Kidgangster101 wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Abigail wrote: »

@Merlin13KAGL

And just like the individual I quoted, you also missed my prefacing comment about not wanting Skyshards to be account bound. I'll repeat: I do not want account-bound Skyshards.

And it was not a good analogy.

You pay for access to the game (and even that's not guaranteed - see ToS regarding downtime, announced or otherwise)

If you want a certain power level, you still have to put forth a minimum of effort.

How's this for a better analogy: You pay for access to a fenced parking lot. It's not guaranteed the lot will always be available (repairs). It's not guaranteed that you'll even get a spot if others beat you to it.

If you decide to get up 6 hours later than every one else. it's certainly not guaranteed you'll get front row by the exit simply because you've parked there once before. Just like the game, you're only paying for access. It's up to you how much much you get out of it vs the effort put in.

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Be great full? You know how long it takes to get 160+ skillpoints

Show me a build that requires 160 skillpoints straight out of the gate. I'll even give you the points for better decon so you don't have to swap characters for breakdown. In fact, taking off the full 30 in crafting (some of which is still overkill, you can get away with 9 without affecting viability) So, 130+ points remaining.

60 points for maxed, morphed, full passives on class skills (again, there are likely some that are optional for almost any build/role/class). That leaves 70+ 'needed.'

44 gets you two full weapon lines. Another 13 your main armor line.

That pretty much leaves you Alliance war (which will provide you some of the needed points) and Guilds (Undaunted will definitely provide you the needed points for all of them, if you do it right.).

Again, this is every skill, every passive, and in most cases, some can be disregarded.

In other cases, the difference is going to be initially minor, which means your character will be far from unplayable.

You can be viable in 50-100 hours per character, including points, and that's if you *** around.

I will get you later my pvp/pve build for templar I spent over 100 skill points before getting my crafts. I will count out exactly what I had to get later. Crafts alone is going to take 150+ skill points to max everything. I'm sorry that you think you can make a build using low skillpoints but I actually put effort into my toons. I play multiple toons with 150+ skill points each and I always find myself wishing I had more to slightly improve each toon. So don't tell me I can make a viable build with low sp (because you can make a cookie cutter build with low sp that doesn't do what my toon can.)

once again. You CHOOSE to want to do those extra things (PVE/PVP and Crafting). The point is that you only NEED about 100 skill points to make a character that is VIABLE (not ELITE, not the best, but VIABLE). If you want to be elite, if you want it to be the best, you need to put in some work.

I thought the post you quoted was very clear about a character being viable, but you took this to mean maxed out and can do anything, there's a fundamental disconnect there.

Bruh idk how you function with less. I play pvp and pve I need all of my moves in one way or another. If not all I'm doing is hurting the people that I play with. I just looked at my build and it takes 215 skill points for me to be able to swap moves on the go depending on the situation I'm put into on my Templar. Whether I pvp or do pve i shouldn't need to respec so I got them all. This does not include any crafting skill lines. Now I get you don't need to max out everything to be "casual" and by the way I am casual I play less than 4 hours on average a day. But just from what I've seen in this game on pvp if you don't do these you can struggle to do anything good. If you pve each one of these skill points could mean one less situational move you need depending on a group set up. Whie you don't need them it is certainly nice to have them. And I'm constantly making an argument comparing it to CP so here I'll give this way a try to break it down.

Now if people actually listen to our argument about being for it maybe people would collect everything on one toon so all their toons become strong as they level. Let's compare the game as you level.

Look I'm level 3 I just joined the server let's duel another level 3 because I have 810+CP and they have 0. Wow I'm so powerful.

Now my scenario. Look I'm level 3 I have 300 skill points. Let me assign these skill points right away! Wait what gives!? I can still only unlock 3 moves this is stupid. I thought I was going to be super powerful and elite!

Do you see the difference? Lol

tmbrinks wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Abigail wrote: »

@Merlin13KAGL

And just like the individual I quoted, you also missed my prefacing comment about not wanting Skyshards to be account bound. I'll repeat: I do not want account-bound Skyshards.

And it was not a good analogy.

You pay for access to the game (and even that's not guaranteed - see ToS regarding downtime, announced or otherwise)

If you want a certain power level, you still have to put forth a minimum of effort.

How's this for a better analogy: You pay for access to a fenced parking lot. It's not guaranteed the lot will always be available (repairs). It's not guaranteed that you'll even get a spot if others beat you to it.

If you decide to get up 6 hours later than every one else. it's certainly not guaranteed you'll get front row by the exit simply because you've parked there once before. Just like the game, you're only paying for access. It's up to you how much much you get out of it vs the effort put in.

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Be great full? You know how long it takes to get 160+ skillpoints

Show me a build that requires 160 skillpoints straight out of the gate. I'll even give you the points for better decon so you don't have to swap characters for breakdown. In fact, taking off the full 30 in crafting (some of which is still overkill, you can get away with 9 without affecting viability) So, 130+ points remaining.

60 points for maxed, morphed, full passives on class skills (again, there are likely some that are optional for almost any build/role/class). That leaves 70+ 'needed.'

44 gets you two full weapon lines. Another 13 your main armor line.

That pretty much leaves you Alliance war (which will provide you some of the needed points) and Guilds (Undaunted will definitely provide you the needed points for all of them, if you do it right.).

Again, this is every skill, every passive, and in most cases, some can be disregarded.

In other cases, the difference is going to be initially minor, which means your character will be far from unplayable.

You can be viable in 50-100 hours per character, including points, and that's if you *** around.

I will get you later my pvp/pve build for templar I spent over 100 skill points before getting my crafts. I will count out exactly what I had to get later. Crafts alone is going to take 150+ skill points to max everything. I'm sorry that you think you can make a build using low skillpoints but I actually put effort into my toons. I play multiple toons with 150+ skill points each and I always find myself wishing I had more to slightly improve each toon. So don't tell me I can make a viable build with low sp (because you can make a cookie cutter build with low sp that doesn't do what my toon can.)

once again. You CHOOSE to want to do those extra things (PVE/PVP and Crafting). The point is that you only NEED about 100 skill points to make a character that is VIABLE (not ELITE, not the best, but VIABLE). If you want to be elite, if you want it to be the best, you need to put in some work.

I thought the post you quoted was very clear about a character being viable, but you took this to mean maxed out and can do anything, there's a fundamental disconnect there.

Bruh idk how you function with less. I play pvp and pve I need all of my moves in one way or another. If not all I'm doing is hurting the people that I play with. I just looked at my build and it takes 215 skill points for me to be able to swap moves on the go depending on the situation I'm put into on my Templar. Whether I pvp or do pve i shouldn't need to respec so I got them all. This does not include any crafting skill lines. Now I get you don't need to max out everything to be "casual" and by the way I am casual I play less than 4 hours on average a day. But just from what I've seen in this game on pvp if you don't do these you can struggle to do anything good. If you pve each one of these skill points could mean one less situational move you need depending on a group set up. Whie you don't need them it is certainly nice to have them. And I'm constantly making an argument comparing it to CP so here I'll give this way a try to break it down.

Now if people actually listen to our argument about being for it maybe people would collect everything on one toon so all their toons become strong as they level. Let's compare the game as you level.

Look I'm level 3 I just joined the server let's duel another level 3 because I have 810+CP and they have 0. Wow I'm so powerful.

Now my scenario. Look I'm level 3 I have 300 skill points. Let me assign these skill points right away! Wait what gives!? I can still only unlock 3 moves this is stupid. I thought I was going to be super powerful and elite!

Do you see the difference? Lol

Bruh... (really?). I'm not talking about being able to do everything... learn to read. simply by leveling (by questing, not skyreach grind), you can pve OR pvp OR craft. If you want to do pve AND pvp, or pve AND craft, or pvp AND craft, or all three, then you need to get extra skill points. Do you see what I'm saying. you CHOOSE to want to do all 3, you need to put in some work for it, bruh.

Your suggestion would make that that everybody could instantly have (after a couple hours in skyreach) up to 8 (15 with crown slots) fully leveled characters, with all the skill points they need to do everything. I don't give a crap about 1-50, this is an argument for max level characters. There are some try-hards who care about "lowbie" pvp or BG's.

As you level, you would be able to instantly unlock all the crafting skills, as you decon gear, all the armor passives, all the mages guild/fighters guild/undaunted skill immediately upon leveling those up. That's the OP part. Not the redundant extremist argument where "I'm a level 3.. blah, blah, blah" and you don't have them leveled. Current system, you have to decide what's most important to you to unlock. Your system, you get those immediately upon leveling, because you already have the skill point queued up, waiting to be spent. Not OP? It is.

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Abigail wrote: »

@Merlin13KAGL

And just like the individual I quoted, you also missed my prefacing comment about not wanting Skyshards to be account bound. I'll repeat: I do not want account-bound Skyshards.

And it was not a good analogy.

You pay for access to the game (and even that's not guaranteed - see ToS regarding downtime, announced or otherwise)

If you want a certain power level, you still have to put forth a minimum of effort.

