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Bring back the speed

  • Mihael
    Mihael
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    yodased wrote: »
    Scorched Earth policy is not a good way to acheive any sort of balance. Just because everyone has equal access to potions does mean that their affect is not overly performing for some.

    A magic character would have to gimp themselves of significant resource gain as well as regen to be able to run a stam based potion.

    Anyone who is trying to argue that speed/vitality/immov pots are balanced because a magic character can use them is simply rationalizing why they want to keep the system the same.

    30% movement speed at all times above a normal player is a ridiculous advantage, especially when it is combined with choke points and cancelled dawnbreaks. The second is the fault of the chasing player, sure, but being able to position ones self through a choke faster than anyone else without being slowed then turning and ult dumping, that is the mainstay of the "small man". Move faster than everyone else, lead them to a choke point and then ult dump.

    Obviously this does not coincide with the developers idea of how pvp should work, so they changed that.

    another thing, you realize how many people are now having difficulty with uppercut? Welcome to the rest of the players who do not understand the power of alchemy in PVP. Is it their fault for not knowing? Maybe, but the point remains that when you are buffed with major expedition, landing dizzy swing is significantly easier than without. Your movement and positioning ability allows you that advantage.

    People want to always put me in a box of hating solo players or small scale, which couldn't be more untrue. I just feel that they are irrelevant to the overall balance of an AvAvA game and tend to make the most noise.

    Some would say that the 1vX bring people into the game, and that very well may be true, but what do you think happens to the "normal or casual" player that logs into pvp, and then is polished off by a "pro" along with 5 or 6 of their friends.

    Some of them may use that to get better, but a lot, if not all are simply going to write pvp off as a place they can not go.

    Small mans and 1vxers are usually fighting outnumbered so I don’t see how them using speed pots to get to a choke point faster is bad when they are fighting a lot more people. The major expedition nerfs only hurt people who don’t like to run around in Zerg balls
  • Trian94
    Trian94
    ✭✭✭✭
    yodased wrote: »
    Trian94 wrote: »
    yodased wrote: »
    Scorched Earth policy is not a good way to acheive any sort of balance. Just because everyone has equal access to potions does mean that their affect is not overly performing for some.

    A magic character would have to gimp themselves of significant resource gain as well as regen to be able to run a stam based potion.

    Anyone who is trying to argue that speed/vitality/immov pots are balanced because a magic character can use them is simply rationalizing why they want to keep the system the same.

    30% movement speed at all times above a normal player is a ridiculous advantage, especially when it is combined with choke points and cancelled dawnbreaks. The second is the fault of the chasing player, sure, but being able to position ones self through a choke faster than anyone else without being slowed then turning and ult dumping, that is the mainstay of the "small man". Move faster than everyone else, lead them to a choke point and then ult dump.

    Obviously this does not coincide with the developers idea of how pvp should work, so they changed that.

    another thing, you realize how many people are now having difficulty with uppercut? Welcome to the rest of the players who do not understand the power of alchemy in PVP. Is it their fault for not knowing? Maybe, but the point remains that when you are buffed with major expedition, landing dizzy swing is significantly easier than without. Your movement and positioning ability allows you that advantage.

    People want to always put me in a box of hating solo players or small scale, which couldn't be more untrue. I just feel that they are irrelevant to the overall balance of an AvAvA game and tend to make the most noise.

    Some would say that the 1vX bring people into the game, and that very well may be true, but what do you think happens to the "normal or casual" player that logs into pvp, and then is polished off by a "pro" along with 5 or 6 of their friends.

    Some of them may use that to get better, but a lot, if not all are simply going to write pvp off as a place they can not go.

    No I don't think that it's balanced because magicka chars can use the same pots. I agree that the previous amount of speed when stacking swift with major exped. was broken but that was also cause of the 8 seconds of snare immunity provided by forward momentum, which I stated I find ok as it is. Combined with a reduced major expedition value and swift it will be ok. Also every class is suposed to be different, especially magicka and stamina. BlackMadara stated it very accurately when he said that tradeoffs should be made. If u want to fight a stamina character who has speed (which again if reduced as a value in a proper way will not be op ) put a gap closer on. Magdk has chains, nightblades have lotus fan etc. The only class that doesn't have one is magicka warden which in my opinion should be adressed. I was using major expedition without any swift on stam sorc (40% more speed) and magdks with chains would keep up even though I was using ball of lightning which absorbs chains. So I'm sure a reducted speed value but 100% wouldn't be as bad as you think

    MagDK was keeping up with you because they also had major expedition from chaining your lightning balls.

    Which they still have for the amount of time needed to keep up with anyone unless line of sight is broken
    PC EU

    Stamina Socerer main - Northam Stormborn
  • Trian94
    Trian94
    ✭✭✭✭
    ccmedaddy wrote: »
    People on the forums: "solo play and small scale are literally impossible without 100% uptime on Major Expedition!"

