it gives 2000 magicka. But it turned out that Bright throats is bugged and its 2000 magicka do not scale, they remain roughly 2000 magicka (fix it maybe? )

So I had to take 2 monster sets, which is a bit unprecise. But the number was roughly 2500. Hence I loose 1700 magicka and mind you, that is my pvp setup. The loss will be higher in pve where I have more magicka. Everyone has such magicka numbers in pve and everyone will loose the same amount as I do and everyone who actually tests this, will see this as well. A calculator theory will not reveal the truth. (eso's math is too messy to even be predicted)

Now a final test, to show you that Altmer will be nerfed by this.
Let us take force pulse as an example. My force pulse without 4% elemental damage, deals 2993 per element. (No glyph damage) With 4% added, it's 3081 (As I said, actually TESTED, not calculated)
Then I equipped 2 spell damage monster sets which give me exactly 258 base damage. Added to this is major sorcery and those few percent that the Sorcerer passive gives me (6% for me here) Force pulse now deals 3096 per element.

That is 45 damage more compared to elemental talent. Good on the first glance, right ? But now we consider loosing 1700 magicka or more (Every normal build will loose that, as my magicka numbers are totally normal) We can see that elemental damage will definately be worse now. Sure, pure magic damage profits from that, aka Nightblades and Templars. But Sorcerer and Dk and I dare say Wardens, do not. Most of their damage is elemental and will be weaker.

My conclusion is, that current ressource values for races are too low, especially for magicka builds. Ressource values would be raised by at least 500 to not pose a nerf for our current setups.

Dracane wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

@Masel

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

If that only was true. Your examples are for generic pve builds so the flat bonus numbers are like counted from pretty much base and for pve dps point of view.

So.. when one goes to pvp builds, and have been using the % bonus strengths to each race to build high on them to make setup based on that, then adding other things according to it. There are BIG nerfs and you should not try to deny them, or have you all forgot pvp builds completely? Not everyone plays with generic youtube shackle/seventh/Blood Spawn builds at pvp. There are big nerfs and way less versatility now with the new flat number approach, since there are not many % based bonuses on sets.

Example: Nord, No-CP (Battlegrounds/Sotha Sil) : it had % based damage reduction, for pvp that actually did mitigate against bleeds, it had % Healthy Recovery. You could make big hp regen with that +20%. With the changes like these now on this preview. Nerfed in both cases.

Example: Khajiit. No-CP (Battlegrounds/Sotha Sil) : Health regen flat number +100 vs old +20% hp recovery. Now a simple question: Is old +20% hp recovery more with Troll King monster set, than the new +100? +20% wins by a large margin. Most of those type builds have more flat recovery bonuses on top of Troll King, so its even more.

I rest my case.

So what is "quite dangerous"? To let people know the truth that their pvp builds ARE getting nerfed and the flat values were clearly made for PVE base values in mind with low to average numbers in certain areas. Things will be nerfed hard on pvp builds. It is a fact.

That is my impression as well. I really mean no harm to anyone. Accusing someone is the last thing I want to do. But I can't help thinking that Masel tries to lie to us. All those calculations are not based on reality and are purely theoretical, hence not representative of the real results.

I think, they try to sell us nerfs as buffs.

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:

This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.

I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.

huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.

No, I loose over 1700 magicka. For your build, that might be the case. But not everyone uses your build and not everyone is a nightblade with mostly magic damage. It will be a nerf for many builds that do no follow your streamline.

Okay i am intrigued how you tested that. Explain to me how you lost 1700 magicka...

What am I supposed to explain ? The fact that gift of Magnus gives me 4237 magicka ?

In order to get to a loss of 1.7k you have to have over 70k magicka. i tried stacking as much as i could into max magicka and i couldnt get there. I'm sorry, but i trust the UESP guys and Combat Devs more than your own test.

Even IF you lose that 1700 magicka, you still get a return in exchange. On a sorcerer, 258 spell damage get boosted a lot (by major+minor sorcery+2% for every class skill on your bar) and even on a pet sorc it will most likely net you the same damage as before, simply because 258 spell damage outperform 4% damage done in CP content.

Then I have no clue how you came up with this. With 48k magicka, nothing fancy, 10% GoM gives me 4200 magicka. In pve it will be even more. I really don't know how you calculate those numbers. I can only say, it should be done rather than calculated.