How's this for a better analogy: You pay for access to a fenced parking lot. It's not guaranteed the lot will always be available (repairs). It's not guaranteed that you'll even get a spot if others beat you to it.

If you decide to get up 6 hours later than every one else. it's certainly not guaranteed you'll get front row by the exit simply because you've parked there once before. Just like the game, you're only paying for access. It's up to you how much much you get out of it vs the effort put in.

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Be great full? You know how long it takes to get 160+ skillpoints

Show me a build that requires 160 skillpoints straight out of the gate. I'll even give you the points for better decon so you don't have to swap characters for breakdown. In fact, taking off the full 30 in crafting (some of which is still overkill, you can get away with 9 without affecting viability) So, 130+ points remaining.

60 points for maxed, morphed, full passives on class skills (again, there are likely some that are optional for almost any build/role/class). That leaves 70+ 'needed.'

44 gets you two full weapon lines. Another 13 your main armor line.

That pretty much leaves you Alliance war (which will provide you some of the needed points) and Guilds (Undaunted will definitely provide you the needed points for all of them, if you do it right.).

Again, this is every skill, every passive, and in most cases, some can be disregarded.

In other cases, the difference is going to be initially minor, which means your character will be far from unplayable.

You can be viable in 50-100 hours per character, including points, and that's if you *** around.

I will get you later my pvp/pve build for templar I spent over 100 skill points before getting my crafts. I will count out exactly what I had to get later. Crafts alone is going to take 150+ skill points to max everything. I'm sorry that you think you can make a build using low skillpoints but I actually put effort into my toons. I play multiple toons with 150+ skill points each and I always find myself wishing I had more to slightly improve each toon. So don't tell me I can make a viable build with low sp (because you can make a cookie cutter build with low sp that doesn't do what my toon can.)

once again. You CHOOSE to want to do those extra things (PVE/PVP and Crafting). The point is that you only NEED about 100 skill points to make a character that is VIABLE (not ELITE, not the best, but VIABLE). If you want to be elite, if you want it to be the best, you need to put in some work.

I thought the post you quoted was very clear about a character being viable, but you took this to mean maxed out and can do anything, there's a fundamental disconnect there.

Bruh idk how you function with less. I play pvp and pve I need all of my moves in one way or another. If not all I'm doing is hurting the people that I play with. I just looked at my build and it takes 215 skill points for me to be able to swap moves on the go depending on the situation I'm put into on my Templar. Whether I pvp or do pve i shouldn't need to respec so I got them all. This does not include any crafting skill lines. Now I get you don't need to max out everything to be "casual" and by the way I am casual I play less than 4 hours on average a day. But just from what I've seen in this game on pvp if you don't do these you can struggle to do anything good. If you pve each one of these skill points could mean one less situational move you need depending on a group set up. Whie you don't need them it is certainly nice to have them. And I'm constantly making an argument comparing it to CP so here I'll give this way a try to break it down.

Now if people actually listen to our argument about being for it maybe people would collect everything on one toon so all their toons become strong as they level. Let's compare the game as you level.

Look I'm level 3 I just joined the server let's duel another level 3 because I have 810+CP and they have 0. Wow I'm so powerful.

Now my scenario. Look I'm level 3 I have 300 skill points. Let me assign these skill points right away! Wait what gives!? I can still only unlock 3 moves this is stupid. I thought I was going to be super powerful and elite!

Do you see the difference? Lol

Bruh... (really?). I'm not talking about being able to do everything... learn to read. simply by leveling (by questing, not skyreach grind), you can pve OR pvp OR craft. If you want to do pve AND pvp, or pve AND craft, or pvp AND craft, or all three, then you need to get extra skill points. Do you see what I'm saying. you CHOOSE to want to do all 3, you need to put in some work for it, bruh.

Your suggestion would make that that everybody could instantly have (after a couple hours in skyreach) up to 8 (15 with crown slots) fully leveled characters, with all the skill points they need to do everything. I don't give a crap about 1-50, this is an argument for max level characters. There are some try-hards who care about "lowbie" pvp or BG's.

As you level, you would be able to instantly unlock all the crafting skills, as you decon gear, all the armor passives, all the mages guild/fighters guild/undaunted skill immediately upon leveling those up. That's the OP part. Not the redundant extremist argument where "I'm a level 3.. blah, blah, blah" and you don't have them leveled. Current system, you have to decide what's most important to you to unlock. Your system, you get those immediately upon leveling, because you already have the skill point queued up, waiting to be spent. Not OP? It is.

That's the op part you say? Getting all the skills as you level but starting the game with 810cp isn't cheap? Again compared to a game breaking concept like CP skill points are absolutely nothing lol. That is the point I've been trying to make and you won't accknowledge that point cause you know I'm 100% correct. Moves and classes get nerfed constantly because of CP not because skillpoints.

So again I will ask and you can ignore my question like everyone is dodging it on this forum because they know I'm right and won't admit it.

If a game changing mechanic like CP is account bound (something every toon needs as high as possible) then what makes it to overpowered to have skillpoints to use as you level? CP is unlocked at 3 and you can use 810 from level 3. So what's the difference please explain to me.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Abigail wrote: »

@Merlin13KAGL

And just like the individual I quoted, you also missed my prefacing comment about not wanting Skyshards to be account bound. I'll repeat: I do not want account-bound Skyshards.

And it was not a good analogy.

You pay for access to the game (and even that's not guaranteed - see ToS regarding downtime, announced or otherwise)

If you want a certain power level, you still have to put forth a minimum of effort.

How's this for a better analogy: You pay for access to a fenced parking lot. It's not guaranteed the lot will always be available (repairs). It's not guaranteed that you'll even get a spot if others beat you to it.

If you decide to get up 6 hours later than every one else. it's certainly not guaranteed you'll get front row by the exit simply because you've parked there once before. Just like the game, you're only paying for access. It's up to you how much much you get out of it vs the effort put in.

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Be great full? You know how long it takes to get 160+ skillpoints

Show me a build that requires 160 skillpoints straight out of the gate. I'll even give you the points for better decon so you don't have to swap characters for breakdown. In fact, taking off the full 30 in crafting (some of which is still overkill, you can get away with 9 without affecting viability) So, 130+ points remaining.

60 points for maxed, morphed, full passives on class skills (again, there are likely some that are optional for almost any build/role/class). That leaves 70+ 'needed.'

44 gets you two full weapon lines. Another 13 your main armor line.

That pretty much leaves you Alliance war (which will provide you some of the needed points) and Guilds (Undaunted will definitely provide you the needed points for all of them, if you do it right.).

Again, this is every skill, every passive, and in most cases, some can be disregarded.

In other cases, the difference is going to be initially minor, which means your character will be far from unplayable.

You can be viable in 50-100 hours per character, including points, and that's if you *** around.

I will get you later my pvp/pve build for templar I spent over 100 skill points before getting my crafts. I will count out exactly what I had to get later. Crafts alone is going to take 150+ skill points to max everything. I'm sorry that you think you can make a build using low skillpoints but I actually put effort into my toons. I play multiple toons with 150+ skill points each and I always find myself wishing I had more to slightly improve each toon. So don't tell me I can make a viable build with low sp (because you can make a cookie cutter build with low sp that doesn't do what my toon can.)

once again. You CHOOSE to want to do those extra things (PVE/PVP and Crafting). The point is that you only NEED about 100 skill points to make a character that is VIABLE (not ELITE, not the best, but VIABLE). If you want to be elite, if you want it to be the best, you need to put in some work.

I thought the post you quoted was very clear about a character being viable, but you took this to mean maxed out and can do anything, there's a fundamental disconnect there.

Bruh idk how you function with less. I play pvp and pve I need all of my moves in one way or another. If not all I'm doing is hurting the people that I play with. I just looked at my build and it takes 215 skill points for me to be able to swap moves on the go depending on the situation I'm put into on my Templar. Whether I pvp or do pve i shouldn't need to respec so I got them all. This does not include any crafting skill lines. Now I get you don't need to max out everything to be "casual" and by the way I am casual I play less than 4 hours on average a day. But just from what I've seen in this game on pvp if you don't do these you can struggle to do anything good. If you pve each one of these skill points could mean one less situational move you need depending on a group set up. Whie you don't need them it is certainly nice to have them. And I'm constantly making an argument comparing it to CP so here I'll give this way a try to break it down.

Now if people actually listen to our argument about being for it maybe people would collect everything on one toon so all their toons become strong as they level. Let's compare the game as you level.

Look I'm level 3 I just joined the server let's duel another level 3 because I have 810+CP and they have 0. Wow I'm so powerful.

Now my scenario. Look I'm level 3 I have 300 skill points. Let me assign these skill points right away! Wait what gives!? I can still only unlock 3 moves this is stupid. I thought I was going to be super powerful and elite!

