Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21
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AerimesSoul ShrivenI like the basic idea of these changes, but I don't really get for example why you would give the Dark Elves 1250 Max Stam and Max Mag and the Orcs only get 500 Max Health and Max Stam. I kinda get that Dark Elves could be more of a Hybrid-Race, but the Khajiit too? I am no lore expert or meta-gameplay expert, but it seems to me that they should stick to the rogue-style and I think that they become a bit less 'useful' without a focus, i mean you have them a small bonus to everything. I also don't really get some of the 'ressource management passives', they seem a bit unbalanced to me. Keep in mind that this is only the opinion of a non-guide-making and non-theory-crafting player.1 -
doopt✭✭@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Gilliam
With changes as disruptive as these, the fact you’ve offered players a single race change token is either your greediest act yet (imagine putting vampirism cleanse tokens in the crown store), reflective of how out of touch you are with both your competitive raiding community and your RPers, or both.
You do realize players can have 15 characters, yes? Do the math — no, not that math — the math that still leaves you with an active player base until Ashes of Creation releases.
You still have time to make this right.9 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Wood Elves are no longer immune to the status effect of disease damage.
That's a huge nerf, especially for medium armour in pvp.
I don't understand ZOS kind of view here!
Argonians are traditionally resistant or immune to poisons, and even use poisons in their rituals that would kill other races. Bosmer are traditionally resistant or immune to diseases, and culturally use rotting meat in ways that makes other races deathly sick. It was only in Skyrim where these resistances were combined into one.
The information in the character creation screen reflects these traditional immunities. I think that when they separated the poison and disease resistance passive which Argonians and Wood Elves shared into two passives they goofed and flipped which one went where.
Actually Argonians are highly immune to poisons and disease. Remember they were immune to the knahaten flu. I'm pretty sure the only disease they can be inflicted with are lycanthropy and vampirism because those are magical diseases made by daedric princes.
They could also get Corprus in Morrowind (but everyone got that as they played thru, it was scripted pre-ordained).
But Argonians had perfect poison resistance in Morrowind and Oblivion while they only had a high resistance to disease. Argonians and Bosmer had the same resistance to both in Skyrim and currently here. It's still kind of an odd choice, but it's one of those toe-mah-toe or toe-may-toe coinflips in some ways, it's just inconsistent with the races as they had been previously established. I'm not especially fussed either way, just noting it as an oddity.Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.0 -
WhipSmartMcoy✭✭✭I only play two characters in this game. Mag Sorc (pvp/pve) and Stamblade (pvp)
The change to racials, in my opinion, makes the choice between Breton and High elf an actual choice. Both gain max magic, but Breton is now clearly a better sustain choice. I think 258 extra spell damage is a bit much though. Thats a whole mundus stone. My Sorc is and always will be Breton, so these changes I look forward to.
As for my NB though, yeesh. It will always be a Khajiit, and the racial changes for Khajiit are totally lame. Why does wood elf get a mundus stone value for Stam recov, and Khajiit gets an invigorating level bonus? It gets health and mag recov sure, but added together is less than (by 8 points) what wood elves are gaining in recov. The movement speed passive Wood elves are getting feels like it should be on Khajiit, but I'm in all honesty biased lol
An extra 750 magic doesn't really justify the extra spell crit when high elves get Max magic, spell damage, and a recov passive.
I hope Khajiit will play better than it looks on paper, cause I honestly love the changes to other races too.Edited by WhipSmartMcoy on January 18, 2019 5:50PM2 -
MoraeannahSoul ShrivenDisease resistance is no reason to give Argonians half the health passive of every other race. It's so rare to actually take disease damage that it's a pretty irrelevant passive.0
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Hymzir✭✭✭✭✭
✭37 pages so far... Have not read through it all, but have been keeping an eye on this and skimming the posts on it.
Was not gonna comment more since I said most of what I had to say 20 pages ago - but one theme has been popping up enough time's that I wanted to voice my thoughts on it.
And that is the case of the Dunmer.
A lot of people are unhappy about the changes, mainly because the loss of the flame damage bonus and the impact of that change to builds that were leveraging it.
Altmer is now the obvious top choice for magicka DPS, and the dunmer alternative using lots of fire damage no longer works as well.
I get that people are annoyed about this, but the point of these changes is to reign in stat values. Thus a move away from % based bonuses.
The thing to note about dunmer is, that they've always been a hybrid race. They have always had both magicka and stamina buffs. If you wanna retain racial aptitude buffs, then keep in mind, that altmer are supposed to be better at magic and the new bonuses do reflect that. Not that dunmer will be all that far behind, and stamina has always it's uses. Even on a magicka build.
