Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21
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Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »@Dracane The thing is, that I do want to be convinced. I merely do not see the reality behind your math, which makes it not convincing to me.
Says the guy with exactly zero calculations in their posts. Just end numbers that we have no idea how you got there and therefore have no reason to believe you..You yourself even said that these changes are supposed to be a buff when you are in a raid with all buffs applied.
*Citation needed
You really are an exceptionally aggressive individual.
Where? Here is every one of your comments from the last three pagesI went into detail how I got my numbers.SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »Pretty good, overall.
Breton looks like it needs a bit more work to bring it up to par with High Elf.
It does not. Bretons are not on par with high elves lore wise and they must not be here either. They are have more than they should have. They are but Half Mer.Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:
This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?
But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.
There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).
Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.
I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.
To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.
This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.
I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.
And btw, this was not done with a calculator like you seemingly did. It was by actually comparing the tooltips.Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:
This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?
But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.
There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).
Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.
I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.
To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.
This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.
I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.
huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.
No, I loose over 1700 magicka. For your build, that might be the case. But not everyone uses your build and not everyone is a nightblade with mostly magic damage. It will be a nerf for many builds that do no follow your streamline.Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:
This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?
But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.
There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).
Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.
I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.
To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.
This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.
I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.
huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.
No, I loose over 1700 magicka. For your build, that might be the case. But not everyone uses your build and not everyone is a nightblade with mostly magic damage. It will be a nerf for many builds that do no follow your streamline.
Okay i am intrigued how you tested that. Explain to me how you lost 1700 magicka...
What am I supposed to explain ? The fact that gift of Magnus gives me 4237 magicka ?
In order to get to a loss of 1.7k you have to have over 70k magicka. i tried stacking as much as i could into max magicka and i couldnt get there. I'm sorry, but i trust the UESP guys and Combat Devs more than your own test.
Even IF you lose that 1700 magicka, you still get a return in exchange. On a sorcerer, 258 spell damage get boosted a lot (by major+minor sorcery+2% for every class skill on your bar) and even on a pet sorc it will most likely net you the same damage as before, simply because 258 spell damage outperform 4% damage done in CP content.
Then I have no clue how you came up with this. With 48k magicka, nothing fancy, 10% GoM gives me 4200 magicka. In pve it will be even more. I really don't know how you calculate those numbers. I can only say, it should be done rather than calculated.@Masel I have made a more careful test now and I am beginning to believe, you try to deceive people.
My magicka with Gift of Magnus is 48,898
Orginally I just slotted a mages ability (2%) magicka and took it by 5 which is 10%. I thought, maybe it does scale differently. But no, I was right. I removed gift of magnus and ended up with 44,655 Magicka, that is a 4213 difference !
Then I wanted to see how much magicka 2000 will end up being. I thought bright throats was perfect for this, as it gives 2000 magicka. But it turned out that Bright throats is bugged and its 2000 magicka do not scale, they remain roughly 2000 magicka (fix it maybe?
)
So I had to take 2 monster sets, which is a bit unprecise. But the number was roughly 2500. Hence I loose 1700 magicka and mind you, that is my pvp setup. The loss will be higher in pve where I have more magicka. Everyone has such magicka numbers in pve and everyone will loose the same amount as I do and everyone who actually tests this, will see this as well. A calculator theory will not reveal the truth. (eso's math is too messy to even be predicted)
Now a final test, to show you that Altmer will be nerfed by this.
Let us take force pulse as an example. My force pulse without 4% elemental damage, deals 2993 per element. (No glyph damage) With 4% added, it's 3081 (As I said, actually TESTED, not calculated)
Then I equipped 2 spell damage monster sets which give me exactly 258 base damage. Added to this is major sorcery and those few percent that the Sorcerer passive gives me (6% for me here) Force pulse now deals 3096 per element.
That is 45 damage more compared to elemental talent. Good on the first glance, right ? But now we consider loosing 1700 magicka or more (Every normal build will loose that, as my magicka numbers are totally normal) We can see that elemental damage will definately be worse now. Sure, pure magic damage profits from that, aka Nightblades and Templars. But Sorcerer and Dk and I dare say Wardens, do not. Most of their damage is elemental and will be weaker.
My conclusion is, that current ressource values for races are too low, especially for magicka builds. Ressource values would be raised by at least 500 to not pose a nerf for our current setups.Moonsorrow wrote: »@MaselJust a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere.
I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.
If that only was true. Your examples are for generic pve builds so the flat bonus numbers are like counted from pretty much base and for pve dps point of view.
So.. when one goes to pvp builds, and have been using the % bonus strengths to each race to build high on them to make setup based on that, then adding other things according to it. There are BIG nerfs and you should not try to deny them, or have you all forgot pvp builds completely? Not everyone plays with generic youtube shackle/seventh/Blood Spawn builds at pvp. There are big nerfs and way less versatility now with the new flat number approach, since there are not many % based bonuses on sets.
Example: Nord, No-CP (Battlegrounds/Sotha Sil) : it had % based damage reduction, for pvp that actually did mitigate against bleeds, it had % Healthy Recovery. You could make big hp regen with that +20%. With the changes like these now on this preview. Nerfed in both cases.
Example: Khajiit. No-CP (Battlegrounds/Sotha Sil) : Health regen flat number +100 vs old +20% hp recovery. Now a simple question: Is old +20% hp recovery more with Troll King monster set, than the new +100? +20% wins by a large margin. Most of those type builds have more flat recovery bonuses on top of Troll King, so its even more.
I rest my case.
So what is "quite dangerous"? To let people know the truth that their pvp builds ARE getting nerfed and the flat values were clearly made for PVE base values in mind with low to average numbers in certain areas. Things will be nerfed hard on pvp builds. It is a fact.
That is my impression as well. I really mean no harm to anyone. Accusing someone is the last thing I want to do. But I can't help thinking that Masel tries to lie to us. All those calculations are not based on reality and are purely theoretical, hence not representative of the real results.
I think, they try to sell us nerfs as buffs.Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:
This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?
But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.
There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).
Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.
I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.
To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.
This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.
I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.
huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.
No, I loose over 1700 magicka. For your build, that might be the case. But not everyone uses your build and not everyone is a nightblade with mostly magic damage. It will be a nerf for many builds that do no follow your streamline.
Okay i am intrigued how you tested that. Explain to me how you lost 1700 magicka...
What am I supposed to explain ? The fact that gift of Magnus gives me 4237 magicka ?
In order to get to a loss of 1.7k you have to have over 70k magicka. i tried stacking as much as i could into max magicka and i couldnt get there. I'm sorry, but i trust the UESP guys and Combat Devs more than your own test.
Even IF you lose that 1700 magicka, you still get a return in exchange. On a sorcerer, 258 spell damage get boosted a lot (by major+minor sorcery+2% for every class skill on your bar) and even on a pet sorc it will most likely net you the same damage as before, simply because 258 spell damage outperform 4% damage done in CP content.
Then I have no clue how you came up with this. With 48k magicka, nothing fancy, 10% GoM gives me 4200 magicka. In pve it will be even more. I really don't know how you calculate those numbers. I can only say, it should be done rather than calculated.
It gives you 4200 magicka, i didnt debate that. Its just that the difference will not be 1700 magicka, especially in PvE, where you have more amplifiers than in solo/pvp content...Moonsorrow wrote: »@MaselJust a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere.
I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.
If that only was true. Your examples are for generic pve builds so the flat bonus numbers are like counted from pretty much base and for pve dps point of view.
