Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21

Dracane

All this talk about Dunmer being gutted and Altmer being the shining winner. O.o
If one race was nerfed the most, then it has to be Altmer. (Right up there with Argonians) Gift of Magnus is just worse in every way, the regen passive is also a nerf for many instances. There are situations where I personally never use class abilities, because they are not needed. The only class ability is liquid lightning and that is used every 10s not every 6s. Everything else is weapon abilities.

And Elemental Expert is no difference at all. 258 spell damage was just 45 more damage for force pulse compared to 4% elemental damage.

Dunmer is overloaded with passives in comparison. You get health, stamina, Magicka and spell damage on top. Compared to live, you have lost fairly little and you have at least been compensated with many other stats that EVERY build benefits from (no matter how little you claim to care for it). Altmer got nothing in return. It's just worse than before without compensation. All races have gained something interesting, Altmer is just worse in every aspect.

John_Falstaff

Still think that khajiits could get more sustain - pull from the (arguably useless) health regen and redistribute to the magicka and stamina. With buffs to redguards and dunmers, they're both going to overshoot khajiits in stamina DPS builds by a wide margin.

That said, it's nice khajiits are actually viable for magicka now, and - if nothing changes - I frankly ponder converting my unloved dunmer magblade (made under meta pressure) into a proper feline. ^^

Tholian1

Sleep724 wrote: »

Imperial race is the pay-to-lose class now.

We have to be tanks and merchants and nothing else it seems.

lokulin

Gutted but not surprised that my sorc (argonian tank) has been screwed once again. Will have to find some extra health from somewhere else and will continue to struggle with even worse pool regen without a uninterruptible way of gaining back stamina while blocking that isn't potion use. Would have been fine with these changes if dark-deal was changed to instant cast. The only reason I play as a tank is the lack of tanks in the game still. The on going refusal to level the playing field for tanks keeping DKs far ahead of the pack is mystifying. Will continue to hold out on renewing my subscription or buying crowns untill either sorc sustain is improved, achievements are account wide or a class change token is implemented. In the mean time I might as well use the race change token to switch to red guard or something that will at least mean I can play my sorc as a DPS.

mr_wazzabi

Dracane wrote: »

All this talk about Dunmer being gutted and Altmer being the shining winner. O.o
If one race was nerfed the most, then it has to be Altmer. (Right up there with Argonians) Gift of Magnus is just worse in every way, the regen passive is also a nerf for many instances. There are situations where I personally never use class abilities, because they are not needed. The only class ability is liquid lightning and that is used every 10s not every 6s. Everything else is weapon abilities.

And Elemental Expert is no difference at all. 258 spell damage was just 45 more damage for force pulse compared to 4% elemental damage.

Dunmer is overloaded with passives in comparison. You get health, stamina, Magicka and spell damage on top. Compared to live, you have lost fairly little and you have at least been compensated with many other stats that EVERY build benefits from (no matter how little you claim to care for it). Altmer got nothing in return. It's just worse than before without compensation. All races have gained something interesting, Altmer is just worse in every aspect.

Altmer magplar and magblades got a huge buff though. Class skills form most of their dps and most if not all of them are magic damage.

Dracane

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

All this talk about Dunmer being gutted and Altmer being the shining winner. O.o
If one race was nerfed the most, then it has to be Altmer. (Right up there with Argonians) Gift of Magnus is just worse in every way, the regen passive is also a nerf for many instances. There are situations where I personally never use class abilities, because they are not needed. The only class ability is liquid lightning and that is used every 10s not every 6s. Everything else is weapon abilities.

And Elemental Expert is no difference at all. 258 spell damage was just 45 more damage for force pulse compared to 4% elemental damage.

Dunmer is overloaded with passives in comparison. You get health, stamina, Magicka and spell damage on top. Compared to live, you have lost fairly little and you have at least been compensated with many other stats that EVERY build benefits from (no matter how little you claim to care for it). Altmer got nothing in return. It's just worse than before without compensation. All races have gained something interesting, Altmer is just worse in every aspect.

