Bring back the speed

likecats

Trian94 wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

Sorry, I don't miss the speed meta so I can honestly say I disagree. Considering even on live right now with only 30% speed increase the target system is buggy when you move a certain way I'm not discussing on the forums, I don't think anyone should have it 100% up without REAL sacrifice.

Also, you can call yourself whatever you want and try to act like those pots weren't overpowered before Summerset, but if that is so, why does it make such a large difference in your gameplay? Why do you need to crutch on it if its not overpowered? If it's the sole difference between you winning or dying 1vX what does that really say about it?

The forums always are entertaining...Watch someone call me a noob or a zergling, can't wait to

It says that snares have gotten really strong and now their counterpart has been nerfed down so they're stronger

I read various responses of yours, and I don't know if you're deliberately leaving out the fact snares have been nerfed across the board since about February.

In a previous response, you claimed that:

Plus before swift nobody complained about speed pots cause it wasn't that op if you really think about it

It's one thing to say one speed pots were not complained about, and another to say they weren't OP.

Nobody complained about speed pots, because a year ago it was VERY EASY to keep 100% uptime of a 60%+ snare in a 1v1.
Now, that is no longer a thing, the uptime of snares have been nerfed across the board, in addition to their potency.

In the current meta, you can't permasnare anyone on any class except on maybe Magblade and Magdk for much milder values of 30-40% and even that with 2x increased cost (since you have to reapply twice as often).

In addition, in the past, nobody used forward momentum because Rally was essential for all stam characters. However with additions of things like troll-king, stamwarden who have really good classes heals, plus addition of new healing options for stamblades, plus increasing the viability of dual-wield to slot blood-craze, way more stam-toons can now afford to slot forward momentum than 1+ year ago.

They also added snare/root immunity for dodge roll which further nerfed snares down.

To pretend that only 'speed' got nerfed and snare did not get nerfed is ignorant.

Even though speed pots were not complained about, they were still OP compared to any other potions available for PVP. I'm part of probably the best PVP guild in PC NA, and there has been a strong consensus that speed pots (the prenerf ones) are the best potions for stamina PVP by a long margin. It's really not up for debate.

Speed pots were OP in the same way pre-nerf sharpened was, or currently impen (armor trait) is. Just because everyone can access it doesn't mean its not OP. I will not pretend that impen is not OP in pvp, I use 7 impen on all my builds because it is. Similarly, the old sharpend was categorically OP, it's not up for debate.

So the story ends up being "but everyone has access to it"!
I find that believable in case of sharpened and impen, but not for speed pots.

1) Magicka classes do not have access to an equivalent speed pot as stam does.
2) You need to dish out about 12k+ gold every 4-5 hours. The majority of players can not do that.

If you really believe everyone can access speed pots, then you're playing this game with a very elitist, stam perspective. I'm personally a strong supporter of No-CP pvp, because I like the fact people play on a level playing field rather than crutch on an advantage brought not by personal skill rather time spent playing the game.

TL;DR: Speed pots were always OP but not complained about because snares were even more OP. If you think speed pots are accessible for everyone, you need a reality check.

Trian94

Right, so first of all I'd like to say that I play only no cp pvp 90% of the time in open world, as a solo player most of the time and sometimes in 4-6 man groups.

I've been watching NA streams of people playing in No CP and talked to people who moved to EU from NA to play here for a bit and also played with me in no cp. I wish you could play EU with my ping (80-100 and not 200 which you would have if you were to play EU from the U.S) and try it out and see if snares aren't op still because the situation there compared to the one here is very different. I'm not going to pretend that class balance is ok and therefore I agree that in 1v1s snare immunity was overtuned and speed as well (and obviously not only on 1v1s but open world as well) which I have expressed before in this thread and also typed down my ideas on how it would be better for everyone (magicka and stamina). Duels are probably more balanced right now as far as snares, immunity and speed are concerned but open world isn't.

