Crixus8000 wrote: »

I am taking a break from the game. I played for fun but this patch has completely taken the fun out of the game for me. I loved my class, even with it's flaws but since stamsorcs are supposed to be fast and their gameplay is based on that yet in 99% of fights I can't even move I don't see the point in playing. Getting into a fight and being rooted to a stop, only able to land 1-2 attacks between having to spam forward and being unable to los is terrible.

Same here but i play a fat slow dk.. who is even fatter and slower now. It is just boring.. guess the only thing i could do to still play PvP the way i like to play it is to create a nigtblade and teleport/cloak instead of running when the zerg comes for me

I don't see how i've contradicted myself in this thread.

As the thread as gone on, at least now we're recognising that speed pots were not balanced and were a crutch for people who can afford them.

Thing is, if you really need a crutch to 1vX, are you really a 1vXer?
Crutching to 1vX is the definition of cheese builds.

That being said, I do agree that the game can feel slow at times with snares and roots. The solution to that is to nerf snares by introducing major snare: 30%, and minor snare: 10%. Most snare abilities should only provide minor snare.
Secondly, roots also need a longer cooldown, so increase the root immunity provided by dodge roll from 2s to 4s.
Alternatively (or additionally), we could also increase the time for major expedition from class skills so that all classes have high major expedition uptime.

If you'd rather have old speed pots back compared to universal buffs to speed (or universal nerf to snares/roots), then you don't care about "Bringing back speed", you only care about getting your crutch back. May as well admit it at this point.

Bring back speed, but not by speed pots!

likecats wrote: »

As the thread as gone on, at least now we're recognising that speed pots were not balanced and were a crutch for people who can afford them.

Thing is, if you really need a crutch to 1vX, are you really a 1vXer?
Crutching to 1vX is the definition of cheese builds.

That being said, I do agree that the game can feel slow at times with snares and roots. The solution to that is to nerf snares by introducing major snare: 30%, and minor snare: 10%. Most snare abilities should only provide minor snare.
Secondly, roots also need a longer cooldown, so increase the root immunity provided by dodge roll from 2s to 4s.
Alternatively (or additionally), we could also increase the time for major expedition from class skills so that all classes have high major expedition uptime.

If you'd rather have old speed pots back compared to universal buffs to speed (or universal nerf to snares/roots), then you don't care about "Bringing back speed", you only care about getting your crutch back. May as well admit it at this point.

Bring back speed, but not by speed pots!

For the sake of the argument I'll say that speed pots are a crutch. What about zerglings who rely on earthgore, pirate skeleton etc to literally cover up their mistakes and saving their lives in situations where they'd otherwise be dead? Aren't sets like that a crutch? Why should I play without a crutch when they zergs and Xv1 enthusiasts have so many? Not only them even. Many players run around with stuff like that pretending they're good when they're crutching.

I said bring back the speed (pots) cause the way I have thought about it it's the best solution and thus I suggested it, but to be perfectly honest I want balance. If the minor/major system you're talking about works then I'm game. Bring it on

raasdal wrote: »

ZOS clearly wants us to be moving at the regular speed. They do not want someone to be able to easily keep 100% uptime on Major Expedition, without making huge sacrifices.

Funny, my magplar in light armor does exactly that, still packs quite the punch and can survive in a 1v3 with cheesers running bleeds nd procs for a couple of minutes in Sotha Sil. Longer if played by a better player who doesnt overcasts abilities nd such.

Zos doesnt know what its doing.

likecats wrote: »

As the thread as gone on, at least now we're recognising that speed pots were not balanced and were a crutch for people who can afford them.

Have we been reading the same thread? Cause ive been reading one where most comments regarding said topic was that the pot wasnt the issue but the buffs to speed that came after (with swift) were.

Calling speed pots a crutch is a pretty ballsy statement to make.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

Alternatively (or additionally), we could also increase the time for major expedition from class skills so that all classes have high major expedition uptime.

Interesting, but that wouldn't benefit all classes equally. Just to give a few examples:

Where is major Expedition on my Templar toolkit?
Where is major Expedition on my DK toolkit if I want to use it to retreat instead of closing in?
Where is major Expedition on my stam Sorc if I want to use the class defining buff (minor exp) as well?

Also, the way you call out speed pot users for crutching tells me you don't really small scale a lot. High speed uptime was not a crutch to make it a faceroll, it was mandatory to not get facerolled as soon as the bigger group turns around the corner.

But yep, must be crutching since poor players can't afford them. Seriously, who can't afford pots? If you don't want to invest in "endgame gear" then don't expect to perform better than someone who comes well prepared.