But there are people, me included, who play a dunmer character with a stamina build. And I for one am really happy about these changes. At least as far as dunmer goes.
I don't really care whether dunmer retain their flame damage bonus in some form or not, but I do not support the notion of turning dunmer into another magicka race. I like the fact that they have both stamina and magicka bonuses and they support stamsorc play really well. And the new bonuses will make things even better.
So no to any idea of stripping dunmer stamina buffs and converting them into magicka buffs.
Also, it is painfully obvious, that most of the tweaks presented here, are aimed at improving the posters personal build and not formulated with the bigger picture in mind. I suppose I'm as guilty of that as the next bloke. I mean, I really like what I see for the dunmer. It is gonna be a straight up buff for my personal playstyle - a style that was already quite well supported by the current set of bonuses. However, taken as a whole, these new buffs are decent and only really need some minor tweaks.
Khajit resources could use a few hundred points more each, or maybe 25% increase in the recovery stats. Bosmer stealth detection is still too weak and situational, buff it a bit more. And Imperials are getting shafted. According to the number crunchers, these changes are gonna make Imperials the bottom race for any playstyle and class. So... buff them a bit more, okay?Edited by Hymzir on January 18, 2019 7:20PM3 -
susmitds✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »John_Falstaff wrote: »@Colecovision , regarding khajiits and stamina, the information was appearing earlier in this thread. Thing is, up until certain regen value, flat value of 75 (the new passive) is better after percentage buffs than 10% (the old passive). So, counting in CP, medium armor passives and Major Endurance, the equilibrium point lies somewhere around 1270 unbuffed stamina regen - if your base regen (514) plus all flat value buffs - Dubious, glyphs, set bonuses - are below this value, then you have more regen after the update than you had before; if your flat base regen is above - then you've gotten a nerf.
Just as an example, assuming you run 15% from CP, 20% from Endurance and 28% from medium armor. Suppose you had recovery of 514 (base) + 169 (glyph) + (129 + 150) (bone pirate) + 319 (dubious) = 1281. Now...- Currently on live: (1281) * (1 + 0.15 + 0.2 + 0.28 + 0.1 (current khajiit passive)) = 2216 regen.
- After the update: (1281 + 75 (new khajiit passive)) * (1 + 0.15 + 0.2 + 0.28) = 2210 regen.
So yes, you'll have lost 6 regen after the update.
6 Stam?
How is he supposed to complete vMA and solo group dungeons with 6 less regen.
Every other stamina race (bosmer, orc, redguard, even altmer) gained at least 100 stam regen. Khajiit did not. That's a relative nerf.3 -
nsmurfer✭✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »John_Falstaff wrote: »@Colecovision , regarding khajiits and stamina, the information was appearing earlier in this thread. Thing is, up until certain regen value, flat value of 75 (the new passive) is better after percentage buffs than 10% (the old passive). So, counting in CP, medium armor passives and Major Endurance, the equilibrium point lies somewhere around 1270 unbuffed stamina regen - if your base regen (514) plus all flat value buffs - Dubious, glyphs, set bonuses - are below this value, then you have more regen after the update than you had before; if your flat base regen is above - then you've gotten a nerf.
Just as an example, assuming you run 15% from CP, 20% from Endurance and 28% from medium armor. Suppose you had recovery of 514 (base) + 169 (glyph) + (129 + 150) (bone pirate) + 319 (dubious) = 1281. Now...- Currently on live: (1281) * (1 + 0.15 + 0.2 + 0.28 + 0.1 (current khajiit passive)) = 2216 regen.
- After the update: (1281 + 75 (new khajiit passive)) * (1 + 0.15 + 0.2 + 0.28) = 2210 regen.
So yes, you'll have lost 6 regen after the update.
6 Stam?
How is he supposed to complete vMA and solo group dungeons with 6 less regen.
Every other stamina race (bosmer, orc, redguard, even altmer) gained at least 100 stam regen. Khajiit did not. That's a relative nerf.
this is exactly the reason. Every stamina race got a boost in terms of sustain, given how sustain was the primary factor keeping every non-redguard race unviable for endgame PvE. Except for khajiit, leaving a good number of stamina pvEs in the dust.1 -
Koronach✭✭✭✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Wood Elves are no longer immune to the status effect of disease damage.
That's a huge nerf, especially for medium armour in pvp.
I don't understand ZOS kind of view here!
Argonians are traditionally resistant or immune to poisons, and even use poisons in their rituals that would kill other races. Bosmer are traditionally resistant or immune to diseases, and culturally use rotting meat in ways that makes other races deathly sick. It was only in Skyrim where these resistances were combined into one.