I'm not arguing that speed was op in summerset. My point is that nerfing control over it gimped solo player and smallscalers.
I'm a stamina sorcerer main and had 40% more speed in summerset 100% up, despite that some people were able to keep up with me and they weren't only stamina characters. Because snares aren't the only way to do that. ranged stuns and gap closers are going out ever second in open world. In my opinion speed is not something that should allow players to zoom around untouchable. It's only needed to break line of sight faster. Which is presicely why I explained that it would be better to nerf the values. Now I can't imagine how it would be so hard for people to keep up with anyone that has major expedition with a 20% increased speed value instead of 30%. I may not have the correct numbers but If people could keep up with me at 40% increased speed (minor and major expedition) and steak/ball of lighting they would be able to keep up with me and everyone else with lower speed values but 100% uptime especially with someone who isn't a stamsorc.

As far as your money spending point is concered, I'm sorry mate but it means nothing to me and that's because there are many ways for making gold and there are a lot of guides on the internet, there are farming spots, Imperial CIty for whoever has the DLC. I've seen people that aren't even 160 cp and had 100k gold in their inventory. Now if someone is new and doesn't know how to make that gold to get speed pots it doesn't matter cause they'll probably die vs an experienced player even if he/she was standing still

Again I think there's not that much class balance and for example in a matter of kiting a magicka warden wouldn't be able to catch up which sucks and I have to put it out there so I'm as fair as possible.Speed was oveperforming in Summerset, it's totally gimped now and with the current forward momentum I don't think it would be op on any aspect the way i've described it when I started this thread.

P.S: It sucks that they put the best snare removal/immunity under 2h but as it is now it's fine and i think that every class should have 4 seconds of that.

likecats

Trian94 wrote: »

Right, so first of all I'd like to say that I play only no cp pvp 90% of the time in open world, as a solo player most of the time and sometimes in 4-6 man groups.

I've been watching NA streams of people playing in No CP and talked to people who moved to EU from NA to play here for a bit and also played with me in no cp. I wish you could play EU with my ping (80-100 and not 200 which you would have if you were to play EU from the U.S) and try it out and see if snares aren't op still because the situation there compared to the one here is very different. I'm not going to pretend that class balance is ok and therefore I agree that in 1v1s snare immunity was overtuned and speed as well (and obviously not only on 1v1s but open world as well) which I have expressed before in this thread and also typed down my ideas on how it would be better for everyone (magicka and stamina). Duels are probably more balanced right now as far as snares, immunity and speed are concerned but open world isn't.

I'm not arguing that speed was op in summerset. My point is that nerfing control over it gimped solo player and smallscalers.
I'm a stamina sorcerer main and had 40% more speed in summerset 100% up, despite that some people were able to keep up with me and they weren't only stamina characters. Because snares aren't the only way to do that. ranged stuns and gap closers are going out ever second in open world. In my opinion speed is not something that should allow players to zoom around untouchable. It's only needed to get to line of sight quicker. Which is presicely why I explained that it would be better to nerf the values. Now I can't imagine how it would be so hard for people to keep up with anyone that has major expedition with a 20% increased speed value instead of 30%. I may not have the correct numbers but If people could keep up with me at 40% increased speed (minor and major expedition) and steak/ball of lighting they would be able to keep up with me and everyone else with lower speed values but 100% uptime especially with someone who isn't a stamsorc.

As far as your money spending point is concered, I'm sorry mate but it means nothing to me and that's because there are many ways for making gold and there are a lot of guides on the internet, there are farming spots, Imperial CIty for whoever has the DLC. I've seen people that aren't even 160 cp and had 100k gold in their inventory. Now if someone is new and doesn't know how to make that gold to get speed pots it doesn't matter cause they'll probably die vs an experienced player even if he/she was standing still

Again I think there's not that much class balance and for example in a matter of kiting a magicka warden wouldn't be able to catch up which sucks and I have to put it out there so I'm as fair as possible.Speed was oveperforming in Summerset, it's totally gimped now and with the current forward momentum I don't think it would be op on any aspect the way i've described it when I started this thread.

P.S: It sucks that they put the best snare removal/immunity under 2h but as it is now it's fine and i think that every class should have 4 seconds of that.

