Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21

Lord_Eomer

Wildberryjack wrote: »

Destructive Ancestry: 7% Flame damage and 2% Frost/Shock Damage → Ruination: Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258.

No. Leave Dunmer their flame damage bonus. Keep Destructive Ancestry as it is and add a Stam buff with weapon damage. That way Stam builds get a buff without taking away the unique flame affinity from the race or ruining Mag builds.

You want dumner just to be race built for magicka dk, unfair advantage. Fire damage buff need to go.

Schattenfluegel

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Caltrops, if memory serves, count as direct damage. Every stamina uses Caltrops, and they're always on the ground, so Adrenaline Rush got a buff actually - it'll be ticking like Swiss clock as long as Caltrops are down.

Are you sure about that?

Nope - didn't verify myself, it's just mentioned as such in a bunch of older posts around the forums. So at the very least it used to, but I'll test when I'll get around to.

Caldrops and Endless Hail are Dot Dmg (it starts as a dot in the tooltip)...Poison Injection and Rending Slashes have an Direct Dmg Initial Hit and after that, they are doting.

silver1surfer69

I like the changes in all.
But (why must there always be a but?^^):

- tbh redguard is op. why do u not have the ability to see this? now you have the delta again. Adrenalin rush is like 380 stam reg. woodelf which was the stam reg master only gets 258!?

- 6% max stat now goes to +2000 for most classes. for orc its just 500??

JobooAGS

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

I like the changes in all.
But (why must there always be a but?^^): tbh redguard is op. why do u not have the ability to see this? now you have a delta again. Adrenalin rush is like 380 stam reg. woodelf which was the stam reg master only gets 258!?
6% max stat now goes to +2000 for most classes. for orc its just 500??

see the above posts as to why the 258 regen is actually much more...

Schattenfluegel

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

I like the changes in all.
But (why must there always be a but?^^): tbh redguard is op. why do u not have the ability to see this? now you have a delta again. Adrenalin rush is like 380 stam reg. woodelf which was the stam reg master only gets 258!?
6% max stat now goes to +2000 for most classes. for orc its just 500??

He lost his 9% Stamregpassiva...thats about 162 all 2 seconds. Redguard got a nerf.

Buddy_the_Guy

I'm okay with ZOS giving the cat-people a 5m reduced detection radius, since they are sneaky cats, but, completely removing it from the hunter elf-people just doesn't make any sense. I mean, "Hunters never use camouflage to sneak up on, or ambush, prey.", said nobody...ever. Bosmers should retain their 3m reduced detection radius, in place of the increase in stealth detection.

Along the same lines, I never really understood ZOS's decision to give the cat-people, with claws for fingernails, a pickpocket bonus and the petite elf-people a reduction to fall damage. If one applies thinking to this, the cat-people should get the fall damage reduction and the elf-people should get the pickpocket bonus. I guess that's my bad for trying to apply logic and reason in this day and age.

Cundu_Ertur

Buddy_the_Guy wrote: »

I'm okay with ZOS giving the cat-people a 5m reduced detection radius, since they are sneaky cats, but, completely removing it from the hunter elf-people just doesn't make any sense. I mean, "Hunters never use camouflage to sneak up on, or ambush, prey.", said nobody...ever. Bosmers should retain their 3m reduced detection radius, in place of the increase in stealth detection.

Along the same lines, I never really understood ZOS's decision to give the cat-people, with claws for fingernails, a pickpocket bonus and the petite elf-people a reduction to fall damage. If one applies thinking to this, the cat-people should get the fall damage reduction and the elf-people should get the pickpocket bonus. I guess that's my bad for trying to apply logic and reason in this day and age.

You are a bad person for thinking bad thoughts. (<=this is sarcasm)

Twohothardware

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

I like the changes in all.
But (why must there always be a but?^^): tbh redguard is op. why do u not have the ability to see this? now you have a delta again. Adrenalin rush is like 380 stam reg. woodelf which was the stam reg master only gets 258!?
6% max stat now goes to +2000 for most classes. for orc its just 500??