Do you see the difference? Lol

Bruh... (really?). I'm not talking about being able to do everything... learn to read. simply by leveling (by questing, not skyreach grind), you can pve OR pvp OR craft. If you want to do pve AND pvp, or pve AND craft, or pvp AND craft, or all three, then you need to get extra skill points. Do you see what I'm saying. you CHOOSE to want to do all 3, you need to put in some work for it, bruh.

Your suggestion would make that that everybody could instantly have (after a couple hours in skyreach) up to 8 (15 with crown slots) fully leveled characters, with all the skill points they need to do everything. I don't give a crap about 1-50, this is an argument for max level characters. There are some try-hards who care about "lowbie" pvp or BG's.

As you level, you would be able to instantly unlock all the crafting skills, as you decon gear, all the armor passives, all the mages guild/fighters guild/undaunted skill immediately upon leveling those up. That's the OP part. Not the redundant extremist argument where "I'm a level 3.. blah, blah, blah" and you don't have them leveled. Current system, you have to decide what's most important to you to unlock. Your system, you get those immediately upon leveling, because you already have the skill point queued up, waiting to be spent. Not OP? It is.

That's the op part you say? Getting all the skills as you level but starting the game with 810cp isn't cheap? Again compared to a game breaking concept like CP skill points are absolutely nothing lol. That is the point I've been trying to make and you won't accknowledge that point cause you know I'm 100% correct. Moves and classes get nerfed constantly because of CP not because skillpoints.

So again I will ask and you can ignore my question like everyone is dodging it on this forum because they know I'm right and won't admit it.

If a game changing mechanic like CP is account bound (something every toon needs as high as possible) then what makes it to overpowered to have skillpoints to use as you level? CP is unlocked at 3 and you can use 810 from level 3. So what's the difference please explain to me.

Speaking of dodging, still waiting to see your 240 point required build, because I'm calling ***.

In the meantime, it seems you've answered your own question. If, in comparison, skillpoints are "absolutely nothing" then it reinforces the lack of necessity for this.

Nerfs aren't a valid reason. That's what respecs are for. Heck, even having almost every possible skill in the game unlocked isn't even a valid reason. Again, that's what respecs are for.

You need one max level crafter, so after that you can get away with 9 points, maybe even 6, across Alchemy and Provisioning. (And Provisioning is really just a convenience.)

World lines? Soul magic, Vamp, WW, all of those advance in other ways, so take those out of the mix.

As previously mentioned, you can take probably half of the Alliance war points out of the picture, as they're provided by leveling Rank and you can't use them until then. Same for Undaunted.

It's already absurdly fast for a CP account to get another max level character. This is one of the very few things that regulate progress in the slightest amount.

So again I will ask and you can ignore my question, like everyone is dodging it.

Post the 240 point build, so it can get picked apart as to why it's absolute overkill and unnecessary on every subsequent character. I'm willing to bet you're spec'ing for mutiple content types, multiple roles, on a max crafting alt, and I bet there's still points you could do without.

So, post. We'll wait.

therift wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Abigail wrote: »

@Merlin13KAGL

And just like the individual I quoted, you also missed my prefacing comment about not wanting Skyshards to be account bound. I'll repeat: I do not want account-bound Skyshards.

And it was not a good analogy.

You pay for access to the game (and even that's not guaranteed - see ToS regarding downtime, announced or otherwise)

If you want a certain power level, you still have to put forth a minimum of effort.

How's this for a better analogy: You pay for access to a fenced parking lot. It's not guaranteed the lot will always be available (repairs). It's not guaranteed that you'll even get a spot if others beat you to it.

If you decide to get up 6 hours later than every one else. it's certainly not guaranteed you'll get front row by the exit simply because you've parked there once before. Just like the game, you're only paying for access. It's up to you how much much you get out of it vs the effort put in.

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Be great full? You know how long it takes to get 160+ skillpoints

Show me a build that requires 160 skillpoints straight out of the gate. I'll even give you the points for better decon so you don't have to swap characters for breakdown. In fact, taking off the full 30 in crafting (some of which is still overkill, you can get away with 9 without affecting viability) So, 130+ points remaining.

60 points for maxed, morphed, full passives on class skills (again, there are likely some that are optional for almost any build/role/class). That leaves 70+ 'needed.'

44 gets you two full weapon lines. Another 13 your main armor line.

That pretty much leaves you Alliance war (which will provide you some of the needed points) and Guilds (Undaunted will definitely provide you the needed points for all of them, if you do it right.).

Again, this is every skill, every passive, and in most cases, some can be disregarded.

In other cases, the difference is going to be initially minor, which means your character will be far from unplayable.

You can be viable in 50-100 hours per character, including points, and that's if you *** around.

I will get you later my pvp/pve build for templar I spent over 100 skill points before getting my crafts. I will count out exactly what I had to get later. Crafts alone is going to take 150+ skill points to max everything. I'm sorry that you think you can make a build using low skillpoints but I actually put effort into my toons. I play multiple toons with 150+ skill points each and I always find myself wishing I had more to slightly improve each toon. So don't tell me I can make a viable build with low sp (because you can make a cookie cutter build with low sp that doesn't do what my toon can.)

once again. You CHOOSE to want to do those extra things (PVE/PVP and Crafting). The point is that you only NEED about 100 skill points to make a character that is VIABLE (not ELITE, not the best, but VIABLE). If you want to be elite, if you want it to be the best, you need to put in some work.

I thought the post you quoted was very clear about a character being viable, but you took this to mean maxed out and can do anything, there's a fundamental disconnect there.

Bruh idk how you function with less. I play pvp and pve I need all of my moves in one way or another. If not all I'm doing is hurting the people that I play with. I just looked at my build and it takes 215 skill points for me to be able to swap moves on the go depending on the situation I'm put into on my Templar. Whether I pvp or do pve i shouldn't need to respec so I got them all. This does not include any crafting skill lines. Now I get you don't need to max out everything to be "casual" and by the way I am casual I play less than 4 hours on average a day. But just from what I've seen in this game on pvp if you don't do these you can struggle to do anything good. If you pve each one of these skill points could mean one less situational move you need depending on a group set up. Whie you don't need them it is certainly nice to have them. And I'm constantly making an argument comparing it to CP so here I'll give this way a try to break it down.

Now if people actually listen to our argument about being for it maybe people would collect everything on one toon so all their toons become strong as they level. Let's compare the game as you level.

Look I'm level 3 I just joined the server let's duel another level 3 because I have 810+CP and they have 0. Wow I'm so powerful.

Now my scenario. Look I'm level 3 I have 300 skill points. Let me assign these skill points right away! Wait what gives!? I can still only unlock 3 moves this is stupid. I thought I was going to be super powerful and elite!

Do you see the difference? Lol

Bruh... (really?). I'm not talking about being able to do everything... learn to read. simply by leveling (by questing, not skyreach grind), you can pve OR pvp OR craft. If you want to do pve AND pvp, or pve AND craft, or pvp AND craft, or all three, then you need to get extra skill points. Do you see what I'm saying. you CHOOSE to want to do all 3, you need to put in some work for it, bruh.

Your suggestion would make that that everybody could instantly have (after a couple hours in skyreach) up to 8 (15 with crown slots) fully leveled characters, with all the skill points they need to do everything. I don't give a crap about 1-50, this is an argument for max level characters. There are some try-hards who care about "lowbie" pvp or BG's.

As you level, you would be able to instantly unlock all the crafting skills, as you decon gear, all the armor passives, all the mages guild/fighters guild/undaunted skill immediately upon leveling those up. That's the OP part. Not the redundant extremist argument where "I'm a level 3.. blah, blah, blah" and you don't have them leveled. Current system, you have to decide what's most important to you to unlock. Your system, you get those immediately upon leveling, because you already have the skill point queued up, waiting to be spent. Not OP? It is.

That's the op part you say? Getting all the skills as you level but starting the game with 810cp isn't cheap? Again compared to a game breaking concept like CP skill points are absolutely nothing lol. That is the point I've been trying to make and you won't accknowledge that point cause you know I'm 100% correct. Moves and classes get nerfed constantly because of CP not because skillpoints.

So again I will ask and you can ignore my question like everyone is dodging it on this forum because they know I'm right and won't admit it.

If a game changing mechanic like CP is account bound (something every toon needs as high as possible) then what makes it to overpowered to have skillpoints to use as you level? CP is unlocked at 3 and you can use 810 from level 3. So what's the difference please explain to me.

Speaking of dodging, still waiting to see your 240 point required build, because I'm calling ***.

In the meantime, it seems you've answered your own question. If, in comparison, skillpoints are "absolutely nothing" then it reinforces the lack of necessity for this.

Nerfs aren't a valid reason. That's what respecs are for. Heck, even having almost every possible skill in the game unlocked isn't even a valid reason. Again, that's what respecs are for.

You need one max level crafter, so after that you can get away with 9 points, maybe even 6, across Alchemy and Provisioning. (And Provisioning is really just a convenience.)

World lines? Soul magic, Vamp, WW, all of those advance in other ways, so take those out of the mix.

