Skyshards account bound

TheTombstone · November 2018

People keep saying we want hand outs. That isn't what I am asking. You are STILL doing the work. Just less times. Whether it's 1 time, or 5 times, you still do the work to unlock an area of shards for other characters.

Someone mentioned loot sharing (I assume being able to trade loot after a boss kill) being a thing that helps reduce grind.... No. That isn't what that is for. That's for "This item is useless for me, anyone else want it?" Just about every MMO has that. WoW, SWTOR, etc etc.

Iluvrien · November 2018

TheTombstone wrote: »

People keep saying we want hand outs. That isn't what I am asking. You are STILL doing the work. Just less times. Whether it's 1 time, or 5 times, you still do the work to unlock an area of shards for other characters.

Someone mentioned loot sharing (I assume being able to trade loot after a boss kill) being a thing that helps reduce grind.... No. That isn't what that is for. That's for "This item is useless for me, anyone else want it?" Just about every MMO has that. WoW, SWTOR, etc etc.

You are only doing the work if you regard characters as interchangeable templates. If you regard them as separate entities then you are not doing the work. They are. And they are doing it individually.

Sylvermynx · November 2018

Iluvrien wrote: »

TheTombstone wrote: »

People keep saying we want hand outs. That isn't what I am asking. You are STILL doing the work. Just less times. Whether it's 1 time, or 5 times, you still do the work to unlock an area of shards for other characters.

Someone mentioned loot sharing (I assume being able to trade loot after a boss kill) being a thing that helps reduce grind.... No. That isn't what that is for. That's for "This item is useless for me, anyone else want it?" Just about every MMO has that. WoW, SWTOR, etc etc.

You are only doing the work if you regard characters as interchangeable templates. If you regard them as separate entities then you are not doing the work. They are. And they are doing it individually.

Yes. My girls are themselves. They have no concept of "she got that shard it's why I have it too". And that works for me.

I do have to say again that if this was something that you could toggle, that would be fine with me. I wouldn't toggle it on - because I prefer to pick up the shards as I run across them in game. But for those with less time than I have for playing an MMO - yeah. That would work for me.

TheShadowScout · November 2018

TheTombstone wrote: »

People keep saying we want hand outs. That isn't what I am asking. You are STILL doing the work. Just less times. Whether it's 1 time, or 5 times, you still do the work to unlock an area of shards for other characters...

That's like saying you want to be paid for a weeks work even tho you only showed up one day. Try it with your boss sometime... "Hey, I already did the work on monday..." you could say, and then demand you get the usual weekly pay. See where that gets you...

Another example I like is painting. If you paint one room in your house, are the others suddenly done as well because "you already did the work"? No?
Or if you prefer "doing the work with your character" - if you take one of your pets to the vet for the annual rabies vaccinations, are the others done with it as well? No?
See?
If you don't do it on that character... it ain't done on that character.

And as I keep mentioning, there also isn't a toggle to make riding training account wide... instead the people at ZOS sell the option to bypass a part of the game with rewards that affect your performance.
And if they ever will listen to the people lacking patience for skyshard huntings... that's how they are most likely to react, with selling the bypass option in the crown store (and more likley then not, equally overpriced as the crown store riding lessons!)

Because that's how it usually ends up in an MMORPG. You either spend the time, or you spend the money. That benefits the company who made the game and keep it running.
And ZOS already gave us more then many such games in account wide stuff (mail, bank, dyes, the whole frigging champion system...); its really greedy to ask for yet more, y'know...

Abigail · November 2018

@TheShadowScout

It happens that I don't want skyshards account bound; however, I still find your argument specious, and here's why.

This is a game, not work. We pay to play it, not the other way around.

Find a better analogy, please.

TheTombstone · November 2018

With what @TheShadowScout said, that is a logical fallacy. Comparing two unlike things. I view the game as someone who min-maxes things. All characters are separate people, in Story. Not in actuality. In actuality, they are one person, repeating the same things again and again. Which I'm okay with, when it comes to quests. Not going to find skyshards again and again.