The information in the character creation screen reflects these traditional immunities. I think that when they separated the poison and disease resistance passive which Argonians and Wood Elves shared into two passives they goofed and flipped which one went where.
Actually Argonians are highly immune to poisons and disease. Remember they were immune to the knahaten flu. I'm pretty sure the only disease they can be inflicted with are lycanthropy and vampirism because those are magical diseases made by daedric princes.
They could also get Corprus in Morrowind (but everyone got that as they played thru, it was scripted pre-ordained).
But Argonians had perfect poison resistance in Morrowind and Oblivion while they only had a high resistance to disease. Argonians and Bosmer had the same resistance to both in Skyrim and currently here. It's still kind of an odd choice, but it's one of those toe-mah-toe or toe-may-toe coinflips in some ways, it's just inconsistent with the races as they had been previously established. I'm not especially fussed either way, just noting it as an oddity.
Haven't played TES III in a while but I'm sure Corprus was created by Dagoth Ur one of the mortals turned god like Vivec, Sotha, Almalexia. They are from what I understand on par or almost as powerful as the daedric princes. So I would assume that would be up there with a magic type disease as well.0 -
Iarao✭✭✭✭oh, and what about those who dont have any race any faction???? what if they are now stuck with a crappy toon they dont wanna play???? hmmm??? MONEY GRAB!1
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Iarao✭✭✭✭and those of us who are eso plus should get to change ALL of our toons and names if we wish. maybe make it a min time of eso plus, like 1yr. and if new plus members pay for 1yr, they get it thrown in, too.0
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Jabbs_Giggity✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »Only one I'm worried about is the Redguard. Given how hard that race is pushed as "The Choice for StamDPS," buffing Adrenaline Rush feels like a mistake.
It's a nerf to StamPlars considering the "Direct Damage" does not apply...and you get no cost reduction to class abilities...Even though Jabs is still broken.
But hey! Let's promote using Weapon Skill lines over Class Skill Lines even more since the Class Skills cannot get balanced correctly...0 -
Iron_Blurr✭✭✭✭The imperial passives are under powered.
The nord passives are over powered.
Other than that I like the changes.3 -
SydneyGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭That detection "bonus" for Wood Elf is worthless. Please replace that with something that's useful.7 -
Virosh✭✭Coming back to the game after a year and a half (or was it more?) and I see some strange things going on.
Honestly, dissatisfied with most of those changes. Altmers and Khajiit look very interesting now though, so credit where credit is due.
Dunmer - are you trying to bring back the hybrid builds? If you do - guess that's fine, though with the way the meta, sets, dungeons and player mindsets are now, I highly doubt that is possible.
Finally, Imperials sucked a bit, will suck a lot more now if the proposed passives go live for them. And the Red Diamond passive - please, either make it similar to the Redguards's one ( X amount of health every X amount of seconds ), or just change it to +2000 max magicka - that would benefit tanks, have no impact on StamDD's and motivate people to try out magicka imperial DD. Maybe even healer, though Bretons and Altmer would still be better. Or just rework their passives altogether. For being the premium race in ESO they suck in every possible way. I have about zero desire ever making an imperial toon. Seriously - can anyone explain to me what are the Imperials even good for?3 -
gp1680✭✭✭✭✭Seems like ZOS just rearranging deck chairs in order to sell race change tokens, tbh. It astounds me how these devs think it necessary to spend so much time on this racial crap while the performance of parts of their game stinks to high heaven and they do nothing.1
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John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Only one I'm worried about is the Redguard. Given how hard that race is pushed as "The Choice for StamDPS," buffing Adrenaline Rush feels like a mistake.
It's a nerf to StamPlars considering the "Direct Damage" does not apply...and you get no cost reduction to class abilities...Even though Jabs is still broken.
But hey! Let's promote using Weapon Skill lines over Class Skill Lines even more since the Class Skills cannot get balanced correctly...
Caltrops, if memory serves, count as direct damage. Every stamina uses Caltrops, and they're always on the ground, so Adrenaline Rush got a buff actually - it'll be ticking like Swiss clock as long as Caltrops are down.Edited by John_Falstaff on January 18, 2019 8:52PM2 -
Virosh✭✭Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »Please rethink imperial before release, thank you!
This guy gets it!!! xD5 -
skeevynix✭✭✭Seems like ZOS just rearranging deck chairs in order to sell race change tokens, tbh. It astounds me how these devs think it necessary to spend so much time on this racial crap while the performance of parts of their game stinks to high heaven and they do nothing.