Again, not difficult to give all classes major expedition uptime. A buff to the psijic skill (Race against time?) will most likely solve the Major expedition availability for all classes in one go (make one stam morph). But I'd appreciate if ZOS gave more variety and introduce new ways for classes that don't have it in their class toolkit.

I primarily play BG's, and I've played my fair share of cyrodill before. High speed is necessary for small scale, speed pots are not necessary for small scale. It is viable to play stamplar with bow as smallscale in cyrodill, I've played one myself.

Again, I don't want to get too deep into the argument who can afford them or who can't. I will just tell you, that the majority of players can not invest 9.6k for a single hour of gameplay, alternatively see it as 28k for 3 hours of PVPing. At least we can agree that speed pots were much more viable for stam since speed pots did not come in a magicka variant.

At the end of the day, buff speed, not speed pots.

likecats wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

Alternatively (or additionally), we could also increase the time for major expedition from class skills so that all classes have high major expedition uptime.

Interesting, but that wouldn't benefit all classes equally. Just to give a few examples:

Where is major Expedition on my Templar toolkit?
Where is major Expedition on my DK toolkit if I want to use it to retreat instead of closing in?
Where is major Expedition on my stam Sorc if I want to use the class defining buff (minor exp) as well?

Also, the way you call out speed pot users for crutching tells me you don't really small scale a lot. High speed uptime was not a crutch to make it a faceroll, it was mandatory to not get facerolled as soon as the bigger group turns around the corner.

But yep, must be crutching since poor players can't afford them. Seriously, who can't afford pots? If you don't want to invest in "endgame gear" then don't expect to perform better than someone who comes well prepared.

Again, not difficult to give all classes major expedition uptime. A buff to the psijic skill (Race against time?) will most likely solve the Major expedition availability for all classes in one go (make one stam morph). But I'd appreciate if ZOS gave more variety and introduce new ways for classes that don't have it in their class toolkit.

I primarily play BG's, and I've played my fair share of cyrodill before. High speed is necessary for small scale, speed pots are not necessary for small scale. It is viable to play stamplar with bow as smallscale in cyrodill, I've played one myself.

Again, I don't want to deep into the argument who can afford them or who can't. I will just tell you, that the majority of players can not invest 9.6k for a single hour of gameplay, alternatively see it as 28k for 3 hours of PVPing. At least we can agree that speed pots were much more viable for stam since speed pots did not come in a magicka variant.

At the end of the day, buff speed, not speed pots.

That's why people asked for speed pots that return mag. I mostly used lingering health + major exp pots on my stam toons, no resource-benefit there.

Also, I'd put a buff to Race againt time behind updating class skills. Bar space is tight on many builds, especially if you look at that old class that was somehow designed to be the fastest.

Trian94 wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

As the thread as gone on, at least now we're recognising that speed pots were not balanced and were a crutch for people who can afford them.

Thing is, if you really need a crutch to 1vX, are you really a 1vXer?
Crutching to 1vX is the definition of cheese builds.

That being said, I do agree that the game can feel slow at times with snares and roots. The solution to that is to nerf snares by introducing major snare: 30%, and minor snare: 10%. Most snare abilities should only provide minor snare.
Secondly, roots also need a longer cooldown, so increase the root immunity provided by dodge roll from 2s to 4s.
Alternatively (or additionally), we could also increase the time for major expedition from class skills so that all classes have high major expedition uptime.

If you'd rather have old speed pots back compared to universal buffs to speed (or universal nerf to snares/roots), then you don't care about "Bringing back speed", you only care about getting your crutch back. May as well admit it at this point.

Bring back speed, but not by speed pots!

For the sake of the argument I'll say that speed pots are a crutch. What about zerglings who rely on earthgore, pirate skeleton etc to literally cover up their mistakes and saving their lives in situations where they'd otherwise be dead? Aren't sets like that a crutch? Why should I play without a crutch when they zergs and Xv1 enthusiasts have so many? Not only them even. Many players run around with stuff like that pretending they're good when they're crutching.

I said bring back the speed (pots) cause the way I have thought about it it's the best solution and thus I suggested it, but to be perfectly honest I want balance. If the minor/major system you're talking about works then I'm game. Bring it on

Earthgore is a crutch - I would advocate nerfing it
Trollking, old malubeth, old selene, old tremorscale were also crutches. Trollking still is, especially on some builds.
Haven't used P.S much, but sure you can add that to the list as well.

Ideally all crutches should be balanced, like how they balanced selene and tremorscale.

But people in this thread pretending they are skillful because they 1vX, and also admitting they can't 1vX without speed pots, while simultaneously stating speed pots are not a crutch were really starting to get on my nerves.

