HaruyukiHana wrote: »Well open world pvp in cyro was never meant to be competitive. We have BGs for that. Now, BGs is still pretty undeveloped right now, but making it a base game feature, having the option to select game mode, and having better matchmaking for solos and groups are all steps to the right direction. Hopefully we can host our own BG game soon.
Having said that Cyrodiil isn't competitive, it doesnt mean that it isn't challenging / unfun, since you can look for fights, form groups to fight zergs, etc.
PenguinInACan wrote: »They all share members, and they all have (at one point or another) had members playing on opposing faction PvP guilds.
PenguinInACan wrote: »They all share members, and they all have (at one point or another) had members playing on opposing faction PvP guilds.
To be clear, and assuming you're referencing Omni in this group of "1-3 guilds", I have one member in my guild that runs with Invictus. The entirety of my remaining roster does not run regularly with IVS or Drac (though 1-2 of us have popped into IVS to hang out once or twice here and there when bored).
Roster sharing absolutely is a thing, yes, but it's really less prevalent than some like to think. Even between Drac and IVS, the amount of legitimate, regular overlap boils down to only a couple people, really.
We generally tend to overlap more with less-hardcore guilds than with each other, all else equal.
As for playing other factions...sure, that happens. Most of us have rerolled at some point out of bored on or to play with friends elsewhere. When you've logged thousands of hours in the game over the years, sometimes a change of scenery is warranted.
I’m actually quite surprised to see such a different perspective on fights between guilds like Dracarys and some of the other guilds posting here. From our point of view the above almost completely misses the point of our gameplay.PenguinInACan wrote: »[*]Pug farming vs. Objective pushing:
This is a big topic that a lot of people seem to unrealistically amalgamate. Farming pugs can be fun. Pushing objectives can be fun. So it would seem that pushing an objective that would result in farming pugs is the most desirable outcome. The problem is this doesn't really happen anymore. Sure, you can take a home keep and "farm" it for 20 minutes, but the major guilds avoid the farms, you only fight pugs, and you really only get better at fighting pugs by doing it consistently. When the major guilds show up to stop the farm, its turned into a "those *blank* are zerging us and can never fight us even numbers." When in reality most PvP guilds never run comparable numbers/composition, and rarely communicate prior/post engagement to progress future fights/inter-guild relations.
I agree that the response to GvG from many guilds has been extremely disappointing. There majority of guilds have been approached to attend the GvG events but most have declined to attend (Including TM).PenguinInACan wrote: »[*]Collaboration within PvP guild community:
This is something that I have seen a lot of talk about doing, but very little action in accomplishing its progress. I've seen the lists of current PvP guilds posted all around different threads, and they paint a picture of a very healthy PvP environment, but we all log in and have a very different experience. A GvG every few weeks/months isn't enough to foster any real community development. Guilds need consistent competition to keep their skills at their best.
I don’t consider ‘fair(equal number)’ to be the definition of competitive when it comes to openworld. Of course if we are participating in a GVG then normally we would expect a more structured environment where numbers are agreed upon etc and that’s really fun. Equally organic openworld fights where we are outnumbered or roughly equal is also fun for us and we consider it to be somewhat competitive in an ‘ESO’ sense. You get to know the guilds you are fighting’s relative strength levels and what you can consider a ‘fair’ fight might be your group vs their group equal numbers, or their group being full and yours being 16 / 12. Or even them having pug or other guild support. Very regularly guilds running together with their faction ‘pile in’ during a fight rather than take a more even fight. That’s ok with us too if they consider that is their opportunity for victory.PenguinInACan wrote: »The typical raid night for a PvP guild is, however, much different. In my experience, a PvP raid night is: assess comp -> take objectives according to comp -> get as much AP as possible -> get "zerged" by pugs/other organized guilds. I do not believe any raid leader starts a raid night with the objective of "we are going to get fair/competitive fights tonight, and only fair/competitive fights." Anyone that says fair/competitive fights are what they are looking for/encouraging need to work on their guild to guild communication.