I agree snares are still too strong in 1vX. I wouldn't mind if ZOS gave more immunity for snares or nerfed the values more by introducing major/minor system of 30%/10%. Excessive snares make the game super unfun.

My argument is against people who think speed pots were not OP. They were, I was just explaining why no one complained about them.

I wouldn't mind if ZOS gives everyone 30% extra speed, I'd be fine with that because it would be available for everyone, not only rich stam players. If you disagree with this, then you implicitly agree that speed pots (prenerf) were not usable/affordable by the majority except for a small group of elitist stam pvpers.

Would love to hear your response regarding everyone getting 30% increased speed across the board.

Trian94

likecats wrote: »

Trian94 wrote: »

Right, so first of all I'd like to say that I play only no cp pvp 90% of the time in open world, as a solo player most of the time and sometimes in 4-6 man groups.

I've been watching NA streams of people playing in No CP and talked to people who moved to EU from NA to play here for a bit and also played with me in no cp. I wish you could play EU with my ping (80-100 and not 200 which you would have if you were to play EU from the U.S) and try it out and see if snares aren't op still because the situation there compared to the one here is very different. I'm not going to pretend that class balance is ok and therefore I agree that in 1v1s snare immunity was overtuned and speed as well (and obviously not only on 1v1s but open world as well) which I have expressed before in this thread and also typed down my ideas on how it would be better for everyone (magicka and stamina). Duels are probably more balanced right now as far as snares, immunity and speed are concerned but open world isn't.

I'm not arguing that speed was op in summerset. My point is that nerfing control over it gimped solo player and smallscalers.
I'm a stamina sorcerer main and had 40% more speed in summerset 100% up, despite that some people were able to keep up with me and they weren't only stamina characters. Because snares aren't the only way to do that. ranged stuns and gap closers are going out ever second in open world. In my opinion speed is not something that should allow players to zoom around untouchable. It's only needed to get to line of sight quicker. Which is presicely why I explained that it would be better to nerf the values. Now I can't imagine how it would be so hard for people to keep up with anyone that has major expedition with a 20% increased speed value instead of 30%. I may not have the correct numbers but If people could keep up with me at 40% increased speed (minor and major expedition) and steak/ball of lighting they would be able to keep up with me and everyone else with lower speed values but 100% uptime especially with someone who isn't a stamsorc.

As far as your money spending point is concered, I'm sorry mate but it means nothing to me and that's because there are many ways for making gold and there are a lot of guides on the internet, there are farming spots, Imperial CIty for whoever has the DLC. I've seen people that aren't even 160 cp and had 100k gold in their inventory. Now if someone is new and doesn't know how to make that gold to get speed pots it doesn't matter cause they'll probably die vs an experienced player even if he/she was standing still

Again I think there's not that much class balance and for example in a matter of kiting a magicka warden wouldn't be able to catch up which sucks and I have to put it out there so I'm as fair as possible.Speed was oveperforming in Summerset, it's totally gimped now and with the current forward momentum I don't think it would be op on any aspect the way i've described it when I started this thread.

P.S: It sucks that they put the best snare removal/immunity under 2h but as it is now it's fine and i think that every class should have 4 seconds of that.

I agree snares are still too strong in 1vX. I wouldn't mind if ZOS gave more immunity for snares or nerfed the values more by introducing major/minor system of 30%/10%. Excessive snares make the game super unfun.

My argument is against people who think speed pots were not OP. They were, I was just explaining why no one complained about them.

I wouldn't mind if ZOS gives everyone 30% extra speed, I'd be fine with that because it would be available for everyone, not only rich stam players. If you disagree with this, then you implicitly agree that speed pots (prenerf) were not usable/affordable by the majority except for a small group of elitist stam pvpers.

Would love to hear your response regarding everyone getting 30% increased speed across the board.

I think that would bring back the problems that summerset had because every character would be able to stack 45%+ increased speed with a max of 55% if using steed (+10% for stamsorcs) so people would zoom around as before

mojomood

1. 100% Major Expedition uptime for stam characters is imbalanced. It means they dont need to run gap closers and allows heavy to be too strong. Medium to heavy speed difference is much larger now because of the sprint passives. Heavy is more of a choice to be slow but tanky.
2. Attacking a Ranged magicka player is harder because the time to cover 40 meters is longer. After that gap is closed, stam players have a massive advantage now that shields take crits.

