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Bring back the speed

Trian94
Trian94
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I decided to start this thread since I haven't seen any posts about it (maybe i'm blind).

To cut to the chase: Speed pots need to be reverted back to 47 secs of speed. Now before anyone gets triggered let me explain. I totally agree that speed needed a nerf and swift got nerfed as deserved because it brought the cap to 60% increased movement speed (70% for stamsorcs) basically making people unable to be hit by melee attacks most of the time which as we all understand was a problem. But as I see it the actual problem was the amount of speed u could stack, not the control over it.

I stepped into cyrodiil yesterday in the evening on my stamsorc (without speed pots), got in some fights and was barely able to move as I was snared to death drained of resources since I had to spam forward momentum and ball of lightning to get around as a solo player (even with a bow equipped). I dare not imagine what it is like for stamdks, stamplars since they have less mobility than a stamsorc. My point is that in this meta which consists of bleeds and snares (which has ben the case for a couple of patches actually) and now with enchant procs, the situation for stamina characters is "move or die".

Yes it has gotten out of hand with swift overperforming and that needed a change, but it would be MUCH better in my opinion if instead of nerfing control over speed Zenimax nerfed the values a little bit. For example if major expedition went from 30% to 20% the maximum speed one could get would be 38% (48% for stamsorcs) with 3 swift jewelry and major expedition, which isn't that great if you think about it. Most players can't afford to have 3 swift in their builds in both CP and No CP (bgs/sotha sil).

I truly believe that if this change was to be made instead of the current state, it would benefit balance greatly.


P.S: In my opinion Forward momentum is fine as it is
PC EU

Stamina Socerer main - Northam Stormborn
  • raistin87
    raistin87
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    Exactly. I fail to grasp why the ball groups are the only ones left with access to mobility.
  • Koensol
    Koensol
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    /signed. The biggest problem by far in this aspect though, is that snares are on literally everything and are completely without cooldown. If I would have my way, snares whould be a single purpose skill, not being tied to frakking spammables and ranged dots, and especially not to skill trees (looking at you, warmth passive). Reducing the duration is kind of pointless when you can just reapply them at will. This is terrible, terrible design and I have hated spammable snares in every other mmo I have played.
  • Moonsorrow
    Moonsorrow
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    /signed

    Fully agree. I wish speed was not nerfed so hard. Lately i feel many changes are too overkill when could just fix the problem where it really is at, not explode everything up so drastically when there is not even a problem. :/
    PC/EU
    Grey Host, IC & bgs
    Solo & small scale
    1600+ CP
  • Burtan
    Burtan
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    yodased wrote: »
    Far too long has alchemy been the bane of pvp.

    Sure, you can say that the system allows for small scale and tree circiling, but thats not the overarching goal of openworld pvp.

    The biggest problem is people got used to being on their zoom characters and loved the advantage it gave them over magicka classes.

    Having major expedition, during combat, at 90-100% uptime is unbalanced and skewed.

    Add into that several seconds of cc immunity with and a large boost to health regen and now its possible to not only be almost twice as fast, but also umable to be slowed down.

    Remove your feelings and attachment to alchemy and honestly ask yourself, how is this "balanced".

    Just because you can choose to not join a group and play by yourself does not mean you deserve a crutch to help you.

    If you really are that talented to be able to fight solo, then you will adapt your strategy. If you find yourself unable to fight 5 or 6 people and win without speed pots, then it was speed pots making you able to do this, not skill.

    The game is marketed towards, and paid for, by casual players. You know, the ones that all 1vX players dream about. If removing 100% uptime from major expedition makes it harder for you or any one person to kill a group of these money spenders, bet your ass they will do whatever they can to stop you from being able to do that.

    Except its not 5 or 6 people. Its 20 or 30 people all with procs and infused enchants to instantly melt you. Those 20 or 30 dont need further advantagea over smaller numbers.
    Bahlokdaan PC EU
    Solo/Smallscale PvP Player
    PvP Stamsorc Warden main
    PvE DK/Warden Tank main
  • Jaxaxo
    Jaxaxo
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    /signed of course
    Forum War - pro AC side

    EU PC Azura Star/Sotha Sil/Bahlokdaan/Ravenwatch
    Triggered Tryhards / Aetherius Art / LND / DC-PD

    DC - Frostitute magden
    AD - Pees-under-Trees magden
    DC - Lemme Dark Deal stamsorc
    EP - Lemme Dark Déal stamsorc
    Youtube
  • Burtan
    Burtan
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    yodased wrote: »
    Far too long has alchemy been the bane of pvp.