Its very easy to label the issue as being the mindset and egos of the “elite” being a problem I haven’t really experienced this at all. In fact almost all of the top end guilds that I know regularly offer assistance and advice to those wishing to improve. Sure there is always a bit of salt and rivaly between relatively equally matched guilds but I would actually say the problem is almost the opposite in my eyes. The attitude of the “if I can’t beat them they are cheating” players is what truly ruins the community. Those that profane to be moral pillars on one hand who then rage whisper and slander others in the other are the true issue for me at least.PenguinInACan wrote: »The reality of all of this is "competitive" is a term ESO PvP doesn't deserve, not because of the design of Cyrodiil, but because of the mindset and egos of the "elite" PvP community. Being the best at something is more about promotion of the sport and less about personal recognition. We have a lot of "look at me, I am great" personalities, and very few "look at me, I can help."
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »I’m actually quite surprised to see such a different perspective on fights between guilds like Dracarys and some of the other guilds posting here. From our point of view the above almost completely misses the point of our gameplay.PenguinInACan wrote: »[*]Pug farming vs. Objective pushing:
This is a big topic that a lot of people seem to unrealistically amalgamate. Farming pugs can be fun. Pushing objectives can be fun. So it would seem that pushing an objective that would result in farming pugs is the most desirable outcome. The problem is this doesn't really happen anymore. Sure, you can take a home keep and "farm" it for 20 minutes, but the major guilds avoid the farms, you only fight pugs, and you really only get better at fighting pugs by doing it consistently. When the major guilds show up to stop the farm, its turned into a "those *blank* are zerging us and can never fight us even numbers." When in reality most PvP guilds never run comparable numbers/composition, and rarely communicate prior/post engagement to progress future fights/inter-guild relations.
When we are playing PVP we are looking for one thing, challenging situations. It doesn’t matter to us whether that situation will provide 100k AP or 0 AP. If we can be challenged in a fight and try and prevail then that is enjoyable for us. The most challenging and fun situation for us to be fighting in is where one or more enemy groups are against us. We look for these fights away from our faction because we want to only rely on our own group for support.
There have been amazing fights near Nikel dolmen, fights on bridges, warden hills etc that net almost 0 AP (because once you kill a group and they respawn they are worth nothing). Equally going into a high intensity keep where AD and DC groups are fighting and winning a 70k tick is also a lot of fun too. AP is merely a byproduct of our fights, it’s a rough measure of how we are doing that night sure but it’s more important to us that we find some groups to fight against and have a challenging situation then always being on 100k+ per hr.
Now onto objective pushing and pug farming. A lot of what we do combines pushing objectives with ‘setup times’. For example if we can create a scenario where enemies want to come fight us then its only of benefit because it means that we don’t have to hunt for groups and people to fight. The situation @Satiar mentioned about why VE reverted to frontline fights with the pugs for us would be considered a failure to read the map and create the environment we want to play in. If we fight at a keep and only pugs show up we would likely also consider it a failure because we aren’t challenged in the way that we want to be.
Also its wrong to say that "guilds" avoid farms because very regularly we are farming keeps vs other organised groups and their own pugs. I can understand that it might be a problem for other guilds that they only really meet pugs in keeps like Arrius but Dracarys very rarely experiences this.I agree that the response to GvG from many guilds has been extremely disappointing. There majority of guilds have been approached to attend the GvG events but most have declined to attend (Including TM).PenguinInACan wrote: »[*]Collaboration within PvP guild community:
This is something that I have seen a lot of talk about doing, but very little action in accomplishing its progress. I've seen the lists of current PvP guilds posted all around different threads, and they paint a picture of a very healthy PvP environment, but we all log in and have a very different experience. A GvG every few weeks/months isn't enough to foster any real community development. Guilds need consistent competition to keep their skills at their best.
This being said there have been a number of groups who recognised that actually attending and fighting each other in a positive and friendly manor helps improve both participating guilds and foster greater community.