TheShadowScout · November 2018

Abigail wrote: »

This is a game, not work... -snip- Find a better analogy, please.

Already added that one with the painting and pets. Want some more?
If you wash one shirt, are all your other dirty shirts clean now because you "already did the work once"?
If you clean one window, are all your other windows clean now because you "already did the work once"?
If you read one book, do you know all your other books as well now because you "already did the work once"?
If you sharpen one pencil, are all your other dull pencils nice and sharpened now because you "already did the work once"?
If you finish one days homework, is all your other weeks worth of homework donw now because you "already did the work once"?
If you cook one dinner, will you find a freshly cooked dinner the rest of the week also because you "already did the work once"?

Of if you want a game analogy...
If you win one race, have you won all other races you might run as well because you "already did the work once"?
If you get one highscore, have you highscores on all the other games as well because you "already did the work once"?
If you win one chess game, have you won every other chess game you play as well because you "already did the work once"?
If you win one soccer match, have you won all the other soccer matches you play also because you "already did the work once"?

Abigail wrote: »

We pay to play it, not the other way around.

And I keep mentioning that too.
That at best, the powers that be will let people -pay- to bypass the skyshard hunting. Which I would have no issue with, just like I don't argue against crown store riding lessons.
Though I don't think that is what the "gimme crowd" here wants, is it now?

TheTombstone wrote: »

I view the game as someone who min-maxes things. All characters are separate people, in Story. Not in actuality. In actuality, they are one person, repeating the same things again and again..

...on different characters.
Which are just like... different rooms you paint, different pets you visit the vet with, different shirts you wear, different windows you clean, et cetera.
You get the idea, right?
Or if you want a more sporty analogy, different racecars you drive through the same racing circuit. If you get one of them a nifty new nitro injector or better shock absorbers, that does nothing for the other racecars you might own, right?

Or even ESO analogies...
If you get one character to level 50, are all your other characters level 50 as well because you "already did the work once"?
If you clear a dungeon on one character, have the others cleared the dungeon as well because you "already did the work once"?
If you train your riding to 60/60/60 on one character, have all your others maxed it as well because you "already did the work once"?
If you max your guilds on one character, have all your other characters guilds maxed as well because you "already did the work once"?
If you morph and max all your skills on one character, have all your other characters maxed them as well because you "already did the work once"?
If you research all the traints on your crafting character, have all other characters full research as well because you "already did the work once"?

TheTombstone wrote: »

...Which I'm okay with, when it comes to quests. Not going to find skyshards again and again.

And -THAT- is the only proper statement here.
Yeah, YOU are unwilling to spend the effort for the benefit. And will likely want to argue for account wide riding as well, and account wide research, and account wide... everything? (or at least everything you cannot grind easily, I presume)
So?
If you care enough, you will spend the extra effort for this or that character of yours.
If you don't care enough, you will have this or that character of yours do without.

The rest is just people trying to rule-lawyer an argument how they somehow deserve to gain the additional benefit without the additional effort.

And I say thee nay!

AlnilamE · November 2018

TheTombstone wrote: »

With what @TheShadowScout said, that is a logical fallacy. Comparing two unlike things. I view the game as someone who min-maxes things. All characters are separate people, in Story. Not in actuality. In actuality, they are one person, repeating the same things again and again. Which I'm okay with, when it comes to quests. Not going to find skyshards again and again.

Then get your skill points from quests. And if you run across a skyshard on the way (which you will) grab that too.

Saying "I already did the work" is like buying a pizza and expecting the next 14 to be free. Mind you, you may be able to get a deal where you buy one pizza and get the second one free, but saying that you bought one pizza and therefore the other 14 pizzas should be yours too is a bit much.