    When magicka players ask for magicka speed pots: "NO BECAUSE BALANCE"

    I'd love to see a pot like that tbh
    PC EU

    Stamina Socerer main - Northam Stormborn
  • Galalin
    Galalin
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    +1 YODA
  • Trian94
    Trian94
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    yodased wrote: »
    Trian94 wrote: »
    yodased wrote: »
    Trian94 wrote: »
    Alright, here I go.

    The nerfs to overall speed with swift and major expo duration with skills and pota makes sense balance wise. Now balance for a video game doesnt mean that literally you scale one person to another. If everyone can be op, it is not balance. Balance is weighing the advantage and power that one aspect of a playstyle gives compared to another aspect of a playstyle. In this regard, overall speed and duration was over performing compared to other movement and defensive mechanics

    Issues with speed. In many games, speed comes at a high cost. Whether that be neglecting defenses, damage, or sustain. 30% movement speed with 3 swift in exchange for 2600 max resource (about 250 we equivalent) is not an equal tradeoff. Moving 30% faster at all times and taking 150ish damage off your spammable is a massive advantage, even disregarding the targeting issues. Now, you can still reach high levels of speed, but you have to change mundus, sets, armor types, and/or use sprint. These are more valid tradeoffs to be THE FAST.

    Major expo uptime on pots was ridiculous compared to abilities or sets that gave the buff. Straight comparison is enough to see that. The ability nerfs just goes to show that they want speed to be in bursts, specifically built for, or to come at a higher cost.

    No matter what they change, coordinated large groups will function better in cyro. That is how it will always be. Cyro is AvAvA. It is not designed to be for small group or solo players. Small group and solo do play a role though when it comes to disruption of the war, or just having fun. Even if ZoS made design choices specifically tailored for small group or solo, coordinated zergs will find a way to turn that into their advantage. PUG zergs can still be picked off or you die due to mispositioning. That's that.

    What sources of snares are affecting you so heavily? afaik, the only passive snare is on dk warmth passive, the control and cc class. As a mDK player myself, other DKs are my biggest weakness due to this. It sucks but I'm trying to adapt. Other sources of snares should have a cost associated, which you counter with counter snare if building for immunity.

    Bleeds and nee enchant mechanics suck.

    That's my opinion over speed changes. Speed is still doable and effective, just gotta give up more for it.

    First of all, I agree with what you said about the trade off which is why I suggested a value change as done to swift, so people dont move as fast. I said that the problem was the amount of increased speed you can stack, not control over it. The numbers can be adjusted in order to invite more build ideas with mundus stones etc for meaningful trade offs. But you forget something really important. What I will have to give up for speed in this patch as it is now (which i have done and tried non stop ever since Murkmire went live) will be the difference between being relevant or not because there are so many mechanics that are overpowered in this game. I'm with you on what you say but if I have to give up warrior (for example) and go steed for the speed, I won't be able to kill anyone rocking pirate skeleton or earthgores etc which are band aid mechanics saving people from mistakes. And that goes for everyone really. Because the game works with % dmg and dmg reduction which is a broken mechanic ignored. Plus before swift nobody complained about speed pots cause it wasn't that op if you really think about it

    Everyone keeps saying no one complained about speed pots, but that is such a strawman because most players did not even know about them or their over performance.

    If a new player comes to the game and says, oh that guy is so fast how does he do it, the invariable answer would be bow on back bar and rapids/stam sorc.

    So that player grinds out rapids and slots it and realizes wait a minute this goes away when I attack and that guy is moving that much aster than me and attacking, so the accusations of speed hacks come into play.

    That guy is running faster than my horse is such a common thread, how anyone could say no one complained about speed is ridiculous.

    How many threads about people running around rocks, trees, outposts, resources pop up because no one understood the only thing making that possible was alchemy.

    Alchemy is the root cause of many problems in PvP.

    If you are moving 30% faster than me and can re position yourself by walking through me and you can turn 30% faster than I can, that isn't balance.

    SO fine, I have to use speed pots too, but now I have 20% less regen on my defense and offense resources and I lose a very large chunk of resource return as well.

    So while you get nothing but benefits from this potion, I have to use the same thing to be on a lesser playing field.

    This is not balance, this is dumb

    And again, I said that BEFORE SWIFT nobody complained. I already agreed that swift was a major problem. Speed pots have been around ever since One Tamriel or before (if i'm not mistaken) but nobody complained about them then or up until summerset bringing the op speed in the game. I'm talking about reducing speed but not control over it. What's hard to undestand? Even with the values I provided out of the top of my head the speed value for a non swift using char would be 20% more and for a stamsorc 30% which is the same as a non-stamsorc character with major exped. and no swift. Is that so op? I don't think so.

    And I have the same counterpoint as I orginally did, people WERE complaining A LOT about speed before swift, they just didn't know what to complain about.

    Swift + Alchemy brought it to the forefront of conversation, gave it a name and a label to allow people to talk about it.

    Do a quick search on this forum for speedhacks or run speed and you will see.