So.. when one goes to pvp builds, and have been using the % bonus strengths to each race to build high on them to make setup based on that, then adding other things according to it. There are BIG nerfs and you should not try to deny them, or have you all forgot pvp builds completely? Not everyone plays with generic youtube shackle/seventh/Blood Spawn builds at pvp. There are big nerfs and way less versatility now with the new flat number approach, since there are not many % based bonuses on sets.
Example: Nord, No-CP (Battlegrounds/Sotha Sil) : it had % based damage reduction, for pvp that actually did mitigate against bleeds, it had % Healthy Recovery. You could make big hp regen with that +20%. With the changes like these now on this preview. Nerfed in both cases.
Example: Khajiit. No-CP (Battlegrounds/Sotha Sil) : Health regen flat number +100 vs old +20% hp recovery. Now a simple question: Is old +20% hp recovery more with Troll King monster set, than the new +100? +20% wins by a large margin. Most of those type builds have more flat recovery bonuses on top of Troll King, so its even more.
I rest my case.
So what is "quite dangerous"? To let people know the truth that their pvp builds ARE getting nerfed and the flat values were clearly made for PVE base values in mind with low to average numbers in certain areas. Things will be nerfed hard on pvp builds. It is a fact.
That is my impression as well. I really mean no harm to anyone. Accusing someone is the last thing I want to do. But I can't help thinking that Masel tries to lie to us. All those calculations are not based on reality and are purely theoretical, hence not representative of the real results.
I think, they try to sell us nerfs as buffs.
I try to lie to you? Good grief.
Please don't ride around on the negative. Why do you ignore the facts I have presented to you ?@Moonsorrow These changes were supervised by high end raidplayers. So this comes as no surprise and I wouldn't mind it, if these changes wouldn't seem so selfish. They may be favorable for 5%, but ignore the other 95%.Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »@Moonsorrow These changes were supervised by high end raidplayers. So this comes as no surprise and I wouldn't mind it, if these changes wouldn't seem so selfish. They may be favorable for 5%, but ignore the other 95%.
You are not the 95%. Your build is not average.
Yes, I am part of the 95%. Part of those people who are not high end raiders.
Everyone who is not them is the 95% and many of them will loose out more than they gain.
No where in that mess do you have a single full calculation. Just end numbers and you saying "well that just the way it is".
Uhm yes, I actually did. I said what my base magicka was. I said what gift of magnus gives me and then I went on to tell what I equip and change in order to make a comparison between 2k magicka and 10% magicka.
Then I went on to show why Altmer damage will be worse with these changes. I said what passive and buffs I apply, what I equip etc to show that 258 spell damage is not as powerful as people make it out to be in comparison to the current passive.
Also, nobody here went into as much detail as I did. Everyone just slaps numbers in your face and you buy it. But when someone tells you what they do to achieve it, you go blind and still and get aggressive.
Darling I get it, you want to support Masel. But the truth is, he can speak for himself and he does not need some vanguard.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos0 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »@Dracane The thing is, that I do want to be convinced. I merely do not see the reality behind your math, which makes it not convincing to me.
Says the guy with exactly zero calculations in their posts. Just end numbers that we have no idea how you got there and therefore have no reason to believe you..You yourself even said that these changes are supposed to be a buff when you are in a raid with all buffs applied.
*Citation needed
You really are an exceptionally aggressive individual.
Where? Here is every one of your comments from the last three pagesI went into detail how I got my numbers.SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »Pretty good, overall.
Breton looks like it needs a bit more work to bring it up to par with High Elf.
It does not. Bretons are not on par with high elves lore wise and they must not be here either. They are have more than they should have. They are but Half Mer.Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:
This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?
But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.
There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).
Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.
I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.
To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.
This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.
I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.
And btw, this was not done with a calculator like you seemingly did. It was by actually comparing the tooltips.Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:
This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?
But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.
There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).
Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.
I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.
To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.
This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.
I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.
huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.
No, I loose over 1700 magicka. For your build, that might be the case. But not everyone uses your build and not everyone is a nightblade with mostly magic damage. It will be a nerf for many builds that do no follow your streamline.Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:
This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?
But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.
There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).
Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.
I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.
To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.
This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.
I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.
huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.
No, I loose over 1700 magicka. For your build, that might be the case. But not everyone uses your build and not everyone is a nightblade with mostly magic damage. It will be a nerf for many builds that do no follow your streamline.
Okay i am intrigued how you tested that. Explain to me how you lost 1700 magicka...
What am I supposed to explain ? The fact that gift of Magnus gives me 4237 magicka ?
In order to get to a loss of 1.7k you have to have over 70k magicka. i tried stacking as much as i could into max magicka and i couldnt get there. I'm sorry, but i trust the UESP guys and Combat Devs more than your own test.
Even IF you lose that 1700 magicka, you still get a return in exchange. On a sorcerer, 258 spell damage get boosted a lot (by major+minor sorcery+2% for every class skill on your bar) and even on a pet sorc it will most likely net you the same damage as before, simply because 258 spell damage outperform 4% damage done in CP content.
Then I have no clue how you came up with this. With 48k magicka, nothing fancy, 10% GoM gives me 4200 magicka. In pve it will be even more. I really don't know how you calculate those numbers. I can only say, it should be done rather than calculated.@Masel I have made a more careful test now and I am beginning to believe, you try to deceive people.
My magicka with Gift of Magnus is 48,898
Orginally I just slotted a mages ability (2%) magicka and took it by 5 which is 10%. I thought, maybe it does scale differently. But no, I was right. I removed gift of magnus and ended up with 44,655 Magicka, that is a 4213 difference !
Then I wanted to see how much magicka 2000 will end up being. I thought bright throats was perfect for this, as it gives 2000 magicka. But it turned out that Bright throats is bugged and its 2000 magicka do not scale, they remain roughly 2000 magicka (fix it maybe? )
So I had to take 2 monster sets, which is a bit unprecise. But the number was roughly 2500. Hence I loose 1700 magicka and mind you, that is my pvp setup. The loss will be higher in pve where I have more magicka. Everyone has such magicka numbers in pve and everyone will loose the same amount as I do and everyone who actually tests this, will see this as well. A calculator theory will not reveal the truth. (eso's math is too messy to even be predicted)
Now a final test, to show you that Altmer will be nerfed by this.
Let us take force pulse as an example. My force pulse without 4% elemental damage, deals 2993 per element. (No glyph damage) With 4% added, it's 3081 (As I said, actually TESTED, not calculated)
Then I equipped 2 spell damage monster sets which give me exactly 258 base damage. Added to this is major sorcery and those few percent that the Sorcerer passive gives me (6% for me here) Force pulse now deals 3096 per element.
That is 45 damage more compared to elemental talent. Good on the first glance, right ? But now we consider loosing 1700 magicka or more (Every normal build will loose that, as my magicka numbers are totally normal) We can see that elemental damage will definately be worse now. Sure, pure magic damage profits from that, aka Nightblades and Templars. But Sorcerer and Dk and I dare say Wardens, do not. Most of their damage is elemental and will be weaker.
My conclusion is, that current ressource values for races are too low, especially for magicka builds. Ressource values would be raised by at least 500 to not pose a nerf for our current setups.Moonsorrow wrote: »@MaselJust a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere.
I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.
If that only was true. Your examples are for generic pve builds so the flat bonus numbers are like counted from pretty much base and for pve dps point of view.