He lost his 9% Stamregpassiva...thats about 162 all 2 seconds. Redguard got a nerf.

Redguard's Adrenaline is getting an extra 158 Stam every 5 seconds on top of 8% cost reduction, they got a buff. Cost Reduction will make more of a difference in PvE builds especially where you run very low Recovery builds.

Gnortranermara

Pretty good, overall.

Breton looks like it needs a bit more work to bring it up to par with High Elf.

Twohothardware

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Wildberryjack wrote: »

Destructive Ancestry: 7% Flame damage and 2% Frost/Shock Damage → Ruination: Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258.

No. Leave Dunmer their flame damage bonus. Keep Destructive Ancestry as it is and add a Stam buff with weapon damage. That way Stam builds get a buff without taking away the unique flame affinity from the race or ruining Mag builds.

You want dumner just to be race built for magicka dk, unfair advantage. Fire damage buff need to go.

Agreed. It was mandatory to run Dunmer if you wanted to play DK just because of the Fire damage and extra Stamina.

I'm fine with Dunmer getting a small buff if they went too far but no race should be the clear #1 at any class.

StarOfElyon

I think people need to wait and see what ZOS does after the tests.

Iarao

and those of us who are eso plus should get to change ALL of our toons and names if we wish. maybe make it a min time of eso plus, like 1yr. and if new plus members pay for 1yr, they

Iarao

gp1680 wrote: »

Seems like ZOS just rearranging deck chairs in order to sell race change tokens, tbh. It astounds me how these devs think it necessary to spend so much time on this racial crap while the performance of parts of their game stinks to high heaven and they do nothing.

totally agree. total cash grab here.

Iarao

gp1680 wrote: »

skeevynix wrote: »

gp1680 wrote: »

Seems like ZOS just rearranging deck chairs in order to sell race change tokens, tbh. It astounds me how these devs think it necessary to spend so much time on this racial crap while the performance of parts of their game stinks to high heaven and they do nothing.

No, I don't buy this. In MY opinion we have a dedicated team of devs who truly want to make the game work as intended.

It seems this is the first of the things being looked at in terms of bringing the game up to where they would wish it to be.

Absolutely there are issues in the game. ZOS have actually acknowledged issues & appear to be listening to the player base, which I am all for. Some people are unhappy with the changes, but I think we all know they are necessary to some degree.
Change is always hard & you will never please everybody.

To me, its a positive start to the year & I remain hopeful these "issues" are being worked on...

In my opinion, you’re just drinking the kool-aid. Changes like this were unnecessary and really serve the purpose to make people re-roll their toons. There is always going to be bis builds, regardless. Nerfing and buffing over the years has not gotten them any closer to their goal of “balance”. They should focus at least one patch on performance this year and then go back to the money grab...in MY opinion.

nerfing and buffing over the yrs made some races unplayable: imperial and nord used to be top tanks. i had to give up my bosmer nb because they nerfed it into the ground. argonian used to be a joke and now EVERYONE wants a lizard. why? cuz op. ditto for when warden dropped. dont tell me they couldnt theorycraft a bit closer to racial equality from the start. [snip]

[edited for bashing]

Twohothardware

Iarao wrote: »

gp1680 wrote: »

Seems like ZOS just rearranging deck chairs in order to sell race change tokens, tbh. It astounds me how these devs think it necessary to spend so much time on this racial crap while the performance of parts of their game stinks to high heaven and they do nothing.

totally agree. total cash grab here.

A number of us have had long threads going nearly every PTS cycle for over a year and a half asking ZOS for Race balancing because of how pigeon holed the Race meta had become.

Redguard and Argonian advantages weren't just a few hundred points difference in DPS. It was the difference in being able to completely sustain top DPS rotations without any heavy attacks on Redguard vs struggling on most other Stam races and on Argonian being able to sustain without any effort as a tank or in PvP being able to instantly recover from near death with huge bursts of resources and healing making any class instantly easier to compete on. Argonian became even worse when they introduced the Infused Jewelry with potion cooldown glyphs in Summerset.

