Are we talking about PvE ? BG ? Cyro ? Duel ?Pre-murkmire, dual wield already had two functional weapon enchants, it was just badly coded so the game was trying to proc one at random without checking if it was currently on cooldown. Result was unreliable and with bad luck the game could sometimes keep trying to proc berserker 5 times in a row while the other enchant was ready to fire.
Also, people who will now start complaining about dw getting two enchants need to remember balance between weapon skill lines was always asymmetrical. Now that enchant focused build is going to stop being game-wide BiS,, we need to go back to looking at the big picture.
You're the one who is new to the DW enchant discussion; those of us who have cared about balance between DW, 2h and bow have been discussing this imbalance for a long time. You can go back and look at my discussions in summerset PTS if you want.
It's never been hard to proc offhand enchants. Well, maybe if you're bad. Twin slashes proced offhand before, and every other light attack proced offhand.
The "big picture" is exactly what's being ignored by these recent enchant changes - that DW is leagues ahead of 2h or bow/bow and part of that is caused by two full-strength enchants.
ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »Greetings! Today the combat team would like to update you on some of our plans in regards to the popular topic and debates; enchantments and poisons! Recently we introduced a new system that allowed enchants and poisons to follow a better line of logic for triggering, which in turn has given us much more direct control on when and where they can fire off. In that process we originally allowed any Weapon Attack (any weapon skill line ability, Light Attack, or Heavy Attack) to trigger an enchant or a poison, and we've been closely monitoring feedback on how it has affected the game in many different avenues. Even after the recent fix to prevent multiple enchants from firing simultaneously, we're still not completely happy with how much damage enchants are granting with low effort input.
In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.
It's worth mentioning that a few of these issues were already highlighted during the PTS, and you may be upset that they went to Live without adjustments. We admit that we could have done a better job at taking in feedback and reacting accordingly to it. Amidst the large number of changes we made, we did not give enough time to this specific issue itself, as our attention was focused on other areas of feedback. Moving forward with our Class Rep Program and the new NDA in line, we have high hopes that the class representatives themselves will feel more empowered to continue pointing out larger topics that you, the community, are passionate about; so we can better adjust ourselves to tackling the issues that are most important.
Are we talking about PvE ? BG ? Cyro ? Duel ?Pre-murkmire, dual wield already had two functional weapon enchants, it was just badly coded so the game was trying to proc one at random without checking if it was currently on cooldown. Result was unreliable and with bad luck the game could sometimes keep trying to proc berserker 5 times in a row while the other enchant was ready to fire.
Also, people who will now start complaining about dw getting two enchants need to remember balance between weapon skill lines was always asymmetrical. Now that enchant focused build is going to stop being game-wide BiS,, we need to go back to looking at the big picture.
You're the one who is new to the DW enchant discussion; those of us who have cared about balance between DW, 2h and bow have been discussing this imbalance for a long time. You can go back and look at my discussions in summerset PTS if you want.It's never been hard to proc offhand enchants. Well, maybe if you're bad. Twin slashes proced offhand before, and every other light attack proced offhand.
I didn't say hard, i said unreliable, enough to drop from 100% theoretical maximum infused berserker uptime to sub-70% in a PvP context. So i yes i agree DW is now stronger.The "big picture" is exactly what's being ignored by these recent enchant changes - that DW is leagues ahead of 2h or bow/bow and part of that is caused by two full-strength enchants.
The change from Dual wield getting nearly 2 enchants (pre-murkmire unreliability) to the current situation of two full enchants is not nearly as big as the two-handed weapons counting as 2 set pieces, yet this specific change never had that much effect on weapon skill lines balance and for a good reason : the true source of power, where metas are made and BiS decided, are the skills.
Darkenarlol wrote: »so...pvp crying gonna cost me
chants proc for my pve master staff from clench...
not surprised
hope u r happy now
Olupajmibanan wrote: »So, isn't preventing single target dots from firing enchants basically a complete revert to the enchant change?
The only change is Glyph of Weapon Damage procing form abilities.
Let's have a look at the changes that were made. Then the changes to the changes. Then the proposed future changes to the changed changes.Fixed several issues with Poisons and Weapon Enchantments.
- All Poisons now correctly proc 20% of the time when any Light Attack, Heavy Attack, or weapon ability deals damage.
- Food and Drink will now provide the correct stat bonuses if they are consumed while you have a Poison equipped.
- All Weapon Enchantments now correctly proc 100% of the time when not on cooldown when any Light Attack, Heavy Attack, or weapon ability deals damage.
- When Dual Wielding, casting a weapon ability can now proc the Weapon Enchantment of either weapon. The system will favor proccing a Weapon Enchantment that is not on cooldown.
^^^ Live release Murkmire patch notes
- Fixed an issue where both of your Dual Wield weapon enchantments were proccing from a single damage from Light Attack, Heavy Attack, or Weapon Ability.
Developer Comment:
Abilities that deal damage multiple times with a single cast, such as Flurry which has 5 hits or Twin Slashes which has 2 direct damage hits and several damage over time ticks, can proc both of your weapon enchantments over those hits. But each isolated instance of damage should only be able to proc one weapon enchantment at a time.
^^^ Incremental patch notesIn a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.