    Sure, you can say that the system allows for small scale and tree circiling, but thats not the overarching goal of openworld pvp.

    The biggest problem is people got used to being on their zoom characters and loved the advantage it gave them over magicka classes.

    Having major expedition, during combat, at 90-100% uptime is unbalanced and skewed.

    Add into that several seconds of cc immunity with and a large boost to health regen and now its possible to not only be almost twice as fast, but also umable to be slowed down.

    Remove your feelings and attachment to alchemy and honestly ask yourself, how is this "balanced".

    Just because you can choose to not join a group and play by yourself does not mean you deserve a crutch to help you.

    If you really are that talented to be able to fight solo, then you will adapt your strategy. If you find yourself unable to fight 5 or 6 people and win without speed pots, then it was speed pots making you able to do this, not skill.

    The game is marketed towards, and paid for, by casual players. You know, the ones that all 1vX players dream about. If removing 100% uptime from major expedition makes it harder for you or any one person to kill a group of these money spenders, bet your ass they will do whatever they can to stop you from being able to do that.

    30% move speed counts as a zoom character? Nerf rapids asap the please.
    Bahlokdaan PC EU
    Solo/Smallscale PvP Player
    PvP Stamsorc Warden main
    PvE DK/Warden Tank main
  • Trian94
    Trian94
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    NobleX35 wrote: »
    They should have just implemented a movement speed cap that was separate from sprint speed cap. 40% would have been a good start since you can have both major and minor expedition and reach the cap.

    Alternatively they should have implemented a diminishing returns system so that stacking lots of sources of speed was not as beneficial.

    Of course they took the worst and laziest route by nerfing all sources of expedition and their durations.

    Intresting idea, I agree with you
    PC EU

    Stamina Socerer main - Northam Stormborn
  • JerkMctwerk
    /Signed
    ZoS. U done goofed!
    Edited by JerkMctwerk on October 25, 2018 1:58PM
  • yodased
    yodased
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    Burtan wrote: »
    yodased wrote: »
    Far too long has alchemy been the bane of pvp.

    Sure, you can say that the system allows for small scale and tree circiling, but thats not the overarching goal of openworld pvp.

    The biggest problem is people got used to being on their zoom characters and loved the advantage it gave them over magicka classes.

    Having major expedition, during combat, at 90-100% uptime is unbalanced and skewed.

    Add into that several seconds of cc immunity with and a large boost to health regen and now its possible to not only be almost twice as fast, but also umable to be slowed down.

    Remove your feelings and attachment to alchemy and honestly ask yourself, how is this "balanced".

    Just because you can choose to not join a group and play by yourself does not mean you deserve a crutch to help you.

    If you really are that talented to be able to fight solo, then you will adapt your strategy. If you find yourself unable to fight 5 or 6 people and win without speed pots, then it was speed pots making you able to do this, not skill.

    The game is marketed towards, and paid for, by casual players. You know, the ones that all 1vX players dream about. If removing 100% uptime from major expedition makes it harder for you or any one person to kill a group of these money spenders, bet your ass they will do whatever they can to stop you from being able to do that.

    Except its not 5 or 6 people. Its 20 or 30 people all with procs and infused enchants to instantly melt you. Those 20 or 30 dont need further advantagea over smaller numbers.

    In what world or game is it ever a possibility to enter into a situation against 10 or 20 people alone, and EXPECT to win.

    Come on, also nerf rapids? Why you use that to get away from people, you can't fight with rapids, with speed pots you are cutting snares in half at least, on a stam sorc you are negating snares completely.