Personally I'd appreciate ZOS removes all crutches in this game, I'm not arguing to keep some and leave the rest.

likecats wrote: »

I didn't say most, I said people are starting to recognise.

Like I said, if you would rather have old speed pots compared to universal buffs to speed, then you also believe it is a crutch. You just don't want to admit it. Why would anyone oppose universal speed buffs?

Because universal speed buffs would not benefit all classes equally. I have 0 damn space on my stamsorc bar. And now with spamming forward every few seconds I already have little time to engage, having to spam speed too would make me fast sure, but I wouldn't be able to do much else.

And no I don't think they are a crutch. I think they help counter other crutches, although I hate the word. They help when the enemy is crutching behined multiple other players, they help when people are crutching with multiple zaans and other proc sets requiring 0 skill. Speed is just an important part of playing solo/smallscale, just as other things are important for other types of gameplay, doesn't mean they are crutches.

likecats wrote: »

Trian94 wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

As the thread as gone on, at least now we're recognising that speed pots were not balanced and were a crutch for people who can afford them.

Thing is, if you really need a crutch to 1vX, are you really a 1vXer?
Crutching to 1vX is the definition of cheese builds.

That being said, I do agree that the game can feel slow at times with snares and roots. The solution to that is to nerf snares by introducing major snare: 30%, and minor snare: 10%. Most snare abilities should only provide minor snare.
Secondly, roots also need a longer cooldown, so increase the root immunity provided by dodge roll from 2s to 4s.
Alternatively (or additionally), we could also increase the time for major expedition from class skills so that all classes have high major expedition uptime.

If you'd rather have old speed pots back compared to universal buffs to speed (or universal nerf to snares/roots), then you don't care about "Bringing back speed", you only care about getting your crutch back. May as well admit it at this point.

Bring back speed, but not by speed pots!

For the sake of the argument I'll say that speed pots are a crutch. What about zerglings who rely on earthgore, pirate skeleton etc to literally cover up their mistakes and saving their lives in situations where they'd otherwise be dead? Aren't sets like that a crutch? Why should I play without a crutch when they zergs and Xv1 enthusiasts have so many? Not only them even. Many players run around with stuff like that pretending they're good when they're crutching.

I said bring back the speed (pots) cause the way I have thought about it it's the best solution and thus I suggested it, but to be perfectly honest I want balance. If the minor/major system you're talking about works then I'm game. Bring it on

Earthgore is a crutch - I would advocate nerfing it
Trollking, old malubeth, old selene, old tremorscale were also crutches. Trollking still is, especially on some builds.
Haven't used P.S much, but sure you can add that to the list as well.

Ideally all crutches should be balanced, like how they balanced selene and tremorscale.

But people in this thread pretending they are skillful because they 1vX, and also admitting they can't 1vX without speed pots, while simultaneously stating speed pots are not a crutch were really starting to get on my nerves.

Personally I'd appreciate ZOS removes all crutches in this game, I'm not arguing to keep some and leave the rest.

I haven't read a comment of anyone saying that they cant 1vX now. Maybe I missed it but I certainly didn't write it. I can 1vX in this patch too. 1vX and smallscaling are hard in their nature but they're just getting harder and harder every patch for no reason at all. Especially now when people have such an impact for literally NOTHING that requires effort both offensively and defensively

I've said it before already. For something to be nerfed, it's counterpart must be adjusted accordingly to preserve balance, right now this isn't the case for the obvious reasons repeatedly pointed out in this thread

likecats wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

I didn't say most, I said people are starting to recognise.

Like I said, if you would rather have old speed pots compared to universal buffs to speed, then you also believe it is a crutch. You just don't want to admit it. Why would anyone oppose universal speed buffs?

Because universal speed buffs would not benefit all classes equally. I have 0 damn space on my stamsorc bar. And now with spamming forward every few seconds I already have little time to engage, having to spam speed too would make me fast sure, but I wouldn't be able to do much else.

And no I don't think they are a crutch. I think they help counter other crutches, although I hate the word. They help when the enemy is crutching behined multiple other players, they help when people are crutching with multiple zaans and other proc sets requiring 0 skill. Speed is just an important part of playing solo/smallscale, just as other things are important for other types of gameplay, doesn't mean they are crutches.

The whole point of me saying 'universal' is that they should in theory provide all classes high uptime on major expedition, while also being equally viable for each class (whatever way they choose to implement this). Speed pots never provided all classes equal benefit, so your argument also opposes the idea of old speed pots.

As of right now, I think we are arguing the same thing [universal access to speed], except you seem to be a little contradictory in your argument.

You know what would also provide equal benefit?

The addition of mag speed pots. There, I said it. What's your point against that?

likecats wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

As the thread as gone on, at least now we're recognising that speed pots were not balanced and were a crutch for people who can afford them.