Half of the player base didn't start switching this past year to what had been previously considered the ugliest race in the game just because.

Sibenice

Tonturri wrote: »

Obviously there should - and likely will - be some fine tuning. But c'mon. People whine 'n complain that ZOS nerfs/buffs with a sledgehammer. Now they get this - nerfing/buffing not with a sledge hammer - and...just, goodness.

I'm curious as to further elaboration on your 'too disruptive' comment. To what? How?

For me, as a pet sorc main, I think it's going to be a pretty significant nerf. Perhaps even sledgehammer like.

I'm currently sitting at 57,000/50,000 magicka on my altmer sorc. That 2000 we're getting is half to less than half of the magicka I'm getting from the 10% buff. Pet sorc is already behind non-pet. I may just have to give it up after this and go for the more basic sorc build.

OolongSnakeTea

I keep refreshing the top of the thread hoping that these changes for dunmer would be like 'APRIL FOOLS' or something, because say it isn't SOOOO!

Argonianwerecroc212

I feel like you nerfed Argonians too hard and khajiits got a weak buff

Argonianwerecroc212

I feel like you nerfed Argonians too much and gave khajiits a weak buff

waitwhat

Argonianwerecroc212 wrote: »

I feel like you nerfed Argonians too hard and khajiits got a weak buff

The benefit to khajiit comes more from the clarification of the role of the Redguard and the new (long-requested) magicka route. 8% spell crit is no joke. It's hard for mag builds to get high crit, and this compensation among khajiit will allow them to accommodate a lower mag pool and lower spell damage.

Hell, they may end up making excellent magcers.

Feralmyst

Buddy_the_Guy wrote: »

I'm okay with ZOS giving the cat-people a 5m reduced detection radius, since they are sneaky cats, but, completely removing it from the hunter elf-people just doesn't make any sense. I mean, "Hunters never use camouflage to sneak up on, or ambush, prey.", said nobody...ever. Bosmers should retain their 3m reduced detection radius, in place of the increase in stealth detection.

Along the same lines, I never really understood ZOS's decision to give the cat-people, with claws for fingernails, a pickpocket bonus and the petite elf-people a reduction to fall damage. If one applies thinking to this, the cat-people should get the fall damage reduction and the elf-people should get the pickpocket bonus. I guess that's my bad for trying to apply logic and reason in this day and age.

I have maxed out all slots with lvl 50s on my account and CP1080 playing as many race/stam/mag combos as my account allows, but my main is a wood elf so I'm piling on about the above. Bosmers need to retain the reduced detection radius. Increase in stealth detection . . . I have no words for this ridiculousness

Dracane

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Pretty good, overall.

Breton looks like it needs a bit more work to bring it up to par with High Elf.

It does not. Bretons are not on par with high elves lore wise and they must not be here either. They are have more than they should have. They are but Half Mer.

JobooAGS

Twohothardware wrote: »

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

I like the changes in all.
But (why must there always be a but?^^): tbh redguard is op. why do u not have the ability to see this? now you have a delta again. Adrenalin rush is like 380 stam reg. woodelf which was the stam reg master only gets 258!?
6% max stat now goes to +2000 for most classes. for orc its just 500??

He lost his 9% Stamregpassiva...thats about 162 all 2 seconds. Redguard got a nerf.

Redguard's Adrenaline is getting an extra 158 Stam every 5 seconds on top of 8% cost reduction, they got a buff. Cost Reduction will make more of a difference in PvE builds especially where you run very low Recovery builds.

Pve bosmer nb with 258 regen
258(1+.15 nb +.1 relentless +.28 med armor + .15 cp + .2 potion) = 485 regen which is 105 greater than adreniline rush.

Add in vampire and you get 511 regen from the 258 regen which is 131 regen more than adreniline rush. Best yet, as long as you are not blocking, this regen is free meanwhile to get the full value out of redguard you need to be constsntly attacking and a perfect rotation (if you wany the full benefit from the 8% weapon ability cost reduction).

Anti_Virus

starkerealm wrote: »

Only one I'm worried about is the Redguard. Given how hard that race is pushed as "The Choice for StamDPS," buffing Adrenaline Rush feels like a mistake.