As previously mentioned, you can take probably half of the Alliance war points out of the picture, as they're provided by leveling Rank and you can't use them until then. Same for Undaunted.

It's already absurdly fast for a CP account to get another max level character. This is one of the very few things that regulate progress in the slightest amount.

So again I will ask and you can ignore my question, like everyone is dodging it.

Post the 240 point build, so it can get picked apart as to why it's absolute overkill and unnecessary on every subsequent character. I'm willing to bet you're spec'ing for mutiple content types, multiple roles, on a max crafting alt, and I bet there's still points you could do without.

So, post. We'll wait.

So let's go topic by topic here.

1) so you expect someone to pay absurd amounts of gold to keep respecing? Lol but I thought the whole point was to play how we wanted to play?

2) how is getting buffs from provisioning and alchemy not important? Tell an argonian that isn't because it enhances their passive

3) you are right the soul tree is trash. But seriously.the others are not important? Lololololololol!!!!! Vamps and WW are everywhere. You need most of their passives and moves (Templars use elusive mist, most tanks are vamps btw)

4) alliance war and support yes is something you need to level before you invest skill points on, but so isn't every other skill like in the game lol. But to a pvper in cyrodil those are all skills that help and I have all of my passives because it helps. Some of the moves even cross over into pve so they become important. Purge, barrier, rapid maneuver, vigor, caltrops, war horn are all moves used outside of pvp as well as inside pvp. And undaunted is important as well. You can gain free extra stats lol. These are all things you can have leveled up as you play the game no problem at all and they don't take that long.

We might as well tie in all of theirs guild/legermnd/psijic order/ fighters guild/ mage guild all have moves important depending on how you play/ what you want to do in the game as well.

So you want to know where all my points go.

I get my 3 class trees with passives as templar (moves are useful depending on situation to what I do)

Completely fill out swoard and shield with passives everything is useful.

Completely unlock resto staff and passives.

Light armor max. 9 into medium, 7 into heavy (undaunted passives)

Vamp 9 points for mist form bat swarm and passives

Fighters guild dawnbreaker and passives

Mages guild 14 skills in it including mostly passives

Undaunted all passives with orbs

I get all assault and support

My racial passives

And psijic order

Most of these skills are all changed in or out as a healer only. Different pve fights call for different load outs. Different moves are used in pvp depending if I play solo, small group, large group Zerg.

So have fun ripping my moves apart and tell me I don't "need them" and that I'm being an elitist because I worked my ass off for these moves lol. And that's not including me having all my crafting skills maxed on this too as well I put in the work to get this toon this way.

This is the most powerful argument yet against handing out 113 free skill points by making skyshards account bound.

Imagine every alternate character turning into one of these monsters after a few hours of running dolmens in the Alik'r.

Thanks for bringing this iron-clad proof.

By the way... this is a minor point... but I suggest wring 'skills' instead of 'moves'. 'Skills' is the common usage in ESO. I know it's nit-picking, but every time you say you've got to have all of your 'moves', the first thing that comes to mind is my friend's ten year-old son asking for money to buy the latest Fortnite dance move. Because he has to have all the right moves in Fortnite.

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

therift wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Abigail wrote: »

@Merlin13KAGL

And just like the individual I quoted, you also missed my prefacing comment about not wanting Skyshards to be account bound. I'll repeat: I do not want account-bound Skyshards.

And it was not a good analogy.

You pay for access to the game (and even that's not guaranteed - see ToS regarding downtime, announced or otherwise)

If you want a certain power level, you still have to put forth a minimum of effort.

How's this for a better analogy: You pay for access to a fenced parking lot. It's not guaranteed the lot will always be available (repairs). It's not guaranteed that you'll even get a spot if others beat you to it.

If you decide to get up 6 hours later than every one else. it's certainly not guaranteed you'll get front row by the exit simply because you've parked there once before. Just like the game, you're only paying for access. It's up to you how much much you get out of it vs the effort put in.

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Be great full? You know how long it takes to get 160+ skillpoints

Show me a build that requires 160 skillpoints straight out of the gate. I'll even give you the points for better decon so you don't have to swap characters for breakdown. In fact, taking off the full 30 in crafting (some of which is still overkill, you can get away with 9 without affecting viability) So, 130+ points remaining.

60 points for maxed, morphed, full passives on class skills (again, there are likely some that are optional for almost any build/role/class). That leaves 70+ 'needed.'

44 gets you two full weapon lines. Another 13 your main armor line.

That pretty much leaves you Alliance war (which will provide you some of the needed points) and Guilds (Undaunted will definitely provide you the needed points for all of them, if you do it right.).

Again, this is every skill, every passive, and in most cases, some can be disregarded.

In other cases, the difference is going to be initially minor, which means your character will be far from unplayable.

You can be viable in 50-100 hours per character, including points, and that's if you *** around.

I will get you later my pvp/pve build for templar I spent over 100 skill points before getting my crafts. I will count out exactly what I had to get later. Crafts alone is going to take 150+ skill points to max everything. I'm sorry that you think you can make a build using low skillpoints but I actually put effort into my toons. I play multiple toons with 150+ skill points each and I always find myself wishing I had more to slightly improve each toon. So don't tell me I can make a viable build with low sp (because you can make a cookie cutter build with low sp that doesn't do what my toon can.)

once again. You CHOOSE to want to do those extra things (PVE/PVP and Crafting). The point is that you only NEED about 100 skill points to make a character that is VIABLE (not ELITE, not the best, but VIABLE). If you want to be elite, if you want it to be the best, you need to put in some work.

I thought the post you quoted was very clear about a character being viable, but you took this to mean maxed out and can do anything, there's a fundamental disconnect there.

Bruh idk how you function with less. I play pvp and pve I need all of my moves in one way or another. If not all I'm doing is hurting the people that I play with. I just looked at my build and it takes 215 skill points for me to be able to swap moves on the go depending on the situation I'm put into on my Templar. Whether I pvp or do pve i shouldn't need to respec so I got them all. This does not include any crafting skill lines. Now I get you don't need to max out everything to be "casual" and by the way I am casual I play less than 4 hours on average a day. But just from what I've seen in this game on pvp if you don't do these you can struggle to do anything good. If you pve each one of these skill points could mean one less situational move you need depending on a group set up. Whie you don't need them it is certainly nice to have them. And I'm constantly making an argument comparing it to CP so here I'll give this way a try to break it down.

Now if people actually listen to our argument about being for it maybe people would collect everything on one toon so all their toons become strong as they level. Let's compare the game as you level.

Look I'm level 3 I just joined the server let's duel another level 3 because I have 810+CP and they have 0. Wow I'm so powerful.

Now my scenario. Look I'm level 3 I have 300 skill points. Let me assign these skill points right away! Wait what gives!? I can still only unlock 3 moves this is stupid. I thought I was going to be super powerful and elite!

Do you see the difference? Lol

Bruh... (really?). I'm not talking about being able to do everything... learn to read. simply by leveling (by questing, not skyreach grind), you can pve OR pvp OR craft. If you want to do pve AND pvp, or pve AND craft, or pvp AND craft, or all three, then you need to get extra skill points. Do you see what I'm saying. you CHOOSE to want to do all 3, you need to put in some work for it, bruh.

Your suggestion would make that that everybody could instantly have (after a couple hours in skyreach) up to 8 (15 with crown slots) fully leveled characters, with all the skill points they need to do everything. I don't give a crap about 1-50, this is an argument for max level characters. There are some try-hards who care about "lowbie" pvp or BG's.

As you level, you would be able to instantly unlock all the crafting skills, as you decon gear, all the armor passives, all the mages guild/fighters guild/undaunted skill immediately upon leveling those up. That's the OP part. Not the redundant extremist argument where "I'm a level 3.. blah, blah, blah" and you don't have them leveled. Current system, you have to decide what's most important to you to unlock. Your system, you get those immediately upon leveling, because you already have the skill point queued up, waiting to be spent. Not OP? It is.

That's the op part you say? Getting all the skills as you level but starting the game with 810cp isn't cheap? Again compared to a game breaking concept like CP skill points are absolutely nothing lol. That is the point I've been trying to make and you won't accknowledge that point cause you know I'm 100% correct. Moves and classes get nerfed constantly because of CP not because skillpoints.

So again I will ask and you can ignore my question like everyone is dodging it on this forum because they know I'm right and won't admit it.

If a game changing mechanic like CP is account bound (something every toon needs as high as possible) then what makes it to overpowered to have skillpoints to use as you level? CP is unlocked at 3 and you can use 810 from level 3. So what's the difference please explain to me.

Speaking of dodging, still waiting to see your 240 point required build, because I'm calling ***.

In the meantime, it seems you've answered your own question. If, in comparison, skillpoints are "absolutely nothing" then it reinforces the lack of necessity for this.

Nerfs aren't a valid reason. That's what respecs are for. Heck, even having almost every possible skill in the game unlocked isn't even a valid reason. Again, that's what respecs are for.