Which is why I suggested getting the Tamriel Skyshard Hunter achievement 5 times to unlock it. That would be less than a middle ground, as we can have up to 15 characters.

TheTombstone wrote: »

Someone mentioned loot sharing (I assume being able to trade loot after a boss kill) being a thing that helps reduce grind.... No. That isn't what that is for. That's for "This item is useless for me, anyone else want it?" Just about every MMO has that. WoW, SWTOR, etc etc.

And for the longest time, ESO didn't have it for a number of items (ie, Boss helms, Master Weapons and some of the unique dungeon sets). BDO has no direct trading with other players at all except for potions and elixirs (which then become character bound). I don't know if SWL has any kind of direct trading outside of their auction house.

So yes, being able to trade gear was intended to reduce the grind. As was making helm drops guaranteed on vet. Before that, I had friends who ran a dungeon almost 100 times before they dropped the helm they needed, while watching their friends get it several times when they didn't need it.

Anyway, ESO was designed in such a way that each character would earn their skill points individually. They are fairly easy to obtain in sufficient number that you can make a non-master crafter character in a reasonable amount of time. They gave us 8 character slots at launch, so creating alts was already taken into account. Having the game suddenly become a "do it once, do it forever" game would be very detrimental to the health of the game.

karekiz · November 2018

TheShadowScout wrote: »

That's like saying you want to be paid for a weeks work even tho you only showed up one day. Try it with your boss sometime... "Hey, I already did the work on monday..." you could say, and then demand you get the usual weekly pay. See where that gets you...
Another example I like is painting. If you paint one room in your house, are the others suddenly done as well because "you already did the work"? No?
Or if you prefer "doing the work with your character" - if you take one of your pets to the vet for the annual rabies vaccinations, are the others done with it as well? No?
See?
If you don't do it on that character... it ain't done on that character.

The minute someone brings in "real life" to backup a mechanic in a video game that is in no way striving for "realism" it means they basically forfeit the debate. What you just described is CP accountwide. Which is included. How does my BRAND new character know what took months of my main to accomplish?

Want to know how? Its a game, thus real life doesn't factor.

NoMoreChillies · November 2018

I want to play the game my way.
Not spend wasted time gathering Skyshards ive already done before.

Please just add toggle and make everyone happy. Keybinds and guild chat colors too.

Quality of Life.

tmbrinks · November 2018

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

I want to play the game my way.
Not spend wasted time gathering Skyshards ive already done before.

Please just add toggle and make everyone happy. Keybinds and guild chat colors too.

Quality of Life.

This thread has proven, that this statement is unequivocally untrue. (my emphasis in bold) Yet, this continues to be stated over, and over, and over, and over again

ookami007 · November 2018

Cillion3117 wrote: »

That takes away the fun of discovery.

There is no discovery after 62 characters... Make it an option.

Sylvermynx · November 2018

ookami007 wrote: »

Cillion3117 wrote: »

That takes away the fun of discovery.

There is no discovery after 62 characters... Make it an option.

Up front, I'd be fine with it as an option. And I'd never use it.

I had 70 girls in WoW. I discovered the entire world again on every one of them. I had 50 girls in RIFT, ditto. Thing is, I LIKE running around rediscovering stuff on every new girl.

Now, that said, I have to admit that I'm retired, games are my hobby, and I have literally unlimited time to play every day. So, for those who are not so blessed, I think the option would be a really good thing.

sulima · November 2018

tmbrinks wrote: »

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

I want to play the game my way.
Not spend wasted time gathering Skyshards ive already done before.

Please just add toggle and make everyone happy. Keybinds and guild chat colors too.

Quality of Life.

This thread has proven, that this statement is unequivocally untrue. (my emphasis in bold) Yet, this continues to be stated over, and over, and over, and over again

https://youtu.be/MG6rmqG0wAM

tmbrinks · November 2018

sulima wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

I want to play the game my way.
Not spend wasted time gathering Skyshards ive already done before.