It gives you 4200 magicka, i didnt debate that. Its just that the difference will not be 1700 magicka, especially in PvE, where you have more amplifiers than in solo/pvp content...

Dracane wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

@Masel

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

If that only was true. Your examples are for generic pve builds so the flat bonus numbers are like counted from pretty much base and for pve dps point of view.

So.. when one goes to pvp builds, and have been using the % bonus strengths to each race to build high on them to make setup based on that, then adding other things according to it. There are BIG nerfs and you should not try to deny them, or have you all forgot pvp builds completely? Not everyone plays with generic youtube shackle/seventh/Blood Spawn builds at pvp. There are big nerfs and way less versatility now with the new flat number approach, since there are not many % based bonuses on sets.

Example: Nord, No-CP (Battlegrounds/Sotha Sil) : it had % based damage reduction, for pvp that actually did mitigate against bleeds, it had % Healthy Recovery. You could make big hp regen with that +20%. With the changes like these now on this preview. Nerfed in both cases.

Example: Khajiit. No-CP (Battlegrounds/Sotha Sil) : Health regen flat number +100 vs old +20% hp recovery. Now a simple question: Is old +20% hp recovery more with Troll King monster set, than the new +100? +20% wins by a large margin. Most of those type builds have more flat recovery bonuses on top of Troll King, so its even more.

I rest my case.

So what is "quite dangerous"? To let people know the truth that their pvp builds ARE getting nerfed and the flat values were clearly made for PVE base values in mind with low to average numbers in certain areas. Things will be nerfed hard on pvp builds. It is a fact.

That is my impression as well. I really mean no harm to anyone. Accusing someone is the last thing I want to do. But I can't help thinking that Masel tries to lie to us. All those calculations are not based on reality and are purely theoretical, hence not representative of the real results.

I think, they try to sell us nerfs as buffs.

I try to lie to you? Good grief.

Please don't ride around on the negative. Why do you ignore the facts I have presented to you ?

Dracane wrote: »

@Moonsorrow These changes were supervised by high end raidplayers. So this comes as no surprise and I wouldn't mind it, if these changes wouldn't seem so selfish. They may be favorable for 5%, but ignore the other 95%.

Dracane wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

@Moonsorrow These changes were supervised by high end raidplayers. So this comes as no surprise and I wouldn't mind it, if these changes wouldn't seem so selfish. They may be favorable for 5%, but ignore the other 95%.

You are not the 95%. Your build is not average.

Yes, I am part of the 95%. Part of those people who are not high end raiders.
Everyone who is not them is the 95% and many of them will loose out more than they gain.

No where in that mess do you have a single full calculation. Just end numbers and you saying "well that just the way it is".

Uhm yes, I actually did. I said what my base magicka was. I said what gift of magnus gives me and then I went on to tell what I equip and change in order to make a comparison between 2k magicka and 10% magicka.
Then I went on to show why Altmer damage will be worse with these changes. I said what passive and buffs I apply, what I equip etc to show that 258 spell damage is not as powerful as people make it out to be in comparison to the current passive.

Then post a screenshot or give exact details of your build. It is really simple. Till then I have zero reason to believe you.

Also, nobody here went into as much detail as I did. Everyone just slaps numbers in your face and you buy it. But when someone tells you what they do to achieve it, you go blind and still and get aggressive.
Darling I get it, you want to support Masel. But the truth is, he can speak for himself and he does not need some vanguard.

Keep trying to goat me into a personal argument, makes you look so correct.

Dracane · January 2019

SodanTok wrote: »

@Dracane Can you share your build? I am really interested in where your numbers are coming from since even colossal 72k magicka build gets only 4897 magicka from current version of altmer passive.

Build:
Necro
Destruction Mastery
1p Domi
1pc Groth
All infused with max magicka
5 light 1 medium 1 heavy
Green food for 6k magicka
Magicka Mundus
Bound Aegis, Inner Light, 1 pet and 3 Mages guild abilities
Altmer
Warhorn
Max CP
=> 71988. Without altmer passive => 67091

Okay. What do you require of me ? What and how must I provide it ?
I really didn't think that this is needed. As what I did is easy to follow and my values are really average.
Even your difference is high. Adding bound armor and all those other %s do not change the outcome. Only base magicka matters. If you have 44k magicka as I do, then gift of magnus gives you 4200 magicka. That is easy to understand, is it not ?

Dracane · January 2019

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Dracane The thing is, that I do want to be convinced. I merely do not see the reality behind your math, which makes it not convincing to me.