I would gladly invite TM and any other guild which is yet to experience community run GvGs to consider participating regardless of perfect compositions. I often find it hard to believe that guilds which often run full raids find it hard to make a 12v12 or 16v16 comp especially for what ‘should be’ a fun and different event to freshen up gameplay. I’ll contact you in game and maybe we can talk about the next events.I don’t consider ‘fair(equal number)’ to be the definition of competitive when it comes to openworld. Of course if we are participating in a GVG then normally we would expect a more structured environment where numbers are agreed upon etc and that’s really fun. Equally organic openworld fights where we are outnumbered or roughly equal is also fun for us and we consider it to be somewhat competitive in an ‘ESO’ sense. You get to know the guilds you are fighting’s relative strength levels and what you can consider a ‘fair’ fight might be your group vs their group equal numbers, or their group being full and yours being 16 / 12. Or even them having pug or other guild support. Very regularly guilds running together with their faction ‘pile in’ during a fight rather than take a more even fight. That’s ok with us too if they consider that is their opportunity for victory.PenguinInACan wrote: »The typical raid night for a PvP guild is, however, much different. In my experience, a PvP raid night is: assess comp -> take objectives according to comp -> get as much AP as possible -> get "zerged" by pugs/other organized guilds. I do not believe any raid leader starts a raid night with the objective of "we are going to get fair/competitive fights tonight, and only fair/competitive fights." Anyone that says fair/competitive fights are what they are looking for/encouraging need to work on their guild to guild communication.
Certainly your composition and numbers informs what you can likely expect from your group but that doesn’t stop us trying to push our expectations. “get as much AP as possible” very rarely crosses our minds when we are setting goals for a night. Instead we look for group fights in challenging situations to push ourselves and improve. Additionally we also sometimes have a goal of creating a fight in certain area to make use of new terrain locations for the pure enjoyment of finding something fresh about the game. Our main criteria is “where are the enemy factions fighting”, “where are enemy groups” and “where can we attract many enemies and challenge ourselves”Its very easy to label the issue as being the mindset and egos of the “elite” being a problem I haven’t really experienced this at all. In fact almost all of the top end guilds that I know regularly offer assistance and advice to those wishing to improve. Sure there is always a bit of salt and rivaly between relatively equally matched guilds but I would actually say the problem is almost the opposite in my eyes. The attitude of the “if I can’t beat them they are cheating” players is what truly ruins the community. Those that profane to be moral pillars on one hand who then rage whisper and slander others in the other are the true issue for me at least.PenguinInACan wrote: »The reality of all of this is "competitive" is a term ESO PvP doesn't deserve, not because of the design of Cyrodiil, but because of the mindset and egos of the "elite" PvP community. Being the best at something is more about promotion of the sport and less about personal recognition. We have a lot of "look at me, I am great" personalities, and very few "look at me, I can help."
kpittsniperb14_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »I’m actually quite surprised to see such a different perspective on fights between guilds like Dracarys and some of the other guilds posting here. From our point of view the above almost completely misses the point of our gameplay.PenguinInACan wrote: »[*]Pug farming vs. Objective pushing:
This is a big topic that a lot of people seem to unrealistically amalgamate. Farming pugs can be fun. Pushing objectives can be fun. So it would seem that pushing an objective that would result in farming pugs is the most desirable outcome. The problem is this doesn't really happen anymore. Sure, you can take a home keep and "farm" it for 20 minutes, but the major guilds avoid the farms, you only fight pugs, and you really only get better at fighting pugs by doing it consistently. When the major guilds show up to stop the farm, its turned into a "those *blank* are zerging us and can never fight us even numbers." When in reality most PvP guilds never run comparable numbers/composition, and rarely communicate prior/post engagement to progress future fights/inter-guild relations.
When we are playing PVP we are looking for one thing, challenging situations. It doesn’t matter to us whether that situation will provide 100k AP or 0 AP. If we can be challenged in a fight and try and prevail then that is enjoyable for us. The most challenging and fun situation for us to be fighting in is where one or more enemy groups are against us. We look for these fights away from our faction because we want to only rely on our own group for support.
There have been amazing fights near Nikel dolmen, fights on bridges, warden hills etc that net almost 0 AP (because once you kill a group and they respawn they are worth nothing). Equally going into a high intensity keep where AD and DC groups are fighting and winning a 70k tick is also a lot of fun too. AP is merely a byproduct of our fights, it’s a rough measure of how we are doing that night sure but it’s more important to us that we find some groups to fight against and have a challenging situation then always being on 100k+ per hr.