    Moving at any speed above normal speed is advantageous. That is just simple logic. If you can move faster than me, you have the upper hand in the fight.

    I don't care if its 5%, if you can keep that 5% at all times with no drawback because you are getting your main resource back as well as a large heal, and I have no way to keep the same speed without gimping myself and using the same alchemy combination you are, that is broken, That is not balance, that is giving a clear advantage to one style of play over another.

    It really is that simple, speed = advantage and stam based characters have relied on it since day 1. Now they are used to being the fast ones, but with the sets released and the skills changed, speed was the last hold out of pvp of yesterday.

    So, lets bring back dynamic ultimate gain, that was balanced because everyone could use it right?

    My magdk thinks so ;)

    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion I guess. Probably my Cyrodiil experience is different than yours. For what is worth I'll just say that it's the first time in this game that I can't move when fighting people in open world. Not when forward momentum wasn't used, not when medium armor was meta, not with one tamriel procs etc. Now with speed control (not speed itself) nerfed to the ground.
    PC EU

    Stamina Socerer main - Northam Stormborn
  • Mintaka5
    Mintaka5
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    And while they're at reverting this, please revert sorc shields

    #buffsorcs
  • Cres
    Cres
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    yodased wrote: »
    another thing, you realize how many people are now having difficulty with uppercut? Welcome to the rest of the players who do not understand the power of alchemy in PVP. Is it their fault for not knowing? Maybe, but the point remains that when you are buffed with major expedition, landing dizzy swing is significantly easier than without. Your movement and positioning ability allows you that advantage.

    No, people are having issues with dizzying because ZOS changed how it and other channeled attacks work (sniper, dizzying, dark flare). You have to now maintain valid targeting on an enemy the entire duration of the animation, previously it was only a beginning and end check.
  • yodased
    yodased
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mihael wrote: »
    yodased wrote: »
    Scorched Earth policy is not a good way to acheive any sort of balance. Just because everyone has equal access to potions does mean that their affect is not overly performing for some.

    A magic character would have to gimp themselves of significant resource gain as well as regen to be able to run a stam based potion.

    Anyone who is trying to argue that speed/vitality/immov pots are balanced because a magic character can use them is simply rationalizing why they want to keep the system the same.

    30% movement speed at all times above a normal player is a ridiculous advantage, especially when it is combined with choke points and cancelled dawnbreaks. The second is the fault of the chasing player, sure, but being able to position ones self through a choke faster than anyone else without being slowed then turning and ult dumping, that is the mainstay of the "small man". Move faster than everyone else, lead them to a choke point and then ult dump.

    Obviously this does not coincide with the developers idea of how pvp should work, so they changed that.

    another thing, you realize how many people are now having difficulty with uppercut? Welcome to the rest of the players who do not understand the power of alchemy in PVP. Is it their fault for not knowing? Maybe, but the point remains that when you are buffed with major expedition, landing dizzy swing is significantly easier than without. Your movement and positioning ability allows you that advantage.

    People want to always put me in a box of hating solo players or small scale, which couldn't be more untrue. I just feel that they are irrelevant to the overall balance of an AvAvA game and tend to make the most noise.

    Some would say that the 1vX bring people into the game, and that very well may be true, but what do you think happens to the "normal or casual" player that logs into pvp, and then is polished off by a "pro" along with 5 or 6 of their friends.

    Some of them may use that to get better, but a lot, if not all are simply going to write pvp off as a place they can not go.

    Small mans and 1vxers are usually fighting outnumbered so I don’t see how them using speed pots to get to a choke point faster is bad when they are fighting a lot more people. The major expedition nerfs only hurt people who don’t like to run around in Zerg balls

    I wasn't trying to insinuate bad or good, if that came across that way I apologize. What the failed point tried to be was that this is the only thing that made that possible.

    Good, bad, indifferent its what enabled small man to fight outnumbered 2:1 sometimes 3:1.

    I'm really not trying to be antagonistic, I appreciate everyone's choices in their gaming style. I am not the ESO police, nor would I want to be, but the point remains that speed is particularly useful in this game, especially in close quarters.

    Using terrain and line of sight and chokepoints and kill fields is really good strategy and watching people that are good at it is entertaining as hell and they have my respect.

    BUT, those things are made possible largely because of alchemy.

    Also, a magicka speed pot doesn't fix anything, it just homogenizes the alchemy to the point of if you are not using this potion, you are at a clear disadvantage.

    I think the main disconnect is for a very long time, people were able to fight against insane odds and were able to not only survive, but to win.

    While that may be an amazing feeling for the people doing the winning, it brings down the entire experience across the board for everyone else. That trickle effect is felt everywhere, from the lack of new players matriculating into pvp and the toxic landscape that usually doesn't allow civilized discourse as we are having now.