Says the guy with exactly zero calculations in their posts. Just end numbers that we have no idea how you got there and therefore have no reason to believe you.

.You yourself even said that these changes are supposed to be a buff when you are in a raid with all buffs applied.

*Citation needed

You really are an exceptionally aggressive individual.

I went into detail how I got my numbers.

Where? Here is every one of your comments from the last three pages

Dracane wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Pretty good, overall.

Breton looks like it needs a bit more work to bring it up to par with High Elf.

It does not. Bretons are not on par with high elves lore wise and they must not be here either. They are have more than they should have. They are but Half Mer.

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:

This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.

I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.

And btw, this was not done with a calculator like you seemingly did. It was by actually comparing the tooltips.

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:

This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.

I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.

huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.

No, I loose over 1700 magicka. For your build, that might be the case. But not everyone uses your build and not everyone is a nightblade with mostly magic damage. It will be a nerf for many builds that do no follow your streamline.

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:

This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.

I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.

huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.

No, I loose over 1700 magicka. For your build, that might be the case. But not everyone uses your build and not everyone is a nightblade with mostly magic damage. It will be a nerf for many builds that do no follow your streamline.

Okay i am intrigued how you tested that. Explain to me how you lost 1700 magicka...

What am I supposed to explain ? The fact that gift of Magnus gives me 4237 magicka ?

In order to get to a loss of 1.7k you have to have over 70k magicka. i tried stacking as much as i could into max magicka and i couldnt get there. I'm sorry, but i trust the UESP guys and Combat Devs more than your own test.

Even IF you lose that 1700 magicka, you still get a return in exchange. On a sorcerer, 258 spell damage get boosted a lot (by major+minor sorcery+2% for every class skill on your bar) and even on a pet sorc it will most likely net you the same damage as before, simply because 258 spell damage outperform 4% damage done in CP content.

Then I have no clue how you came up with this. With 48k magicka, nothing fancy, 10% GoM gives me 4200 magicka. In pve it will be even more. I really don't know how you calculate those numbers. I can only say, it should be done rather than calculated.

Dracane wrote: »

@Masel I have made a more careful test now and I am beginning to believe, you try to deceive people.

My magicka with Gift of Magnus is 48,898
Orginally I just slotted a mages ability (2%) magicka and took it by 5 which is 10%. I thought, maybe it does scale differently. But no, I was right. I removed gift of magnus and ended up with 44,655 Magicka, that is a 4213 difference !

Then I wanted to see how much magicka 2000 will end up being. I thought bright throats was perfect for this, as it gives 2000 magicka. But it turned out that Bright throats is bugged and its 2000 magicka do not scale, they remain roughly 2000 magicka (fix it maybe? )

So I had to take 2 monster sets, which is a bit unprecise. But the number was roughly 2500. Hence I loose 1700 magicka and mind you, that is my pvp setup. The loss will be higher in pve where I have more magicka. Everyone has such magicka numbers in pve and everyone will loose the same amount as I do and everyone who actually tests this, will see this as well. A calculator theory will not reveal the truth. (eso's math is too messy to even be predicted)

Now a final test, to show you that Altmer will be nerfed by this.
Let us take force pulse as an example. My force pulse without 4% elemental damage, deals 2993 per element. (No glyph damage) With 4% added, it's 3081 (As I said, actually TESTED, not calculated)
Then I equipped 2 spell damage monster sets which give me exactly 258 base damage. Added to this is major sorcery and those few percent that the Sorcerer passive gives me (6% for me here) Force pulse now deals 3096 per element.

That is 45 damage more compared to elemental talent. Good on the first glance, right ? But now we consider loosing 1700 magicka or more (Every normal build will loose that, as my magicka numbers are totally normal) We can see that elemental damage will definately be worse now. Sure, pure magic damage profits from that, aka Nightblades and Templars. But Sorcerer and Dk and I dare say Wardens, do not. Most of their damage is elemental and will be weaker.

My conclusion is, that current ressource values for races are too low, especially for magicka builds. Ressource values would be raised by at least 500 to not pose a nerf for our current setups.

Dracane wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

@Masel

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

If that only was true. Your examples are for generic pve builds so the flat bonus numbers are like counted from pretty much base and for pve dps point of view.