So.. when one goes to pvp builds, and have been using the % bonus strengths to each race to build high on them to make setup based on that, then adding other things according to it. There are BIG nerfs and you should not try to deny them, or have you all forgot pvp builds completely? Not everyone plays with generic youtube shackle/seventh/Blood Spawn builds at pvp. There are big nerfs and way less versatility now with the new flat number approach, since there are not many % based bonuses on sets.
Example: Nord, No-CP (Battlegrounds/Sotha Sil) : it had % based damage reduction, for pvp that actually did mitigate against bleeds, it had % Healthy Recovery. You could make big hp regen with that +20%. With the changes like these now on this preview. Nerfed in both cases.
Example: Khajiit. No-CP (Battlegrounds/Sotha Sil) : Health regen flat number +100 vs old +20% hp recovery. Now a simple question: Is old +20% hp recovery more with Troll King monster set, than the new +100? +20% wins by a large margin. Most of those type builds have more flat recovery bonuses on top of Troll King, so its even more.
I rest my case.
So what is "quite dangerous"? To let people know the truth that their pvp builds ARE getting nerfed and the flat values were clearly made for PVE base values in mind with low to average numbers in certain areas. Things will be nerfed hard on pvp builds. It is a fact.
That is my impression as well. I really mean no harm to anyone. Accusing someone is the last thing I want to do. But I can't help thinking that Masel tries to lie to us. All those calculations are not based on reality and are purely theoretical, hence not representative of the real results.
I think, they try to sell us nerfs as buffs.Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:
This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?
But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.
There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).
Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.
I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.
To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.
This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.
I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.
huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.
No, I loose over 1700 magicka. For your build, that might be the case. But not everyone uses your build and not everyone is a nightblade with mostly magic damage. It will be a nerf for many builds that do no follow your streamline.
Okay i am intrigued how you tested that. Explain to me how you lost 1700 magicka...
What am I supposed to explain ? The fact that gift of Magnus gives me 4237 magicka ?
In order to get to a loss of 1.7k you have to have over 70k magicka. i tried stacking as much as i could into max magicka and i couldnt get there. I'm sorry, but i trust the UESP guys and Combat Devs more than your own test.
Even IF you lose that 1700 magicka, you still get a return in exchange. On a sorcerer, 258 spell damage get boosted a lot (by major+minor sorcery+2% for every class skill on your bar) and even on a pet sorc it will most likely net you the same damage as before, simply because 258 spell damage outperform 4% damage done in CP content.
Then I have no clue how you came up with this. With 48k magicka, nothing fancy, 10% GoM gives me 4200 magicka. In pve it will be even more. I really don't know how you calculate those numbers. I can only say, it should be done rather than calculated.
It gives you 4200 magicka, i didnt debate that. Its just that the difference will not be 1700 magicka, especially in PvE, where you have more amplifiers than in solo/pvp content...Moonsorrow wrote: »@MaselJust a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere.
I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.
If that only was true. Your examples are for generic pve builds so the flat bonus numbers are like counted from pretty much base and for pve dps point of view.
So.. when one goes to pvp builds, and have been using the % bonus strengths to each race to build high on them to make setup based on that, then adding other things according to it. There are BIG nerfs and you should not try to deny them, or have you all forgot pvp builds completely? Not everyone plays with generic youtube shackle/seventh/Blood Spawn builds at pvp. There are big nerfs and way less versatility now with the new flat number approach, since there are not many % based bonuses on sets.
Example: Nord, No-CP (Battlegrounds/Sotha Sil) : it had % based damage reduction, for pvp that actually did mitigate against bleeds, it had % Healthy Recovery. You could make big hp regen with that +20%. With the changes like these now on this preview. Nerfed in both cases.
Example: Khajiit. No-CP (Battlegrounds/Sotha Sil) : Health regen flat number +100 vs old +20% hp recovery. Now a simple question: Is old +20% hp recovery more with Troll King monster set, than the new +100? +20% wins by a large margin. Most of those type builds have more flat recovery bonuses on top of Troll King, so its even more.
I rest my case.
So what is "quite dangerous"? To let people know the truth that their pvp builds ARE getting nerfed and the flat values were clearly made for PVE base values in mind with low to average numbers in certain areas. Things will be nerfed hard on pvp builds. It is a fact.
That is my impression as well. I really mean no harm to anyone. Accusing someone is the last thing I want to do. But I can't help thinking that Masel tries to lie to us. All those calculations are not based on reality and are purely theoretical, hence not representative of the real results.
I think, they try to sell us nerfs as buffs.
I try to lie to you? Good grief.
Please don't ride around on the negative. Why do you ignore the facts I have presented to you ?@Moonsorrow These changes were supervised by high end raidplayers. So this comes as no surprise and I wouldn't mind it, if these changes wouldn't seem so selfish. They may be favorable for 5%, but ignore the other 95%.Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »@Moonsorrow These changes were supervised by high end raidplayers. So this comes as no surprise and I wouldn't mind it, if these changes wouldn't seem so selfish. They may be favorable for 5%, but ignore the other 95%.
You are not the 95%. Your build is not average.
Yes, I am part of the 95%. Part of those people who are not high end raiders.
Everyone who is not them is the 95% and many of them will loose out more than they gain.
No where in that mess do you have a single full calculation. Just end numbers and you saying "well that just the way it is".
Uhm yes, I actually did. I said what my base magicka was. I said what gift of magnus gives me and then I went on to tell what I equip and change in order to make a comparison between 2k magicka and 10% magicka.
Then I went on to show why Altmer damage will be worse with these changes. I said what passive and buffs I apply, what I equip etc to show that 258 spell damage is not as powerful as people make it out to be in comparison to the current passive.
Then post a screenshot or give exact details of your build. It is really simple. Till then I have zero reason to believe you.Also, nobody here went into as much detail as I did. Everyone just slaps numbers in your face and you buy it. But when someone tells you what they do to achieve it, you go blind and still and get aggressive.
Darling I get it, you want to support Masel. But the truth is, he can speak for himself and he does not need some vanguard.
Keep trying to goat me into a personal argument, makes you look so correct.0 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Dracane Can you share your build? I am really interested in where your numbers are coming from since even colossal 72k magicka build gets only 4897 magicka from current version of altmer passive.
Build:
Necro
Destruction Mastery
1p Domi
1pc Groth
All infused with max magicka
5 light 1 medium 1 heavy
Green food for 6k magicka
Magicka Mundus
Bound Aegis, Inner Light, 1 pet and 3 Mages guild abilities
Altmer
Warhorn
Max CP
=> 71988. Without altmer passive => 67091
Okay. What do you require of me ? What and how must I provide it ?
I really didn't think that this is needed. As what I did is easy to follow and my values are really average.
Even your difference is high. Adding bound armor and all those other %s do not change the outcome. Only base magicka matters. If you have 44k magicka as I do, then gift of magnus gives you 4200 magicka. That is easy to understand, is it not ?Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos0 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »@Dracane The thing is, that I do want to be convinced. I merely do not see the reality behind your math, which makes it not convincing to me.
Says the guy with exactly zero calculations in their posts. Just end numbers that we have no idea how you got there and therefore have no reason to believe you..You yourself even said that these changes are supposed to be a buff when you are in a raid with all buffs applied.
*Citation needed
You really are an exceptionally aggressive individual.
Where? Here is every one of your comments from the last three pagesI went into detail how I got my numbers.SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »Pretty good, overall.
Breton looks like it needs a bit more work to bring it up to par with High Elf.
It does not. Bretons are not on par with high elves lore wise and they must not be here either. They are have more than they should have. They are but Half Mer.Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:
This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?
But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.
There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).
Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.