    I'm all for giving you the tools needed to fight odds against you, and if you are good enough, to survive or win, but in all cases, alchemy was the fulcrum that this pendulum swung from.
    Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.
  • Burtan
    Burtan
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    Speed pots weren't giving any real advantage since expedition was already easily gained from skills and rapids which are spammed by zergs anyways. A whole potion trait was sacrificed for doing so too.

    ive been spotted several times by zergs who immediately mount and spam rapids just to hunt me down 20v1 halfway across the map. I will be cc spammed and chained over and over which already negates my mobility enough.

    Is this what we want? strength based purely on numbers? nothing to aspire to? no skill level to reach? just type lfg in the campaign your faction overpopulates 3 bars to 1 and hunt for solos! such fun!

    I for one think that speed pots should be reverted and magicka speed pots should be added. Snare immunity should also be made easily accessible across all classes on useful abilities.

    Retired 1vxer @Drogul of PC EU sotha sil.
    Come zerg me <3
    Bahlokdaan PC EU
    Solo/Smallscale PvP Player
    PvP Stamsorc Warden main
    PvE DK/Warden Tank main
  • ATomiX96
    ATomiX96
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    take my agree you dirty roleplayer
  • Trian94
    Trian94
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    yodased wrote: »
    Mihael wrote: »
    yodased wrote: »
    Scorched Earth policy is not a good way to acheive any sort of balance. Just because everyone has equal access to potions does mean that their affect is not overly performing for some.

    A magic character would have to gimp themselves of significant resource gain as well as regen to be able to run a stam based potion.

    Anyone who is trying to argue that speed/vitality/immov pots are balanced because a magic character can use them is simply rationalizing why they want to keep the system the same.

    30% movement speed at all times above a normal player is a ridiculous advantage, especially when it is combined with choke points and cancelled dawnbreaks. The second is the fault of the chasing player, sure, but being able to position ones self through a choke faster than anyone else without being slowed then turning and ult dumping, that is the mainstay of the "small man". Move faster than everyone else, lead them to a choke point and then ult dump.

    Obviously this does not coincide with the developers idea of how pvp should work, so they changed that.

    another thing, you realize how many people are now having difficulty with uppercut? Welcome to the rest of the players who do not understand the power of alchemy in PVP. Is it their fault for not knowing? Maybe, but the point remains that when you are buffed with major expedition, landing dizzy swing is significantly easier than without. Your movement and positioning ability allows you that advantage.

    People want to always put me in a box of hating solo players or small scale, which couldn't be more untrue. I just feel that they are irrelevant to the overall balance of an AvAvA game and tend to make the most noise.

    Some would say that the 1vX bring people into the game, and that very well may be true, but what do you think happens to the "normal or casual" player that logs into pvp, and then is polished off by a "pro" along with 5 or 6 of their friends.

    Some of them may use that to get better, but a lot, if not all are simply going to write pvp off as a place they can not go.

    Small mans and 1vxers are usually fighting outnumbered so I don’t see how them using speed pots to get to a choke point faster is bad when they are fighting a lot more people. The major expedition nerfs only hurt people who don’t like to run around in Zerg balls

    I wasn't trying to insinuate bad or good, if that came across that way I apologize. What the failed point tried to be was that this is the only thing that made that possible.

    Good, bad, indifferent its what enabled small man to fight outnumbered 2:1 sometimes 3:1.

    I'm really not trying to be antagonistic, I appreciate everyone's choices in their gaming style. I am not the ESO police, nor would I want to be, but the point remains that speed is particularly useful in this game, especially in close quarters.

    Using terrain and line of sight and chokepoints and kill fields is really good strategy and watching people that are good at it is entertaining as hell and they have my respect.

    BUT, those things are made possible largely because of alchemy.

    Also, a magicka speed pot doesn't fix anything, it just homogenizes the alchemy to the point of if you are not using this potion, you are at a clear disadvantage.

    I think the main disconnect is for a very long time, people were able to fight against insane odds and were able to not only survive, but to win.

    While that may be an amazing feeling for the people doing the winning, it brings down the entire experience across the board for everyone else. That trickle effect is felt everywhere, from the lack of new players matriculating into pvp and the toxic landscape that usually doesn't allow civilized discourse as we are having now.

    I'm all for giving you the tools needed to fight odds against you, and if you are good enough, to survive or win, but in all cases, alchemy was the fulcrum that this pendulum swung from.

    It didnt come across like that mate. Obviously we have different opinions. But I doubt that this is overpowered because even with alchemy being overpowered according to you, every day there are times when all of us 1vXers lose when facing bad odds. I don't want to be invincible or anything. My argument is that these changes impair the play style of solo/smallscalers who are stamina in this patch (I fully wish for magicka to experience the same balance i'm fighting for on behalf of stamina, just wanted to say that) which shouldn't be the case because it's only natural for a skilled player to be more likely to survive in bad odds vs weaker/newer players. Of course you can't 1vx a bunch of good players but don't get the idea that I'm intrested in fighting noobs, I just don't find zerging enjoyable and the changes kill solo play leaving zergsurfing as an option. That's all
    PC EU

    Stamina Socerer main - Northam Stormborn
  • Gilvoth
    Gilvoth
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    right now feels like im allways crawling in Mud in both sneak and running.
    please bring back high speeds. i need to be able to move Fast.

