Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21

Argonianwerecroc212

I feel like you nerfed Argonians too hard and khajiits got a weak buff

Argonianwerecroc212

I feel like you nerfed Argonians too much and gave khajiits a weak buff

waitwhat

Argonianwerecroc212 wrote: »

I feel like you nerfed Argonians too hard and khajiits got a weak buff

The benefit to khajiit comes more from the clarification of the role of the Redguard and the new (long-requested) magicka route. 8% spell crit is no joke. It's hard for mag builds to get high crit, and this compensation among khajiit will allow them to accommodate a lower mag pool and lower spell damage.

Hell, they may end up making excellent magcers.

Feralmyst

Buddy_the_Guy wrote: »

I'm okay with ZOS giving the cat-people a 5m reduced detection radius, since they are sneaky cats, but, completely removing it from the hunter elf-people just doesn't make any sense. I mean, "Hunters never use camouflage to sneak up on, or ambush, prey.", said nobody...ever. Bosmers should retain their 3m reduced detection radius, in place of the increase in stealth detection.

Along the same lines, I never really understood ZOS's decision to give the cat-people, with claws for fingernails, a pickpocket bonus and the petite elf-people a reduction to fall damage. If one applies thinking to this, the cat-people should get the fall damage reduction and the elf-people should get the pickpocket bonus. I guess that's my bad for trying to apply logic and reason in this day and age.

I have maxed out all slots with lvl 50s on my account and CP1080 playing as many race/stam/mag combos as my account allows, but my main is a wood elf so I'm piling on about the above. Bosmers need to retain the reduced detection radius. Increase in stealth detection . . . I have no words for this ridiculousness

Dracane

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Pretty good, overall.

Breton looks like it needs a bit more work to bring it up to par with High Elf.

It does not. Bretons are not on par with high elves lore wise and they must not be here either. They are have more than they should have. They are but Half Mer.

JobooAGS

Twohothardware wrote: »

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

I like the changes in all.
But (why must there always be a but?^^): tbh redguard is op. why do u not have the ability to see this? now you have a delta again. Adrenalin rush is like 380 stam reg. woodelf which was the stam reg master only gets 258!?
6% max stat now goes to +2000 for most classes. for orc its just 500??

He lost his 9% Stamregpassiva...thats about 162 all 2 seconds. Redguard got a nerf.

Redguard's Adrenaline is getting an extra 158 Stam every 5 seconds on top of 8% cost reduction, they got a buff. Cost Reduction will make more of a difference in PvE builds especially where you run very low Recovery builds.

Pve bosmer nb with 258 regen
258(1+.15 nb +.1 relentless +.28 med armor + .15 cp + .2 potion) = 485 regen which is 105 greater than adreniline rush.

Add in vampire and you get 511 regen from the 258 regen which is 131 regen more than adreniline rush. Best yet, as long as you are not blocking, this regen is free meanwhile to get the full value out of redguard you need to be constsntly attacking and a perfect rotation (if you wany the full benefit from the 8% weapon ability cost reduction).

Anti_Virus

starkerealm wrote: »

Only one I'm worried about is the Redguard. Given how hard that race is pushed as "The Choice for StamDPS," buffing Adrenaline Rush feels like a mistake.

Leave redguards alone.

Anti_Virus

jlb1705 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Only one I'm worried about is the Redguard. Given how hard that race is pushed as "The Choice for StamDPS," buffing Adrenaline Rush feels like a mistake.

Is it not balanced by this part though?:

Exhilaration: 9% Stamina Recovery → Martial Training: Reduces the cost of your Weapon abilities by 8%.

This line is definitely a nerf - not just the difference between 9% and 8%, but the difference between passive recovery and cost reduction to only weapon skills. It sounds like the cost reduction wouldn't apply to things like Surprise Attack, Killer's Blade, Relentless Focus, Razor Caltrops, Resolving Vigor, Rearming Trap, etc.

Not quite It’s major buff actually if you play a stam DK/Sorc with heavy armor they use weapon abilities. Remember in lore redguards are a warrior race not assassins.

Masel

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:



This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

waitwhat

JobooAGS wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

I like the changes in all.
But (why must there always be a but?^^): tbh redguard is op. why do u not have the ability to see this? now you have a delta again. Adrenalin rush is like 380 stam reg. woodelf which was the stam reg master only gets 258!?
6% max stat now goes to +2000 for most classes. for orc its just 500??

He lost his 9% Stamregpassiva...thats about 162 all 2 seconds. Redguard got a nerf.