I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.
To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.
This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.
I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.
And btw, this was not done with a calculator like you seemingly did. It was by actually comparing the tooltips.Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:
This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?
But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.
There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).
Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.
I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.
To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.
This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.
I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.
huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.
No, I loose over 1700 magicka. For your build, that might be the case. But not everyone uses your build and not everyone is a nightblade with mostly magic damage. It will be a nerf for many builds that do no follow your streamline.Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:
This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?
But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.
There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).
Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.
I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.
To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.
This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.
I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.
huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.
No, I loose over 1700 magicka. For your build, that might be the case. But not everyone uses your build and not everyone is a nightblade with mostly magic damage. It will be a nerf for many builds that do no follow your streamline.
Okay i am intrigued how you tested that. Explain to me how you lost 1700 magicka...
What am I supposed to explain ? The fact that gift of Magnus gives me 4237 magicka ?
In order to get to a loss of 1.7k you have to have over 70k magicka. i tried stacking as much as i could into max magicka and i couldnt get there. I'm sorry, but i trust the UESP guys and Combat Devs more than your own test.
Even IF you lose that 1700 magicka, you still get a return in exchange. On a sorcerer, 258 spell damage get boosted a lot (by major+minor sorcery+2% for every class skill on your bar) and even on a pet sorc it will most likely net you the same damage as before, simply because 258 spell damage outperform 4% damage done in CP content.
Then I have no clue how you came up with this. With 48k magicka, nothing fancy, 10% GoM gives me 4200 magicka. In pve it will be even more. I really don't know how you calculate those numbers. I can only say, it should be done rather than calculated.@Masel I have made a more careful test now and I am beginning to believe, you try to deceive people.
My magicka with Gift of Magnus is 48,898
Orginally I just slotted a mages ability (2%) magicka and took it by 5 which is 10%. I thought, maybe it does scale differently. But no, I was right. I removed gift of magnus and ended up with 44,655 Magicka, that is a 4213 difference !
Then I wanted to see how much magicka 2000 will end up being. I thought bright throats was perfect for this, as it gives 2000 magicka. But it turned out that Bright throats is bugged and its 2000 magicka do not scale, they remain roughly 2000 magicka (fix it maybe? )
So I had to take 2 monster sets, which is a bit unprecise. But the number was roughly 2500. Hence I loose 1700 magicka and mind you, that is my pvp setup. The loss will be higher in pve where I have more magicka. Everyone has such magicka numbers in pve and everyone will loose the same amount as I do and everyone who actually tests this, will see this as well. A calculator theory will not reveal the truth. (eso's math is too messy to even be predicted)
Now a final test, to show you that Altmer will be nerfed by this.
Let us take force pulse as an example. My force pulse without 4% elemental damage, deals 2993 per element. (No glyph damage) With 4% added, it's 3081 (As I said, actually TESTED, not calculated)
Then I equipped 2 spell damage monster sets which give me exactly 258 base damage. Added to this is major sorcery and those few percent that the Sorcerer passive gives me (6% for me here) Force pulse now deals 3096 per element.
That is 45 damage more compared to elemental talent. Good on the first glance, right ? But now we consider loosing 1700 magicka or more (Every normal build will loose that, as my magicka numbers are totally normal) We can see that elemental damage will definately be worse now. Sure, pure magic damage profits from that, aka Nightblades and Templars. But Sorcerer and Dk and I dare say Wardens, do not. Most of their damage is elemental and will be weaker.
My conclusion is, that current ressource values for races are too low, especially for magicka builds. Ressource values would be raised by at least 500 to not pose a nerf for our current setups.Moonsorrow wrote: »@MaselJust a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere.
I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.
If that only was true. Your examples are for generic pve builds so the flat bonus numbers are like counted from pretty much base and for pve dps point of view.
So.. when one goes to pvp builds, and have been using the % bonus strengths to each race to build high on them to make setup based on that, then adding other things according to it. There are BIG nerfs and you should not try to deny them, or have you all forgot pvp builds completely? Not everyone plays with generic youtube shackle/seventh/Blood Spawn builds at pvp. There are big nerfs and way less versatility now with the new flat number approach, since there are not many % based bonuses on sets.
Example: Nord, No-CP (Battlegrounds/Sotha Sil) : it had % based damage reduction, for pvp that actually did mitigate against bleeds, it had % Healthy Recovery. You could make big hp regen with that +20%. With the changes like these now on this preview. Nerfed in both cases.
Example: Khajiit. No-CP (Battlegrounds/Sotha Sil) : Health regen flat number +100 vs old +20% hp recovery. Now a simple question: Is old +20% hp recovery more with Troll King monster set, than the new +100? +20% wins by a large margin. Most of those type builds have more flat recovery bonuses on top of Troll King, so its even more.
I rest my case.
So what is "quite dangerous"? To let people know the truth that their pvp builds ARE getting nerfed and the flat values were clearly made for PVE base values in mind with low to average numbers in certain areas. Things will be nerfed hard on pvp builds. It is a fact.
That is my impression as well. I really mean no harm to anyone. Accusing someone is the last thing I want to do. But I can't help thinking that Masel tries to lie to us. All those calculations are not based on reality and are purely theoretical, hence not representative of the real results.
I think, they try to sell us nerfs as buffs.Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:
This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?
But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.
There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).
Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.
I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.
To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.
This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.
I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.
huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.
No, I loose over 1700 magicka. For your build, that might be the case. But not everyone uses your build and not everyone is a nightblade with mostly magic damage. It will be a nerf for many builds that do no follow your streamline.
Okay i am intrigued how you tested that. Explain to me how you lost 1700 magicka...
What am I supposed to explain ? The fact that gift of Magnus gives me 4237 magicka ?
In order to get to a loss of 1.7k you have to have over 70k magicka. i tried stacking as much as i could into max magicka and i couldnt get there. I'm sorry, but i trust the UESP guys and Combat Devs more than your own test.
Even IF you lose that 1700 magicka, you still get a return in exchange. On a sorcerer, 258 spell damage get boosted a lot (by major+minor sorcery+2% for every class skill on your bar) and even on a pet sorc it will most likely net you the same damage as before, simply because 258 spell damage outperform 4% damage done in CP content.
Then I have no clue how you came up with this. With 48k magicka, nothing fancy, 10% GoM gives me 4200 magicka. In pve it will be even more. I really don't know how you calculate those numbers. I can only say, it should be done rather than calculated.
It gives you 4200 magicka, i didnt debate that. Its just that the difference will not be 1700 magicka, especially in PvE, where you have more amplifiers than in solo/pvp content...Moonsorrow wrote: »@MaselJust a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere.
I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.
If that only was true. Your examples are for generic pve builds so the flat bonus numbers are like counted from pretty much base and for pve dps point of view.
So.. when one goes to pvp builds, and have been using the % bonus strengths to each race to build high on them to make setup based on that, then adding other things according to it. There are BIG nerfs and you should not try to deny them, or have you all forgot pvp builds completely? Not everyone plays with generic youtube shackle/seventh/Blood Spawn builds at pvp. There are big nerfs and way less versatility now with the new flat number approach, since there are not many % based bonuses on sets.
Example: Nord, No-CP (Battlegrounds/Sotha Sil) : it had % based damage reduction, for pvp that actually did mitigate against bleeds, it had % Healthy Recovery. You could make big hp regen with that +20%. With the changes like these now on this preview. Nerfed in both cases.