    Edited by Gilvoth on October 25, 2018 5:58PM
    rest assured, that i did read your response to my feedback comment(s), i always do. and unless i respond back to your comment directly, then i will always stand by my original feedback statement.
  • Trian94
    Trian94
    ✭✭✭✭
    Depends if the 10 guys are bad enough. I've won plenty 1v10 fights in towers or with good line of sight just because they were bad. But regardless of skill everyone uses snare abilities on most classes because that's what people teach them to do. If they make a good play and kill me i'm fine with it, but they just kill skilled players just by slowing them down while basically not trying at all
    PC EU

    Stamina Socerer main - Northam Stormborn
  • Mihael
    Mihael
    ✭✭✭✭
    yodased wrote: »
    Mihael wrote: »
    yodased wrote: »
    Scorched Earth policy is not a good way to acheive any sort of balance. Just because everyone has equal access to potions does mean that their affect is not overly performing for some.

    A magic character would have to gimp themselves of significant resource gain as well as regen to be able to run a stam based potion.

    Anyone who is trying to argue that speed/vitality/immov pots are balanced because a magic character can use them is simply rationalizing why they want to keep the system the same.

    30% movement speed at all times above a normal player is a ridiculous advantage, especially when it is combined with choke points and cancelled dawnbreaks. The second is the fault of the chasing player, sure, but being able to position ones self through a choke faster than anyone else without being slowed then turning and ult dumping, that is the mainstay of the "small man". Move faster than everyone else, lead them to a choke point and then ult dump.

    Obviously this does not coincide with the developers idea of how pvp should work, so they changed that.

    another thing, you realize how many people are now having difficulty with uppercut? Welcome to the rest of the players who do not understand the power of alchemy in PVP. Is it their fault for not knowing? Maybe, but the point remains that when you are buffed with major expedition, landing dizzy swing is significantly easier than without. Your movement and positioning ability allows you that advantage.

    People want to always put me in a box of hating solo players or small scale, which couldn't be more untrue. I just feel that they are irrelevant to the overall balance of an AvAvA game and tend to make the most noise.

    Some would say that the 1vX bring people into the game, and that very well may be true, but what do you think happens to the "normal or casual" player that logs into pvp, and then is polished off by a "pro" along with 5 or 6 of their friends.

    Some of them may use that to get better, but a lot, if not all are simply going to write pvp off as a place they can not go.

    Small mans and 1vxers are usually fighting outnumbered so I don’t see how them using speed pots to get to a choke point faster is bad when they are fighting a lot more people. The major expedition nerfs only hurt people who don’t like to run around in Zerg balls

    I wasn't trying to insinuate bad or good, if that came across that way I apologize. What the failed point tried to be was that this is the only thing that made that possible.

    Good, bad, indifferent its what enabled small man to fight outnumbered 2:1 sometimes 3:1.

    I'm really not trying to be antagonistic, I appreciate everyone's choices in their gaming style. I am not the ESO police, nor would I want to be, but the point remains that speed is particularly useful in this game, especially in close quarters.

    Using terrain and line of sight and chokepoints and kill fields is really good strategy and watching people that are good at it is entertaining as hell and they have my respect.

    BUT, those things are made possible largely because of alchemy.

    Also, a magicka speed pot doesn't fix anything, it just homogenizes the alchemy to the point of if you are not using this potion, you are at a clear disadvantage.

    I think the main disconnect is for a very long time, people were able to fight against insane odds and were able to not only survive, but to win.

    While that may be an amazing feeling for the people doing the winning, it brings down the entire experience across the board for everyone else. That trickle effect is felt everywhere, from the lack of new players matriculating into pvp and the toxic landscape that usually doesn't allow civilized discourse as we are having now.

    I'm all for giving you the tools needed to fight odds against you, and if you are good enough, to survive or win, but in all cases, alchemy was the fulcrum that this pendulum swung from.

    If your problem is with alchemy being so important than zos should give us class skills that allows us to do what alchemy used to but instead they need them

    Also if you have ever tried to small scale/1vx you know it’s not easy and most of the time you end up getting zerged down so I think people who choose to play like should be rewarded and giving tools to do this (To a reasonable extent I’m not saying 1 player should be able to take out a whole raid or anything) because frankly it takes more skills and knowledge about the game then just running in a 30 man group spamming light attacks

  • yodased
    yodased
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mihael wrote: »
    yodased wrote: »
    Mihael wrote: »
    yodased wrote: »
    Scorched Earth policy is not a good way to acheive any sort of balance. Just because everyone has equal access to potions does mean that their affect is not overly performing for some.

    A magic character would have to gimp themselves of significant resource gain as well as regen to be able to run a stam based potion.