Redguard's Adrenaline is getting an extra 158 Stam every 5 seconds on top of 8% cost reduction, they got a buff. Cost Reduction will make more of a difference in PvE builds especially where you run very low Recovery builds.

Pve bosmer nb with 258 regen
258(1+.15 nb +.1 relentless +.28 med armor + .15 cp + .2 potion) = 485 regen which is 105 greater than adreniline rush.

Add in vampire and you get 511 regen from the 258 regen which is 131 regen more than adreniline rush. Best yet, as long as you are not blocking, this regen is free meanwhile to get the full value out of redguard you need to be constsntly attacking and a perfect rotation (if you wany the full benefit from the 8% weapon ability cost reduction).

The changes will be pretty nuanced, and we'll need to see testing numbers, but the redguard changes will only be a net sustain gain for specific classes/rotations. For example, a stamsorc PvE dps will use more weapon skills than a stamblade PvE dps if they follow predominate rotations.

Otherwise, it looks like the goal was to keep Redguard sustain the same (if not increase it a bit) while toning down their raw damage potential (see the max stam reduction).

The bosmer still seemed to be shoehorned into the "most stamina sustain" role, which is more fitting for PvP. So their PVE utility remains an issue.

The stealth change makes some sense from a lore persepective, in that the Bosmer are being interpreted as the hunters, whereas the khajiit would be the hunted. One would imagine the Bosmer to be an effective "nightblade-killer" in that they should see the opposing players before being seen, and have an easier time escaping/creating distance when detected.

Xvorg

thesoundofwolf wrote: »

I keep refreshing the top of the thread hoping that these changes for dunmer would be like 'APRIL FOOLS' or something, because say it isn't SOOOO!

The extra wpn and spell dmg is much better than the 7% extra flame dmg even in DK:

1. Your heals are better
2. your magic dmg will be much better (that includes using elements outside flame)
3. Your stamina pool will be much higher too, which is useful for block casting
4. Your bashes will be stronger (through weapon dmg)
5. On a HA dunmer, the health pool will be higher at 0 cost (at least 1 k if you consider juggernaut)
6. Finally what I've bees saying since some days: It is quite likely that the extra flame dmg is moved FROM dunmer to DK to make it similar to the energized passive of sorc. That was the main reason why DK didn't have a direct boost in their flame dmg, since a 12% extra dmg on dunmer DK was overkill

The only guys loosing here are those who liked to fight against a doll and show their numbers (as if they should mean something)...

Now dunmer coldblade is much more viable than before.

Dracane

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:



This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.

I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.

And btw, this was not done with a calculator like you seemingly did. It was by actually comparing the tooltips.

Deathlord92

Dracane wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Pretty good, overall.

Breton looks like it needs a bit more work to bring it up to par with High Elf.

It does not. Bretons are not on par with high elves lore wise and they must not be here either. They are have more than they should have. They are but Half Mer.

What Breton are godly and can blow high elf’s to oblivion 🔥

Deathlord92

What Bretons are godly and can blow high elf to oblivion 🔥

Masel

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:



This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.

I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.

huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.

Masel

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:



This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.

I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.

And btw, this was not done with a calculator like you seemingly did. It was by actually comparing the tooltips.

How do you compare this ingame? you add 2000 magicka in manually? High end sorcs use chrystal frags and curse....

Dracane

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:



This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.

I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.

huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.

No, I loose over 1700 magicka. For your build, that might be the case. But not everyone uses your build and not everyone is a nightblade with mostly magic damage. It will be a nerf for many builds that do no follow your streamline.

Masel

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:



This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.

I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.

huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.

No, I loose over 1700 magicka. For your build, that might be the case. But not everyone uses your build and not everyone is a nightblade with mostly magic damage. It will be a nerf for many builds that do no follow your streamline.

Okay i am intrigued how you tested that. Explain to me how you lost 1700 magicka...

Savos_Saren

Xvorg wrote: »

thesoundofwolf wrote: »

I keep refreshing the top of the thread hoping that these changes for dunmer would be like 'APRIL FOOLS' or something, because say it isn't SOOOO!