So.. when one goes to pvp builds, and have been using the % bonus strengths to each race to build high on them to make setup based on that, then adding other things according to it. There are BIG nerfs and you should not try to deny them, or have you all forgot pvp builds completely? Not everyone plays with generic youtube shackle/seventh/Blood Spawn builds at pvp. There are big nerfs and way less versatility now with the new flat number approach, since there are not many % based bonuses on sets.

Example: Nord, No-CP (Battlegrounds/Sotha Sil) : it had % based damage reduction, for pvp that actually did mitigate against bleeds, it had % Healthy Recovery. You could make big hp regen with that +20%. With the changes like these now on this preview. Nerfed in both cases.

Example: Khajiit. No-CP (Battlegrounds/Sotha Sil) : Health regen flat number +100 vs old +20% hp recovery. Now a simple question: Is old +20% hp recovery more with Troll King monster set, than the new +100? +20% wins by a large margin. Most of those type builds have more flat recovery bonuses on top of Troll King, so its even more.

I rest my case.

So what is "quite dangerous"? To let people know the truth that their pvp builds ARE getting nerfed and the flat values were clearly made for PVE base values in mind with low to average numbers in certain areas. Things will be nerfed hard on pvp builds. It is a fact.

That is my impression as well. I really mean no harm to anyone. Accusing someone is the last thing I want to do. But I can't help thinking that Masel tries to lie to us. All those calculations are not based on reality and are purely theoretical, hence not representative of the real results.

I think, they try to sell us nerfs as buffs.

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:

This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.

I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.

huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.

No, I loose over 1700 magicka. For your build, that might be the case. But not everyone uses your build and not everyone is a nightblade with mostly magic damage. It will be a nerf for many builds that do no follow your streamline.

Okay i am intrigued how you tested that. Explain to me how you lost 1700 magicka...

What am I supposed to explain ? The fact that gift of Magnus gives me 4237 magicka ?

In order to get to a loss of 1.7k you have to have over 70k magicka. i tried stacking as much as i could into max magicka and i couldnt get there. I'm sorry, but i trust the UESP guys and Combat Devs more than your own test.

Even IF you lose that 1700 magicka, you still get a return in exchange. On a sorcerer, 258 spell damage get boosted a lot (by major+minor sorcery+2% for every class skill on your bar) and even on a pet sorc it will most likely net you the same damage as before, simply because 258 spell damage outperform 4% damage done in CP content.

Then I have no clue how you came up with this. With 48k magicka, nothing fancy, 10% GoM gives me 4200 magicka. In pve it will be even more. I really don't know how you calculate those numbers. I can only say, it should be done rather than calculated.

It gives you 4200 magicka, i didnt debate that. Its just that the difference will not be 1700 magicka, especially in PvE, where you have more amplifiers than in solo/pvp content...

Dracane wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

@Masel

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

If that only was true. Your examples are for generic pve builds so the flat bonus numbers are like counted from pretty much base and for pve dps point of view.

So.. when one goes to pvp builds, and have been using the % bonus strengths to each race to build high on them to make setup based on that, then adding other things according to it. There are BIG nerfs and you should not try to deny them, or have you all forgot pvp builds completely? Not everyone plays with generic youtube shackle/seventh/Blood Spawn builds at pvp. There are big nerfs and way less versatility now with the new flat number approach, since there are not many % based bonuses on sets.

Example: Nord, No-CP (Battlegrounds/Sotha Sil) : it had % based damage reduction, for pvp that actually did mitigate against bleeds, it had % Healthy Recovery. You could make big hp regen with that +20%. With the changes like these now on this preview. Nerfed in both cases.

Example: Khajiit. No-CP (Battlegrounds/Sotha Sil) : Health regen flat number +100 vs old +20% hp recovery. Now a simple question: Is old +20% hp recovery more with Troll King monster set, than the new +100? +20% wins by a large margin. Most of those type builds have more flat recovery bonuses on top of Troll King, so its even more.

I rest my case.

So what is "quite dangerous"? To let people know the truth that their pvp builds ARE getting nerfed and the flat values were clearly made for PVE base values in mind with low to average numbers in certain areas. Things will be nerfed hard on pvp builds. It is a fact.

That is my impression as well. I really mean no harm to anyone. Accusing someone is the last thing I want to do. But I can't help thinking that Masel tries to lie to us. All those calculations are not based on reality and are purely theoretical, hence not representative of the real results.

I think, they try to sell us nerfs as buffs.

I try to lie to you? Good grief.