You need one max level crafter, so after that you can get away with 9 points, maybe even 6, across Alchemy and Provisioning. (And Provisioning is really just a convenience.)

World lines? Soul magic, Vamp, WW, all of those advance in other ways, so take those out of the mix.

As previously mentioned, you can take probably half of the Alliance war points out of the picture, as they're provided by leveling Rank and you can't use them until then. Same for Undaunted.

It's already absurdly fast for a CP account to get another max level character. This is one of the very few things that regulate progress in the slightest amount.

So again I will ask and you can ignore my question, like everyone is dodging it.

Post the 240 point build, so it can get picked apart as to why it's absolute overkill and unnecessary on every subsequent character. I'm willing to bet you're spec'ing for mutiple content types, multiple roles, on a max crafting alt, and I bet there's still points you could do without.

So, post. We'll wait.

So let's go topic by topic here.

1) so you expect someone to pay absurd amounts of gold to keep respecing? Lol but I thought the whole point was to play how we wanted to play?

2) how is getting buffs from provisioning and alchemy not important? Tell an argonian that isn't because it enhances their passive

3) you are right the soul tree is trash. But seriously.the others are not important? Lololololololol!!!!! Vamps and WW are everywhere. You need most of their passives and moves (Templars use elusive mist, most tanks are vamps btw)

4) alliance war and support yes is something you need to level before you invest skill points on, but so isn't every other skill like in the game lol. But to a pvper in cyrodil those are all skills that help and I have all of my passives because it helps. Some of the moves even cross over into pve so they become important. Purge, barrier, rapid maneuver, vigor, caltrops, war horn are all moves used outside of pvp as well as inside pvp. And undaunted is important as well. You can gain free extra stats lol. These are all things you can have leveled up as you play the game no problem at all and they don't take that long.

We might as well tie in all of theirs guild/legermnd/psijic order/ fighters guild/ mage guild all have moves important depending on how you play/ what you want to do in the game as well.

So you want to know where all my points go.

I get my 3 class trees with passives as templar (moves are useful depending on situation to what I do)

Completely fill out swoard and shield with passives everything is useful.

Completely unlock resto staff and passives.

Light armor max. 9 into medium, 7 into heavy (undaunted passives)

Vamp 9 points for mist form bat swarm and passives

Fighters guild dawnbreaker and passives

Mages guild 14 skills in it including mostly passives

Undaunted all passives with orbs

I get all assault and support

My racial passives

And psijic order

Most of these skills are all changed in or out as a healer only. Different pve fights call for different load outs. Different moves are used in pvp depending if I play solo, small group, large group Zerg.

So have fun ripping my moves apart and tell me I don't "need them" and that I'm being an elitist because I worked my ass off for these moves lol. And that's not including me having all my crafting skills maxed on this too as well I put in the work to get this toon this way.

This is the most powerful argument yet against handing out 113 free skill points by making skyshards account bound.

Imagine every alternate character turning into one of these monsters after a few hours of running dolmens in the Alik'r.

Thanks for bringing this iron-clad proof.

By the way... this is a minor point... but I suggest wring 'skills' instead of 'moves'. 'Skills' is the common usage in ESO. I know it's nit-picking, but every time you say you've got to have all of your 'moves', the first thing that comes to mind is my friend's ten year-old son asking for money to buy the latest Fortnite dance move. Because he has to have all the right moves in Fortnite.

Lol yeah this is my main and I'm slowly working on making all my toons that powerful and getting them all these op "moves"

But again these skills have absolutely nothing compared to 810 CP. I see builds all over YouTube that are "DPS builds that have max spell resistance and max physical resistance while having 50k dps" yes those exists because of CP not because someone has op skill points lol. If you don't logically see what's wrong with a DPS or healer matching what a tank is suppose to do then that is a whole topic in itself.

So once again skill points don't break a game but you value you them more game breaking than the actual thing breaking the game glad we could have this talk using logic

tmbrinks wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

therift wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Abigail wrote: »

@Merlin13KAGL

And just like the individual I quoted, you also missed my prefacing comment about not wanting Skyshards to be account bound. I'll repeat: I do not want account-bound Skyshards.

And it was not a good analogy.

You pay for access to the game (and even that's not guaranteed - see ToS regarding downtime, announced or otherwise)

If you want a certain power level, you still have to put forth a minimum of effort.

How's this for a better analogy: You pay for access to a fenced parking lot. It's not guaranteed the lot will always be available (repairs). It's not guaranteed that you'll even get a spot if others beat you to it.

If you decide to get up 6 hours later than every one else. it's certainly not guaranteed you'll get front row by the exit simply because you've parked there once before. Just like the game, you're only paying for access. It's up to you how much much you get out of it vs the effort put in.

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Be great full? You know how long it takes to get 160+ skillpoints

Show me a build that requires 160 skillpoints straight out of the gate. I'll even give you the points for better decon so you don't have to swap characters for breakdown. In fact, taking off the full 30 in crafting (some of which is still overkill, you can get away with 9 without affecting viability) So, 130+ points remaining.

60 points for maxed, morphed, full passives on class skills (again, there are likely some that are optional for almost any build/role/class). That leaves 70+ 'needed.'

44 gets you two full weapon lines. Another 13 your main armor line.

That pretty much leaves you Alliance war (which will provide you some of the needed points) and Guilds (Undaunted will definitely provide you the needed points for all of them, if you do it right.).

Again, this is every skill, every passive, and in most cases, some can be disregarded.

In other cases, the difference is going to be initially minor, which means your character will be far from unplayable.

You can be viable in 50-100 hours per character, including points, and that's if you *** around.

I will get you later my pvp/pve build for templar I spent over 100 skill points before getting my crafts. I will count out exactly what I had to get later. Crafts alone is going to take 150+ skill points to max everything. I'm sorry that you think you can make a build using low skillpoints but I actually put effort into my toons. I play multiple toons with 150+ skill points each and I always find myself wishing I had more to slightly improve each toon. So don't tell me I can make a viable build with low sp (because you can make a cookie cutter build with low sp that doesn't do what my toon can.)

once again. You CHOOSE to want to do those extra things (PVE/PVP and Crafting). The point is that you only NEED about 100 skill points to make a character that is VIABLE (not ELITE, not the best, but VIABLE). If you want to be elite, if you want it to be the best, you need to put in some work.

I thought the post you quoted was very clear about a character being viable, but you took this to mean maxed out and can do anything, there's a fundamental disconnect there.

Bruh idk how you function with less. I play pvp and pve I need all of my moves in one way or another. If not all I'm doing is hurting the people that I play with. I just looked at my build and it takes 215 skill points for me to be able to swap moves on the go depending on the situation I'm put into on my Templar. Whether I pvp or do pve i shouldn't need to respec so I got them all. This does not include any crafting skill lines. Now I get you don't need to max out everything to be "casual" and by the way I am casual I play less than 4 hours on average a day. But just from what I've seen in this game on pvp if you don't do these you can struggle to do anything good. If you pve each one of these skill points could mean one less situational move you need depending on a group set up. Whie you don't need them it is certainly nice to have them. And I'm constantly making an argument comparing it to CP so here I'll give this way a try to break it down.

Now if people actually listen to our argument about being for it maybe people would collect everything on one toon so all their toons become strong as they level. Let's compare the game as you level.

Look I'm level 3 I just joined the server let's duel another level 3 because I have 810+CP and they have 0. Wow I'm so powerful.

Now my scenario. Look I'm level 3 I have 300 skill points. Let me assign these skill points right away! Wait what gives!? I can still only unlock 3 moves this is stupid. I thought I was going to be super powerful and elite!

Do you see the difference? Lol

Bruh... (really?). I'm not talking about being able to do everything... learn to read. simply by leveling (by questing, not skyreach grind), you can pve OR pvp OR craft. If you want to do pve AND pvp, or pve AND craft, or pvp AND craft, or all three, then you need to get extra skill points. Do you see what I'm saying. you CHOOSE to want to do all 3, you need to put in some work for it, bruh.

Your suggestion would make that that everybody could instantly have (after a couple hours in skyreach) up to 8 (15 with crown slots) fully leveled characters, with all the skill points they need to do everything. I don't give a crap about 1-50, this is an argument for max level characters. There are some try-hards who care about "lowbie" pvp or BG's.

As you level, you would be able to instantly unlock all the crafting skills, as you decon gear, all the armor passives, all the mages guild/fighters guild/undaunted skill immediately upon leveling those up. That's the OP part. Not the redundant extremist argument where "I'm a level 3.. blah, blah, blah" and you don't have them leveled. Current system, you have to decide what's most important to you to unlock. Your system, you get those immediately upon leveling, because you already have the skill point queued up, waiting to be spent. Not OP? It is.

That's the op part you say? Getting all the skills as you level but starting the game with 810cp isn't cheap? Again compared to a game breaking concept like CP skill points are absolutely nothing lol. That is the point I've been trying to make and you won't accknowledge that point cause you know I'm 100% correct. Moves and classes get nerfed constantly because of CP not because skillpoints.