    Anyone who is trying to argue that speed/vitality/immov pots are balanced because a magic character can use them is simply rationalizing why they want to keep the system the same.

    30% movement speed at all times above a normal player is a ridiculous advantage, especially when it is combined with choke points and cancelled dawnbreaks. The second is the fault of the chasing player, sure, but being able to position ones self through a choke faster than anyone else without being slowed then turning and ult dumping, that is the mainstay of the "small man". Move faster than everyone else, lead them to a choke point and then ult dump.

    Obviously this does not coincide with the developers idea of how pvp should work, so they changed that.

    another thing, you realize how many people are now having difficulty with uppercut? Welcome to the rest of the players who do not understand the power of alchemy in PVP. Is it their fault for not knowing? Maybe, but the point remains that when you are buffed with major expedition, landing dizzy swing is significantly easier than without. Your movement and positioning ability allows you that advantage.

    People want to always put me in a box of hating solo players or small scale, which couldn't be more untrue. I just feel that they are irrelevant to the overall balance of an AvAvA game and tend to make the most noise.

    Some would say that the 1vX bring people into the game, and that very well may be true, but what do you think happens to the "normal or casual" player that logs into pvp, and then is polished off by a "pro" along with 5 or 6 of their friends.

    Some of them may use that to get better, but a lot, if not all are simply going to write pvp off as a place they can not go.

    Small mans and 1vxers are usually fighting outnumbered so I don’t see how them using speed pots to get to a choke point faster is bad when they are fighting a lot more people. The major expedition nerfs only hurt people who don’t like to run around in Zerg balls

    I wasn't trying to insinuate bad or good, if that came across that way I apologize. What the failed point tried to be was that this is the only thing that made that possible.

    Good, bad, indifferent its what enabled small man to fight outnumbered 2:1 sometimes 3:1.

    I'm really not trying to be antagonistic, I appreciate everyone's choices in their gaming style. I am not the ESO police, nor would I want to be, but the point remains that speed is particularly useful in this game, especially in close quarters.

    Using terrain and line of sight and chokepoints and kill fields is really good strategy and watching people that are good at it is entertaining as hell and they have my respect.

    BUT, those things are made possible largely because of alchemy.

    Also, a magicka speed pot doesn't fix anything, it just homogenizes the alchemy to the point of if you are not using this potion, you are at a clear disadvantage.

    I think the main disconnect is for a very long time, people were able to fight against insane odds and were able to not only survive, but to win.

    While that may be an amazing feeling for the people doing the winning, it brings down the entire experience across the board for everyone else. That trickle effect is felt everywhere, from the lack of new players matriculating into pvp and the toxic landscape that usually doesn't allow civilized discourse as we are having now.

    I'm all for giving you the tools needed to fight odds against you, and if you are good enough, to survive or win, but in all cases, alchemy was the fulcrum that this pendulum swung from.

    If your problem is with alchemy being so important than zos should give us class skills that allows us to do what alchemy used to but instead they need them

    Also if you have ever tried to small scale/1vx you know it’s not easy and most of the time you end up getting zerged down so I think people who choose to play like should be rewarded and giving tools to do this (To a reasonable extent I’m not saying 1 player should be able to take out a whole raid or anything) because frankly it takes more skills and knowledge about the game then just running in a 30 man group spamming light attacks

    Fair enough, and for what its worth, if you have ever seen me in pvp its more than likely me getting destroyed alone or with a few friends.

    I am not one that enjoys the 24 man group too much and I don't join them, BUT I understand that this is not the intended design of the battle field.

    The intended design is one that a lot of people wish wasn't and keep trying to change, but it's never changed.

    You are actively going against what the intention of the battle is and want to be rewarded for that, this is the main disconnect between solo/small scale/1vX players.

    It's like playing tennis with a significantly smaller racket and wanting concessions for that choice, when the regulation racket is available for you without penalty.

    You gimp yourself willingly and then want help

    edit: Just want to acknowledge and thank everyone involved in this discussion for keeping it classy. I know we are all passionate and have disagreeing opinions, but its critical we talk to each other and figure this out. Nothing but respect for the players that have the skill to do the amazing things we see on youtube, but we gotta come to some kind of arrangement that suits everyone a bit more than we currently have.

    I may disagree with you on fundamental things, but I respect your opinion and do not take it lightly or dismiss it.
    Edited by yodased on October 25, 2018 6:28PM
    Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.
  • yodased
    yodased
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    Kadoin wrote: »
    Sorry, I don't miss the speed meta so I can honestly say I disagree. Considering even on live right now with only 30% speed increase the target system is buggy when you move a certain way I'm not discussing on the forums, I don't think anyone should have it 100% up without REAL sacrifice.

    Also, you can call yourself whatever you want and try to act like those pots weren't overpowered before Summerset, but if that is so, why does it make such a large difference in your gameplay? Why do you need to crutch on it if its not overpowered? If it's the sole difference between you winning or dying 1vX what does that really say about it?