Leave redguards alone.

Anti_Virus

jlb1705 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Only one I'm worried about is the Redguard. Given how hard that race is pushed as "The Choice for StamDPS," buffing Adrenaline Rush feels like a mistake.

Is it not balanced by this part though?:

Exhilaration: 9% Stamina Recovery → Martial Training: Reduces the cost of your Weapon abilities by 8%.

This line is definitely a nerf - not just the difference between 9% and 8%, but the difference between passive recovery and cost reduction to only weapon skills. It sounds like the cost reduction wouldn't apply to things like Surprise Attack, Killer's Blade, Relentless Focus, Razor Caltrops, Resolving Vigor, Rearming Trap, etc.

Not quite It’s major buff actually if you play a stam DK/Sorc with heavy armor they use weapon abilities. Remember in lore redguards are a warrior race not assassins.

Masel

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:



This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

waitwhat

JobooAGS wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

I like the changes in all.
But (why must there always be a but?^^): tbh redguard is op. why do u not have the ability to see this? now you have a delta again. Adrenalin rush is like 380 stam reg. woodelf which was the stam reg master only gets 258!?
6% max stat now goes to +2000 for most classes. for orc its just 500??

He lost his 9% Stamregpassiva...thats about 162 all 2 seconds. Redguard got a nerf.

Redguard's Adrenaline is getting an extra 158 Stam every 5 seconds on top of 8% cost reduction, they got a buff. Cost Reduction will make more of a difference in PvE builds especially where you run very low Recovery builds.

Pve bosmer nb with 258 regen
258(1+.15 nb +.1 relentless +.28 med armor + .15 cp + .2 potion) = 485 regen which is 105 greater than adreniline rush.

Add in vampire and you get 511 regen from the 258 regen which is 131 regen more than adreniline rush. Best yet, as long as you are not blocking, this regen is free meanwhile to get the full value out of redguard you need to be constsntly attacking and a perfect rotation (if you wany the full benefit from the 8% weapon ability cost reduction).

The changes will be pretty nuanced, and we'll need to see testing numbers, but the redguard changes will only be a net sustain gain for specific classes/rotations. For example, a stamsorc PvE dps will use more weapon skills than a stamblade PvE dps if they follow predominate rotations.

Otherwise, it looks like the goal was to keep Redguard sustain the same (if not increase it a bit) while toning down their raw damage potential (see the max stam reduction).

The bosmer still seemed to be shoehorned into the "most stamina sustain" role, which is more fitting for PvP. So their PVE utility remains an issue.

The stealth change makes some sense from a lore persepective, in that the Bosmer are being interpreted as the hunters, whereas the khajiit would be the hunted. One would imagine the Bosmer to be an effective "nightblade-killer" in that they should see the opposing players before being seen, and have an easier time escaping/creating distance when detected.

Xvorg

thesoundofwolf wrote: »

I keep refreshing the top of the thread hoping that these changes for dunmer would be like 'APRIL FOOLS' or something, because say it isn't SOOOO!

The extra wpn and spell dmg is much better than the 7% extra flame dmg even in DK:

1. Your heals are better
2. your magic dmg will be much better (that includes using elements outside flame)
3. Your stamina pool will be much higher too, which is useful for block casting
4. Your bashes will be stronger (through weapon dmg)
5. On a HA dunmer, the health pool will be higher at 0 cost (at least 1 k if you consider juggernaut)
6. Finally what I've bees saying since some days: It is quite likely that the extra flame dmg is moved FROM dunmer to DK to make it similar to the energized passive of sorc. That was the main reason why DK didn't have a direct boost in their flame dmg, since a 12% extra dmg on dunmer DK was overkill

The only guys loosing here are those who liked to fight against a doll and show their numbers (as if they should mean something)...

Now dunmer coldblade is much more viable than before.