Example: Khajiit. No-CP (Battlegrounds/Sotha Sil) : Health regen flat number +100 vs old +20% hp recovery. Now a simple question: Is old +20% hp recovery more with Troll King monster set, than the new +100? +20% wins by a large margin. Most of those type builds have more flat recovery bonuses on top of Troll King, so its even more.
I rest my case.
So what is "quite dangerous"? To let people know the truth that their pvp builds ARE getting nerfed and the flat values were clearly made for PVE base values in mind with low to average numbers in certain areas. Things will be nerfed hard on pvp builds. It is a fact.
That is my impression as well. I really mean no harm to anyone. Accusing someone is the last thing I want to do. But I can't help thinking that Masel tries to lie to us. All those calculations are not based on reality and are purely theoretical, hence not representative of the real results.
I think, they try to sell us nerfs as buffs.
I try to lie to you? Good grief.
Please don't ride around on the negative. Why do you ignore the facts I have presented to you ?@Moonsorrow These changes were supervised by high end raidplayers. So this comes as no surprise and I wouldn't mind it, if these changes wouldn't seem so selfish. They may be favorable for 5%, but ignore the other 95%.Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »@Moonsorrow These changes were supervised by high end raidplayers. So this comes as no surprise and I wouldn't mind it, if these changes wouldn't seem so selfish. They may be favorable for 5%, but ignore the other 95%.
You are not the 95%. Your build is not average.
Yes, I am part of the 95%. Part of those people who are not high end raiders.
Everyone who is not them is the 95% and many of them will loose out more than they gain.
No where in that mess do you have a single full calculation. Just end numbers and you saying "well that just the way it is".
Uhm yes, I actually did. I said what my base magicka was. I said what gift of magnus gives me and then I went on to tell what I equip and change in order to make a comparison between 2k magicka and 10% magicka.
Then I went on to show why Altmer damage will be worse with these changes. I said what passive and buffs I apply, what I equip etc to show that 258 spell damage is not as powerful as people make it out to be in comparison to the current passive.
Then post a screenshot or give exact details of your build. It is really simple. Till then I have zero reason to believe you.Also, nobody here went into as much detail as I did. Everyone just slaps numbers in your face and you buy it. But when someone tells you what they do to achieve it, you go blind and still and get aggressive.
Darling I get it, you want to support Masel. But the truth is, he can speak for himself and he does not need some vanguard.
Keep trying to goat me into a personal argument, makes you look so correct.
You have already started the personal argument with your viciousness 1 page ago.
I must not post anything, as every child can have 44k magicka, add gift of magnus and end up with 4200 more magicka. You can reproduce that. If you refuse to believe such a simple thing, than you are merely ignorant and I am in no need to provide anything.
I have posted in detail what I did. That is enough.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos0 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@Moonsorrow These changes were supervised by high end raidplayers. So this comes as no surprise and I wouldn't mind it, if these changes wouldn't seem so selfish. They may be favorable for 5%, but ignore the other 95%.
I am baffled by your statements. You accuse all of us to be biased and only think of PvE, even though we have a few very good PvP players among the reps that actually welcome these changes. I'll let you think whatever you want... I don't have the time or nerve to try and convince people that do not want to be convinced.
@Masel I have to admit that some of the changes seem to be indeed endgame PvE driven. Being the best PvE stam dps race is nothing which Dunmer's were asking for nor does it make much sense after all these years. Almost all races get something unique and even some build enabling passives (which I personally like a lot), meanwhile you take away the thing which makes Dunmer unique and giving them mirror stats, same as with Khajiit's. The thing which worries me the most is that the class doesn't really seem to be a good choice for mag Dk anymore and pushed into stam PvE dps instead. A bit love for mag Dk Dunmers would be great. The Khajiit crit passive is unique and the stat density from the passive is the highest from all racials but sadly crit chance isn't great in PvP and the health reg isn't really useful either. Something like crit dmg would still be unique but would also be more helpful in PvP (can't really say how it affects PvE since I don't play high end PvE).
However I really like the passive changes overall, didn't expected it to come out that well. Dunmer and Khajiit are my only concerns, the other changes look great and I can't wait to test it on PTS.I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.1 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Dracane Can you share your build? I am really interested in where your numbers are coming from since even colossal 72k magicka build gets only 4897 magicka from current version of altmer passive.
Build:
Necro
Destruction Mastery
1p Domi
1pc Groth
All infused with max magicka
5 light 1 medium 1 heavy
Green food for 6k magicka
Magicka Mundus
Bound Aegis, Inner Light, 1 pet and 3 Mages guild abilities
Altmer
Warhorn
Max CP
=> 71988. Without altmer passive => 67091
Okay. What do you require of me ? What and how must I provide it ?
I really didn't think that this is needed. As what I did is easy to follow and my values are really average.
Even your difference is high. Adding bound armor and all those other %s do not change the outcome. Only base magicka matters. If you have 44k magicka as I do, then gift of magnus gives you 4200 magicka. That is easy to understand, is it not ?
The thing is there could be bugs or undocumented changes that throw off yours or anyone elses calculations without knowing full build (like superstar addon would tell). For example mundus, food and necropotence were never affected by CP and shouldnt be (unless intentionally and secretly changed).
So it all matters. It could either improve Masels calculations or eso build tool by introducing unknown effect or it could improve your calculation by finding some mistake you have made.
Math is not magic. It has to work out or there is mistake in calculation.
//edit: Not to forget bugs that were present in game still few patches ago. Like having golden weapon on you improved resources from food by 10% for no reason but bad coding...
//edit2:
Mimicked your build by finding enough magicka value to get 4200 from magnus. Such build loses 1786 magicka next patch if they have no bonuses at all. I must say you are right, but also that your build is very much different and special to achieve this. Just by introducing very common 5/1/1 setup or inner light the loss is less than 1k.Edited by SodanTok on January 19, 2019 2:11PM1 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Dracane Can you share your build? I am really interested in where your numbers are coming from since even colossal 72k magicka build gets only 4897 magicka from current version of altmer passive.
Build:
Necro
Destruction Mastery
1p Domi
1pc Groth
All infused with max magicka
5 light 1 medium 1 heavy
Green food for 6k magicka
Magicka Mundus
Bound Aegis, Inner Light, 1 pet and 3 Mages guild abilities
Altmer
Warhorn
Max CP
=> 71988. Without altmer passive => 67091
Okay. What do you require of me ? What and how must I provide it ?
I really didn't think that this is needed. As what I did is easy to follow and my values are really average.
Even your difference is high. Adding bound armor and all those other %s do not change the outcome. Only base magicka matters. If you have 44k magicka as I do, then gift of magnus gives you 4200 magicka. That is easy to understand, is it not ?
The thing is there could be bugs or undocumented changes that throw off yours or anyone elses calculations without knowing full build (like superstar addon would tell). For example mundus, food and necropotence were never affected by CP and shouldnt be (unless intentionally and secretly changed).
So it all matters. It could either improve Masels calculations or eso build tool by introducing unknown effect or it could improve your calculation by finding some mistake you have made.
Math is not magic. It has to work out or there is mistake in calculation.
//edit: Not to forget bugs that were present in game still few patches ago. Like having golden weapon on you improved resources from food by 10% for no reason but bad coding...
That is unsettling I must admit. Food and Necro are not supposed to be affect by CP ? I am certain mine are and have always been.
So, here is what I was wearing:
2 might Chudany - max magicka, all impenetrable. (medium shoulders, heavy helmet)
5 necropotence - small pieces max magicka, 2 big pieces triune and all impenetrable.