The extra wpn and spell dmg is much better than the 7% extra flame dmg even in DK:

1. Your heals are better
2. your magic dmg will be much better (that includes using elements outside flame)
3. Your stamina pool will be much higher too, which is useful for block casting
4. Your bashes will be stronger (through weapon dmg)
5. On a HA dunmer, the health pool will be higher at 0 cost (at least 1 k if you consider juggernaut)
6. Finally what I've bees saying since some days: It is quite likely that the extra flame dmg is moved FROM dunmer to DK to make it similar to the energized passive of sorc. That was the main reason why DK didn't have a direct boost in their flame dmg, since a 12% extra dmg on dunmer DK was overkill

The only guys loosing here are those who liked to fight against a doll and show their numbers (as if they should mean something)...

Now dunmer coldblade is much more viable than before.

An Altmer would benefit more from being a DK, though.

1. Their heals are better, too.
2. Their magic damage will be better.
3. Their magic pool is higher- so it increases their damage and sustain.
4. They receive a passive regen for every time they cast a class ability... which DKs cast A LOT of class abilities.
5. On a HA character, the health pool is higher regardless. 500 health isn't really going to make or break a character.
6. You're overlooking the fact that even if ZOS moves flame damage from Dunmer to DK- then Altmer DKs would benefit from the extra flame damage, too.

Masel

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

thesoundofwolf wrote: »

I keep refreshing the top of the thread hoping that these changes for dunmer would be like 'APRIL FOOLS' or something, because say it isn't SOOOO!

The extra wpn and spell dmg is much better than the 7% extra flame dmg even in DK:

1. Your heals are better
2. your magic dmg will be much better (that includes using elements outside flame)
3. Your stamina pool will be much higher too, which is useful for block casting
4. Your bashes will be stronger (through weapon dmg)
5. On a HA dunmer, the health pool will be higher at 0 cost (at least 1 k if you consider juggernaut)
6. Finally what I've bees saying since some days: It is quite likely that the extra flame dmg is moved FROM dunmer to DK to make it similar to the energized passive of sorc. That was the main reason why DK didn't have a direct boost in their flame dmg, since a 12% extra dmg on dunmer DK was overkill

The only guys loosing here are those who liked to fight against a doll and show their numbers (as if they should mean something)...

Now dunmer coldblade is much more viable than before.

An Altmer would benefit more from being a DK, though.

1. Their heals are better, too.
2. Their magic damage will be better.
3. Their magic pool is higher- so it increases their damage and sustain.
4. They receive a passive regen for every time they cast a class ability... which DKs cast A LOT of class abilities.
5. On a HA character, the health pool is higher regardless. 500 health isn't really going to make or break a character.
6. You're overlooking the fact that even if ZOS moves flame damage from Dunmer to DK- then Altmer DKs would benefit from the extra flame damage, too.

The Dunmer vs. Altmerp point is definetely a valid one, and I hope we can find a solution for it somehow.

Dracane

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:



This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.

I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.

huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.

No, I loose over 1700 magicka. For your build, that might be the case. But not everyone uses your build and not everyone is a nightblade with mostly magic damage. It will be a nerf for many builds that do no follow your streamline.

Okay i am intrigued how you tested that. Explain to me how you lost 1700 magicka...

What am I supposed to explain ? The fact that gift of Magnus gives me 4237 magicka ?

Naftal

I really hate that you're killing stealth for Wood Elves. I hate how Khajiit look and even though they're better for my playstyle right now, I'm ok with just having the reduced stealth detection range without the other useful Khajiit racials.

Not only are you killing stealth wood elf, you're buffing stealth Khajiit.

I don't know if there are any pvp/endgame balance issues with this, I just play solo.

I just got back into the game and this is killing the way I want to play. Elsweyr looked nice but now I can't justify spending more money on a game that might not have the character I've put a lot of effort on after a while.

Maybe consider letting us choose the racial passive tree seperate from our actual race, be it through ingame effort or straight-up paying you money.

RedRook

I like it. Thoughtful of you to rescue the Khajiit from narrow-niche purgatory right before their big show. And Dunmer are going to be much niftier.

Small quibbles:

1. That's a lot of stealth range reduction on said Khajiit. Maybe dial that back a little.

2. Still no magicka love for Imperials. Ok. Got it.

3. Shouldn't the Imperials make extra AP and the Bretons make extra gold? I know: past game passives. I know. But from a second era perspective, who are the merchants and who are the diplomats here?

So glad you're addressing this, it's needed doing for ages. And no CP raise next update! Wow.

Savos_Saren

Masel wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

thesoundofwolf wrote: »

I keep refreshing the top of the thread hoping that these changes for dunmer would be like 'APRIL FOOLS' or something, because say it isn't SOOOO!

