While i have been addicted to Speed Potions for the last several years (seriously - i can't remember when i last used any potion that did not give speed), it seems fair to nerf overall.
Speed Potions should have same duration as other Major effects. Like Vitality etc. So thats done now. Good.
Swift is also in a good spot now. Totally overperformed.
Only problem to me right now, is the duration of skills. All Major Expedition skills should last 10 seconds (+/- depending on other benefits of skill). 4 Seconds duration is laughable.
BUT. I guess it makes sense that Speed buff is aligned and balanced with Speed debuffs. ZOS clearly wants us to be moving at the regular speed. They do not want someone to be able to easily keep 100% uptime on Major Expedition, without making huge sacrifices. And i guess that is fine too. We will have to adapt.
Crixus8000 wrote: »I am taking a break from the game. I played for fun but this patch has completely taken the fun out of the game for me. I loved my class, even with it's flaws but since stamsorcs are supposed to be fast and their gameplay is based on that yet in 99% of fights I can't even move I don't see the point in playing. Getting into a fight and being rooted to a stop, only able to land 1-2 attacks between having to spam forward and being unable to los is terrible.
I don't really agree..
Personally, I don't like how effective pots are - to the point where to be competitive in PVP, you need to spend soo much time out of PVP - either farming for mats or earning gold to buy them.
I'd much rather that major exped on pots stayed as they are, but the ability changes were reverted.. Some classes are meant to be more mobile, and that should be reflected in the class abilities that they are able (and choose) to slot..
Ofc, Rapids missing the nerfs is probably a big factor though....
Alternatively (or additionally), we could also increase the time for major expedition from class skills so that all classes have high major expedition uptime.
As the thread as gone on, at least now we're recognising that speed pots were not balanced and were a crutch for people who can afford them.
Thing is, if you really need a crutch to 1vX, are you really a 1vXer?
Crutching to 1vX is the definition of cheese builds.
That being said, I do agree that the game can feel slow at times with snares and roots. The solution to that is to nerf snares by introducing major snare: 30%, and minor snare: 10%. Most snare abilities should only provide minor snare.
Secondly, roots also need a longer cooldown, so increase the root immunity provided by dodge roll from 2s to 4s.
Alternatively (or additionally), we could also increase the time for major expedition from class skills so that all classes have high major expedition uptime.
If you'd rather have old speed pots back compared to universal buffs to speed (or universal nerf to snares/roots), then you don't care about "Bringing back speed", you only care about getting your crutch back. May as well admit it at this point.
Bring back speed, but not by speed pots!
Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »High speed uptime was not a crutch to make it a faceroll, it was mandatory to not get facerolled as soon as the bigger group turns around the corner.
But yep, must be crutching since poor players can't afford them. Seriously, who can't afford pots? If you don't want to invest in "endgame gear" then don't expect to perform better than someone who comes well prepared.
Funny, my magplar in light armor does exactly that, still packs quite the punch and can survive in a 1v3 with cheesers running bleeds nd procs for a couple of minutes in Sotha Sil. Longer if played by a better player who doesnt overcasts abilities nd such.ZOS clearly wants us to be moving at the regular speed. They do not want someone to be able to easily keep 100% uptime on Major Expedition, without making huge sacrifices.
Have we been reading the same thread? Cause ive been reading one where most comments regarding said topic was that the pot wasnt the issue but the buffs to speed that came after (with swift) were.As the thread as gone on, at least now we're recognising that speed pots were not balanced and were a crutch for people who can afford them.
Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Alternatively (or additionally), we could also increase the time for major expedition from class skills so that all classes have high major expedition uptime.
Interesting, but that wouldn't benefit all classes equally. Just to give a few examples:
Where is major Expedition on my Templar toolkit?
Where is major Expedition on my DK toolkit if I want to use it to retreat instead of closing in?
Where is major Expedition on my stam Sorc if I want to use the class defining buff (minor exp) as well?