Altmer magplar and magblades got a huge buff though. Class skills form most of their dps and most if not all of them are magic damage.

And Magicka Sorcerer once again, damaged even further. The nerf river just will never stop flowing. Every update makes this class trashier and more forgettable.

burglar

I love these changes conceptually, and I think this is the right direction for the game to be heading.

All of these passives are buffs to each race in more ways than one; the flat values instead of percentages can be affected by modifiers; they are relevant to the lore of your race; and they give each race a stronger identity - which has been sorely needed.

I think that by reducing, removing or restructuring the current racial modifiers creates more potential to balance the game through counter play. As it is, one set can break certian aspects of the game, which I think people are referring to as power creep(?). On top of that, sets are likely to be more distinct in their usefulness to each race as their impact can vary widely between races. That alone will make our character's, and items they use more valuable, making overall game play more rewarding.

It's possible that I'm simply being hopeful, but these changes show that the team has dedicated time and thought into making each racial passive substantive, and meaningful enough to generate a real sense of value that differentiates each race from another. This kind of consideration isn't easily forced or feigned without careful execution. Their goal is to generate value for the player, here.

Personally, I feel relieved... I thought the game was doomed, but these changes, in combination with the recent, less desirable ones, convinces me that we're "tearing the band-aid off" to get more engaging gameplay. Change is never comforting, but I think all of this is promising more engaging game play. ESOpocalypse averted.

oXI_Viper_IXo

dogman wrote: »

dogman wrote: »

gilliam is worse at balancing stuff than wrobel thats an accomplishment

LMAO

Did you really just quote and laugh at your own comment?

Cundu_Ertur

oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »

dogman wrote: »

dogman wrote: »

gilliam is worse at balancing stuff than wrobel thats an accomplishment

LMAO

Did you really just quote and laugh at your own comment?

Someone had to.

roksolana_sowa

In pve all mag dds will be helfs, all stam dds redguards or orcs, all tanks will be nords and most healers will be bretons, so I have question - what actually u wanted to do? Chage one master rase to enother?
U did nothing for bosmers, at least thanks that u buffed orcs, u just made khjiits weaker than even dunmers in stamina setup.
Ppl who wanna make RP will still play favorite rase but if I want to maximase my dps I still would need to play rase what u chose for couse difference now even more huge.
For pve numbers of stats and regen will be pretty same like now all differens will be in pvp setups, well... maybe it can help to do something in that part of game.
Actually those changes did nothing for me only nerfed more my khajiit chars comparing to redguards, great job before Elsweyr.

Iskiab

Agree with what other’s have written. If anything this will widen the gap between Redguards and other races making them mandatory for any stamina build.

Lord_Ninka

There might be room for balancing and fine tuning, but over all this sounds wonderful!

Snipress

Please give us a name change token along with the race change token.

bpmachete

Shezzarrine wrote: »

I was really hoping they would either give Imperial something for magicka or give it some sort of stam recovery passive. The passives seem pretty lackluster, for pve that is. I have both a mag and stam dps that are Imperial and was hoping I could change my main dps ok Imperial without it being too much of a loss in sustain/damage but it seems I will have to stick with redguard. Most of the passives can be good for multiple roles but Imperial seems only good for tanking and maybe a little in pvp. Any chance Imperial gets looked at again?

Yeah, before for PvP DPS at least they hit harder because of max stam compared to other races, but now with the extra mundus weapon damage to other races and the stamina difference being minimal (heck even the wood elf caught up) there is like you said, it seems that only a tanking role they could be better at than other races.

Wood elf gets same stam and stam recovery extra... other races just a bit less stam but more than a mundus of weapon damage that now helps their heals and before it was just damage done... I do hope they bring Imperial into balance.

GERMANO-THE-IMPERIAL

Eso is Dead !

Moonsorrow

Personally i think that would have been enough to slightly adjust couple things that made some clearly above every other race or be the "no one picks this race" extremes. Or have morphs for passives for both magicka and stamina and adjust values accordingly. That would have been the real freedom.