I ran heavy last patch, but I'm not now because of this speed change. Medium is much harder without passive dodge but doable. Only my magblade is in light and its debatable how well that works right now because of the swift nerf. But the root issue there has more to do with magblade being an antique from a different age of ESO when they were building a stealthy high damage melee range class and all class skills were magicka. They achieved their goals via stamina morphs and now with stamblade have forgot about furthering the magblade PvP identity. It's either a knockoff stamblade, a knockoff sorc, or a bomber.

Burtan

mojomood wrote: »

1. 100% Major Expedition uptime for stam characters is imbalanced. It means they dont need to run gap closers and allows heavy to be too strong. Medium to heavy speed difference is much larger now because of the sprint passives. Heavy is more of a choice to be slow but tanky.
2. Attacking a Ranged magicka player is harder because the time to cover 40 meters is longer. After that gap is closed, stam players have a massive advantage now that shields take crits.

I ran heavy last patch, but I'm not now because of this speed change. Medium is much harder without passive dodge but doable. Only my magblade is in light and its debatable how well that works right now because of the swift nerf. But the root issue there has more to do with magblade being an antique from a different age of ESO when they were building a stealthy high damage melee range class and all class skills were magicka. They achieved their goals via stamina morphs and now with stamblade have forgot about furthering the magblade PvP identity. It's either a knockoff stamblade, a knockoff sorc, or a bomber.

It is still unfair that zergs can easily run over smaller groupa by having someone spam rapids.

Ariades_swe

No

mojomood

Burtan wrote: »

mojomood wrote: »

1. 100% Major Expedition uptime for stam characters is imbalanced. It means they dont need to run gap closers and allows heavy to be too strong. Medium to heavy speed difference is much larger now because of the sprint passives. Heavy is more of a choice to be slow but tanky.
2. Attacking a Ranged magicka player is harder because the time to cover 40 meters is longer. After that gap is closed, stam players have a massive advantage now that shields take crits.

I ran heavy last patch, but I'm not now because of this speed change. Medium is much harder without passive dodge but doable. Only my magblade is in light and its debatable how well that works right now because of the swift nerf. But the root issue there has more to do with magblade being an antique from a different age of ESO when they were building a stealthy high damage melee range class and all class skills were magicka. They achieved their goals via stamina morphs and now with stamblade have forgot about furthering the magblade PvP identity. It's either a knockoff stamblade, a knockoff sorc, or a bomber.

It is still unfair that zergs can easily run over smaller groupa by having someone spam rapids.

Totally unfair. That should be adjusted in the rapids skill though. Nothing that will affect solo, farming, pve, etc. Just give it an increased cost based on the number of people hit (the same way proxy det increased damage). The cost increases for every person other than yourself that is hit and lasts for 15 seconds. Buh-bye rapid spammers. They will adjust and may make multiple people run it and rotate, but that is a lot more coordination and skill slots spent. Meanwhile the small scale group can still escape.

Ender1310

I prefer BG's. In There the nerfs are fine. You only have a max of 4 people at a time snaring you and you are guaranteed to have 3 of your teammates backing you up. I look at Cyrodil as a realistic war type scenario where fights aren't really fights but objective based. If you want to have any fun in a rock paper scissor react and actually play scenario bg's are the way to go.

Ender1310

And yall that abused swift were cancerous. Nobody wants to have to chase something around moving that fast. Makes peoples eyes hurt. Slow down and fight. Dodge roll counter block shield. Play the game for the love of tamriel.

Rikumaru

yodased wrote: »

Just because you can choose to not join a group and play by yourself does not mean you deserve a crutch to help you.

Hahahaha, what about the numerous nerfs targeted at small scale / solo PvP to kill 1vX? How many crutches have been given across the years to zergs? What about the proc sets added as a crutch for players who can't hit abilities to still be able to deal damage? What a narrow minded comment.