Also, the way you call out speed pot users for crutching tells me you don't really small scale a lot. High speed uptime was not a crutch to make it a faceroll, it was mandatory to not get facerolled as soon as the bigger group turns around the corner.
But yep, must be crutching since poor players can't afford them. Seriously, who can't afford pots? If you don't want to invest in "endgame gear" then don't expect to perform better than someone who comes well prepared.
No major buff should have 100% uptime. It is good right now.
Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Alternatively (or additionally), we could also increase the time for major expedition from class skills so that all classes have high major expedition uptime.
Interesting, but that wouldn't benefit all classes equally. Just to give a few examples:
Where is major Expedition on my Templar toolkit?
Where is major Expedition on my DK toolkit if I want to use it to retreat instead of closing in?
Where is major Expedition on my stam Sorc if I want to use the class defining buff (minor exp) as well?
Also, the way you call out speed pot users for crutching tells me you don't really small scale a lot. High speed uptime was not a crutch to make it a faceroll, it was mandatory to not get facerolled as soon as the bigger group turns around the corner.
But yep, must be crutching since poor players can't afford them. Seriously, who can't afford pots? If you don't want to invest in "endgame gear" then don't expect to perform better than someone who comes well prepared.
Again, not difficult to give all classes major expedition uptime. A buff to the psijic skill (Race against time?) will most likely solve the Major expedition availability for all classes in one go (make one stam morph). But I'd appreciate if ZOS gave more variety and introduce new ways for classes that don't have it in their class toolkit.
I primarily play BG's, and I've played my fair share of cyrodill before. High speed is necessary for small scale, speed pots are not necessary for small scale. It is viable to play stamplar with bow as smallscale in cyrodill, I've played one myself.
Again, I don't want to deep into the argument who can afford them or who can't. I will just tell you, that the majority of players can not invest 9.6k for a single hour of gameplay, alternatively see it as 28k for 3 hours of PVPing. At least we can agree that speed pots were much more viable for stam since speed pots did not come in a magicka variant.
At the end of the day, buff speed, not speed pots.
Have we been reading the same thread? Cause ive been reading one where most comments regarding said topic was that the pot wasnt the issue but the buffs to speed that came after (with swift) were.As the thread as gone on, at least now we're recognising that speed pots were not balanced and were a crutch for people who can afford them.
Calling speed pots a crutch is a pretty ballsy statement to make.
As the thread as gone on, at least now we're recognising that speed pots were not balanced and were a crutch for people who can afford them.
Thing is, if you really need a crutch to 1vX, are you really a 1vXer?
Crutching to 1vX is the definition of cheese builds.
That being said, I do agree that the game can feel slow at times with snares and roots. The solution to that is to nerf snares by introducing major snare: 30%, and minor snare: 10%. Most snare abilities should only provide minor snare.
Secondly, roots also need a longer cooldown, so increase the root immunity provided by dodge roll from 2s to 4s.
Alternatively (or additionally), we could also increase the time for major expedition from class skills so that all classes have high major expedition uptime.
If you'd rather have old speed pots back compared to universal buffs to speed (or universal nerf to snares/roots), then you don't care about "Bringing back speed", you only care about getting your crutch back. May as well admit it at this point.
Bring back speed, but not by speed pots!
For the sake of the argument I'll say that speed pots are a crutch. What about zerglings who rely on earthgore, pirate skeleton etc to literally cover up their mistakes and saving their lives in situations where they'd otherwise be dead? Aren't sets like that a crutch? Why should I play without a crutch when they zergs and Xv1 enthusiasts have so many? Not only them even. Many players run around with stuff like that pretending they're good when they're crutching.
I said bring back the speed (pots) cause the way I have thought about it it's the best solution and thus I suggested it, but to be perfectly honest I want balance. If the minor/major system you're talking about works then I'm game. Bring it on
Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »No major buff should have 100% uptime. It is good right now.