Please just add toggle and make everyone happy. Keybinds and guild chat colors too.

Quality of Life.

This thread has proven, that this statement is unequivocally untrue. (my emphasis in bold) Yet, this continues to be stated over, and over, and over, and over again

https://youtu.be/MG6rmqG0wAM

that gif does a great job of describing the people who want account bound skyshards... and then horse lessons, and then skill leveling, and then ... I'm glad you're stating to see that!

sulima · November 2018

tmbrinks wrote: »

sulima wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

I want to play the game my way.
Not spend wasted time gathering Skyshards ive already done before.

Please just add toggle and make everyone happy. Keybinds and guild chat colors too.

Quality of Life.

This thread has proven, that this statement is unequivocally untrue. (my emphasis in bold) Yet, this continues to be stated over, and over, and over, and over again

https://youtu.be/MG6rmqG0wAM

that gif does a great job of describing the people who want account bound skyshards... and then horse lessons, and then skill leveling, and then ... I'm glad you're stating to see that!

Reistr_the_Unbroken · November 2018

tmbrinks wrote: »

sulima wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

I want to play the game my way.
Not spend wasted time gathering Skyshards ive already done before.

Please just add toggle and make everyone happy. Keybinds and guild chat colors too.

Quality of Life.

This thread has proven, that this statement is unequivocally untrue. (my emphasis in bold) Yet, this continues to be stated over, and over, and over, and over again

https://youtu.be/MG6rmqG0wAM

that gif does a great job of describing the people who want account bound skyshards... and then horse lessons, and then skill leveling, and then ... I'm glad you're stating to see that!

You really didn’t read anything the Op said and just assumed and pulled crap out of your *** didn’t you?

AlnilamE · November 2018

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

I want to play the game my way.
Not spend wasted time gathering Skyshards ive already done before.

I want to play the game my way. Not spend wasted time trudging through Maelstrom Arena trying to get a destruction staff for my build.

(At least with skyshards, you get a fixed reward for the time invested).

Keybinds and guild chat colors too.

Quality of Life.

Now this would be a quality of life improvement.

karekiz wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

That's like saying you want to be paid for a weeks work even tho you only showed up one day. Try it with your boss sometime... "Hey, I already did the work on monday..." you could say, and then demand you get the usual weekly pay. See where that gets you...
Another example I like is painting. If you paint one room in your house, are the others suddenly done as well because "you already did the work"? No?
Or if you prefer "doing the work with your character" - if you take one of your pets to the vet for the annual rabies vaccinations, are the others done with it as well? No?
See?
If you don't do it on that character... it ain't done on that character.

The minute someone brings in "real life" to backup a mechanic in a video game that is in no way striving for "realism" it means they basically forfeit the debate. What you just described is CP accountwide. Which is included. How does my BRAND new character know what took months of my main to accomplish?

Want to know how? Its a game, thus real life doesn't factor.

But design intent does. And skyshards were designed to be character bound. That's why they are very easy to acquire.

Meanwhile, other things are designed to be account bound, like champion points, and they take longer to accrue and each point has a very small effect.

If they ever decided to make skyshards account bound they would have to change it so that you need to collect 12 or 15 skyshards to get a skill point, which would be detrimental to the people who only want to run one character.

As others have stated, there are many ways to get skill points in the game. You get about half of what you need for an alt just leveling them to 50. If you went and gathered skyshards/ran dungeons/PvP'd/did public dungeons while leveling your character instead of running around Alik'r like a headless chicken, skill points would not be a problem by the time you get to 50. Give it a try.

Exalted_Goose · November 2018

I'm in two minds about this. On the one hand, I don't have much time to play - the Skyshard/Skill Point grind usually ends up discouraging me from making and levelling new characters purely because, when I do get to log on, I'd like to play the game, instead of mindlessly tear across Tamriel looking for little blue rocks. Likewise, I also agree with the argument that it's per character; it's the characters finding the Skyshards and becoming stronger. Moreover, I guess I kinda appreciate the Skill Points more - I've done the entire grind on my Stamblade and Stamden, and when I look at their fully-levelled, fully-skilled out trees, I feel like I've properly earned it, and accomplished something just through persistence.