As for speed pots the duration should be 25-30s, major expedition is not on the same level as major vitality. As for class skills with major expedition on them, they should be rebuffed to old durations and maybe even buffed past them on some of the skills such as double take or quick cloak.

DeadlyRecluse

I don't think snares are good for the game, and should continue to be reduced in strength, duration, and availability.

Speed meta was kinda rough too, though. A build with even mediocre investment in speed (and a source a snare immunity or cleanse) could disengage a little too easily, imo.

...a tertiary issue is the availability of major expy pots with useful effects to stam and a lack of the same for magicka, when most magicka specs already suffer in terms of mobility compared to their green counterparts.

Azramel

speed pots where the problem since they gave anyone who used them free 100% uptime of major expo. speed skills didnt need to get nerfed to hell. 4 seconds is a joke, especially when your snared and need to waste even more resources removing the snare. Your basically either going to run out of resources trying to use speed skills when you need to or have pleanty of resources to use them and hit like a wet noodle unless you load up on proc cheese.

montjie

Nah, I kinda like my char going 2km/h while 2-20 enemies are beating on me. Most from the safety of +/-30m range.

montjie

yodased wrote: »

Trian94 wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

Alright, here I go.

The nerfs to overall speed with swift and major expo duration with skills and pota makes sense balance wise. Now balance for a video game doesnt mean that literally you scale one person to another. If everyone can be op, it is not balance. Balance is weighing the advantage and power that one aspect of a playstyle gives compared to another aspect of a playstyle. In this regard, overall speed and duration was over performing compared to other movement and defensive mechanics

Issues with speed. In many games, speed comes at a high cost. Whether that be neglecting defenses, damage, or sustain. 30% movement speed with 3 swift in exchange for 2600 max resource (about 250 we equivalent) is not an equal tradeoff. Moving 30% faster at all times and taking 150ish damage off your spammable is a massive advantage, even disregarding the targeting issues. Now, you can still reach high levels of speed, but you have to change mundus, sets, armor types, and/or use sprint. These are more valid tradeoffs to be THE FAST.

Major expo uptime on pots was ridiculous compared to abilities or sets that gave the buff. Straight comparison is enough to see that. The ability nerfs just goes to show that they want speed to be in bursts, specifically built for, or to come at a higher cost.

No matter what they change, coordinated large groups will function better in cyro. That is how it will always be. Cyro is AvAvA. It is not designed to be for small group or solo players. Small group and solo do play a role though when it comes to disruption of the war, or just having fun. Even if ZoS made design choices specifically tailored for small group or solo, coordinated zergs will find a way to turn that into their advantage. PUG zergs can still be picked off or you die due to mispositioning. That's that.

What sources of snares are affecting you so heavily? afaik, the only passive snare is on dk warmth passive, the control and cc class. As a mDK player myself, other DKs are my biggest weakness due to this. It sucks but I'm trying to adapt. Other sources of snares should have a cost associated, which you counter with counter snare if building for immunity.

Bleeds and nee enchant mechanics suck.

That's my opinion over speed changes. Speed is still doable and effective, just gotta give up more for it.

First of all, I agree with what you said about the trade off which is why I suggested a value change as done to swift, so people dont move as fast. I said that the problem was the amount of increased speed you can stack, not control over it. The numbers can be adjusted in order to invite more build ideas with mundus stones etc for meaningful trade offs. But you forget something really important. What I will have to give up for speed in this patch as it is now (which i have done and tried non stop ever since Murkmire went live) will be the difference between being relevant or not because there are so many mechanics that are overpowered in this game. I'm with you on what you say but if I have to give up warrior (for example) and go steed for the speed, I won't be able to kill anyone rocking pirate skeleton or earthgores etc which are band aid mechanics saving people from mistakes. And that goes for everyone really. Because the game works with % dmg and dmg reduction which is a broken mechanic ignored. Plus before swift nobody complained about speed pots cause it wasn't that op if you really think about it

If a new player comes to the game and says, oh that guy is so fast how does he do it, the invariable answer would be bow on back bar and rapids/stam sorc.