@Bashev
So, when we're gonna nerf
- major intellect from mag pots
- major sorcery from spell damage pots
- major prophecy from crit pots
Best of it, all those buffs can be kept perma up by using 1 (one) single pot
Same goes with Endurance, Brutatility and Savagery.
What about major Fortitude?
I guess we should take a look at skills that grant major ward, major resolve, brutality or sorcery too then? And are we gonna cut into shuffle, blur and blade cloak as well because they grant major evasion?
Or where do you want to draw the line?
I didn't say most, I said people are starting to recognise.
Like I said, if you would rather have old speed pots compared to universal buffs to speed, then you also believe it is a crutch. You just don't want to admit it. Why would anyone oppose universal speed buffs?
Crixus8000 wrote: »
I didn't say most, I said people are starting to recognise.
Like I said, if you would rather have old speed pots compared to universal buffs to speed, then you also believe it is a crutch. You just don't want to admit it. Why would anyone oppose universal speed buffs?
Because universal speed buffs would not benefit all classes equally. I have 0 damn space on my stamsorc bar. And now with spamming forward every few seconds I already have little time to engage, having to spam speed too would make me fast sure, but I wouldn't be able to do much else.
And no I don't think they are a crutch. I think they help counter other crutches, although I hate the word. They help when the enemy is crutching behined multiple other players, they help when people are crutching with multiple zaans and other proc sets requiring 0 skill. Speed is just an important part of playing solo/smallscale, just as other things are important for other types of gameplay, doesn't mean they are crutches.
As the thread as gone on, at least now we're recognising that speed pots were not balanced and were a crutch for people who can afford them.
Thing is, if you really need a crutch to 1vX, are you really a 1vXer?
Crutching to 1vX is the definition of cheese builds.
That being said, I do agree that the game can feel slow at times with snares and roots. The solution to that is to nerf snares by introducing major snare: 30%, and minor snare: 10%. Most snare abilities should only provide minor snare.
Secondly, roots also need a longer cooldown, so increase the root immunity provided by dodge roll from 2s to 4s.
Alternatively (or additionally), we could also increase the time for major expedition from class skills so that all classes have high major expedition uptime.
If you'd rather have old speed pots back compared to universal buffs to speed (or universal nerf to snares/roots), then you don't care about "Bringing back speed", you only care about getting your crutch back. May as well admit it at this point.
Bring back speed, but not by speed pots!
For the sake of the argument I'll say that speed pots are a crutch. What about zerglings who rely on earthgore, pirate skeleton etc to literally cover up their mistakes and saving their lives in situations where they'd otherwise be dead? Aren't sets like that a crutch? Why should I play without a crutch when they zergs and Xv1 enthusiasts have so many? Not only them even. Many players run around with stuff like that pretending they're good when they're crutching.
I said bring back the speed (pots) cause the way I have thought about it it's the best solution and thus I suggested it, but to be perfectly honest I want balance. If the minor/major system you're talking about works then I'm game. Bring it on
Earthgore is a crutch - I would advocate nerfing it
Trollking, old malubeth, old selene, old tremorscale were also crutches. Trollking still is, especially on some builds.
Haven't used P.S much, but sure you can add that to the list as well.
Ideally all crutches should be balanced, like how they balanced selene and tremorscale.
But people in this thread pretending they are skillful because they 1vX, and also admitting they can't 1vX without speed pots, while simultaneously stating speed pots are not a crutch were really starting to get on my nerves.
Personally I'd appreciate ZOS removes all crutches in this game, I'm not arguing to keep some and leave the rest.
Crixus8000 wrote: »
I didn't say most, I said people are starting to recognise.
Like I said, if you would rather have old speed pots compared to universal buffs to speed, then you also believe it is a crutch. You just don't want to admit it. Why would anyone oppose universal speed buffs?
Because universal speed buffs would not benefit all classes equally. I have 0 damn space on my stamsorc bar. And now with spamming forward every few seconds I already have little time to engage, having to spam speed too would make me fast sure, but I wouldn't be able to do much else.