Please don't ride around on the negative. Why do you ignore the facts I have presented to you ?

Dracane wrote: »

@Moonsorrow These changes were supervised by high end raidplayers. So this comes as no surprise and I wouldn't mind it, if these changes wouldn't seem so selfish. They may be favorable for 5%, but ignore the other 95%.

Dracane wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

@Moonsorrow These changes were supervised by high end raidplayers. So this comes as no surprise and I wouldn't mind it, if these changes wouldn't seem so selfish. They may be favorable for 5%, but ignore the other 95%.

You are not the 95%. Your build is not average.

Yes, I am part of the 95%. Part of those people who are not high end raiders.
Everyone who is not them is the 95% and many of them will loose out more than they gain.

No where in that mess do you have a single full calculation. Just end numbers and you saying "well that just the way it is".

Uhm yes, I actually did. I said what my base magicka was. I said what gift of magnus gives me and then I went on to tell what I equip and change in order to make a comparison between 2k magicka and 10% magicka.
Then I went on to show why Altmer damage will be worse with these changes. I said what passive and buffs I apply, what I equip etc to show that 258 spell damage is not as powerful as people make it out to be in comparison to the current passive.

Then post a screenshot or give exact details of your build. It is really simple. Till then I have zero reason to believe you.

Also, nobody here went into as much detail as I did. Everyone just slaps numbers in your face and you buy it. But when someone tells you what they do to achieve it, you go blind and still and get aggressive.
Darling I get it, you want to support Masel. But the truth is, he can speak for himself and he does not need some vanguard.

Keep trying to goat me into a personal argument, makes you look so correct.

You have already started the personal argument with your viciousness 1 page ago.
I must not post anything, as every child can have 44k magicka, add gift of magnus and end up with 4200 more magicka. You can reproduce that.

If you refuse to believe such a simple thing, than you are merely ignorant and I am in no need to provide anything.

I have posted in detail what I did. That is enough.

Ragnaroek93 · January 2019

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

@Moonsorrow These changes were supervised by high end raidplayers. So this comes as no surprise and I wouldn't mind it, if these changes wouldn't seem so selfish. They may be favorable for 5%, but ignore the other 95%.

I am baffled by your statements. You accuse all of us to be biased and only think of PvE, even though we have a few very good PvP players among the reps that actually welcome these changes. I'll let you think whatever you want... I don't have the time or nerve to try and convince people that do not want to be convinced.

@Masel I have to admit that some of the changes seem to be indeed endgame PvE driven. Being the best PvE stam dps race is nothing which Dunmer's were asking for nor does it make much sense after all these years. Almost all races get something unique and even some build enabling passives (which I personally like a lot), meanwhile you take away the thing which makes Dunmer unique and giving them mirror stats, same as with Khajiit's. The thing which worries me the most is that the class doesn't really seem to be a good choice for mag Dk anymore and pushed into stam PvE dps instead. A bit love for mag Dk Dunmers would be great. The Khajiit crit passive is unique and the stat density from the passive is the highest from all racials but sadly crit chance isn't great in PvP and the health reg isn't really useful either. Something like crit dmg would still be unique but would also be more helpful in PvP (can't really say how it affects PvE since I don't play high end PvE).

However I really like the passive changes overall, didn't expected it to come out that well. Dunmer and Khajiit are my only concerns, the other changes look great and I can't wait to test it on PTS.

SodanTok · January 2019

Dracane wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

@Dracane Can you share your build? I am really interested in where your numbers are coming from since even colossal 72k magicka build gets only 4897 magicka from current version of altmer passive.

Build:
Necro
Destruction Mastery
1p Domi
1pc Groth
All infused with max magicka
5 light 1 medium 1 heavy
Green food for 6k magicka
Magicka Mundus
Bound Aegis, Inner Light, 1 pet and 3 Mages guild abilities
Altmer
Warhorn
Max CP
=> 71988. Without altmer passive => 67091

Okay. What do you require of me ? What and how must I provide it ?
I really didn't think that this is needed. As what I did is easy to follow and my values are really average.
Even your difference is high. Adding bound armor and all those other %s do not change the outcome. Only base magicka matters. If you have 44k magicka as I do, then gift of magnus gives you 4200 magicka. That is easy to understand, is it not ?

The thing is there could be bugs or undocumented changes that throw off yours or anyone elses calculations without knowing full build (like superstar addon would tell). For example mundus, food and necropotence were never affected by CP and shouldnt be (unless intentionally and secretly changed).