    Alchemy is not balanced, there is no argument that will hold water to say that Immov, Speed and Lingering Health at a 75% uptime is balanced.
    Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.
  • weedgenius
    weedgenius
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    And give my warden wings their 10 second duration back :cry: That was one of the last things I had going for me!
    PS4 NA
    Better Homes & Gardens
  • iCaliban
    iCaliban
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    I fully agree if they give mag a speed pot that is actually useful.
  • killahsin
    killahsin
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    No i actually like the game slowed down to the rate it currently is. Although with the enchant proc situation as it is the ttk has become rediculous.
    Liam12548 wrote: »
    See, I don't think they should revert the speed pot change fully. However I will say this; the fact that they equated major expedition to major vitality shows they do not understand the mechanics of combat in their game. Major expedition is nothing like major vitality, and as such shouldn't be the same duration buff. They should have reduced the expedition on potions to 30 seconds, so there was still an option to use them but you'd have to cope with a downtime. The nerfs to expedition sources such as bow, quick cloak, boundless storm, etc were made without any real concept of combat in the game, and were totally out of line. The really issue was multiple swift on builds that made them so fast they couldn't be targeted with melee abilities. Nobody complained about speed pots or major expedition before swift was in the game.

    tl;dr - Pots SHOULD have been reduced to 30s duration, and there was no need to nerf quick cloak, bow, boundless storm, VO/other sets. The issue was swift.

    The major exped/vitality thing looks to me to be a simple database flagging situation. Has anyone clarified with the devs the intention of the major vitality changes? There are also flagging issues between versions of major exped and other skills that have or had morphs that induced major exped but no longer do. This is why i took that change as simply a flagging issue because i can almost guarantee the morphs issue is a flagging issue.
    Edited by killahsin on October 25, 2018 3:36PM
  • Minno
    Minno
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    Alright, here I go.

    The nerfs to overall speed with swift and major expo duration with skills and pota makes sense balance wise. Now balance for a video game doesnt mean that literally you scale one person to another. If everyone can be op, it is not balance. Balance is weighing the advantage and power that one aspect of a playstyle gives compared to another aspect of a playstyle. In this regard, overall speed and duration was over performing compared to other movement and defensive mechanics

    Issues with speed. In many games, speed comes at a high cost. Whether that be neglecting defenses, damage, or sustain. 30% movement speed with 3 swift in exchange for 2600 max resource (about 250 we equivalent) is not an equal tradeoff. Moving 30% faster at all times and taking 150ish damage off your spammable is a massive advantage, even disregarding the targeting issues. Now, you can still reach high levels of speed, but you have to change mundus, sets, armor types, and/or use sprint. These are more valid tradeoffs to be THE FAST.

    Major expo uptime on pots was ridiculous compared to abilities or sets that gave the buff. Straight comparison is enough to see that. The ability nerfs just goes to show that they want speed to be in bursts, specifically built for, or to come at a higher cost.

    No matter what they change, coordinated large groups will function better in cyro. That is how it will always be. Cyro is AvAvA. It is not designed to be for small group or solo players. Small group and solo do play a role though when it comes to disruption of the war, or just having fun. Even if ZoS made design choices specifically tailored for small group or solo, coordinated zergs will find a way to turn that into their advantage. PUG zergs can still be picked off or you die due to mispositioning. That's that.

    What sources of snares are affecting you so heavily? afaik, the only passive snare is on dk warmth passive, the control and cc class. As a mDK player myself, other DKs are my biggest weakness due to this. It sucks but I'm trying to adapt. Other sources of snares should have a cost associated, which you counter with counter snare if building for immunity.

    Bleeds and nee enchant mechanics suck.

    That's my opinion over speed changes. Speed is still doable and effective, just gotta give up more for it.

    I would agree but the speed is still a problem on the builds where people were complaining about in the first place.
    And shields already had heavy counters.
  • Sylosi
    Sylosi
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    Trian94 wrote: »
    I asked myself if alchemy is balanced and yes it is. Because everyone else can use it

    Everyone being able to use something does not make something balanced, e.g - if you had an undaunted skill that did a million damage, everyone could use it, but it would be a very long way from balanced.
  • Trian94
    Trian94
    ✭✭✭✭
    Alright, here I go.