The extra wpn and spell dmg is much better than the 7% extra flame dmg even in DK:

1. Your heals are better
2. your magic dmg will be much better (that includes using elements outside flame)
3. Your stamina pool will be much higher too, which is useful for block casting
4. Your bashes will be stronger (through weapon dmg)
5. On a HA dunmer, the health pool will be higher at 0 cost (at least 1 k if you consider juggernaut)
6. Finally what I've bees saying since some days: It is quite likely that the extra flame dmg is moved FROM dunmer to DK to make it similar to the energized passive of sorc. That was the main reason why DK didn't have a direct boost in their flame dmg, since a 12% extra dmg on dunmer DK was overkill

The only guys loosing here are those who liked to fight against a doll and show their numbers (as if they should mean something)...

Now dunmer coldblade is much more viable than before.

An Altmer would benefit more from being a DK, though.

1. Their heals are better, too.
2. Their magic damage will be better.
3. Their magic pool is higher- so it increases their damage and sustain.
4. They receive a passive regen for every time they cast a class ability... which DKs cast A LOT of class abilities.
5. On a HA character, the health pool is higher regardless. 500 health isn't really going to make or break a character.
6. You're overlooking the fact that even if ZOS moves flame damage from Dunmer to DK- then Altmer DKs would benefit from the extra flame damage, too.

The Dunmer vs. Altmerp point is definetely a valid one, and I hope we can find a solution for it somehow.

@Masel @zos_gilliam
@quantum_v

One thing that I did notice was that Altmer has one caveat in its passives that push it toward a sorc build:

" Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time." DKs don't have a channeled ability... but Sorcs have the most out of all the classes. I wonder if this passive was specially built for Altmer Sorcs in mind. (I know that there are other abilities that have channels... but this is just used for comparison)

So why not give Dunmer something like "Increases spell/weapon damage by 100 on enemies with an elemental/physical status effect"

That way, it slightly increases damage against enemies if you have chilled, concussed, poisoned, diseased, or burning against them. It still allows a Dunmer to be a hybrid and slightly closes the gap between the damage dealers.

Masel

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:



This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.

I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.

huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.

No, I loose over 1700 magicka. For your build, that might be the case. But not everyone uses your build and not everyone is a nightblade with mostly magic damage. It will be a nerf for many builds that do no follow your streamline.

Okay i am intrigued how you tested that. Explain to me how you lost 1700 magicka...

What am I supposed to explain ? The fact that gift of Magnus gives me 4237 magicka ?

In order to get to a loss of 1.7k you have to have over 70k magicka. i tried stacking as much as i could into max magicka and i couldnt get there. I'm sorry, but i trust the UESP guys and Combat Devs more than your own test.

Even IF you lose that 1700 magicka, you still get a return in exchange. On a sorcerer, 258 spell damage get boosted a lot (by major+minor sorcery+2% for every class skill on your bar) and even on a pet sorc it will most likely net you the same damage as before, simply because 258 spell damage outperform 4% damage done in CP content.

Masel

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

thesoundofwolf wrote: »

I keep refreshing the top of the thread hoping that these changes for dunmer would be like 'APRIL FOOLS' or something, because say it isn't SOOOO!

The extra wpn and spell dmg is much better than the 7% extra flame dmg even in DK:

1. Your heals are better
2. your magic dmg will be much better (that includes using elements outside flame)
3. Your stamina pool will be much higher too, which is useful for block casting
4. Your bashes will be stronger (through weapon dmg)
5. On a HA dunmer, the health pool will be higher at 0 cost (at least 1 k if you consider juggernaut)
6. Finally what I've bees saying since some days: It is quite likely that the extra flame dmg is moved FROM dunmer to DK to make it similar to the energized passive of sorc. That was the main reason why DK didn't have a direct boost in their flame dmg, since a 12% extra dmg on dunmer DK was overkill

The only guys loosing here are those who liked to fight against a doll and show their numbers (as if they should mean something)...

Now dunmer coldblade is much more viable than before.

An Altmer would benefit more from being a DK, though.

1. Their heals are better, too.
2. Their magic damage will be better.
3. Their magic pool is higher- so it increases their damage and sustain.
4. They receive a passive regen for every time they cast a class ability... which DKs cast A LOT of class abilities.
5. On a HA character, the health pool is higher regardless. 500 health isn't really going to make or break a character.
6. You're overlooking the fact that even if ZOS moves flame damage from Dunmer to DK- then Altmer DKs would benefit from the extra flame damage, too.