Now onto objective pushing and pug farming. A lot of what we do combines pushing objectives with ‘setup times’. For example if we can create a scenario where enemies want to come fight us then its only of benefit because it means that we don’t have to hunt for groups and people to fight. The situation @Satiar mentioned about why VE reverted to frontline fights with the pugs for us would be considered a failure to read the map and create the environment we want to play in. If we fight at a keep and only pugs show up we would likely also consider it a failure because we aren’t challenged in the way that we want to be.
Also its wrong to say that "guilds" avoid farms because very regularly we are farming keeps vs other organised groups and their own pugs. I can understand that it might be a problem for other guilds that they only really meet pugs in keeps like Arrius but Dracarys very rarely experiences this.I agree that the response to GvG from many guilds has been extremely disappointing. There majority of guilds have been approached to attend the GvG events but most have declined to attend (Including TM).PenguinInACan wrote: »[*]Collaboration within PvP guild community:
This is something that I have seen a lot of talk about doing, but very little action in accomplishing its progress. I've seen the lists of current PvP guilds posted all around different threads, and they paint a picture of a very healthy PvP environment, but we all log in and have a very different experience. A GvG every few weeks/months isn't enough to foster any real community development. Guilds need consistent competition to keep their skills at their best.
This being said there have been a number of groups who recognised that actually attending and fighting each other in a positive and friendly manor helps improve both participating guilds and foster greater community.
I would gladly invite TM and any other guild which is yet to experience community run GvGs to consider participating regardless of perfect compositions. I often find it hard to believe that guilds which often run full raids find it hard to make a 12v12 or 16v16 comp especially for what ‘should be’ a fun and different event to freshen up gameplay. I’ll contact you in game and maybe we can talk about the next events.I don’t consider ‘fair(equal number)’ to be the definition of competitive when it comes to openworld. Of course if we are participating in a GVG then normally we would expect a more structured environment where numbers are agreed upon etc and that’s really fun. Equally organic openworld fights where we are outnumbered or roughly equal is also fun for us and we consider it to be somewhat competitive in an ‘ESO’ sense. You get to know the guilds you are fighting’s relative strength levels and what you can consider a ‘fair’ fight might be your group vs their group equal numbers, or their group being full and yours being 16 / 12. Or even them having pug or other guild support. Very regularly guilds running together with their faction ‘pile in’ during a fight rather than take a more even fight. That’s ok with us too if they consider that is their opportunity for victory.PenguinInACan wrote: »The typical raid night for a PvP guild is, however, much different. In my experience, a PvP raid night is: assess comp -> take objectives according to comp -> get as much AP as possible -> get "zerged" by pugs/other organized guilds. I do not believe any raid leader starts a raid night with the objective of "we are going to get fair/competitive fights tonight, and only fair/competitive fights." Anyone that says fair/competitive fights are what they are looking for/encouraging need to work on their guild to guild communication.
Certainly your composition and numbers informs what you can likely expect from your group but that doesn’t stop us trying to push our expectations. “get as much AP as possible” very rarely crosses our minds when we are setting goals for a night. Instead we look for group fights in challenging situations to push ourselves and improve. Additionally we also sometimes have a goal of creating a fight in certain area to make use of new terrain locations for the pure enjoyment of finding something fresh about the game. Our main criteria is “where are the enemy factions fighting”, “where are enemy groups” and “where can we attract many enemies and challenge ourselves”Its very easy to label the issue as being the mindset and egos of the “elite” being a problem I haven’t really experienced this at all. In fact almost all of the top end guilds that I know regularly offer assistance and advice to those wishing to improve. Sure there is always a bit of salt and rivaly between relatively equally matched guilds but I would actually say the problem is almost the opposite in my eyes. The attitude of the “if I can’t beat them they are cheating” players is what truly ruins the community. Those that profane to be moral pillars on one hand who then rage whisper and slander others in the other are the true issue for me at least.PenguinInACan wrote: »The reality of all of this is "competitive" is a term ESO PvP doesn't deserve, not because of the design of Cyrodiil, but because of the mindset and egos of the "elite" PvP community. Being the best at something is more about promotion of the sport and less about personal recognition. We have a lot of "look at me, I am great" personalities, and very few "look at me, I can help."