    The nerfs to overall speed with swift and major expo duration with skills and pota makes sense balance wise. Now balance for a video game doesnt mean that literally you scale one person to another. If everyone can be op, it is not balance. Balance is weighing the advantage and power that one aspect of a playstyle gives compared to another aspect of a playstyle. In this regard, overall speed and duration was over performing compared to other movement and defensive mechanics

    Issues with speed. In many games, speed comes at a high cost. Whether that be neglecting defenses, damage, or sustain. 30% movement speed with 3 swift in exchange for 2600 max resource (about 250 we equivalent) is not an equal tradeoff. Moving 30% faster at all times and taking 150ish damage off your spammable is a massive advantage, even disregarding the targeting issues. Now, you can still reach high levels of speed, but you have to change mundus, sets, armor types, and/or use sprint. These are more valid tradeoffs to be THE FAST.

    Major expo uptime on pots was ridiculous compared to abilities or sets that gave the buff. Straight comparison is enough to see that. The ability nerfs just goes to show that they want speed to be in bursts, specifically built for, or to come at a higher cost.

    No matter what they change, coordinated large groups will function better in cyro. That is how it will always be. Cyro is AvAvA. It is not designed to be for small group or solo players. Small group and solo do play a role though when it comes to disruption of the war, or just having fun. Even if ZoS made design choices specifically tailored for small group or solo, coordinated zergs will find a way to turn that into their advantage. PUG zergs can still be picked off or you die due to mispositioning. That's that.

    What sources of snares are affecting you so heavily? afaik, the only passive snare is on dk warmth passive, the control and cc class. As a mDK player myself, other DKs are my biggest weakness due to this. It sucks but I'm trying to adapt. Other sources of snares should have a cost associated, which you counter with counter snare if building for immunity.

    Bleeds and nee enchant mechanics suck.

    That's my opinion over speed changes. Speed is still doable and effective, just gotta give up more for it.

    First of all, I agree with what you said about the trade off which is why I suggested a value change as done to swift, so people dont move as fast. I said that the problem was the amount of increased speed you can stack, not control over it. The numbers can be adjusted in order to invite more build ideas with mundus stones etc for meaningful trade offs. But you forget something really important. What I will have to give up for speed in this patch as it is now (which i have done and tried non stop ever since Murkmire went live) will be the difference between being relevant or not because there are so many mechanics that are overpowered in this game. I'm with you on what you say but if I have to give up warrior (for example) and go steed for the speed, I won't be able to kill anyone rocking pirate skeleton or earthgores etc which are band aid mechanics saving people from mistakes. And that goes for everyone really. Because the game works with % dmg and dmg reduction which is a broken mechanic ignored. Plus before swift nobody complained about speed pots cause it wasn't that op if you really think about it
    PC EU

    Stamina Socerer main - Northam Stormborn
  • ChunkyCat
    ChunkyCat
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    ✭✭✭✭
    ZoS don’t care.
  • Trian94
    Trian94
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    yodased wrote: »
    Scorched Earth policy is not a good way to acheive any sort of balance. Just because everyone has equal access to potions does mean that their affect is not overly performing for some.

    A magic character would have to gimp themselves of significant resource gain as well as regen to be able to run a stam based potion.

    Anyone who is trying to argue that speed/vitality/immov pots are balanced because a magic character can use them is simply rationalizing why they want to keep the system the same.

    30% movement speed at all times above a normal player is a ridiculous advantage, especially when it is combined with choke points and cancelled dawnbreaks. The second is the fault of the chasing player, sure, but being able to position ones self through a choke faster than anyone else without being slowed then turning and ult dumping, that is the mainstay of the "small man". Move faster than everyone else, lead them to a choke point and then ult dump.

    Obviously this does not coincide with the developers idea of how pvp should work, so they changed that.

    another thing, you realize how many people are now having difficulty with uppercut? Welcome to the rest of the players who do not understand the power of alchemy in PVP. Is it their fault for not knowing? Maybe, but the point remains that when you are buffed with major expedition, landing dizzy swing is significantly easier than without. Your movement and positioning ability allows you that advantage.

    People want to always put me in a box of hating solo players or small scale, which couldn't be more untrue. I just feel that they are irrelevant to the overall balance of an AvAvA game and tend to make the most noise.