So it all matters. It could either improve Masels calculations or eso build tool by introducing unknown effect or it could improve your calculation by finding some mistake you have made.

Math is not magic. It has to work out or there is mistake in calculation.

//edit: Not to forget bugs that were present in game still few patches ago. Like having golden weapon on you improved resources from food by 10% for no reason but bad coding...

//edit2:
Mimicked your build by finding enough magicka value to get 4200 from magnus. Such build loses 1786 magicka next patch if they have no bonuses at all. I must say you are right, but also that your build is very much different and special to achieve this. Just by introducing very common 5/1/1 setup or inner light the loss is less than 1k.

Dracane · January 2019

SodanTok wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

@Dracane Can you share your build? I am really interested in where your numbers are coming from since even colossal 72k magicka build gets only 4897 magicka from current version of altmer passive.

Build:
Necro
Destruction Mastery
1p Domi
1pc Groth
All infused with max magicka
5 light 1 medium 1 heavy
Green food for 6k magicka
Magicka Mundus
Bound Aegis, Inner Light, 1 pet and 3 Mages guild abilities
Altmer
Warhorn
Max CP
=> 71988. Without altmer passive => 67091

Okay. What do you require of me ? What and how must I provide it ?
I really didn't think that this is needed. As what I did is easy to follow and my values are really average.
Even your difference is high. Adding bound armor and all those other %s do not change the outcome. Only base magicka matters. If you have 44k magicka as I do, then gift of magnus gives you 4200 magicka. That is easy to understand, is it not ?

The thing is there could be bugs or undocumented changes that throw off yours or anyone elses calculations without knowing full build (like superstar addon would tell). For example mundus, food and necropotence were never affected by CP and shouldnt be (unless intentionally and secretly changed).

So it all matters. It could either improve Masels calculations or eso build tool by introducing unknown effect or it could improve your calculation by finding some mistake you have made.

Math is not magic. It has to work out or there is mistake in calculation.

//edit: Not to forget bugs that were present in game still few patches ago. Like having golden weapon on you improved resources from food by 10% for no reason but bad coding...

That is unsettling I must admit. Food and Necro are not supposed to be affect by CP ? I am certain mine are and have always been.
So, here is what I was wearing:

2 might Chudany - max magicka, all impenetrable. (medium shoulders, heavy helmet)
5 necropotence - small pieces max magicka, 2 big pieces triune and all impenetrable.
3 bright throats yewelry - all Arcane with 1 regen glyph and 2 spell damage
1 Bright throats staff

Mage Mundus
Witch Mothers not so potent brew
max cp
no bound armor, no mages guild stuff.

My stats

50889751_1859643784158030_898024975229779968_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_ht=scontent-frt3-2.xx&oh=ea093bcbb28fba252ed3178c617eb3f4&oe=5CCD5E80

50889751_1859643784158030_898024975229779968_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_ht=scontent-frt3-2.xx&oh=ea093bcbb28fba252ed3178c617eb3f4&oe=5CCD5E80

Here is my magicka without gift of magnus. I only took a screenshot of the magicka bar yesterday, I do not want to spend 20k gold again to have it again.

50914560_1859645277491214_6926866157693566976_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent-frt3-2.xx&oh=dd296a7cd2fcf2aea0600260deb18675&oe=5CFAFAE9

SodanTok · January 2019

@Dracane yup. But now with your gear it doesnt matter if they still are or not. You are indeed getting 4173 from current Magnus. And next patch your max magicka pool decreases by 1629. To be completely fair, your build is almost the extreme. Where Masel's calculations seem to be pve based and average based. You are stacking max magicka thru base values instead of amplifiers, 'average' build does it opposite.
I know that doesnt make it better. You will be nerfed. Not just you, but very few people like you. Basically any magsorc build stacking max magicka throu sets (instead of multipliers) and specializing in elemental damage.

Dracane · January 2019

SodanTok wrote: »

@Dracane yup. But now with your gear it doesnt matter if they still are or not. You are indeed getting 4173 from current Magnus. And next patch your max magicka pool decreases by 1629. To be completely fair, your build is almost the extreme. Where Masel's calculations seem to be pve based and average based. You are stacking max magicka thru base values instead of amplifiers, 'average' build does it opposite.
I know that doesnt make it better. You will be nerfed. Not just you, but very few people like you. Basically any magsorc build stacking max magicka throu sets (instead of multipliers) and specializing in elemental damage.