I'd say keep it as it is. It's a royal pain to do, but if you set aside a couple of hours, with max mount speed + Rapid Maneuver you can usually punch out 2-3 zones at least. With a few Skill Points from quests/early AvA ranks, that's usually enough to get you at least somewhere, so you can do something and come back to the grind later. Equally, sometimes when I don't feel like doing anything, I'll grab a coffee or beer and talk with my mates over Discord while farming Skyshards, and it's surprising how quickly you can get through zones when you're focused on something else.

I sympathise a lot with those who want it account-bound, though. Cogent arguments on both sides.

tmbrinks · November 2018

sulima wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

sulima wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

I want to play the game my way.
Not spend wasted time gathering Skyshards ive already done before.

Please just add toggle and make everyone happy. Keybinds and guild chat colors too.

Quality of Life.

This thread has proven, that this statement is unequivocally untrue. (my emphasis in bold) Yet, this continues to be stated over, and over, and over, and over again

https://youtu.be/MG6rmqG0wAM

that gif does a great job of describing the people who want account bound skyshards... and then horse lessons, and then skill leveling, and then ... I'm glad you're stating to see that!

wow... you must have a lot of free time. probably could of gotten some of those skyshards while you were searching for the "perfect" gif

I honestly don't get the "Oliver" gif in response to mine... since he's begging for a handout... much like all the people asking for these to be account bound. lol

tmbrinks · November 2018

Just so I actually post something on topic. As several others have said. If the reward that you get is worth your time, you'll find the motivation to do it. I didn't level up all my characters at once, because getting all the skill points needed to make them all into crafters took some work. But I (AND ME ALONE) determined that the effort I would have to spend was worth the time to get those skill points (now, I have more materials than I know what to do with, so I sell, and can buy things that I don't want to grind for) I'm glad I put in the time to level up my characters, as I am now reaping the rewards, it wasn't the epitome of exciting, riveting, edge-of-my-seat content to do so... but I deemed the effort worthy of my time.

Most here are asking for the rewards without putting in the effort. If you find the reward worthwhile, you'll do it. If you don't, you won't. Judging by the responses from many, the effort of getting skill points isn't worth it to you. SO DON'T, nobody is making you get them...

Want to play around with new characters, WITHOUT the work... go onto the PTS.
Don't want to do the skyshard grind... DON'T DO IT.... do dungeons, delves, etc...
Don't want to do ANY of them... DON'T DO IT... but I'd suggest you find another game... this isn't the one for you... pick one of the other thousand games that are out there.

Silver_Strider · November 2018

I suppose removing skill points in general and just unlocking passives/skills as you level a skill line is out of the question then?

Taleof2Cities · November 2018

Silver_Strider wrote: »

I suppose removing skill points in general and just unlocking passives/skills as you level a skill line is out of the question then?

Not as much of a handout as account-wide skyshards ... but still a handout.

You also have to consider leveling up skills that you would never use just to get the skill points.

Tandor · November 2018

Silver_Strider wrote: »

I suppose removing skill points in general and just unlocking passives/skills as you level a skill line is out of the question then?

There are plenty of MMOs that do just that, but that in itself is no reason for ESO to have to switch to such a system.

Merlin13KAGL · November 2018

Abigail wrote: »

@TheShadowScout

It happens that I don't want skyshards account bound; however, I still find your argument specious, and here's why.

This is a game, not work. We pay to play it, not the other way around.

Find a better analogy, please.

Which means you've no deadlines, no hurries, no need for the expedition of your character's progression.

You've decided there's some needed level. You decide if it worth attaining or not.

This is still a non-issue.