No, I don't buy this. In MY opinion we have a dedicated team of devs who truly want to make the game work as intended.
It seems this is the first of the things being looked at in terms of bringing the game up to where they would wish it to be.
Absolutely there are issues in the game. ZOS have actually acknowledged issues & appear to be listening to the player base, which I am all for. Some people are unhappy with the changes, but I think we all know they are necessary to some degree.
Change is always hard & you will never please everybody.
To me, its a positive start to the year & I remain hopeful these "issues" are being worked on...Edited by skeevynix on January 18, 2019 8:59PMpc/NA @SkeevyNix (NZ)2 -
Schattenfluegel✭✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »
Caltrops, if memory serves, count as direct damage. Every stamina uses Caltrops, and they're always on the ground, so Adrenaline Rush got a buff actually - it'll be ticking like Swiss clock as long as Caltrops are down.
Are you sure about that?Edited by Schattenfluegel on January 18, 2019 9:03PMLove my Stamsorc0 -
Nolic1✭✭✭So Dunmer is not being made a race that can really build hybrid but the race its self can be ether magicka or stamina dps and with these changes it make them good at ether.Sherman from Sherman's Gaming
Youtube content creator that is dedicated to the Casual and Roleplay community for News, Lets Talks, Guides, Help and character builds.
Youtube channel link: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrgYNgpFTRAl4XWz31o2emw1 -
Tholian1✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »Please rethink imperial before release, thank you!
It’s like they regret making Imperials a playable race. “Here’s some health, go tank.”PS4 Pro NA3 -
gp1680✭✭✭✭✭Seems like ZOS just rearranging deck chairs in order to sell race change tokens, tbh. It astounds me how these devs think it necessary to spend so much time on this racial crap while the performance of parts of their game stinks to high heaven and they do nothing.
No, I don't buy this. In MY opinion we have a dedicated team of devs who truly want to make the game work as intended.
It seems this is the first of the things being looked at in terms of bringing the game up to where they would wish it to be.
Absolutely there are issues in the game. ZOS have actually acknowledged issues & appear to be listening to the player base, which I am all for. Some people are unhappy with the changes, but I think we all know they are necessary to some degree.
Change is always hard & you will never please everybody.
To me, its a positive start to the year & I remain hopeful these "issues" are being worked on...
In my opinion, you’re just drinking the kool-aid. Changes like this were unnecessary and really serve the purpose to make people re-roll their toons. There is always going to be bis builds, regardless. Nerfing and buffing over the years has not gotten them any closer to their goal of “balance”. They should focus at least one patch on performance this year and then go back to the money grab...in MY opinion.3 -
Cinbri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭1. Imperials - even tho their Red Diamond seems wont have ICD and will work per target not per damage skill activated, it still look as lucklaster. I suggest to change their bash reduce cost to Break Free reduce cost, in this case it will be versatile effect for both mana/stamina builds, unlike Bash that benefit only stamina builds; and 5% cc break is stronger effect than bash.
Or same as altmers where strong effect have special condition - make instead of 5% reduce bash cost to grant 5% reduce damage in block(like comparison of Footman); will work for both mana/stamina and have condition of proc only in block.
2. Dunmers - it is complicated.
A. Ashlander passive - it suppose to reduce damage from environmental lava but in pvp zones like cyro near Chorrol or battlegrounds zone like Mor Khazgur it doesn't count as environmental lava damage and not being reduce damage; its a bit weird that anti-lava passive not work vs lava everytime. How about change it from lava protection to just lower percentage of environmental damage reduction. Lore-wise being ashlander doesn't mean only lava protection, it is resistance to harsh environment which is not only lava.
B. Ruination passive - is great change. People keep talking that magdk got nerfed but beside dk there is/will 5 classes for which this passive not work. It is very positive that dunmers no longer pigeonholed to be only manadks and my dunmer-templar will literally have one more passive that open lot of diversity possibilities for building.
C. Dunmers as hybrid race - its interesting conception. But problem is that hybrids is most underdeveloped thing in game and that only place where it can potentionally shine better than others is pvp (don't mind it
). The way how hybrids can compete with more efficient max resource stacking builds/races - is sheer amount of splitted stats as some of such splitted stats have no benefit for builds a mana/stamina build:
Such situation was showed by set Armor of Trainee - when it was granting 2k of all resources - it was bis set, but when it droped to 1250 - no one use it anymore as amount of splitted stats not validate loosing of damage potential. And dunmers with overall stats now have 1250m/1250s/600hp = when it goes to compare bonus as Sets stats - it not even compete with Trainee set. Or other hybridish set - Shacklebreaker set. It's loss of hp boost is repaid as boosted max mana and stamina and it made it very favourable set coz it focused only on 2 splitted stas, that allow to compete with max stat sets by its diversity.