The Dunmer vs. Altmerp point is definetely a valid one, and I hope we can find a solution for it somehow.

@Masel @zos_gilliam

One thing that I did notice was that Altmer has one caveat in its passives that push it toward a sorc build:

" Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time." DKs don't have a channeled ability... but Sorcs have the most out of all the classes. I wonder if this passive was specially built for Altmer Sorcs in mind. (I know that there are other abilities that have channels... but this is just used for comparison)

So why not give Dunmer something like "Increases spell/weapon damage by 100 on enemies with an elemental/physical status effect"

That way, it slightly increases damage against enemies if you have chilled, concussed, poisoned, diseased, or burning against them. It still allows a Dunmer to be a hybrid and slightly closes the gap between the damage dealers.

Interesting idea. I always like status effect interaction.

VaxtinTheWolf

I don't agree with everything listed, but I'll say I'm glad that I have a various selection of Races for my chosen characters. My Dark Elf Sorc Tank is feeling kind of weird, considering I need Magic, not spell damage, for passive Twilight DPS and healing. And I also don't think Health Recovery should exist on any Race anymore.

With that said, I am a little excited for the many positives I can see as a player that primarily fills the Tank or healer roles.

John_Falstaff

@Masel , it seems that I was wrong (and the information from the threads I've been tapping into is outdated); if Caltrops were direct damage before, then they definitely aren't now - I've tested with Nerien'eth monster helm that should proc from direct damage only. So here's hoping that Adrenaline Rush will not be something that just always procs without any effort.

kambo_trick3yub17_ESO

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:



This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.

I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.

huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.

No, I loose over 1700 magicka. For your build, that might be the case. But not everyone uses your build and not everyone is a nightblade with mostly magic damage. It will be a nerf for many builds that do no follow your streamline.

Okay i am intrigued how you tested that. Explain to me how you lost 1700 magicka...

What am I supposed to explain ? The fact that gift of Magnus gives me 4237 magicka ?

In order to get to a loss of 1.7k you have to have over 70k magicka. i tried stacking as much as i could into max magicka and i couldnt get there. I'm sorry, but i trust the UESP guys and Combat Devs more than your own test.

Even IF you lose that 1700 magicka, you still get a return in exchange. On a sorcerer, 258 spell damage get boosted a lot (by major+minor sorcery+2% for every class skill on your bar) and even on a pet sorc it will most likely net you the same damage as before, simply because 258 spell damage outperform 4% damage done in CP content.

Wait what? Sorry I was just skimming through here. I hope I'm not reading this wrong but you're saying in order to lose 1.7k Magicka from JUST the Gift of Magnus Passive you would have to have 70k Magicka? That....doesn't sound right at all.

When I keep the exact same gear / skill points / CP and change ONLY Gift of Magnus passive from 3/3 and change it to 0/3 Gift of Magnus instead, I lose a really solid chunk more than 1700 Magicka in both CP and non-cp campaign and I'm only sitting at 37,132 Magicka (I can take pictures if needed).

How did you reach the conclusion that you have to have 70k Magicka in order to lose 1.7k Magicka from the Gift of Magnus Passive?

Dracane

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:



This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.

I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.

huge amount of magicka you lose? Look on the table above... 258 Spell Damage buffs healing too, and you lose 500 magicka, which is equal to 50 spell damage. So it is 200 spell damage vs. 4% damage done on 2/3 of your damage. There's no reason to be upset about this at all.

No, I loose over 1700 magicka. For your build, that might be the case. But not everyone uses your build and not everyone is a nightblade with mostly magic damage. It will be a nerf for many builds that do no follow your streamline.

Okay i am intrigued how you tested that. Explain to me how you lost 1700 magicka...

What am I supposed to explain ? The fact that gift of Magnus gives me 4237 magicka ?

In order to get to a loss of 1.7k you have to have over 70k magicka. i tried stacking as much as i could into max magicka and i couldnt get there. I'm sorry, but i trust the UESP guys and Combat Devs more than your own test.

Even IF you lose that 1700 magicka, you still get a return in exchange. On a sorcerer, 258 spell damage get boosted a lot (by major+minor sorcery+2% for every class skill on your bar) and even on a pet sorc it will most likely net you the same damage as before, simply because 258 spell damage outperform 4% damage done in CP content.

Then I have no clue how you came up with this. With 48k magicka, nothing fancy, 10% GoM gives me 4200 magicka. In pve it will be even more. I really don't know how you calculate those numbers. I can only say, it should be done rather than calculated.