    The forums always are entertaining...Watch someone call me a noob or a zergling, can't wait to :D

    @Kadoin you noob zergling carebear snowflake .

    Got that out of the way for ya, the anticipation must have been killing you. :dizzy:

    Obviously they were the thing that seperated the good players from the players that seemed ungodly, but as with anything, if you have 100% of something and you take 5% and give it to someone else, the one with 100% is going to have a rationally acceptable reaction to that.

    The smart ones understand they still have 95%, the selfish ones demand 100% or bust.

    Alchemy is the biggest problem in PvP.

    I would love to see a campaign with only alliance pots available.

    Want immov and health? You got it. Want weapon power and stam? You got it, want spell power and magic? Sure.

    The combination of buffs in alchemy destroys PvP balance more than it inherently was
    Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.
  • Bosov
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    ccmedaddy wrote: »
    People on the forums: "solo play and small scale are literally impossible without 100% uptime on Major Expedition!"

    When magicka players ask for magicka speed pots: "NO BECAUSE BALANCE"

    They have other ways... sorcs have streak and could slot lightning form for super high mobilty. Mag nb has cripple which increases your own speed and lowers the opponents speed. Mag warden has the wings.

    It is not like every mag character has to be slow.

    Also in solo play a big zerg will get on their mounts and use rapids to chase me as a solo player. No amount of sprintspeed could deal with that. The difference now is that i can only slowly jog away from them while being spammed with snares or ranged abilities.
    Edited by Bosov on October 25, 2018 7:15PM
    Xbox One - EU - GT : Bosov
    PC - EU - @Bosov91

    ESO Highight :
    https://twitter.com/SlashLurk/status/895068339273310208

  • ccmedaddy
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    Bosov wrote: »
    ccmedaddy wrote: »
    People on the forums: "solo play and small scale are literally impossible without 100% uptime on Major Expedition!"

    When magicka players ask for magicka speed pots: "NO BECAUSE BALANCE"

    They have other ways... sorcs have streak and could slot lightning form for super high mobilty. Mag nb has cripple which increases your own speed and lowers the opponents speed. Mag warden has the wings.

    It is not like every mag character has to be slow.

    Also in solo play a big zerg will get on their mounts and use rapids to chase me as a solo player. No amount of sprintspeed could deal with that. The difference now is that i can only slowly jog away from them while being spammed with snares or ranged abilities.
    1) I like how you conveniently left magDKs and magplars out of it.
    2) You do realize there are other sources of Major Expedition besides speed pots available for stam, right? So going by your logic (which is that alternative sources of mobility are just as good as speed pots), why are you suddenly crippled by the fact that speed pots have been nerfed?
    Edited by ccmedaddy on October 25, 2018 7:32PM
  • Bosov
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    yodased wrote: »
    Bosov wrote: »
    ccmedaddy wrote: »
    People on the forums: "solo play and small scale are literally impossible without 100% uptime on Major Expedition!"

    When magicka players ask for magicka speed pots: "NO BECAUSE BALANCE"

    They have other ways... sorcs have streak and could slot lightning form for super high mobilty. Mag nb has cripple which increases your own speed and lowers the opponents speed. Mag warden has the wings.

    It is not like every mag character has to be slow.

    Also in solo play a big zerg will get on their mounts and use rapids to chase me as a solo player. No amount of sprintspeed could deal with that. The difference now is that i can only slowly jog away from them while being spammed with snares or ranged abilities.

    I can understand the logic here, but there is a large flaw here. These are not the same thing by any means. A sorc using streak to catch up to a maximum run speed is using a increasing cost skill for diminishing returns of distance travelled vs cast cost.

    A sorc is going to run dry on magic way before a speedster runs out of stamina, and even if they DO run out of stamina, they can simply pop a stam pot while still having major and minor expedition up.

    This is the disconnect, people think that just because there is something similar, albeit worse, that its ok.

    One potion giving you 100% uptime of major expedition is broken in its own right, just that. Adding in lingering health and 10 seconds of cc immunity is just broken.


    I get it but doesnt it make sense that a stamina character has the speed advantage? Magicka has other advantages like damage shields (atleast had) or be able to mostly use class abilities?

    In my opinion it is just the swift which was too good.. i never used twift jewelry but before they got introduced the minor and major speedbuff were just fine. The worst thing about it is that zos took another helpfull tool for solo/smallgroup players away.... this has been going on patch after patch after patch.

    They could also just have added a new ingredient so magicka could make speed + magic return + cc immunity. For me the fast combat is what makes eso a fun game.