So again I will ask and you can ignore my question like everyone is dodging it on this forum because they know I'm right and won't admit it.

If a game changing mechanic like CP is account bound (something every toon needs as high as possible) then what makes it to overpowered to have skillpoints to use as you level? CP is unlocked at 3 and you can use 810 from level 3. So what's the difference please explain to me.

Speaking of dodging, still waiting to see your 240 point required build, because I'm calling ***.

In the meantime, it seems you've answered your own question. If, in comparison, skillpoints are "absolutely nothing" then it reinforces the lack of necessity for this.

Nerfs aren't a valid reason. That's what respecs are for. Heck, even having almost every possible skill in the game unlocked isn't even a valid reason. Again, that's what respecs are for.

You need one max level crafter, so after that you can get away with 9 points, maybe even 6, across Alchemy and Provisioning. (And Provisioning is really just a convenience.)

World lines? Soul magic, Vamp, WW, all of those advance in other ways, so take those out of the mix.

As previously mentioned, you can take probably half of the Alliance war points out of the picture, as they're provided by leveling Rank and you can't use them until then. Same for Undaunted.

It's already absurdly fast for a CP account to get another max level character. This is one of the very few things that regulate progress in the slightest amount.

So again I will ask and you can ignore my question, like everyone is dodging it.

Post the 240 point build, so it can get picked apart as to why it's absolute overkill and unnecessary on every subsequent character. I'm willing to bet you're spec'ing for mutiple content types, multiple roles, on a max crafting alt, and I bet there's still points you could do without.

So, post. We'll wait.

So let's go topic by topic here.

1) so you expect someone to pay absurd amounts of gold to keep respecing? Lol but I thought the whole point was to play how we wanted to play?

2) how is getting buffs from provisioning and alchemy not important? Tell an argonian that isn't because it enhances their passive

3) you are right the soul tree is trash. But seriously.the others are not important? Lololololololol!!!!! Vamps and WW are everywhere. You need most of their passives and moves (Templars use elusive mist, most tanks are vamps btw)

4) alliance war and support yes is something you need to level before you invest skill points on, but so isn't every other skill like in the game lol. But to a pvper in cyrodil those are all skills that help and I have all of my passives because it helps. Some of the moves even cross over into pve so they become important. Purge, barrier, rapid maneuver, vigor, caltrops, war horn are all moves used outside of pvp as well as inside pvp. And undaunted is important as well. You can gain free extra stats lol. These are all things you can have leveled up as you play the game no problem at all and they don't take that long.

We might as well tie in all of theirs guild/legermnd/psijic order/ fighters guild/ mage guild all have moves important depending on how you play/ what you want to do in the game as well.

So you want to know where all my points go.

I get my 3 class trees with passives as templar (moves are useful depending on situation to what I do)

Completely fill out swoard and shield with passives everything is useful.

Completely unlock resto staff and passives.

Light armor max. 9 into medium, 7 into heavy (undaunted passives)

Vamp 9 points for mist form bat swarm and passives

Fighters guild dawnbreaker and passives

Mages guild 14 skills in it including mostly passives

Undaunted all passives with orbs

I get all assault and support

My racial passives

And psijic order

Most of these skills are all changed in or out as a healer only. Different pve fights call for different load outs. Different moves are used in pvp depending if I play solo, small group, large group Zerg.

So have fun ripping my moves apart and tell me I don't "need them" and that I'm being an elitist because I worked my ass off for these moves lol. And that's not including me having all my crafting skills maxed on this too as well I put in the work to get this toon this way.

This is the most powerful argument yet against handing out 113 free skill points by making skyshards account bound.

Imagine every alternate character turning into one of these monsters after a few hours of running dolmens in the Alik'r.

Thanks for bringing this iron-clad proof.

By the way... this is a minor point... but I suggest wring 'skills' instead of 'moves'. 'Skills' is the common usage in ESO. I know it's nit-picking, but every time you say you've got to have all of your 'moves', the first thing that comes to mind is my friend's ten year-old son asking for money to buy the latest Fortnite dance move. Because he has to have all the right moves in Fortnite.

Lol yeah this is my main and I'm slowly working on making all my toons that powerful and getting them all these op "moves"

But again these skills have absolutely nothing compared to 810 CP. I see builds all over YouTube that are "DPS builds that have max spell resistance and max physical resistance while having 50k dps" yes those exists because of CP not because someone has op skill points lol. If you don't logically see what's wrong with a DPS or healer matching what a tank is suppose to do then that is a whole topic in itself.

So once again skill points don't break a game but you value you them more game breaking than the actual thing breaking the game glad we could have this talk using logic

Once again, each time you have posted you are giving a build that can do EVERYTHING, that you need the skill points for, and you don't think that you need to do any work to get that? You think that your brand new character needs to have all those skill points, so it can be just as OP with a few hours of dolmens/skyreach, as it reaches level 50. Yet your argument is that under level 50 characters are OP because they get CP. On one side you want to get your character to level 50 ASAP, on the other hand you're talking about OP below 50 characters... your logic is flawed. deeply flawed.

CP has always been account bound, that's how it was created, that's how it was designed. You are asking for a CHANGE with the skyshards, that's why there is a debate with this topic and not CP.

Most "lowbie" things (that are lowbie exclusive) are non-CP anyways, so your point is moot. Unless you are doing lowbie pvp in Vivec or something... then whatever, you're talking about a very specialized case.

My question was how many skill points to you need to do ONE thing (PVE, PVP, OR CRAFTING) NOT ALL THREE, but you ignored that as well. (Guess, what, it's pretty damn close to 100 skill points, which you will get just by leveling your character and doing the main quest line through ONE of the alliances!!!!) AND YOU CAN DO ANY ONE THING YOU WANT IN THE GAME, NO RESPECCING!!!!!! If you DO NOT WANT TO RESPEC because you want to do other things as well, then you can put in some time and effort and collect other skill points. It's such a novel idea, you have to do something to make your job easier.

I wonder what is so difficult to understand about this. (Again, I don't care about your "level 3" argument, that is a logical fallacy (by picking the extreme case)). You will most certainly be overpowered by the time you are level 30, as you will have more skill points to spend, as you can immediately unlock skills (where in normal progression you'd have to wait and pick what's most important). Your mentioning of CP is another logical fallacy, because we are not talking about CP here, this is about skyshards.

SugaComa wrote: »

Here is a question ....

What platform is everyone on ?

You see with all the add-ons pc have many are against things like this as they don't see the frustration us console players have where with every alt it's not just a ten minute map run to collect sky shards ... It can be hours or days even

Having a map on a phone or lap top helps ... But it's still a chore in comparison

So why not have a skyshards vendor in each zone so if you've collected it on a past character you can purchase the skyshards in that zone but only if you have them all "unlocked" with the cost rising incrementally for each zone.

Lastly though ... Please make all achievements account bound the achievements are for me not my toon

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

therift wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Abigail wrote: »

@Merlin13KAGL

And just like the individual I quoted, you also missed my prefacing comment about not wanting Skyshards to be account bound. I'll repeat: I do not want account-bound Skyshards.

And it was not a good analogy.

You pay for access to the game (and even that's not guaranteed - see ToS regarding downtime, announced or otherwise)

If you want a certain power level, you still have to put forth a minimum of effort.

How's this for a better analogy: You pay for access to a fenced parking lot. It's not guaranteed the lot will always be available (repairs). It's not guaranteed that you'll even get a spot if others beat you to it.

If you decide to get up 6 hours later than every one else. it's certainly not guaranteed you'll get front row by the exit simply because you've parked there once before. Just like the game, you're only paying for access. It's up to you how much much you get out of it vs the effort put in.

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Be great full? You know how long it takes to get 160+ skillpoints

Show me a build that requires 160 skillpoints straight out of the gate. I'll even give you the points for better decon so you don't have to swap characters for breakdown. In fact, taking off the full 30 in crafting (some of which is still overkill, you can get away with 9 without affecting viability) So, 130+ points remaining.

60 points for maxed, morphed, full passives on class skills (again, there are likely some that are optional for almost any build/role/class). That leaves 70+ 'needed.'

44 gets you two full weapon lines. Another 13 your main armor line.

That pretty much leaves you Alliance war (which will provide you some of the needed points) and Guilds (Undaunted will definitely provide you the needed points for all of them, if you do it right.).

Again, this is every skill, every passive, and in most cases, some can be disregarded.

In other cases, the difference is going to be initially minor, which means your character will be far from unplayable.

You can be viable in 50-100 hours per character, including points, and that's if you *** around.