So of course people are emotional about these changes. It is sad, because just few days ago all were hyped about the coming year with all the new cool and fun stuff, and now its sadness and fighting on lost things and feeling forced to switch races to play atleast close to what used to like.

All are ready (or most) to take hits on class abilities since those are often changed during a yea, back and forth if needs, but race is part of your identity on the characters, and most likely not get changed again in the next couple of years.. many been playing for years possibly and so the hits on them feel big and not justified, especially when the changes like this do not deliver the freedom that was the goal.

All who know me, know i dont easily get sad about things, but love the game and most often some even say i am some ZOS whiteknight defender, but this time i feel the race changes could have done much better, so people would feel the same hype still than after the big year announcement, now many just feel they are losing on fun and not getting back something in return that would make them be happily playing. The uproar about it tells it all. It does not happen without reason. It is not just selfish crying.

Some say this is adjusting power creep. It would have been done easier by making the champion points system reworked completely. Not with almost random adjustments to races that in the end changed nothing to what was the goal, feel like it was work done for nothing and without a clear vision on what wanted to achieve with it, again.

Would give more detailed thoughts about it, but long enough wall of text already and i feel like there are only a handful of people at forums with emphatic logics and understanding that simple solutions that affect everyone are better than having people feel sad about things individually and fighting against other fellow players for crumbs and laughing when someone else gets nerfed as long as it is not them.

Hope everyone has a good weekend though.

bpmachete

Aliyavana wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Only one I'm worried about is the Redguard. Given how hard that race is pushed as "The Choice for StamDPS," buffing Adrenaline Rush feels like a mistake.

Edaphon wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Wood Elf

[*]Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.

Can we please get something useful instead?
Reduced cost for roll dodge for example. Even just +10 health would be better than this.

no, 20 percent speed buff is amazing

The rolldodge builds will be ridiculous now, will run circles around people and will be super unbalanced like with the swift initial speed bonuses.

Gnozo

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

High Elf

• Increases Experience gain in Destruction Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Generic Experience gain → No changes
• Spellcharge: 9% Magicka Recovery → Spell Recharge: Restore 575 Magicka or Stamina, based on whichever is higher, after activating a Class Ability. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time.
• Gift of Magnus: 10% Max Magicka → Syrabane’s Boon: Increases your Max Magicka by 2000.
• Elemental Talent: 4% Fire/Shock/Ice damage → Increases your Spell Damage by 258.

Developer Comment

High Elf culture is heavily ingrained with the belief of destiny and birthright, so we wanted a passive that highlighted their ability to harness their innate powers, or class. Granting them a unique resource when accessing a class ability really gets that feeling off and makes it much more engaging than the previous flat recovery bonus.

On top of that, High Elves are well known for being powerful spell casters, and we wanted to make this race feel more powerful when they were charging up a powerful ability.

I am so confused about Spell Charge.

High Elfs are clearly the race wich is more magicka related then any others Race But Can Potential restore stamina when the ressource pool is higher? The passive is called Spell charge. SPELL!

All other passives are magicka based, max magicka, spell damage but then this stamina or magicka wichever is higher?

Feels so random cause maybe 1% of all highelf classes will be stamina.... so confused.

Schattenfluegel

Gnozo wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

High Elf

• Increases Experience gain in Destruction Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Generic Experience gain → No changes
• Spellcharge: 9% Magicka Recovery → Spell Recharge: Restore 575 Magicka or Stamina, based on whichever is higher, after activating a Class Ability. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time.
• Gift of Magnus: 10% Max Magicka → Syrabane’s Boon: Increases your Max Magicka by 2000.
• Elemental Talent: 4% Fire/Shock/Ice damage → Increases your Spell Damage by 258.

Developer Comment

High Elf culture is heavily ingrained with the belief of destiny and birthright, so we wanted a passive that highlighted their ability to harness their innate powers, or class. Granting them a unique resource when accessing a class ability really gets that feeling off and makes it much more engaging than the previous flat recovery bonus.