    Some would say that the 1vX bring people into the game, and that very well may be true, but what do you think happens to the "normal or casual" player that logs into pvp, and then is polished off by a "pro" along with 5 or 6 of their friends.

    Some of them may use that to get better, but a lot, if not all are simply going to write pvp off as a place they can not go.

    No I don't think that it's balanced because magicka chars can use the same pots. I agree that the previous amount of speed when stacking swift with major exped. was broken but that was also cause of the 8 seconds of snare immunity provided by forward momentum, which I stated I find ok as it is. Combined with a reduced major expedition value and swift it will be ok. Also every class is suposed to be different, especially magicka and stamina. BlackMadara stated it very accurately when he said that tradeoffs should be made. If u want to fight a stamina character who has speed (which again if reduced as a value in a proper way will not be op ) put a gap closer on. Magdk has chains, nightblades have lotus fan etc. The only class that doesn't have one is magicka warden which in my opinion should be adressed. I was using major expedition without any swift on stam sorc (40% more speed) and magdks with chains would keep up even though I was using ball of lightning which absorbs chains. So I'm sure a reducted speed value but 100% wouldn't be as bad as you think
    Edited by Trian94 on October 25, 2018 5:02PM
    PC EU

    Stamina Socerer main - Northam Stormborn
  • Trian94
    Trian94
    ✭✭✭✭
    yodased wrote: »
    Trian94 wrote: »
    Alright, here I go.

    The nerfs to overall speed with swift and major expo duration with skills and pota makes sense balance wise. Now balance for a video game doesnt mean that literally you scale one person to another. If everyone can be op, it is not balance. Balance is weighing the advantage and power that one aspect of a playstyle gives compared to another aspect of a playstyle. In this regard, overall speed and duration was over performing compared to other movement and defensive mechanics

    Issues with speed. In many games, speed comes at a high cost. Whether that be neglecting defenses, damage, or sustain. 30% movement speed with 3 swift in exchange for 2600 max resource (about 250 we equivalent) is not an equal tradeoff. Moving 30% faster at all times and taking 150ish damage off your spammable is a massive advantage, even disregarding the targeting issues. Now, you can still reach high levels of speed, but you have to change mundus, sets, armor types, and/or use sprint. These are more valid tradeoffs to be THE FAST.

    Major expo uptime on pots was ridiculous compared to abilities or sets that gave the buff. Straight comparison is enough to see that. The ability nerfs just goes to show that they want speed to be in bursts, specifically built for, or to come at a higher cost.

    No matter what they change, coordinated large groups will function better in cyro. That is how it will always be. Cyro is AvAvA. It is not designed to be for small group or solo players. Small group and solo do play a role though when it comes to disruption of the war, or just having fun. Even if ZoS made design choices specifically tailored for small group or solo, coordinated zergs will find a way to turn that into their advantage. PUG zergs can still be picked off or you die due to mispositioning. That's that.

    What sources of snares are affecting you so heavily? afaik, the only passive snare is on dk warmth passive, the control and cc class. As a mDK player myself, other DKs are my biggest weakness due to this. It sucks but I'm trying to adapt. Other sources of snares should have a cost associated, which you counter with counter snare if building for immunity.

    Bleeds and nee enchant mechanics suck.

    That's my opinion over speed changes. Speed is still doable and effective, just gotta give up more for it.

    First of all, I agree with what you said about the trade off which is why I suggested a value change as done to swift, so people dont move as fast. I said that the problem was the amount of increased speed you can stack, not control over it. The numbers can be adjusted in order to invite more build ideas with mundus stones etc for meaningful trade offs. But you forget something really important. What I will have to give up for speed in this patch as it is now (which i have done and tried non stop ever since Murkmire went live) will be the difference between being relevant or not because there are so many mechanics that are overpowered in this game. I'm with you on what you say but if I have to give up warrior (for example) and go steed for the speed, I won't be able to kill anyone rocking pirate skeleton or earthgores etc which are band aid mechanics saving people from mistakes. And that goes for everyone really. Because the game works with % dmg and dmg reduction which is a broken mechanic ignored. Plus before swift nobody complained about speed pots cause it wasn't that op if you really think about it

    Everyone keeps saying no one complained about speed pots, but that is such a strawman because most players did not even know about them or their over performance.