3 bright throats yewelry - all Arcane with 1 regen glyph and 2 spell damage
1 Bright throats staff
Mage Mundus
Witch Mothers not so potent brew
max cp
no bound armor, no mages guild stuff.
My stats
Here is my magicka without gift of magnus. I only took a screenshot of the magicka bar yesterday, I do not want to spend 20k gold again to have it again.
Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos0 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Dracane yup. But now with your gear it doesnt matter if they still are or not. You are indeed getting 4173 from current Magnus. And next patch your max magicka pool decreases by 1629. To be completely fair, your build is almost the extreme. Where Masel's calculations seem to be pve based and average based. You are stacking max magicka thru base values instead of amplifiers, 'average' build does it opposite.
I know that doesnt make it better. You will be nerfed. Not just you, but very few people like you. Basically any magsorc build stacking max magicka throu sets (instead of multipliers) and specializing in elemental damage.3 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Dracane yup. But now with your gear it doesnt matter if they still are or not. You are indeed getting 4173 from current Magnus. And next patch your max magicka pool decreases by 1629. To be completely fair, your build is almost the extreme. Where Masel's calculations seem to be pve based and average based. You are stacking max magicka thru base values instead of amplifiers, 'average' build does it opposite.
I know that doesnt make it better. You will be nerfed. Not just you, but very few people like you. Basically any magsorc build stacking max magicka throu sets (instead of multipliers) and specializing in elemental damage.
A shocking revelation. I thought, my magicka stacking is quite down to earth. 44k magicka is very low in my eyes and I am forced to wear mighty chudan, impen, low quality food etc.
I thank you for your kind council. Everyone else is trying to tell me I'm wrong.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos1 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@Dracane yup. But now with your gear it doesnt matter if they still are or not. You are indeed getting 4173 from current Magnus. And next patch your max magicka pool decreases by 1629. To be completely fair, your build is almost the extreme. Where Masel's calculations seem to be pve based and average based. You are stacking max magicka thru base values instead of amplifiers, 'average' build does it opposite.
I know that doesnt make it better. You will be nerfed. Not just you, but very few people like you. Basically any magsorc build stacking max magicka throu sets (instead of multipliers) and specializing in elemental damage.
A shocking revelation. I thought, my magicka stacking is quite down to earth. 44k magicka is very low in my eyes and I am forced to wear mighty chudan, impen, low quality food etc.
I thank you for your kind council. Everyone else is trying to tell me I'm wrong.
we were not telling you were wrong, we said we wanted to figure out how you are so off the average, which you are and you were stone walling us at every turn till you posted your stats and a detailed explanation of how you got there, thank you for that little bit of evidance by the way. you need to stop trying to make everything personal( like you called masal lier and all that garbage you were shoveling towards me) . it really makes your statements look like they are fraudulent.Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on January 19, 2019 2:37PM2 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »@Dracane yup. But now with your gear it doesnt matter if they still are or not. You are indeed getting 4173 from current Magnus. And next patch your max magicka pool decreases by 1629. To be completely fair, your build is almost the extreme. Where Masel's calculations seem to be pve based and average based. You are stacking max magicka thru base values instead of amplifiers, 'average' build does it opposite.
I know that doesnt make it better. You will be nerfed. Not just you, but very few people like you. Basically any magsorc build stacking max magicka throu sets (instead of multipliers) and specializing in elemental damage.
A shocking revelation. I thought, my magicka stacking is quite down to earth. 44k magicka is very low in my eyes and I am forced to wear mighty chudan, impen, low quality food etc.
I thank you for your kind council. Everyone else is trying to tell me I'm wrong.
we were not telling you were wrong, we said we wanted to figure out how you are so off the average, which you are and you were stone walling us at every turn till you posted your stats and a detailed explanation of how you got there. you need to stop trying to make everything personal( like you called masal lier and all that garbage you were shoveling towards me) . it really makes your statements look like they are fraudulent.
As I said. I consider my stats to be absolutely average for pvp.
The very core of my statement remains true however. People will be nerfed. Not everyone, but more than enough people will.
Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos0 -
Tetrafy✭✭✭✭So instead we removed alk the stats because we just nerfed everything so it doesn't matter anyways what you pick.1 -
Sevalaricgirl✭✭✭✭✭imperial seems very underwhelming compared to everything else FeelsBadMan
I agree with that. While I'm happy with the Khajiit changes, I have 2 magicka khajiit, I, too, think the Imperial passives are completely underwhelming. I have an Imperial dk and warden and though I'd never change them, I think they really needed a buff. It wasn't good before and now it's even worse.1 -
Sevalaricgirl✭✭✭✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »weedgenius wrote: »Khajiit
Stealthy: Reduce detection radius by 3m and Increase damage from Stealth by 10% → Lunar Blessings: Increases your Max Health, Magicka, and Stamina by 750.
Overall some very interesting and pleasant stuff but this one is bizarre. Just... what? I think removing the Khajiit stealth bonus is lame enough, but the replacement passive is just "If you play a Khajiit you get 750 extra in your stats." I dunno, just strikes me as off.
Also bummed about Dunmer losing the passive bonus to flame damage. That was a really fun racial bonus that seemed to fit well, although I understand your reasoning based on the problem that was outlined.
Read on with the Khajiit, they get a 5m reduction to their detection radius in the next passive. So they end up with better stealth than they had before (by 2m). However, they do lose the 10% bonus to damage from stealth. Pity the Bosmer who lose stealth and damage from stealth to get a better detection range (which is useless outside of Cyrodil) and a replication of a Bow skill tree passive.
Bosmer effectively have one fewer racial passive than every other race.
A long time ago, my Bosmer was relegated to being my crafter because they screwed up the Bosmer so badly.1 -
Eiagra✭✭✭✭✭I was curious what changes would be upcoming, and will admit to some fears that this could be mishandled. As a player, I don't have access to the tools you use to numberically balance, all I can do is state how some of these changes "feel".
I play orcs. I only ever actively play orcs. My main is an Orc Magicka Templar. I have one of each other classes, whose builds tend to be more flexible, but I tend to stick with Magicka Templar because I want to be able to cast effective healing. This all means I will have a slight bias towards the sexiest race in the game: Orcs.
My observations will largely be focused there, though I will make a few other observations after.
Flavor Passive: 10% Inspiration Gain.
This is probably one of the most logical, but least useful, flavor passives in terms of constant utility.
Altmer are always gaining experience points.
Argonians with Rapids cut through water like a hot knife through butter and it's pretty amazing.
Gravity is always a thing, the 10% fall damage reduction Bosmer get always has that potential for use.
AP gain is only useful for PvP, but at least it is constantly active.
50% reduced lava damage... I mean, if a Dunmer falls into a volcano, that's pretty clumsy, but at least it's constantly active.
1% gold gain is pretty weak since, even if it rounds up, that's maybe 1 coin off of a mob. But at least it's constantly active.
5% pickpocket is constantly active, and useful for Khajiit with grabby hands.
15 minutes on drink buffs for Nords and 15 minutes on food buffs for Redguard is always always useful.
And orcs? The instant you've maxed out your craft skills, the passive is rendered utterly useless. It is literally the only passive amongst the races that can be turned off over time.
It's great that this flavor passive fits the lore, but not so great that it grants no benefit to those who have achieved mastery. I actually had zero benefit the entire time until Summerset, as when flavor passives came out I already had a maxed crafter, and once Jewelrycrafting was released that was the only exercise it got -- for a brief period until that skill hit 50.
Could use a little love. Ask the question: What crafting related benefit could be granted that will always be active? (Refine/deconstruct bonuses? Chance to use fewer resources when crafting/improving?)