Have we been reading the same thread? Cause ive been reading one where most comments regarding said topic was that the pot wasnt the issue but the buffs to speed that came after (with swift) were.

Calling speed pots a crutch is a pretty ballsy statement to make.

I didn't say most, I said people are starting to recognise.

Like I said, if you would rather have old speed pots compared to universal buffs to speed, then you also believe it is a crutch. You just don't want to admit it. Why would anyone oppose universal speed buffs?

This makes no sense at all. If 2 out of 200 people say yes to B while the other 198 people say yes to A you can theoretically say people are starting to recognise B but it has 0 value to the bigger picture.... Language acrobatics is what I call this.

I see where youre coming from but I think youre missing some important points, or just choose to ignore them to suit your agenda. And I think youre misusing the word crutch in this case.
You cant just call something a crutch because X has access to it and Y hasnt.
Are detect pots crutches too because they can be combined with mag return but no stam return?

montjie wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

As the thread as gone on, at least now we're recognising that speed pots were not balanced and were a crutch for people who can afford them.

Have we been reading the same thread? Cause ive been reading one where most comments regarding said topic was that the pot wasnt the issue but the buffs to speed that came after (with swift) were.

Calling speed pots a crutch is a pretty ballsy statement to make.

I didn't say most, I said people are starting to recognise.

Like I said, if you would rather have old speed pots compared to universal buffs to speed, then you also believe it is a crutch. You just don't want to admit it. Why would anyone oppose universal speed buffs?

This makes no sense at all. If 2 out of 200 people say yes to B while the other 198 people say yes to A you can theoretically say people are starting to recognise B but it has 0 value to the bigger picture.... Language acrobatics is what I call this.

I see where youre coming from but I think youre missing some important points, or just choose to ignore them to suit your agenda. And I think youre misusing the word crutch in this case.
You cant just call something a crutch because X has access to it and Y hasnt.
Are detect pots crutches too because they can be combined with mag return but no stam return?

I define crutch as being overly reliant on item A to perform, so much that you can not achieve similar levels of performance with a substitute item B.

If someone says that they can only 1vX with speed pots, then speed pots were a crutch for them while 1vXing. As you can see many people here have stated just that.
If speed pot was not a crutch (for many people), they would simply move onto weapon power pots, or tripots and achieve similar results.

When they nerfed viper/selenes, a lot of bad players could no longer achieve anywhere close to the same PVP results. As a result you can conclude they were crutching on viper.

I wouldn't call detect pots a crutch because (in my experience) they are not necessary to kill nightblades. Never seen someone complain that they can't kill nightblades without detect pots. You can remove detect pots from the game, and I bet nightblades will still be killed at a similar level as before, because detect pots are not significantly stronger than its substitutes (mage light, AOEs).

Anyways, I'm not against reverting speed pot nerf as long as they buff major expedition uptime via skill lines so much that you can realistically maintain 100% uptime. (read previous post)

@likecats

I agree with your change ideas. speed pots reverted, a mag speed pot option and overall increase to speed skills would be great imo.

I do disagree with your idea of a crutch though, @Rianai explained it well.

Rianai wrote: »

Any stam build relies on Vigor - does that make vigor a crutch?
Most magbuilds rely on Healing Ward (at least pre Nerfmire, idk how it is now) - does/did that make this skill a crutch?
Any decent build utilizes multiple major buffs with (ideally) 100% uptime - are those crutches too?
Ever seen anyone 1vX without gear and skills? Guess everyone is using crutches all the time and those who are getting 1vX'ed regardless just need a wheelchair instead ...

If a mechanic is universal, then it's not a crutch, it's part of the base game.
Healing ward, vigor are all horizontally balanced. The healing aspect is universal across all classes.
Sets likewise are also universal, can't call them a crutch.

The old speed pot however, was the only source of high major expedition uptime.
If you had to rely on a singular overtuned item to perform then you were crutching on it. Just like if you 'need' the old viper to kill people, or you 'need' troll king to survive, then you are crutching on it. All of these are singular overtuned sets unique in what they provide.

That being said if they make 100% major expedition uptime universal by buffing major expedition uptime via skill lines, old speed pot will no longer be a crutch. It will be a balanced alternative to widely available buff.

There should be consistency in a buff's availability. Either major expedition is easy to access across the board, or it is difficult to access across the board. Making it difficult to access generally, while also leaving only one source of easy access leads to bad balancing. Make major expedition universal, and speed pots should be reverted to 47s uptime. I don't mind reverting to old speed pots as long as they buff other sources of major expedition to provide defacto 100% uptime.