I will get you later my pvp/pve build for templar I spent over 100 skill points before getting my crafts. I will count out exactly what I had to get later. Crafts alone is going to take 150+ skill points to max everything. I'm sorry that you think you can make a build using low skillpoints but I actually put effort into my toons. I play multiple toons with 150+ skill points each and I always find myself wishing I had more to slightly improve each toon. So don't tell me I can make a viable build with low sp (because you can make a cookie cutter build with low sp that doesn't do what my toon can.)

once again. You CHOOSE to want to do those extra things (PVE/PVP and Crafting). The point is that you only NEED about 100 skill points to make a character that is VIABLE (not ELITE, not the best, but VIABLE). If you want to be elite, if you want it to be the best, you need to put in some work.

I thought the post you quoted was very clear about a character being viable, but you took this to mean maxed out and can do anything, there's a fundamental disconnect there.

Bruh idk how you function with less. I play pvp and pve I need all of my moves in one way or another. If not all I'm doing is hurting the people that I play with. I just looked at my build and it takes 215 skill points for me to be able to swap moves on the go depending on the situation I'm put into on my Templar. Whether I pvp or do pve i shouldn't need to respec so I got them all. This does not include any crafting skill lines. Now I get you don't need to max out everything to be "casual" and by the way I am casual I play less than 4 hours on average a day. But just from what I've seen in this game on pvp if you don't do these you can struggle to do anything good. If you pve each one of these skill points could mean one less situational move you need depending on a group set up. Whie you don't need them it is certainly nice to have them. And I'm constantly making an argument comparing it to CP so here I'll give this way a try to break it down.

Now if people actually listen to our argument about being for it maybe people would collect everything on one toon so all their toons become strong as they level. Let's compare the game as you level.

Look I'm level 3 I just joined the server let's duel another level 3 because I have 810+CP and they have 0. Wow I'm so powerful.

Now my scenario. Look I'm level 3 I have 300 skill points. Let me assign these skill points right away! Wait what gives!? I can still only unlock 3 moves this is stupid. I thought I was going to be super powerful and elite!

Do you see the difference? Lol

Bruh... (really?). I'm not talking about being able to do everything... learn to read. simply by leveling (by questing, not skyreach grind), you can pve OR pvp OR craft. If you want to do pve AND pvp, or pve AND craft, or pvp AND craft, or all three, then you need to get extra skill points. Do you see what I'm saying. you CHOOSE to want to do all 3, you need to put in some work for it, bruh.

Your suggestion would make that that everybody could instantly have (after a couple hours in skyreach) up to 8 (15 with crown slots) fully leveled characters, with all the skill points they need to do everything. I don't give a crap about 1-50, this is an argument for max level characters. There are some try-hards who care about "lowbie" pvp or BG's.

As you level, you would be able to instantly unlock all the crafting skills, as you decon gear, all the armor passives, all the mages guild/fighters guild/undaunted skill immediately upon leveling those up. That's the OP part. Not the redundant extremist argument where "I'm a level 3.. blah, blah, blah" and you don't have them leveled. Current system, you have to decide what's most important to you to unlock. Your system, you get those immediately upon leveling, because you already have the skill point queued up, waiting to be spent. Not OP? It is.

That's the op part you say? Getting all the skills as you level but starting the game with 810cp isn't cheap? Again compared to a game breaking concept like CP skill points are absolutely nothing lol. That is the point I've been trying to make and you won't accknowledge that point cause you know I'm 100% correct. Moves and classes get nerfed constantly because of CP not because skillpoints.

So again I will ask and you can ignore my question like everyone is dodging it on this forum because they know I'm right and won't admit it.

If a game changing mechanic like CP is account bound (something every toon needs as high as possible) then what makes it to overpowered to have skillpoints to use as you level? CP is unlocked at 3 and you can use 810 from level 3. So what's the difference please explain to me.

Speaking of dodging, still waiting to see your 240 point required build, because I'm calling ***.

In the meantime, it seems you've answered your own question. If, in comparison, skillpoints are "absolutely nothing" then it reinforces the lack of necessity for this.

Nerfs aren't a valid reason. That's what respecs are for. Heck, even having almost every possible skill in the game unlocked isn't even a valid reason. Again, that's what respecs are for.

You need one max level crafter, so after that you can get away with 9 points, maybe even 6, across Alchemy and Provisioning. (And Provisioning is really just a convenience.)

World lines? Soul magic, Vamp, WW, all of those advance in other ways, so take those out of the mix.

As previously mentioned, you can take probably half of the Alliance war points out of the picture, as they're provided by leveling Rank and you can't use them until then. Same for Undaunted.

It's already absurdly fast for a CP account to get another max level character. This is one of the very few things that regulate progress in the slightest amount.

So again I will ask and you can ignore my question, like everyone is dodging it.

Post the 240 point build, so it can get picked apart as to why it's absolute overkill and unnecessary on every subsequent character. I'm willing to bet you're spec'ing for mutiple content types, multiple roles, on a max crafting alt, and I bet there's still points you could do without.

So, post. We'll wait.

So let's go topic by topic here.

1) so you expect someone to pay absurd amounts of gold to keep respecing? Lol but I thought the whole point was to play how we wanted to play?

2) how is getting buffs from provisioning and alchemy not important? Tell an argonian that isn't because it enhances their passive

3) you are right the soul tree is trash. But seriously.the others are not important? Lololololololol!!!!! Vamps and WW are everywhere. You need most of their passives and moves (Templars use elusive mist, most tanks are vamps btw)

4) alliance war and support yes is something you need to level before you invest skill points on, but so isn't every other skill like in the game lol. But to a pvper in cyrodil those are all skills that help and I have all of my passives because it helps. Some of the moves even cross over into pve so they become important. Purge, barrier, rapid maneuver, vigor, caltrops, war horn are all moves used outside of pvp as well as inside pvp. And undaunted is important as well. You can gain free extra stats lol. These are all things you can have leveled up as you play the game no problem at all and they don't take that long.

We might as well tie in all of theirs guild/legermnd/psijic order/ fighters guild/ mage guild all have moves important depending on how you play/ what you want to do in the game as well.

So you want to know where all my points go.

I get my 3 class trees with passives as templar (moves are useful depending on situation to what I do)

Completely fill out swoard and shield with passives everything is useful.

Completely unlock resto staff and passives.

Light armor max. 9 into medium, 7 into heavy (undaunted passives)

Vamp 9 points for mist form bat swarm and passives

Fighters guild dawnbreaker and passives

Mages guild 14 skills in it including mostly passives

Undaunted all passives with orbs

I get all assault and support

My racial passives

And psijic order

Most of these skills are all changed in or out as a healer only. Different pve fights call for different load outs. Different moves are used in pvp depending if I play solo, small group, large group Zerg.

So have fun ripping my moves apart and tell me I don't "need them" and that I'm being an elitist because I worked my ass off for these moves lol. And that's not including me having all my crafting skills maxed on this too as well I put in the work to get this toon this way.

This is the most powerful argument yet against handing out 113 free skill points by making skyshards account bound.

Imagine every alternate character turning into one of these monsters after a few hours of running dolmens in the Alik'r.

Thanks for bringing this iron-clad proof.

By the way... this is a minor point... but I suggest wring 'skills' instead of 'moves'. 'Skills' is the common usage in ESO. I know it's nit-picking, but every time you say you've got to have all of your 'moves', the first thing that comes to mind is my friend's ten year-old son asking for money to buy the latest Fortnite dance move. Because he has to have all the right moves in Fortnite.

Lol yeah this is my main and I'm slowly working on making all my toons that powerful and getting them all these op "moves"

But again these skills have absolutely nothing compared to 810 CP. I see builds all over YouTube that are "DPS builds that have max spell resistance and max physical resistance while having 50k dps" yes those exists because of CP not because someone has op skill points lol. If you don't logically see what's wrong with a DPS or healer matching what a tank is suppose to do then that is a whole topic in itself.

So once again skill points don't break a game but you value you them more game breaking than the actual thing breaking the game glad we could have this talk using logic

Once again, each time you have posted you are giving a build that can do EVERYTHING, that you need the skill points for, and you don't think that you need to do any work to get that? You think that your brand new character needs to have all those skill points, so it can be just as OP with a few hours of dolmens/skyreach, as it reaches level 50. Yet your argument is that under level 50 characters are OP because they get CP. On one side you want to get your character to level 50 ASAP, on the other hand you're talking about OP below 50 characters... your logic is flawed. deeply flawed.

CP has always been account bound, that's how it was created, that's how it was designed. You are asking for a CHANGE with the skyshards, that's why there is a debate with this topic and not CP.

Most "lowbie" things (that are lowbie exclusive) are non-CP anyways, so your point is moot. Unless you are doing lowbie pvp in Vivec or something... then whatever, you're talking about a very specialized case.

My question was how many skill points to you need to do ONE thing (PVE, PVP, OR CRAFTING) NOT ALL THREE, but you ignored that as well. (Guess, what, it's pretty damn close to 100 skill points, which you will get just by leveling your character and doing the main quest line through ONE of the alliances!!!!) AND YOU CAN DO ANY ONE THING YOU WANT IN THE GAME, NO RESPECCING!!!!!! If you DO NOT WANT TO RESPEC because you want to do other things as well, then you can put in some time and effort and collect other skill points. It's such a novel idea, you have to do something to make your job easier.