A shocking revelation. I thought, my magicka stacking is quite down to earth. 44k magicka is very low in my eyes and I am forced to wear mighty chudan, impen, low quality food etc.

I thank you for your kind council. Everyone else is trying to tell me I'm wrong.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2019

Dracane wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

@Dracane yup. But now with your gear it doesnt matter if they still are or not. You are indeed getting 4173 from current Magnus. And next patch your max magicka pool decreases by 1629. To be completely fair, your build is almost the extreme. Where Masel's calculations seem to be pve based and average based. You are stacking max magicka thru base values instead of amplifiers, 'average' build does it opposite.
I know that doesnt make it better. You will be nerfed. Not just you, but very few people like you. Basically any magsorc build stacking max magicka throu sets (instead of multipliers) and specializing in elemental damage.

A shocking revelation. I thought, my magicka stacking is quite down to earth. 44k magicka is very low in my eyes and I am forced to wear mighty chudan, impen, low quality food etc.

I thank you for your kind council. Everyone else is trying to tell me I'm wrong.

we were not telling you were wrong, we said we wanted to figure out how you are so off the average, which you are and you were stone walling us at every turn till you posted your stats and a detailed explanation of how you got there, thank you for that little bit of evidance by the way. you need to stop trying to make everything personal( like you called masal lier and all that garbage you were shoveling towards me) . it really makes your statements look like they are fraudulent.

Dracane · January 2019

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

@Dracane yup. But now with your gear it doesnt matter if they still are or not. You are indeed getting 4173 from current Magnus. And next patch your max magicka pool decreases by 1629. To be completely fair, your build is almost the extreme. Where Masel's calculations seem to be pve based and average based. You are stacking max magicka thru base values instead of amplifiers, 'average' build does it opposite.
I know that doesnt make it better. You will be nerfed. Not just you, but very few people like you. Basically any magsorc build stacking max magicka throu sets (instead of multipliers) and specializing in elemental damage.

A shocking revelation. I thought, my magicka stacking is quite down to earth. 44k magicka is very low in my eyes and I am forced to wear mighty chudan, impen, low quality food etc.

I thank you for your kind council. Everyone else is trying to tell me I'm wrong.

we were not telling you were wrong, we said we wanted to figure out how you are so off the average, which you are and you were stone walling us at every turn till you posted your stats and a detailed explanation of how you got there. you need to stop trying to make everything personal( like you called masal lier and all that garbage you were shoveling towards me) . it really makes your statements look like they are fraudulent.

As I said. I consider my stats to be absolutely average for pvp.
The very core of my statement remains true however. People will be nerfed. Not everyone, but more than enough people will.

Tetrafy · January 2019

So instead we removed alk the stats because we just nerfed everything so it doesn't matter anyways what you pick.

Sevalaricgirl · January 2019

mirog wrote: »

imperial seems very underwhelming compared to everything else FeelsBadMan

I agree with that. While I'm happy with the Khajiit changes, I have 2 magicka khajiit, I, too, think the Imperial passives are completely underwhelming. I have an Imperial dk and warden and though I'd never change them, I think they really needed a buff. It wasn't good before and now it's even worse.

Sevalaricgirl · January 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

weedgenius wrote: »

Khajiit
Stealthy: Reduce detection radius by 3m and Increase damage from Stealth by 10% → Lunar Blessings: Increases your Max Health, Magicka, and Stamina by 750.

Overall some very interesting and pleasant stuff but this one is bizarre. Just... what? I think removing the Khajiit stealth bonus is lame enough, but the replacement passive is just "If you play a Khajiit you get 750 extra in your stats." I dunno, just strikes me as off.

Also bummed about Dunmer losing the passive bonus to flame damage. That was a really fun racial bonus that seemed to fit well, although I understand your reasoning based on the problem that was outlined.

Read on with the Khajiit, they get a 5m reduction to their detection radius in the next passive. So they end up with better stealth than they had before (by 2m). However, they do lose the 10% bonus to damage from stealth. Pity the Bosmer who lose stealth and damage from stealth to get a better detection range (which is useless outside of Cyrodil) and a replication of a Bow skill tree passive.

Bosmer effectively have one fewer racial passive than every other race.

A long time ago, my Bosmer was relegated to being my crafter because they screwed up the Bosmer so badly.