    Being slow and immobile isnt fun to me... ill experience that when i get old.
    Edited by Bosov on October 25, 2018 7:37PM
    Xbox One - EU - GT : Bosov
    PC - EU - @Bosov91

    ESO Highight :
    https://twitter.com/SlashLurk/status/895068339273310208

  • Rianai
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    Speed pots were never a "secret" nor are they something stam exclusive (I used them on my magblade). Yes, there are no mag specific speed pots - which was the most common complaint about them - but i don't remember players having an issue with their existence in general.
    I never liked how speed pots were a much better source of Major Expedition than any skill (generally not a fan of pots being that important, not just speed, because it makes ingame wealth a factor in PvP), but never thought the solution would be such a harsh nerf to the pots. At least not without providing reasonable alternatives. I'd rather have more good options, but instead everything got gutted, even skills that were already underwhelming. 4s buff duration is just a bad joke.
    I also don't agree that speed is op or even an huge advantage in general. In 1vs1 for example i rather used spell power pots for better dmg and sustain and as far is i know speed pots weren't banned from duelling competitions (unlike certain other pots!). This is not a racing game after all. Speed is mostly important when outnumbered. It was a tool that helped to survive in those situations and it became more and more relevant, because other survival tools got nerfed/zergs got buffed successively. But just because something is important, maybe even mandatory for certain playstyles, doesn't mean it is op. Otherwise you might as well consider anything op.

    But yes, it is becoming more and more obvious that ZOS wants everyone in Cyrodiil to zerg (which their servers can't handle ...) and solo and small scale players aren't welcome. Well, i got the message and took the appropriate measures.
  • HeroOfNone
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    I'll start out by saying that the speed nerf they did does not sound like what was intended with diminishing returns. I was expecting something more like the % speed would increase the % Sprint cost (thus strengthening well-fitted & medium armor) or something where the strongest speed increase is the only one that applies. Not sure they would have done well, but it would achieve a cost/benefit for stacking too high, which sounded like the intention.

    Now with the current changes to speed I can't say it's a terrible thing. Solo players that were constantly relying on speed as a crutch must carefully pick out their targets, plan an escape, and be careful of their position. I've seen a lot of one trick ponies having a difficult time with this, for example the nightblades that would snipe + cloak almost on rotation and who would rush back as soon as someone engaged them. These types of tactics, glass cannon builds, and low sustain builds relied heavily on keeping speed up to escape or to lead people around to waste stamina sprinting.

    Now if you want to 1vX you'll have to be a bit more skilled and tactical. The sets and pots you use won't do it for you. I like this sort of change where a majority can't simple 1vX players based on a few tactics. I'm not totally against 1vX players, but it shouldn't be easy either.

    Also the change to dodging I think also has an effect players don't want to mention but I'm happy with as well. The dodge window is smaller, meaning you can't necessarily roll dodge forever without timing it against another's attack.

    The complaints on torags, probably justified. It's a set I'd like to see reduced in efficiency but it's such a cornerstone in PVE I think players would scream blood murder. Maybe if onl armor sets that were dropped/crafted in PVP worked in cyrodiil there wouldn't be such a pain, but I can already hear the gold geared players complaining about that...

    As for ball zergs, are people actually balling up or are we saying its a ball when they all have to go through the same choke point? I would define a ball zerg as 10 or more players in 10m of each other, where I see others claim it's a ball zerg for 24 man group going through a breech in a keep wall to later setup sieges. Or that same 24 man, spread out, going after that unlucky nightblade who messed up a hank kill and now has the war and crashing down on them. In either case, I think the 24 man just wins, sorry for the guy caugyht in the wave.

    Anyway, just some of my opinions this patch.
    Herfi Driderkitty of the Aldmeri Dominion
    Find me on : Twitch | Youtube | Twitter | Reddit
  • Rianai
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    LOL @ 1vsX being too easy with pre nerf speed pots. If the majority of players were able to 1vsX with such a simple and easy accessible crutch, then there wouldn't be enough players that can be 1vsX'ed for 1vsX to be a thing.
    Edited by Rianai on October 25, 2018 7:56PM
  • yodased
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    Rianai wrote: »
    LOL @ 1vsX being too easy with pre nerf speed pots. If the majority of players were able to 1vsX with such a simple and easy accessible crutch, then there wouldn't be enough players that can be 1vsX'ed for 1vsX to be a thing.

    Did anyone say anything about it being easy? No.

    All i'm saying is it made it possible, and that I couldn't do it and I have nothing but respect for the people that can.

    No one here is taking away anyone's obvious skill at using line of sight, terrain, bad choices and mistakes by the enemy, choke points, kill fields, or any of the other myriad things that separate the great players from the good and the good from the bad.

    There will always be players of higher skill than me for instance, and they will beat me every single time that I fight them, that is just the way it is. I know this, I accept this and I still fight them because I get better every time I lose.

    There have been no attacks on person here, just an idea sharing, why would you take it there?
    Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.
  • Crixus8000
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    I fully agree. My experience in cyro atm has just been terrible. I am so slow that 90% of the time I can't fight back or escape. Solo play is very boring right now. I'm still not sure about forward momentum though, 4 seconds is so short that as a solo player I don't really have much time to go offensive since I am snared all the time.
    Edited by Crixus8000 on October 25, 2018 8:09PM
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