EDIT: It's not like this game has permadeath. The only thing you ever have to reaquire are stolen goods or a little bit of gold. Your progress does not get reset.

Abigail · November 2018

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Abigail wrote: »

@TheShadowScout

It happens that I don't want skyshards account bound; however, I still find your argument specious, and here's why.

This is a game, not work. We pay to play it, not the other way around.

Find a better analogy, please.

Which means you've no deadlines, no hurries, no need for the expedition of your character's progression.

You've decided there's some needed level. You decide if it worth attaining or not.

This is still a non-issue.

EDIT: It's not like this game has permadeath. The only thing you ever have to reaquire are stolen goods or a little bit of gold. Your progress does not get reset.

*shrugs*

Haven't a clue what you're trying to say.

BigM · November 2018

Why not just ask for a completed character?

Skyshards and many other things you need to work on with a character is part of the whole game.

Also, riding skills need to be worked on as the character progresses.

But maybe Zenimax should put something in store so you can get a complete character. Maybe charge 100-200 bucks for that. Then you can say I have a top character and logout to go play another game. 🤦‍♂️

Kidgangster101 · November 2018

If it's a huge issue to share skyshards why do we share champion points? All my toons Leach off the work my Templar does. So what you really want to make the game grindy is to split those up as well. Hell let's make it so we can't share gear too! Why can I craft gold gear and give it to my alt? They did no work for it

have fun grinding 800+ CP Everytime you want a new toon

SugaComa · November 2018

Iluvrien wrote: »

TheTombstone wrote: »

People keep saying we want hand outs. That isn't what I am asking. You are STILL doing the work. Just less times. Whether it's 1 time, or 5 times, you still do the work to unlock an area of shards for other characters.

Someone mentioned loot sharing (I assume being able to trade loot after a boss kill) being a thing that helps reduce grind.... No. That isn't what that is for. That's for "This item is useless for me, anyone else want it?" Just about every MMO has that. WoW, SWTOR, etc etc.

You are only doing the work if you regard characters as interchangeable templates. If you regard them as separate entities then you are not doing the work. They are. And they are doing it individually.

Then why not allow the player to decide ...

When creating a character give two options

New character ... As is now
New linked character ... Links to existing character ... Both share everything.

I know I would probably play more on other characters with a linked option

No worry about accidentally reading a motif on the wrong character ... Allows those of us with limited play time the chance to play other characters n still chase those achievements while also allowing others to play the way it is now

Add in the option to reset the world quests so they can be replayed and maybe up the difficulty to make having a linked character interesting

richo262 · November 2018

Many MMO's do fast tracking as they get bigger. I personally don't ever want to see a 'start at level 50' or something like that.

I do not mind the idea of certain content becoming account bound. Content that most people would NOT repeat anyway.

Have another panel where the 'Story' page is that lets you accept quests, for account quests. Where the player can sync the progress, or repeat quests at will.

Museum quests - The search and find quests, have an option to account bound their completion or their progress.
(Thieves guild stolen items, assassin guild hunts, Morrowind tombs, Mirk tablets, etc)

Prologue quests - These are simply advertisements for the next DLC.

Housing quests / achievements - Housing is inherently an account wide addition to the game.

As for Sky shards, having a toon start up with all shards would be a bit pointless, I appreciate the need for leveling, questing, doing dungeons, doing public dungeons, leveling alliance war to get skills. I think a good middle ground would be, you can use shards to PURCHASE the passive skills in a skill trees account wide. This means a new toon DOES NOT start with a massive amount of skill points.

They start as normal, but as they level a particular tree, if the passives in that skill line have been purchased by another toon using account wide shards then those passives will automatically unlock as the new toon progresses.

Pros - Convenience of automatically unlocking the skills as you play.
Cons - Any shard used to purchase the passive skills in the tree cannot be collected, meaning the new toon will actually have a difficult time finding additional skill points through shards, which is a good cost IMO.