Brawny: Max Health and Stamina +500. This is the weakest resource passive of all of the races. Dunmer get 1250 for their split Stamina/Magicka. Single boosts are either 2000, or 1000-1500 with auxillary (often powerful) extras. Double boosts are a flat 1250. Triple are 750. Orcs are getting the short end of the stick here. Could use a lot more love. Or a better explaination why.
Unflinching: Healing Received +4% (down 1%), regain 380 Health and Stamina every 4 seconds with a weapon ability. Do Light/Heavy attacks count? I'm thinking it doesn't, since Altmer have a class ability resource regain. Also, Altmer get whichever is higher. And more of it (though with a longer cooldown). This strikes me as pretty inflexible. Imperial has the right idea with activating a passive through Direct Damage -- DD or DoT seem like they would have more broad applications. Same with Instant or Cast/Channel.
Swift Warrior: Weapon Damage +258. Sprint Cost -12% and Sprint Speed +10%. More of a personal gripe. This change reduces flexibility even further -- Melee may have seemed niche, but aren't there Magicka Melee abilities like Jabs? That at least gave some benefit. I understand wanting something applicable more broadly, but plenty of stereotypes will be happy with the change, I guess. Maybe I wouldn't be so critical of this change if the more "universally applicable" passives weren't so limpid. Can Direct-Damage/DOT/Instant-Attack/Cast-or-Channel be utilized here (and Altmer's Spellcharge)?
Overall, I'm left feeling that orcs aren't getting anywhere near the love they deserve. How is it Orc's Brawny is so flaccid compared to Dunmer's Dynamic when both have a similar function to raise attributes? Why do only Weapon Abilities activate Unflinching (I could make the same complaint about Class Abilities and Spellcharge, but I'm waving an Orsimer banner here). And why in all that's holy do we have a flavor passive that is turned OFF at endgame instead of providing a constant benefit -- even if that benefit is marginal?
Is it because of the sexy? Did all the sexy orcs possess consume all the numbers in whatever algorhythm you're using? Because while sexy is universally applicable and very powerful, it's not exactly game-breaking.
Either way, I'm failing to see how these balances are on par with the other races.
Random side observations: Khajiit Robustness is laughably miniscule since it's only 100/75/75 every 2 seconds. Argonian's Resourceful is still overpowered since it's still basically half a Tri-potion for free by quaffing any garbage you can find in the street.
I could probably nit-pick further, but this will suffice for stage one. The main take-away here is ORCS NEED LOVE.██████ █████████ ███████ In verity.9 -
Sevalaricgirl✭✭✭✭✭LightMaster7 wrote: »So is this a big FU to redguard sorcerers? So now your saying any class that doesn't have a magic bonus has no business being a magic user or sorcerer class?
Really, the passives are so bad does it really matter. I have two khajiit magicka users before this change went into effect, one that I am training up as a mag templar for our dungeon group. Play your Redguard sorc just find a dungeon group that won't have a problem with that or build one yourself.0 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Masel , suppose we'll wait for PTS to roll out. I want to believe, I very much do, just as yourself. But seeing redguard buffs (even max stats turned out to be a buff for most builds, not counting 100-150 regen compared to live), dunmer, orc, wood elf... As a stamina DD (without any crit buffs, too), I see 75 regen and 750 max stamina as a hefty slap in the face when other races bolt way ahead of me. Again.1 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭John_Falstaff wrote: »@Masel , suppose we'll wait for PTS to roll out. I want to believe, I very much do, just as yourself. But seeing redguard buffs (even max stats turned out to be a buff for most builds, not counting 100-150 regen compared to live), dunmer, orc, wood elf... As a stamina DD (without any crit buffs, too), I see 75 regen and 750 max stamina as a hefty slap in the face when other races bolt way ahead of me. Again.
Unless you have minimal cp in mooncalf AND you wear no medium armor AND/OR you dont use a stam potion, 75 regen is a buff for khajiit.
Some math
Old base khajiit
512(1 + .2 5 med armor + .2 potion + .12 cp + .1 khajiit) = 829
New base khajiit
(512 + 75 khajiit) (1 + .2 5 med armor + .2 potion + .12 cp) = 892
Old khajiit with dubious
(512 + 318 dubious) (1 + .2 5 med armor + .2 potion + .12 cp + .1 khajiit) = 1345
New khajiit with dubious
(512 + 318 dubious + 75 khajiit ) (1 + .2 5 med armor + .2 potion + .12 cp) = 13762 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@JobooAGS , I know, the equlibrium point is around 1270, I was bringing same numbers earlier, a few pages before in this thread. My point is, yes, khajiit got a tiny buff in regen, a tiny buff in max stats. For comparison: redguard got a buff in max stats (small, but still a buff, as long as you're below ~35k max stamina, which is most of the time), and a hefty 100-150 more stamina regen. Meta becomes stronger. Underdogs are at the back of the bus where they were.Edited by John_Falstaff on January 19, 2019 4:20PM2 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭John_Falstaff wrote: »@JobooAGS , I know, the equlibrium point is around 1270, I was bringing same numbers earlier, a few pages before in this thread. My point is, yes, khajiit got a tiny buff in regen, a tiny buff in max stats. For comparison: redguard got a buff in max stats (small, but still a buff, as long as you're below ~35k max stamina, which is most of the time), and a hefty 100-150 more stamina regen. Meta becomes stronger. Underdogs are at the back of the bus where they were.
I think that is ignoring the 750 base stam Khajits gained. If Khajit were close to Redguard with worse sustain, when it was 8%crit to 10% stam, then 8% crit + 750 stam should be better than 2k stam. With worse sustain of course.
I'm not sure how that will play out functionally, but I think Khajits are being written off too soon.Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..0 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭John_Falstaff wrote: »@JobooAGS , I know, the equlibrium point is around 1270, I was bringing same numbers earlier, a few pages before in this thread. My point is, yes, khajiit got a tiny buff in regen, a tiny buff in max stats. For comparison: redguard got a buff in max stats (small, but still a buff, as long as you're below ~35k max stamina, which is most of the time), and a hefty 100-150 more stamina regen. Meta becomes stronger. Underdogs are at the back of the bus where they were.
8% crit damage is better than 2k extra stam and arguably better than 258 weapon damage and stam. In pvp, you have a point due to inpen being prevalent. Maybe a passive that ignores some crit resistance?0 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Toc de Malsvi , I think that someone calculated in neighboring thread that at 31k max stamina, redguard's up by ~191 stamina - so in relative terms, khajiit's up by ~560 stamina total; no doubt, it's a bit smaller gap than before. But again, it wouldn't mean a lot if khajiits will be forced to run Dubious/Witchmother's (losing all max stat advantage) where redguards/bretons/altmers will be able to sustain blue food. I suppose PTS will show.
@JobooAGS , mm-m, in PvP, true, that would be a disadvantage on top of less regen in high-regen builds. (Edit: just noticed I've misread. So yes, crit resistance is interesting, but I think too narrow to be included into racials.) Another thing I wonder about is viability of khajiit healer - I don't think spell crit plays a huge role there (is it better to get reliable base heals with spell damage?), but then I may be mistaken.