On top of that, High Elves are well known for being powerful spell casters, and we wanted to make this race feel more powerful when they were charging up a powerful ability.

I am so confused about Spell Charge.

High Elfs are clearly the race wich is more magicka related then any others Race But Can Potential restore stamina when the ressource pool is higher? The passive is called Spell charge. SPELL!

All other passives are magicka based, max magicka, spell damage but then this stamina or magicka wichever is higher?

Feels so random cause maybe 1% of all highelf classes will be stamina.... so confused.

My Magsorctank would be happy - its an Highelf actually.

skeevynix

Having let these changes as they stand now sink in a little, I am in favour of them,


I'll see how it runs through the PTS before I make decisions on race changes for any of my toons
(most likely my dunmer magden will go the way of the token)


I am really liking the direction ZOS are taking this year.

Well Done guys

Raudgrani

technohic wrote: »

So as I am chewing on this a while, I guess it feels like all races were adjusted somewhat close for the most part with just Red guard and Altmer as they seem to be more dedicated one way or another. Whatever there, as I will let the math people go over this crap.

What bothers me is; I wanted a nord, so I took my templar a nord. I gave up meta and in stead built to use its health recovery, health, and stam. The damage reduction percent really was not great but helped with bleeds which do not care about armor. I feel like a sledgehammer was taken to it, decreasing the health and stam and vaporizing the health recovery. Probably most people could care less about that but for me, it made the character different. Ultimate generation can be nice but 10 seconds is an incredibly long time in combat to just get 5 ultimate. Even if it would be decent, it seems the race is now better suited for a different character I have (*cough* Dunmer DK) and less for what I was doing already that might actually synergise better with Khajiit at a bit weaker version, which is all well and good, but that already is more than 1 race change. I have a few characters that will be stuck.

I guess I feel like we could adjust to clearly less exaggerated strength of races, but it feels like the deck has been shuffled and we are stuck with either a race that no longer matches what we are trying to do; or we have to purchase tokens if we have more than 1 character.

I can't see this "It's Minor Heroism all the time dude! Amazing!", no? It's like this, you get 5 Ultimate, for taking damage, and that's every TEN seconds. That's maximum 30 ultimate/minute, given that you TAKE damage at least every ten seconds. ten seconds is a long time in combat, at least in PVP.
And I don't know how they mean Nords should take that damage now, health recovery is no more, max helth messed up, max stamina messed up, the old damage reduction made worse - no recoveries at all, on any stat. How are you supposed to intentionally take damage as to build up that ultimate? And what ultimate are you supposed to use? Warhorn? Remembrance? If you build your character to walk around and soak up damage all the time, your Dawnbreakers or whatever really won't do any silly damage; especially not now since you get lower max stamina and everything.

It's just stupid, I can't see how people get so excited about this new passive. Can't people read?

Raudgrani

IronWooshu wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Why don't the conversions from percentage resource to static amount scale the same. 10% is 2000, yet 9% is 1000? etc. Overall nerfs to max health and health regen builds. Will be interesting to see how these align with Necromancer. Will be interesting to see if Percentage stat/regen increase class and armor passives stay the same.

High Elf - huge buff. Just wow for Templar with Cyrodill's light, channeling Mist form. Probably best healer, dps magicka race.
Argonian - nerf
WoodElf - probably a buff, only good for stam.
Breton - huge buff. New magicka DK race.
DE - max staf nerf, still best hybrid race
Imperial - meh, max health nerf.
Khajit - big buff. viable as magicka now.
Nord - not sure, nerf to rugged, but Ult regen might be best passive. Nord Wardens will spam ults.
Orc - huge buff.
Redguard - huge buff

A dazzling ulti generation up to 30 ulti per minute, that's game changing! Or... was it?

combine that with Wardens ulti generation and that is a lot

You can say that about exactly everything. What if you're not a Warden, or if you don't use Shimmering shield? "Combine being a Warden and a Nord using Shimmering Shield with Hist Champion and Akaviri Dragonguard, and that's amazing". You can do it, yes. But essentially, it's ***. I'd much rather keep my universal damage reduction, my health recovery and max stats - and build specifically for "ulti gen", if that's what I want.