And no I don't think they are a crutch. I think they help counter other crutches, although I hate the word. They help when the enemy is crutching behined multiple other players, they help when people are crutching with multiple zaans and other proc sets requiring 0 skill. Speed is just an important part of playing solo/smallscale, just as other things are important for other types of gameplay, doesn't mean they are crutches.
The whole point of me saying 'universal' is that they should in theory provide all classes high uptime on major expedition, while also being equally viable for each class (whatever way they choose to implement this). Speed pots never provided all classes equal benefit, so your argument also opposes the idea of old speed pots.
As of right now, I think we are arguing the same thing [universal access to speed], except you seem to be a little contradictory in your argument.
Crixus8000 wrote: »
I didn't say most, I said people are starting to recognise.
Like I said, if you would rather have old speed pots compared to universal buffs to speed, then you also believe it is a crutch. You just don't want to admit it. Why would anyone oppose universal speed buffs?
Because universal speed buffs would not benefit all classes equally. I have 0 damn space on my stamsorc bar. And now with spamming forward every few seconds I already have little time to engage, having to spam speed too would make me fast sure, but I wouldn't be able to do much else.
And no I don't think they are a crutch. I think they help counter other crutches, although I hate the word. They help when the enemy is crutching behined multiple other players, they help when people are crutching with multiple zaans and other proc sets requiring 0 skill. Speed is just an important part of playing solo/smallscale, just as other things are important for other types of gameplay, doesn't mean they are crutches.
The whole point of me saying 'universal' is that they should in theory provide all classes high uptime on major expedition, while also being equally viable for each class (whatever way they choose to implement this). Speed pots never provided all classes equal benefit, so your argument also opposes the idea of old speed pots.
As of right now, I think we are arguing the same thing [universal access to speed], except you seem to be a little contradictory in your argument.
No major buff should have 100% uptime. It is good right now.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »No major buff should have 100% uptime. It is good right now.
@Bashev
So, when we're gonna nerf
- major intellect from mag pots
- major sorcery from spell damage pots
- major prophecy from crit pots
Best of it, all those buffs can be kept perma up by using 1 (one) single pot
Same goes with Endurance, Brutatility and Savagery.
What about major Fortitude?
I guess we should take a look at skills that grant major ward, major resolve, brutality or sorcery too then? And are we gonna cut into shuffle, blur and blade cloak as well because they grant major evasion?
Or where do you want to draw the line?
In this game if a buff come from a skill it could be theoretically used permanently because there is no CDs.
On the other hand I think that potions should not give major buffs for such long duration. If ZoS rework the potions and reduce the CD and then lower the resources that they provide + rework Argonian passive, then you can use them to buff yourself. But using once every 45 seconds it is kind of too easy.
So you are right, ZoS could lower all major buffs from potions.
This makes no sense at all. If 2 out of 200 people say yes to B while the other 198 people say yes to A you can theoretically say people are starting to recognise B but it has 0 value to the bigger picture.... Language acrobatics is what I call this.Have we been reading the same thread? Cause ive been reading one where most comments regarding said topic was that the pot wasnt the issue but the buffs to speed that came after (with swift) were.As the thread as gone on, at least now we're recognising that speed pots were not balanced and were a crutch for people who can afford them.
Calling speed pots a crutch is a pretty ballsy statement to make.
I didn't say most, I said people are starting to recognise.
Like I said, if you would rather have old speed pots compared to universal buffs to speed, then you also believe it is a crutch. You just don't want to admit it. Why would anyone oppose universal speed buffs?
Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Crixus8000 wrote: »
I didn't say most, I said people are starting to recognise.
Like I said, if you would rather have old speed pots compared to universal buffs to speed, then you also believe it is a crutch. You just don't want to admit it. Why would anyone oppose universal speed buffs?