I usually don't think up some specific ideas, not my thing - hey, even reps don't get to propose anything concrete to devs - but in my mind's eye, when intentions were first announcements, I imagined something like... say, having tier I racial giving 75 stamina and magicka regen, but tier II racial giving either 150 stamina or 150 magicka regen, by choice; and same with max stat. But since there's no precedent with other races, I don't think anything like that has a chance to be implemented.Edited by John_Falstaff on January 19, 2019 5:27PM0 -
Ri_Khan✭✭✭✭✭
✭The one thing that really stands out with these proposed changes is the Bosmer losing their stealth bonus. Is the detection bonus as good? That's subjective but I sure as hell don't think so, especially considering the increased bonus for Khajiit. If there are multiple races that excel as warriors and mages, why would the thief only get one? I thought the reason behind these changes was to increase play-style viability. Instead I'm seeing an unnecessary nerf to a race that I've already overlooked.
Before assuming I'm biased because "muh woodelfs", I don't even play a Bosmer and my main's a Khajiit stamblade. I should be bitching about losing the stealth attack bonus that I've fully taken advantage of since the beginning, no?4 -
CaptSausageSoul ShrivenWhy did you nerf my Wood Elf Thief? I don't want to play a Khajiit just to have a decent sneak thief. Give me back my reduced detection radius.9
-
MotokoHutt✭✭✭✭Wow Zos, way to destroy Orc's ever being a race that anyone plays ever again, thanks for the huge nerf that was unpresedented. I mean I know we are the oucast praiah race but damn, even the developers hate us not just the denizens of Tamriel. I mean you said yourself in the current game "The delta between some races is noticeably high, leaving some races feeling left behind" yet you want to make it worse? To quote you, you wanted to "Equalize the overall power that each race provides" yet you litteraly threw some races under the bus, case and point Orc's.
You claim that you want to "Achieve the above goals while still obeying our rich and structured lore and storytelling." yet your telling me that a Khajiit, Redguards, Imperial OR Dunmer are more physically Robost and better warriors then an Orc? lets do a side by side comparison for you to outline what I am getting at.
Orcs
Brawny: Increases your Max Health and Stamina by 500.
Unflinching: Increases your Healing Received by 4%. When you deal damage with a weapon ability you restore 380 Health and Stamina. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds.
Swift Warrior: Increases your Weapon Damage by 258. Reduces the cost of your Sprint ability by 12% and increases your Movement Speed while Sprinting by 10%.
Dunmer
Dynamic: Increases your Max Stamina and Magicka by 1250.
Resist Flame: Increases your Max Health by 600 and your Flame Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Burning status effect.
Ruination: Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258.
So lets see, Dunmer 1250 magicka and stamina, 600 health. Orc? 500 max health and stamina.
Dunmer, 258 weapon and spell damage. Orc? 258 weapon damage only.
Dunmer, complete imunity to burning status effect and a huge resistance to fire damage aka the most prominant damage type in the entire game. Orcs? A pointless sprint speed buff that makes no lore sense and a wannabe Adrenaline rush thats healing is so pointless it might aswell not exhist ESPECIALLY in pvp.
I mean enough said Zos, what was going through your mind when you thought these where in anyway balanced and fair. Fookin throw me a bone here Zos, cus frankly if these stats go live, you litterally killed the Orc race, cheers. xPC EU7 -
Feralmyst✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »weedgenius wrote: »Khajiit
Stealthy: Reduce detection radius by 3m and Increase damage from Stealth by 10% → Lunar Blessings: Increases your Max Health, Magicka, and Stamina by 750.
Overall some very interesting and pleasant stuff but this one is bizarre. Just... what? I think removing the Khajiit stealth bonus is lame enough, but the replacement passive is just "If you play a Khajiit you get 750 extra in your stats." I dunno, just strikes me as off.
Also bummed about Dunmer losing the passive bonus to flame damage. That was a really fun racial bonus that seemed to fit well, although I understand your reasoning based on the problem that was outlined.
Read on with the Khajiit, they get a 5m reduction to their detection radius in the next passive. So they end up with better stealth than they had before (by 2m). However, they do lose the 10% bonus to damage from stealth. Pity the Bosmer who lose stealth and damage from stealth to get a better detection range (which is useless outside of Cyrodil) and a replication of a Bow skill tree passive.
Bosmer effectively have one fewer racial passive than every other race.
Generally appreciate the thoughtfulness, thoroughness and initial efforts on the racial changes, but this Bosmer change on the stealth really makes cats class the only real stealth class for PvP especially12XX CP3 -
Azramel✭✭✭They really should just add morphs to racial passives so people can decide (theres that freedom of choice they want) what strengths of a race they wish to focus on rather than ZOS just spoon feeding us specific selections for the builds we want to play. There's no room for "personal preference" when they try to squeeze the most broad aspects of a race into 3 passives. This isn't balanced and it's not "expanding the horizon of choice". This is just another meta shift and feels like another cash grab.6 -
MotokoHutt✭✭✭✭Oh just a short little extra tid bit, common ZOS. For ages we have been eagerly awaiting these famed and highly hyped race changes and you gave us what? A rebalance of the racial passive that could have been done in a single arfternoon and shoved in some nameless incromental patch? FFS ZOS where are the racial active skills? why is there effectivly only 3 racial passive, why not 4 or 5 like plenty of other skill tree's?
Also Why do passives have to essentially effect stats all together? why can't they be flavour of how your race interacts with the world around them? Like maybe earning NPC discounts, having extra dialogue options? making certain enemies naturally passive? the list go's on for ways you can apply racial benefits on a fundemental gameplay level rather then just "Oooooo High elves are wizards so we gunna make them have good spell stats dooiiiii", no offence ment like, just the current racial system seems like a shallow and ultimatly fruitless system for nit picking META number crunchers to gripe over.Edited by MotokoHutt on January 19, 2019 7:56PMPC EU4 -
Tholian1✭✭✭✭✭
✭Could you please change the passive for Imperial that “Reduces the cost of your Block and Bash abilities by 5%.”, to reducing the cost of break free. As a non-tank Imperial, reducing the cost of Block and Bash isn’t very useful. @ZOS_GilliamPS4 Pro NA2 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Could use a little love. Ask the question: What crafting related benefit could be granted that will always be active? (Refine/deconstruct bonuses? Chance to use fewer resources when crafting/improving?)
Maybe slower item degradation / lower repair cost?
Something that always confused me is that Nords and Orcs are for some reason flipped in ESO. Historically in past games and in TES lore, Nords are stronger and more offensive than Orcs, who are more defensively oriented.
Taking a look at bonuses from Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim:
Morrowind
Skills: Armorer, Block, Heavy Armor, Medium Armor, Axe
Atttributes: Endurance 50, WIllpower 50, Strength 45
Trait: Resist Magic 25%
Oblivion
Skills: Armorer, Block, Blunt, Heavy Armor, Hand to Hand
Atttributes: Endurance 50, WIllpower 50, Strength 45
Trait: Resist Magic 25%
Skyrim
Skills: Heavy Armor, Block, Enchanting, One-Handed, Smithing, Two-Handed
Even in ESO, Orcs level heavy armor faster than any other race - yet, with this update, they become more squishy than Dunmer and Khajiit.
Orcs should be a sturdy race that stands its ground, and when conditions are met, can go into an offensive berserker rage. I don't see this reflected in ESO that well. And while I appreciate the faster sprint speed, it never made any sense for Orcs to have that, as historically they have been the slowest race of all. Bosmer, Dunmer, and Argonians are the fastest.
I hesitate to make suggestions, as they would probably change too much what Orcs are in ESO. But I don't think it's fair to nerf Orcs' capabilities as tanks so much, and it doesn't make any sense lore-wise.Edited by Faulgor on January 19, 2019 8:48PMAlandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.6