Or speed pots....
Your posts reek of short sightedness, bias and (intentionally) bad framing but this one really went beyond.

Not only are you coincidentally leaving out the fact that speed pots would definitely be one of the potentially given anwers, you then continue to use a new players ignorance to the game as means to justify the nerfing of a very vital part of many players their ability to survive.

Your argument is complete horsedung because by that logic why stop there? Why not nerf stuns because new players don't know 'break free' is a thing.

Biro123

I like it how It is now.

My Magsorc can actually disengage from combat now reasonably often - which you'd kind of expect for a class that has 2 skill-slots used for mobility, passives from armour choice and a reasonable investment in Stam (for a mag class)..

That should never have been completely negated 100% of the time by chugging a pot and a single jewellery trait..

Yeah, can still get caught by gap-close spam, rapids spamming groups, ranged CC, or any stam toon during their shorter duration pot speed-buff - but then no one should have a permanent get-out-of-jail-free card.

Tlania

Fine with nerfing speed I hated been locked into one potion to play, now I'm locked into one mundus instead

Burtan

I would be happy with expedition abilities just giving a bit more uptime so you don't need to endlessly spam them over and over. 8s seems like a good duration to me. 4s buffs should only be on things like igneous shield mending buff since it can synergise with healing skills and make sense as part of a defensive rotation/combo. spamming blade cloak every 4s however is just silly.

If this cant happen then rapids should absolutely be nerfed so solo/smallscale at least have a chance of escaping the massive zergs going around. Today on Sotha Sil [PC] EU pact had full population against 1 bar and went around destroying anything in their path all stacked together. We need mobility to deal with things like this.

Edit 'Today on Sotha Sil PC EU'

Crixus8000

I just don't find the game fun anymore. It seems I'm unable to move in 90% of fights due to infinate snare and slow speed. I just don't enjoy solo play like this. If I wanted to facetank people I would have rolled a tank.

Juhasow

Lack of easily accesible speed buffs is not an issue. Amount of overtuned and easy to apply snares is. There is too many abilities that have snares as secondary effects.

Tlania

@Crixus8000 , I agree had a fight with DE today 4 of us vs their 25 all the ability's was snares/hard CC no light attacks no skills on us that wasn't a CC or had some snare to it, 4 players at the back spamming acid spray for the snare,,, wtf are we to do by the time u got major up and then forward your snared again and just wasted 6k stm.

Ocelot9x

As a PS4 user I’m kinda scared of the mobility nerf. It doesn’t consider class diversity. Stamina dk was already outshined by literally every other class when doing small scale pvp now it’s even worse since we lost the small mobility we had. Ofc,swift builds were disgusting but they just nerfed every form of mobility like wtf.
The only thing those changes will achieve is that we smallcalers will run the same build (dual wield) the same class (warden) and the same skills (still tornado,permafrost and subassault) to be able to keep doing what we are doing since 2 years,thanks to all the band aids zos invented to buff zergs (nerfs over nerfs,**** like earth gore and proc sets).

I miss the days wearing hundings or julianos,with everyone on his main fighting 4x people and occasionally winning. Now the same group (of course, the few that are still playing) have to reroll fotm every patch killing further build diversity.

TLDR: stop killing build diversity to raise the floor,since casuals/newbies will still get shwreckt but you’re killing the fun

Weathur

I'm not sure about 47.6 seconds, but the snares are absolutely ridiculous. You can hardly even MOVE anymore without purging constantly IF your class has a purge available. Snare immunity from skills like stampede needs to be increased to at LEAST 10 seconds, and potions should also be increased like you mentioned, but not as much in my opinion.

Movement speed being reduced to almost nothing makes for a horrible PvP experience for most people.

ximelolagnia

Ello there northarm stormborn, goku here, I have to disagree with bringing back the speed pot duration for a few reasons. I only think speed stacking should be uncapped so my mate puddingzebra can do his *** scroll running builds again :^D. One big reason i think it was good to nerf it is because any class with snare removal skills like forward momentum or dk wings or whatever was able to run endlessly at sonic speed around things like towers or that one wall with the staircase outside nikel endlessly till the zerg chasing them gave up. Forward momentum even with the nerf to 4 seconds is plenty enough to move around as a sorc or any class with minor/major expedition. I also think maybe it isn't as broken in no-cp where you play sure, i have chased you many times and know you are still pretty catchable and killable, however you should have seen what speed pots were like in vivec my dude.