Which guilds run full raids often?
I guess I don't understand everyone's measuring contest here. I thought Marek's comments were general observations of the state of the community and generally pretty accurate. Since I play with him and people who play with him regularly, I'm pretty sure some of his veiled criticism applied to his own guilds, so I don't think anyone should assume he is pointing fingers specifially.
Also TM groups are normally 9-10 these days, which is why you don't see TM farming at bleaks or crashing into you head to head without support like we used to. In fact that's where a lot of Mareks comments derive from. Not from pointing fingers and blaming guilds as some seem to think. The community of people willing to run group meta roles and have multiple toons geared this way is tiny and generally committed across several guilds.
I guess I don't understand everyone's measuring contest here. I thought Marek's comments were general observations of the state of the community and generally pretty accurate. Since I play with him and people who play with him regularly, I'm pretty sure some of his veiled criticism applied to his own guilds, so I don't think anyone should assume he is pointing fingers specifially.
Also TM groups are normally 9-10 these days, which is why you don't see TM farming at bleaks or crashing into you head to head without support like we used to. In fact that's where a lot of Mareks comments derive from. Not from pointing fingers and blaming guilds as some seem to think. The community of people willing to run group meta roles and have multiple toons geared this way is tiny and generally committed across several guilds.
Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »I guess I don't understand everyone's measuring contest here. I thought Marek's comments were general observations of the state of the community and generally pretty accurate. Since I play with him and people who play with him regularly, I'm pretty sure some of his veiled criticism applied to his own guilds, so I don't think anyone should assume he is pointing fingers specifially.
Also TM groups are normally 9-10 these days, which is why you don't see TM farming at bleaks or crashing into you head to head without support like we used to. In fact that's where a lot of Mareks comments derive from. Not from pointing fingers and blaming guilds as some seem to think. The community of people willing to run group meta roles and have multiple toons geared this way is tiny and generally committed across several guilds.
Lemme tell ya, those of us who run support roles (not even heals, just pure support) don't get any flashy numbers to show off, don't get any giant kill streaks or hosts of killing blows.
It takes a lot of stuffing one's own ego into a box to handle it for long stretches of a time, and it's why it's hard to find folks willing to do it. Everyone wants to be the guy who kills everybody, or keeps everyone alive, or is an impossible to kill rock. No one wants to be the guy that makes it so everyone else can do those things while not being able to do any of those things themself.
... literally don't even have an attack on their bars sometimes...
This is the only "actiony" game I play, man. I mostly play Paradox games and deep strategy games like that, which is kind of why I fell in love with Cyro. The huge map! The strategy! The dynamic opposition! The fact that it is obviously built for large, synergized groups of players working as a team that is more than the sum of its parts!
I find it really disappointing that most of the community really wants groups to actually just be the sum of their parts, which is boring as hell to me and if that's what the game turns into someday i'll be done with it. But I also am keenly aware that there are maybe 80 players in the entire community who want to play this PVP as it was clearly designed, so that day will probably come sooner or later.
Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
Paradox games are great. I love EU IV and HOI IV. Still haven't successfully retaken the Med as Byzantium in 1444 yet. That is /hard/.
I find an irony in this thread that the PS4 / NA Vivec campaign has been dominated by Aldmeri Dominion for quite some time.
Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »I guess I don't understand everyone's measuring contest here. I thought Marek's comments were general observations of the state of the community and generally pretty accurate. Since I play with him and people who play with him regularly, I'm pretty sure some of his veiled criticism applied to his own guilds, so I don't think anyone should assume he is pointing fingers specifially.
Also TM groups are normally 9-10 these days, which is why you don't see TM farming at bleaks or crashing into you head to head without support like we used to. In fact that's where a lot of Mareks comments derive from. Not from pointing fingers and blaming guilds as some seem to think. The community of people willing to run group meta roles and have multiple toons geared this way is tiny and generally committed across several guilds.