Because universal speed buffs would not benefit all classes equally. I have 0 damn space on my stamsorc bar. And now with spamming forward every few seconds I already have little time to engage, having to spam speed too would make me fast sure, but I wouldn't be able to do much else.
And no I don't think they are a crutch. I think they help counter other crutches, although I hate the word. They help when the enemy is crutching behined multiple other players, they help when people are crutching with multiple zaans and other proc sets requiring 0 skill. Speed is just an important part of playing solo/smallscale, just as other things are important for other types of gameplay, doesn't mean they are crutches.
The whole point of me saying 'universal' is that they should in theory provide all classes high uptime on major expedition, while also being equally viable for each class (whatever way they choose to implement this). Speed pots never provided all classes equal benefit, so your argument also opposes the idea of old speed pots.
As of right now, I think we are arguing the same thing [universal access to speed], except you seem to be a little contradictory in your argument.
You know what would also provide equal benefit?
The addition of mag speed pots. There, I said it. What's your point against that?
Crixus8000 wrote: »Crixus8000 wrote: »
I didn't say most, I said people are starting to recognise.
Like I said, if you would rather have old speed pots compared to universal buffs to speed, then you also believe it is a crutch. You just don't want to admit it. Why would anyone oppose universal speed buffs?
Because universal speed buffs would not benefit all classes equally. I have 0 damn space on my stamsorc bar. And now with spamming forward every few seconds I already have little time to engage, having to spam speed too would make me fast sure, but I wouldn't be able to do much else.
And no I don't think they are a crutch. I think they help counter other crutches, although I hate the word. They help when the enemy is crutching behined multiple other players, they help when people are crutching with multiple zaans and other proc sets requiring 0 skill. Speed is just an important part of playing solo/smallscale, just as other things are important for other types of gameplay, doesn't mean they are crutches.
The whole point of me saying 'universal' is that they should in theory provide all classes high uptime on major expedition, while also being equally viable for each class (whatever way they choose to implement this). Speed pots never provided all classes equal benefit, so your argument also opposes the idea of old speed pots.
As of right now, I think we are arguing the same thing [universal access to speed], except you seem to be a little contradictory in your argument.
All stam classes could use speed pots fine, but yes I would have liked a magicka type version too.
But I just can't see major expedition working like you say, it would mean changing some classes and the devs would probably mess that up. Even if it did work, like I said having to cast that all the time while also casting forward all the time just to be mobile would not work well at all, just casting forward every few seconds is already pathetic and slow.
This makes no sense at all. If 2 out of 200 people say yes to B while the other 198 people say yes to A you can theoretically say people are starting to recognise B but it has 0 value to the bigger picture.... Language acrobatics is what I call this.Have we been reading the same thread? Cause ive been reading one where most comments regarding said topic was that the pot wasnt the issue but the buffs to speed that came after (with swift) were.As the thread as gone on, at least now we're recognising that speed pots were not balanced and were a crutch for people who can afford them.
Calling speed pots a crutch is a pretty ballsy statement to make.
I didn't say most, I said people are starting to recognise.
Like I said, if you would rather have old speed pots compared to universal buffs to speed, then you also believe it is a crutch. You just don't want to admit it. Why would anyone oppose universal speed buffs?
I see where youre coming from but I think youre missing some important points, or just choose to ignore them to suit your agenda. And I think youre misusing the word crutch in this case.
You cant just call something a crutch because X has access to it and Y hasnt.
Are detect pots crutches too because they can be combined with mag return but no stam return?
Any stam build relies on Vigor - does that make vigor a crutch?
Most magbuilds rely on Healing Ward (at least pre Nerfmire, idk how it is now) - does/did that make this skill a crutch?
Any decent build utilizes multiple major buffs with (ideally) 100% uptime - are those crutches too?
Ever seen anyone 1vX without gear and skills? Guess everyone is using crutches all the time and those who are getting 1vX'ed regardless just need a wheelchair instead ...