So, the possibilities to make dunmers more viable I can suggest several ways:
1. Boost splitted stats to at least Set stat comparison of weakest hybrid set - Trainee, I.e. hp from 600 to 1250. However note that 1250 of full hybrid stat is very weak.
2. Or same as Shacklebreaker - remove 600hp and flame resistance boost from Flame Resist while boost Dynamic passive of max mana/stam further. It wont contradict to description zos made in dev comment as dunmers are literally "harsh elves" not "humans", they "Intelligent and quick" but not "hardy" so their difference from other "sturdy" races like imperials or nords is that they evolved their elven agaility and intellect. Have small boost to only mana build is also lore-wise as dunmers ancestors are altmers.
2. given that Destructive Ancestry lost highest damage boost and now comparable to altmers Elemental Talent - it could get either small boost to its stat, smth like 3% spell and weapon crit - it one of those hybrid stats that benefit only 1 type of buils, same as current Ruination. Or keep as it is so disparity in two races' passive (old and new Ruination vs Elem. Talent) can be repaid by boosted splitted stats of dunmers to keep overall bonuses of races in near effectiveness.
Edited by Cinbri on January 18, 2019 9:52PM7 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Schattenfluegel wrote: »John_Falstaff wrote: »
Caltrops, if memory serves, count as direct damage. Every stamina uses Caltrops, and they're always on the ground, so Adrenaline Rush got a buff actually - it'll be ticking like Swiss clock as long as Caltrops are down.
Are you sure about that?
Nope - didn't verify myself, it's just mentioned as such in a bunch of older posts around the forums. So at the very least it used to, but I'll test when I'll get around to.0 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »
As a closing note, we want to reiterate that all players will have a refund of all of their character’s racial passives if they’ve spent any, so remember to reallocate any points into these on your characters once the changes go live.
Is this going to be like the Devour skill point refund, where you have to withdraw 100,000 gold from the bank just to get the dialogue, and then spend 20 minutes redoing all your points? I still haven't got that one back, by the way.
Not looking forward to it.
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killmove✭✭✭I propose this kind of balance:
Argonian
Increases experience gain in Resto Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 50% Swimming Speed → No changes
Resourceful: Gain 3% Max Magicka and restore 4620 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion → Increases your Max Magicka and Stamina by 1000. Restore 4200 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion.
Argonian Resistance: 9% Max Health and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance → Increases your Max Health by 1500 and your Disease Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Diseased status effect.
Quick to Mend: 5% Healing Done and Received → Life Mender: Increases your Healing Done by 7%.
Dark Elf
Increases Experience gain in Dual Wield Skill Line by 15%, reduces damage taken from Lava by 50% → No changes
Dynamic: 6% Max Stamina and Magicka → Increases your Max Stamina and Magicka by 1500.
Resist Flame: 3% Max Magicka and 2079 Flame Resistance → Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Flame Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Burning status effect.
Destructive Ancestry: 7% Flame damage and 2% Frost/Shock Damage → Ruination: Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 300.
Imperial
Increases Experience gain in One Hand and Shield Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain → No changes
Tough: 12% Max Health → Increases your Max Health by 2000.
Conditioning: 10% Max Stamina → Imperial Mettle: Increases your Max Stamina by 2000.
Red Diamond: 10% Chance on Melee Attack to heal for 6% of Max Health → When you deal Direct Damage you have a 15% chance to restore 450 Stamina and Magicka. Reduces the cost of your Block and Bash abilities by 5%.
Redguard
Increases One Hand and Shield Skill Line by 15%, 15 extra minutes on food buffs → No changes
Exhilaration: 9% Stamina Recovery → Martial Training: Reduces the cost of your Weapon abilities by 5%.
Conditioning: 10% Max Stamina → Increases your Max Stamina by 2000.
Adrenaline Rush: When you deal damage with a melee attack you restore 792 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds. → When you deal Direct Damage, you restore 750 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds.Edited by killmove on January 18, 2019 10:17PM3 -
Lord_Eomer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I feel these changes are mostly positive. I am looking forward to playing as a Nord again, and I like the increased versatility added to the races.
There are few issues however, Nords should not have more magicka resistance than a Breton, that seems like a lore contradiction. Khajiit should retain thier increased damage from stealth, and Dunmer should be able to produce the most damage with fire magicka.
There is no diversity if dunmer keep their dire damage buff,
It becomes race for Magcika DK only
Fire damage buff need to go.2