Lemme tell ya, those of us who run support roles (not even heals, just pure support) don't get any flashy numbers to show off, don't get any giant kill streaks or hosts of killing blows.
It takes a lot of stuffing one's own ego into a box to handle it for long stretches of a time, and it's why it's hard to find folks willing to do it. Everyone wants to be the guy who kills everybody, or keeps everyone alive, or is an impossible to kill rock. No one wants to be the guy that makes it so everyone else can do those things while not being able to do any of those things themself.
... literally don't even have an attack on their bars sometimes...
Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
I've never been able to grasp why there's such a big solo pvp community in this game.
Vilestride wrote: »Yeah, no one is defending PUG farming. All I am saying is the hardest fights are all those things you said.....without your faction at your back.
Not being at the front line with PUG and allied guild support doesn't default to meaning you're off farming PUGs.
In fact, you know what, let's go with front line, you're right, front line is the most challenging fight. Just not your own. Nikel for example is often an amazing fight due to the possibility of being met with guilds and huge forces of both opposing factions with next to 0 probability of your own faction aiding you. So yes, the 2 opposing factions front-line is where the best fights are at, agreed.
also...on the down low, the best farms aren't just about not dying, they're actually from taking long contested objectives :P
Vilestride wrote: »Nemesismimz wrote: »Groups work on this same format. You gain strength from your group members not from your individual setup (armour, abilities, tactics)
I believe that gear, abilities and tactics are factors to a groups success, but I agree that your group members are where the real strength come from. the value of good players is far greater than any gear set or tactics I mean these things enhance the group but you can have great gear and great tactics but without the "GOOD" players they are useless.
Absolutely.
The best groups will have players who don't need to be told what to do and when to do it 100% of the time. They will know their role within the group and not deviate in a way would could endanger the rest of the group. The group members will maintain a level of situational awareness as high as their group leader, and they will be able to act in a fluid manner within each other.
Seeing a situation develop in front of them and anticipating their group leader's calls can mean the difference between victory and defeat in this fast paced combat system.
The gear allows us to perform in combat. But without the understanding of the situation around the player and their group, the gear is all but useless.
Im yet to see a 6+ group which did not have a few dedicated purge-only clickers making their group look like an xmas tree. A fact.
With the amount of siege, debuffs, snares and general negative effects that can be applied to player you be foolish to run a large group and not have a dedicated purge role within it. Whether or not you think it's skilful is irrelevant, any good group is going to tell you it's important. But on the topic of it's skillset:
Being a dedicated support player in no way translates to not requiring or displaying the above mentioned skill sets. Whether you're DPS, support or a healer to be successful in large group play you still need good situational awareness, good intuition and the ability to anticipate your leaders movements, good resource management and self reliance and good communication skills.
ShadowProc wrote: »
Because when you go deep into AD you know you will get pugs and not good guilds to fight. A organized raid will mop the floor with 60 pugs. And you know it.
Some of the best guilds fight in the front lines against other guilds. Who do you fight south in the back keeps?
WaltherCarraway wrote: »Ni and TKG from DC are helping AD this season. With Omni, DK and large amount of PUG, AD is able to maintain tactical advantage against EP and DC.
If AD can’t win this campaign then I’d say there must be some real problems with AD...
Vilestride wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »
Because when you go deep into AD you know you will get pugs and not good guilds to fight. A organized raid will mop the floor with 60 pugs. And you know it.
Some of the best guilds fight in the front lines against other guilds. Who do you fight south in the back keeps?
The problem isn't that going deep only results in mostly fighting pugs. The problem is that going anywhere these days almost exclusively results in fighting pugs. There are exceptions of course and they are the answer to your question.
During our times of play we will almost always fight Fantasia multiple times, Iron legion if we go DC. Small TM groups if we take faregyl, Omni if it's Wednesday. Any action against deep AD keeps will almost certainly result in Dom Knights showing up to, not sure if you count that as pugs or not.
Regardless, each of these guilds are their respective factions best guilds online during said times of play and we see them multiple times a night at faregyl/roe/nikel/ash/glade. So when you say going deep only results in pugs fights, unless you mean EVERYONE IN CYRODIL IS A PUG, I don't know what the *** you are talking about.