    If a new player comes to the game and says, oh that guy is so fast how does he do it, the invariable answer would be bow on back bar and rapids/stam sorc.

    So that player grinds out rapids and slots it and realizes wait a minute this goes away when I attack and that guy is moving that much aster than me and attacking, so the accusations of speed hacks come into play.

    That guy is running faster than my horse is such a common thread, how anyone could say no one complained about speed is ridiculous.

    How many threads about people running around rocks, trees, outposts, resources pop up because no one understood the only thing making that possible was alchemy.

    Alchemy is the root cause of many problems in PvP.

    If you are moving 30% faster than me and can re position yourself by walking through me and you can turn 30% faster than I can, that isn't balance.

    SO fine, I have to use speed pots too, but now I have 20% less regen on my defense and offense resources and I lose a very large chunk of resource return as well.

    So while you get nothing but benefits from this potion, I have to use the same thing to be on a lesser playing field.

    This is not balance, this is dumb

    And again, I said that BEFORE SWIFT nobody complained. I already agreed that swift was a major problem. Speed pots have been around ever since One Tamriel or before (if i'm not mistaken) but nobody complained about them then or up until summerset bringing the op speed in the game. I'm talking about reducing speed but not control over it. What's hard to undestand? Even with the values I provided out of the top of my head the speed value for a non swift using char would be 20% more and for a stamsorc 30% which is the same as a non-stamsorc character with major exped. and no swift. Is that so op? I don't think so.
    PC EU

    Stamina Socerer main - Northam Stormborn
  • yodased
    yodased
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    Trian94 wrote: »
    yodased wrote: »
    Scorched Earth policy is not a good way to acheive any sort of balance. Just because everyone has equal access to potions does mean that their affect is not overly performing for some.

    A magic character would have to gimp themselves of significant resource gain as well as regen to be able to run a stam based potion.

    Anyone who is trying to argue that speed/vitality/immov pots are balanced because a magic character can use them is simply rationalizing why they want to keep the system the same.

    30% movement speed at all times above a normal player is a ridiculous advantage, especially when it is combined with choke points and cancelled dawnbreaks. The second is the fault of the chasing player, sure, but being able to position ones self through a choke faster than anyone else without being slowed then turning and ult dumping, that is the mainstay of the "small man". Move faster than everyone else, lead them to a choke point and then ult dump.

    Obviously this does not coincide with the developers idea of how pvp should work, so they changed that.

    another thing, you realize how many people are now having difficulty with uppercut? Welcome to the rest of the players who do not understand the power of alchemy in PVP. Is it their fault for not knowing? Maybe, but the point remains that when you are buffed with major expedition, landing dizzy swing is significantly easier than without. Your movement and positioning ability allows you that advantage.

    People want to always put me in a box of hating solo players or small scale, which couldn't be more untrue. I just feel that they are irrelevant to the overall balance of an AvAvA game and tend to make the most noise.

    Some would say that the 1vX bring people into the game, and that very well may be true, but what do you think happens to the "normal or casual" player that logs into pvp, and then is polished off by a "pro" along with 5 or 6 of their friends.

    Some of them may use that to get better, but a lot, if not all are simply going to write pvp off as a place they can not go.

    No I don't think that it's balanced because magicka chars can use the same pots. I agree that the previous amount of speed when stacking swift with major exped. was broken but that was also cause of the 8 seconds of snare immunity provided by forward momentum, which I stated I find ok as it is. Combined with a reduced major expedition value and swift it will be ok. Also every class is suposed to be different, especially magicka and stamina. BlackMadara stated it very accurately when he said that tradeoffs should be made. If u want to fight a stamina character who has speed (which again if reduced as a value in a proper way will not be op ) put a gap closer on. Magdk has chains, nightblades have lotus fan etc. The only class that doesn't have one is magicka warden which in my opinion should be adressed. I was using major expedition without any swift on stam sorc (40% more speed) and magdks with chains would keep up even though I was using ball of lightning which absorbs chains. So I'm sure a reducted speed value but 100% wouldn't be as bad as you think

    MagDK was keeping up with you because they also had major expedition from chaining your lightning balls.
    Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.
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