Basically I think that stamsorcs are plenty speedy and survivable without the use of speed pots and I think they were a bit overkill when they lasted the whole duration, I have had no problems getting in and out of fights with just the use of bow roll passive or even just streak and hurricane on my tankier builds. You were borderline overpowered and definitely needed a nerf when you played with 47 sec speed pots. Also you are essentially trying to make people that slot snares and roots obsolete which is a no no in my opinion. That's neglecting the other side.

GL making sense of what I just typed I didn't proof read it. Love you

Edit - i spoke to your stamsorc friend tonight and i do agree that quick cloak needs a buff though! I mainly just disagree with the pot being rebuffed.

Crixus8000

ximelolagnia wrote: »

Forward momentum even with the nerf to 4 seconds is plenty enough to move around as a sorc or any class with minor/major expedition. I also think maybe it isn't as broken in no-cp where you play sure, i have chased you many times and know you are still pretty catchable and killable, however you should have seen what speed pots were like in vivec my dude.

4 seconds is so weak, especially having to use dizzy swing, I get about 1 dizzy off before I have to use forward again, hardly getting the chance to go offensive against groups who run lots of snares, and with the snare bug still in the game most of my fights I can't even move, I'm just stuck still.

And I run an orc, stamsorc with steed and I can't outrun anything it seems, losing major expedition and getting snared every 4 seconds means I'm so slow and wasting so much time using forward that people can catch me up so easily, los hasn't been possible for me since the patch, so I have had to build for insane tankiness but that doesn't really help or do anything with the current state of the game.

This is just my experience playing solo. Idk I just don't find this fun, moving like this and having to press a buff every 4 seconds (every 1-2 seconds usually because of the bug) makes the fighting seem so slowed down and boring. It's just forward, forward, forward, ult and hope for a kill then repeat.

Mayrael

yodased wrote: »

Far too long has alchemy been the bane of pvp.

Sure, you can say that the system allows for small scale and tree circiling, but thats not the overarching goal of openworld pvp.

The biggest problem is people got used to being on their zoom characters and loved the advantage it gave them over magicka classes.

Having major expedition, during combat, at 90-100% uptime is unbalanced and skewed.

Add into that several seconds of cc immunity with and a large boost to health regen and now its possible to not only be almost twice as fast, but also umable to be slowed down.

Remove your feelings and attachment to alchemy and honestly ask yourself, how is this "balanced".

Just because you can choose to not join a group and play by yourself does not mean you deserve a crutch to help you.

If you really are that talented to be able to fight solo, then you will adapt your strategy. If you find yourself unable to fight 5 or 6 people and win without speed pots, then it was speed pots making you able to do this, not skill.

The game is marketed towards, and paid for, by casual players. You know, the ones that all 1vX players dream about. If removing 100% uptime from major expedition makes it harder for you or any one person to kill a group of these money spenders, bet your ass they will do whatever they can to stop you from being able to do that.

Couldn't agree more. Good post.

IZZEFlameLash

Burtan wrote: »

mojomood wrote: »

1. 100% Major Expedition uptime for stam characters is imbalanced. It means they dont need to run gap closers and allows heavy to be too strong. Medium to heavy speed difference is much larger now because of the sprint passives. Heavy is more of a choice to be slow but tanky.
2. Attacking a Ranged magicka player is harder because the time to cover 40 meters is longer. After that gap is closed, stam players have a massive advantage now that shields take crits.

I ran heavy last patch, but I'm not now because of this speed change. Medium is much harder without passive dodge but doable. Only my magblade is in light and its debatable how well that works right now because of the swift nerf. But the root issue there has more to do with magblade being an antique from a different age of ESO when they were building a stealthy high damage melee range class and all class skills were magicka. They achieved their goals via stamina morphs and now with stamblade have forgot about furthering the magblade PvP identity. It's either a knockoff stamblade, a knockoff sorc, or a bomber.