I wonder what is so difficult to understand about this. (Again, I don't care about your "level 3" argument, that is a logical fallacy (by picking the extreme case)). You will most certainly be overpowered by the time you are level 30, as you will have more skill points to spend, as you can immediately unlock skills (where in normal progression you'd have to wait and pick what's most important). Your mentioning of CP is another logical fallacy, because we are not talking about CP here, this is about skyshards.

Lol I've stated several times about toons with Max stats cause of CP that isn't at level 3. That is clearly end game where your toon is a god. Stop saying what I said many posts ago and read all my latest post I was trying to demonstrate CP in another way that you won't even look at. Look if you seriously think a toon with that many skill points is "op" remove all your CP until you only have 160 and fight a pvp match. See the difference with only have skill points. Then do the same reverse so you barely have skill points on a toon but 810 CP tell me which is more powerful? It doesn't matter if your level 3 or CP 810 ONCE YOU HIT 50 IT RAISES YOU TO 810 in one second. So again skill points are t over powered CP is lol.

Skill points won't give me max resistances but CP will remember that.

SugaComa wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

So let's go topic by topic here.

1) so you expect someone to pay absurd amounts of gold to keep respecing? Lol but I thought the whole point was to play how we wanted to play?

Anyone that's been here any amount of time has shelled out absurd amounts of gold to respec. When they make your current morph unusable, even just one, you either cease using that skill or you respec.
They even changed so you could morph-only respec, and even more recently improved the UI for said respec.

This doesn't impede play as you want. This is play as they change the game. Choosing to respec or not respec based on nerfs or design changes has absolutely nothing to do with shared skillpoints.

2) how is getting buffs from provisioning and alchemy not important? Tell an argonian that isn't because it enhances their passive

You need 3 points for medicinal use on an alt. You don't need the remaining points after you've hit L50. You can't substitute this for potions without 3 reduction glyphs, so these are reasonably necessary.

Buffs from provisioning simply prolong food. They are a convenience only, meaning without them, you'll simply go through food more often. There will never be a gap as with alchemy, so these are optional at the cost of a little more gold.

3) you are right the soul tree is trash. But seriously.the others are not important? Lololololololol!!!!! Vamps and WW are everywhere. You need most of their passives and moves (Templars use elusive mist, most tanks are vamps btw)

• 11 points for Vamp (2 passives are useless, one is only needed if you plan to share bites, therefore, optional)
• 21 points for WW (again, bite is optional)

Vamp levels (too easily) with XP. WW levels only with kills in form, therefore it's not going to be as simple as placing points as you level. As such, both of these already require a certain amount of additional gameplay to achieve. You can also use this time to acquire additional points.

4) alliance war and support yes is something you need to level before you invest skill points on, but so isn't every other skill like in the game lol. But to a pvper in cyrodil those are all skills that help and I have all of my passives because it helps. Some of the moves even cross over into pve so they become important. Purge, barrier, rapid maneuver, vigor, caltrops, war horn are all moves used outside of pvp as well as inside pvp.

Again, we're talking about alts here. You won't have the option of placing points into Alliance War skills until you earn ranks in the Alliance War. This, too, takes separate commitment whether via the War, proper, or BG's. This also provides you skillpoints for each rank you make, so it takes care of a good potion of itself. Equally, you don't need every skill there. Some are inherently Stam based, others Mag based, so you won't need every single skill on a single character.

You won't find most magicka characters using Vigor or Caltrops. You won't see too many Stamblades using Magicka Det.

And undaunted is important as well. You can gain free extra stats lol. These are all things you can have leveled up as you play the game no problem at all and they don't take that long.

This is your worst justification yet. Unless you're getting Rep from the Daily, Undaunted takes care of itself several times over. It's another line that does not advance the normal way, so needing these points before it's possible to even unlock them is absurd.

Every single 4-man group dungeon has a full skillpoint quest associated with it. Run each non-DLC one time, on normal, and it's skillpoints for days. Additionally, you don't need to unlock every single Undaunted skill on every alt, probably two for a healer, 4 for a tank, plus the two passives (which are still good even at half strength).

We might as well choose to tie in all of theirs guild/legermnd/psijic order/ fighters guild/ mage guild all have moves important depending on how you play/ what you want to do in the game as well.

Fixed it for you.

TG, DB, and Legerdemain are absolutely optional lines. Two of those provide skillpoints as you do the main line quests. WGT aside, when's the last time you have to pick a lock in battle?

FG and MG also don't require all unlocks and are leveled via alternate means - again, these passives won't be available until they are unlocked anyway. Scouring for lorebooks is far more drawn out than skillpoints ever have been.

Psijic also limited use, not all points necessary. It also provides you points as you level the line, again, in a non-standard way.

I tired of this. Most of this was already covered in my previous post but we'll go through this one more time.

So you want to know where all my points go.

I get my 3 class trees with passives as templar (moves are useful depending on situation to what I do)

Completely fill out swoard and shield with passives everything is useful.

Completely unlock resto staff and passives.

Covered previously. 60 points maxes and morphs all class lines, many of which will have optional skills/passives depending on the class and role.

44 for all maxed/morphed on two weapon lines, again, some of which can probably be left out. (Shield charge/Focused charge is redundant, as one example.)

Light armor max. 9 into medium, 7 into heavy (undaunted passives)

This is overkill. 13 points for your main armor line. Taking every single passive in the other lines is not remotely necessary. You're only wearing 5 pieces of one armor type at a time. Do you really think the <52 equivalent regen you're getting from from 1 pc's worth of Constitution makes a difference? I've yet to see even hybrids use all three armor types (5 pieces worth) in combat.

Vamp 9 points for mist form bat swarm and passives

Covered above.

Fighters guild dawnbreaker and passives

Mages guild 14 skills in it including mostly passives

Undaunted all passives with orbs

Overkill, overkill, overkill. Not even on dual role do you need every one of these.

I get all assault and support

Covered above and unnecessary. There are either/or selections in both lines.

My racial passives

And psijic order

Covered above, skillpoints provided by the line.

Most of these skills are all changed in or out as a healer only. Different pve fights call for different load outs. Different moves are used in pvp depending if I play solo, small group, large group Zerg.

So have fun ripping my moves apart and tell me I don't "need them" and that I'm being an elitist because I worked my ass off for these moves lol. And that's not including me having all my crafting skills maxed on this too as well I put in the work to get this toon this way.

@Kidgangster101 You're trying to max your character, which is fine for your main character. You aren't using every skill and passives effectively on any single build, therefore you're placing lots of points where points are not needed.

Again, this is your option on your main.

Crafting (on alts) is optional. You need one max crafter in any given craft. One. You can even split it up between alts if you're short on points initially, but it's not necessary for every alt to have all points unlocked in every craft. (Max the line all you like, you don't need to place a single point ever to do this.)

This absolutely does not need to be a requirement or necessity on follow up alts, which is what this thread is all about.

If you wish to be ready for any scenario by having everything unlocked, you may do so, but you should also expect to have to earn that each and every time.

So many of the passives give very minor boosts that do not prevent one from being initially viable. If it did, there would be no low levels running dungeons or doing PvP of any kind.

So in the end:

60 points for class skills
44 points for two full weapon lines
13 points for main armor
6 optional points for alt armor (most builds)
3 points for Alchemy passive
9 points for Racial
4 points for Undaunted passives


That's 139 points, leaving World line (WW/Vamp), some Guild lines, and Alliance War remaining, and you could still get away with less and be only slightly less effective (1-2% here or there) which will have minimal effect on an alt until you take the time to finish off Min/Max'ing, which is what you're choosing to do.

You counter those with the ease of obtaining skillpoints Hint: Skyshards are not the most efficient way. and it's still very reasonable to have an effective character of any race, build, class, and role within a reasonable amount of time.

How do I know?

Almost 5 years of playtime, 14 maxed alts between two NA accounts, 2 alts between 2 EU accounts, with ~1200/600/300/200 CP's respectively.

Every character I take to CP level maxes every craft, and eventually maxes every weapon line. I've done this since 1.5, well before race change options, so any character could be a respec away from 'viable,' regardless which way the Dev combat change blows.

The need for this on an alt from the word "Go" is absolutely nonexistent.

So what I understand from this is you have no real world commitments and as such you believe every other players should be spending ever hour grinding it out as you have.

You object to the fact that options allow us all to play as we want, allows done of us to cut corners where play time is restricted while others can grind it out if they so choose .

Now I know you will pick up on the phrase cut corners ... The key here is to put restrictions or a cost so that it can't be abused but allies it to be earned through game play of which the individual enjoys having already played through the game

I have played a single character for so long n enjoyed it all the way through I'm now wanting get all the achievements ... My problem is the character is unable to get all the achievements cos every character is gimped in some way

I created ALTs to get these acheivements but on finding I have to do so much of the content I don't enjoy to get a viable build I parked them and they pretty much remain in unplayed limbo because of this