Raudgrani

IronWooshu wrote: »

I would like to see the ulti gen cooldown shorter on the Nord, bring it down to like 8 seconds.

Make it no cooldown whatsoever, and it might start to get close to compensating all the other stuff they messed up.

Can't see why they simply didn't make MORPHS of racial passives. So that you COULD remain the same, or fiddle around with this if you wanted to make an "ulti poop tank", an Orc magsorc, or a Khajiit healer. Why, just WHY do they need to turn the game completely upside down every time they decide to "balance" something? Some of us are pretty pleased with the characters we made, and we don't want to theory craft and spend a fortune on armor etc. once every six months.

Tatertodd

I wish I could magically make the game split between PVP and PVE so the Devs can just balance each race & class according to their PVE performance and then separately balance each race & class according to their PVP performance. The mixing of the two just rubs everyone the wrong way.

Sun7dance

Wood Elves are no longer immune to the status effect of disease damage.
That's a huge nerf, especially for medium armour in pvp.
I don't understand ZOS kind of view here!

MAGISSCIEN

This all looks great and excellently balanced EXCEPT Dunmer.

My thoughts.

As has been stated above they are losing out to the other races for Magicka builds and Stamina builds. There are no viable hybrid dps builds and any that are tried always fail. The flame resist is only a 3% reduction and is way too situational compared to the other 2 magicka races specifically.

Ideas.
1. Switching the 600 health to 600 magicka or stamina based on whichever is higher would definitely help here.
2. Another thought as we do not have morphs for racial skills might be something like the example below.

Destructive Ancestry: Increases your Weapon Damage or Spell Damage(Whichever is higher) by 387 *This one alone would probably balance Dunmer and Altmer as they were before.

Feel free to quote me on this anyone if you like the idea. Would definitely help it get noticed.

ArvenAldmeri

The altmer recovery change is nothing but a huge nerf. Its almost like if it got removed overall. It restores less than what natural magicka recovery does. And bound to class skills... useless, completely. Rip mag sorc.

joaaocaampos

I edited and decided to post again. This is my feedback.

High Elf

• Spell Recharge: Restore 575 Magicka or Stamina, based on whichever is higher, after activating a Class Magicka Ability. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an Magicka ability with a cast or channel time.

Wood Elf

• Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% 10% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.

Breton

• Spell Resistance: Gain 2310 2640 Spell Resistance and 100 Magicka Recovery.

Dark Elf

• Dynamic: Increases your Max Stamina and Magicka by 1250 2000.
• Resist Flame: Increases your Max Health by 600 and your Flame Resistance by 2310 2640. You are immune to the Burning status effect.
• Ruination: Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258.

Khajiit

• Robustness: Increases your Health, Stamina and Magicka Recovery by 100 and your Stamina and Magicka recovery by 75.

Nord

• Resist Frost: Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Cold Resistance by 2310 2640. You are immune to the Chilled status effect.

Orc

• Brawny: Increases your Max Health and Stamina by 500 1000.

• High Elves gaining Stamina? WHAT? Class Ability? No, Magicka Ability!
• Wood Elves mobility is too high.
• Why 2640 Resistance? 2640 = 4%, while 2310 = 3,5. Accurate numbers, please!
• Dark Elves lose Weapon Damage, but gain Stamina. Much better!

John_Falstaff

@MAGISSCIEN , I thought earlier @Masel brought numbers, and dunmers turn out to be too stamina DPS, no?

amir412

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_GinaBruno Please reconsider the change to % again instead of flat stat to max stamina, magicka & HP,
This change is damaging build diversity by alot which is already damaged, and limit the way players want to play.

Choosing to stack max stats, isnt better than stacking weapon damage etc (7th legion + Fury rather than hulking + shackle for example) - First build will still win, but its fun to know that there is a slightly less powerfull alternative.