It is still unfair that zergs can easily run over smaller groupa by having someone spam rapids.

Do you not play as a small group against larger groups to have fun and challenge? If not, then, I am afraid you are playing a wrong game.

Chilly-McFreeze

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

mojomood wrote: »

1. 100% Major Expedition uptime for stam characters is imbalanced. It means they dont need to run gap closers and allows heavy to be too strong. Medium to heavy speed difference is much larger now because of the sprint passives. Heavy is more of a choice to be slow but tanky.
2. Attacking a Ranged magicka player is harder because the time to cover 40 meters is longer. After that gap is closed, stam players have a massive advantage now that shields take crits.

I ran heavy last patch, but I'm not now because of this speed change. Medium is much harder without passive dodge but doable. Only my magblade is in light and its debatable how well that works right now because of the swift nerf. But the root issue there has more to do with magblade being an antique from a different age of ESO when they were building a stealthy high damage melee range class and all class skills were magicka. They achieved their goals via stamina morphs and now with stamblade have forgot about furthering the magblade PvP identity. It's either a knockoff stamblade, a knockoff sorc, or a bomber.

It is still unfair that zergs can easily run over smaller groupa by having someone spam rapids.

Do you not play as a small group against larger groups to have fun and challenge? If not, then, I am afraid you are playing a wrong game.

The big groups already have strength in numbers to do damage, heal or resurrect more easily. No reason to give them the edge in mobility over smaller groups as well. If that's your definition of a balanced game, well, then I am afraid you got this wrong.

Koensol

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

mojomood wrote: »

1. 100% Major Expedition uptime for stam characters is imbalanced. It means they dont need to run gap closers and allows heavy to be too strong. Medium to heavy speed difference is much larger now because of the sprint passives. Heavy is more of a choice to be slow but tanky.
2. Attacking a Ranged magicka player is harder because the time to cover 40 meters is longer. After that gap is closed, stam players have a massive advantage now that shields take crits.

I ran heavy last patch, but I'm not now because of this speed change. Medium is much harder without passive dodge but doable. Only my magblade is in light and its debatable how well that works right now because of the swift nerf. But the root issue there has more to do with magblade being an antique from a different age of ESO when they were building a stealthy high damage melee range class and all class skills were magicka. They achieved their goals via stamina morphs and now with stamblade have forgot about furthering the magblade PvP identity. It's either a knockoff stamblade, a knockoff sorc, or a bomber.

It is still unfair that zergs can easily run over smaller groupa by having someone spam rapids.

Do you not play as a small group against larger groups to have fun and challenge? If not, then, I am afraid you are playing a wrong game.

How can one enjoy a 'challenge' against a big group when the one counter they had (being outmaneuvered) is taken away, yet THEY get to keep their speed and mobility to completely swarm you and wreck you with snares and roots. The current game is a *** drag! It's not fun at all anymore. I hope ZOS is happy now that complete and utter zergling trash players have become empowered enough to compete against people who have evolved past spamming light attacks and mutagen.

BlackMadara

Speed and snare immunity are powerful buffs. They should be locked to shorter durations. This seen in many other games as well, for a reason.

The popularity of these buffs in the past invalidated other means of control for other players. Example, I play mDK. I didn't see a point in running talons if a player i was fighting could have almost permanent root and snare immunity. Now, i am testing it out on my bar. Talons is costly, and you should have to pay to be immune to them.

Now this dynamic changes in the face of zergs. I agree that facing a large group alone or in small man shouldn't have any other disadvantages. There are indeed an overabundance of snares on random skills which should probably be rebalance for a healthy game. Despite that, a coordinated zergs will always find a way to run a permanent snare or rooter. That is the power of numbers.

Against any number of opponents, a short term snare immunity and speed buff is still very effective for repositioning. If you are caught out in the open against a group you can take down, you should probably die. If you have smart positioning, speed can still help on kiting and funneling players. You shouldn't be able to freely run around at the speed of sound, long term, with a long snare immunity open field.