Dracane

Masel wrote: »

Just a quick statement on the people focusing on % vs. flat value shere. In total, the stats the races have will be a slight buff to what they had before. 258 Spell Damage translates into more damage then the old damage done passive. I chose the word stat density specifically because i am not solely focused on resources (magicka and stamina), simply saying races get nerfed because our resource pools might be a bit lower is overlooking all other passives. Even the strongest races on damage dealers did not lose anything, and the weaker ones got stronger. Focusing on that one stat is ignoring the rest entirely. I made a table how much maximum resource you lose on a generic siroria+zaan+sorrow build right here:



This is basically just simulating the build values by taking out passives from the uesp build editor and adding the 2k magicka manually into the magicka formula.
This seems like the outcome will be negative, because builds will have slightly lower resources, right?

But when you consider the spell damage or sustain benefits that many stamina and magicka builds have, this gets turned around. Damage done (as we had previously on dunmer and altmer) sounds like a nice passive because it sounds like it buffs damage by that % value, but in CP content that translates to around half of what it actually says. You have between 40-50% damage done on most CP builds, so added 7% or 4% on elemental damage only will only be ~4.5 and ~2.5% respectively. The spell damage, cost reduction, recovery or whatever the new passives are are a lot more useful, because they do not shoehorn races nto a specific class. Say whatever you want about the balancing between races, but these changes are not a nerf to any of the races that qualify for the damage dealer position and bring them more on par. The only choice that lost a little bit of damage potentially is a dunmer magicka DK, since they can take full advantage of the 7% flame damage. The 258 SD they got for it boosts healing by a lot more than the damage you lose and gets amplified, so even IF there is a slight loss in damage for that specific combination, the added tooltips of all abilities make up for that.

There are still concerns that i see in them of course: Dunmer loses out to altmer in the magicka DD setting because of the lower recovery without an additional benefit that is relevant for a DD build. Health isnt doing a lot since you basically dont need it. So Dunmer could use a little bit of unique sustain for magicka builds (or the higher stat for that matter).

Then, Imperial and Argonian do not qualify for damage dealers really, since their passives are not really helpful. Imperial is basically forced to tank, since the block and bash cost reduction is too niceh to be noticable on anything else. Stamina DD are generally fine, we ahve to test the effectiveness of bosmer against redguard on PTS and see how they perform to evaluate that further. Khajiit is better than many people make it seem, but i agree that the recovery seems a bit low.

I think it is quite dangerous how much unreflected feedback we get from people who say they got nerfed hard. The only race that got nerfed overall is argonian, and there is a reason for that. the rest do benefit from the changes, so even if you keep the race you had before, you do NOT lose anything at all when you take all the passives into account.

To the point of DoTs being direct damage above by @John_Falstaff, generally DoTs are DoTs. They can have a direct damage portion whcih will proc it, but if there are DoTs that count as direct still, we need to change that quickly so it cannot be abused in this context. Also consider that damage enchants assume the damage type of the ability they proc off. So a damage enchant proccing of Endless hail will be DoT-Damage, and therefore not be able to proc adrenaline rush. Ideally you'd ahve to really be able to keep doing direct damage on the enemy to proc this.

This is not the case for every race. For Altmer it will be a nerf for their main spells. Most spells used are elemental and we already have 4% elemental damage. 258 spell damage (with all spell damage % applied) is only slightly more than 4% damage. So this could be slight buff, if it wasn't for the huge amount of magicka we will loose. In the end, only magic damage spells will be better (very few pure magic is used) but elemental damage will be worse.

I really think all races should have their ressources values buffed. 2000 is too much of a loss to justify.
Pve Sorcerer don't have a single magic damage spell. Everything is either shock or fire. Only elemental weapons is magical and that alone won't be able to uphold the nerf and not everyone uses that anyway.

And btw, this was not done with a calculator like you seemingly did. It was by actually comparing the tooltips.

Deathlord92

Dracane wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Pretty good, overall.

Breton looks like it needs a bit more work to bring it up to par with High Elf.

It does not. Bretons are not on par with high elves lore wise and they must not be here either. They are have more than they should have. They are but Half Mer.

What Breton are godly and can blow high elf’s to oblivion 🔥