^^^ Gilliam's most recent statement
@Olupajmibanan Currently, the only "reversion" of the changes have been so that dual-wield enchants don't proc simultaneously upon cooldown. I.E. One light attack proccing both enchants. A skill like rending slashes, with two simultaneous direct damage attacks will still proc both enchants.
As for the proposed changes. Only single-target, target-based DoTs will be affected. For Destro staff - wall of elements = unchanged, bow - endless hail = unchanged. I can't give examples on S&B or 2H as I don't utilize that playstyle on any of my characters.
TL;DR - The bottom line is the proposed change is not a "complete revert" of the enchantment changes made for Murkmire.
By "two-handed weapons" i meant 2H/Bow/Staves. On the detail, yes 2H was heavily impacted by the LA nerf that probably happened because ZoS thought is was dominant enough in PvP at the time.Are we talking about PvE ? BG ? Cyro ? Duel ?Pre-murkmire, dual wield already had two functional weapon enchants, it was just badly coded so the game was trying to proc one at random without checking if it was currently on cooldown. Result was unreliable and with bad luck the game could sometimes keep trying to proc berserker 5 times in a row while the other enchant was ready to fire.
Also, people who will now start complaining about dw getting two enchants need to remember balance between weapon skill lines was always asymmetrical. Now that enchant focused build is going to stop being game-wide BiS,, we need to go back to looking at the big picture.
You're the one who is new to the DW enchant discussion; those of us who have cared about balance between DW, 2h and bow have been discussing this imbalance for a long time. You can go back and look at my discussions in summerset PTS if you want.It's never been hard to proc offhand enchants. Well, maybe if you're bad. Twin slashes proced offhand before, and every other light attack proced offhand.
I didn't say hard, i said unreliable, enough to drop from 100% theoretical maximum infused berserker uptime to sub-70% in a PvP context. So i yes i agree DW is now stronger.The "big picture" is exactly what's being ignored by these recent enchant changes - that DW is leagues ahead of 2h or bow/bow and part of that is caused by two full-strength enchants.
The change from Dual wield getting nearly 2 enchants (pre-murkmire unreliability) to the current situation of two full enchants is not nearly as big as the two-handed weapons counting as 2 set pieces, yet this specific change never had that much effect on weapon skill lines balance and for a good reason : the true source of power, where metas are made and BiS decided, are the skills.
That's ***. 2 set pieces was a very small buff for 2h, and in fact that same release 2h got nerfed into ineffectiveness by nerfs to it's light attack damage. The set piece change didn't even really offset the LA nerf.
See, we do agree skills and weapon ability sets (Asylum, vMA/vDSA bow, vDSA axes, etc..) are at least as much defining than some other attributes like base wpn dmg, LA scaling, enchants, etc..The reason 2 set pieces happened was because the crying of magicka staff users, not 2h users who already had a good front bar option in asylum. 2h has been weaker and weaker every patch starting with Summerset; its peak was dragonbones.
Edit: and to add one more thing about your comment on "the true source of power, where metas are made and BiS decided, are the skills", what a load of BS! Did you type it up and think it sounds cool? I'll give you one guess on how many DW skills are on a DPS bar.
Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »Greetings! Today the combat team would like to update you on some of our plans in regards to the popular topic and debates; enchantments and poisons! Recently we introduced a new system that allowed enchants and poisons to follow a better line of logic for triggering, which in turn has given us much more direct control on when and where they can fire off. In that process we originally allowed any Weapon Attack (any weapon skill line ability, Light Attack, or Heavy Attack) to trigger an enchant or a poison, and we've been closely monitoring feedback on how it has affected the game in many different avenues. Even after the recent fix to prevent multiple enchants from firing simultaneously, we're still not completely happy with how much damage enchants are granting with low effort input.
In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.
It's worth mentioning that a few of these issues were already highlighted during the PTS, and you may be upset that they went to Live without adjustments. We admit that we could have done a better job at taking in feedback and reacting accordingly to it. Amidst the large number of changes we made, we did not give enough time to this specific issue itself, as our attention was focused on other areas of feedback. Moving forward with our Class Rep Program and the new NDA in line, we have high hopes that the class representatives themselves will feel more empowered to continue pointing out larger topics that you, the community, are passionate about; so we can better adjust ourselves to tackling the issues that are most important.
Honestly, I am upset about this. I am not commenting on the merits of the change. What makes me made is that I have blown probably 300-400 transmute crystals, more gold mats than I can count, and close to half a million gold trying to adapt to this change.
I feel cheated!!!
I am all for quick adjustments, and I applaud you guys for jumping on the DW issue. It was over the top. But the change to allow dots to proc things was fundamental to all aspects of the game. It went live, and many of us spent resources to adapt to that change. For the first time ever, I want compensation for ZOS's incompetency.
And for the record, not trying to shoot the messenger. I like the transparency here.
Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »Greetings! Today the combat team would like to update you on some of our plans in regards to the popular topic and debates; enchantments and poisons! Recently we introduced a new system that allowed enchants and poisons to follow a better line of logic for triggering, which in turn has given us much more direct control on when and where they can fire off. In that process we originally allowed any Weapon Attack (any weapon skill line ability, Light Attack, or Heavy Attack) to trigger an enchant or a poison, and we've been closely monitoring feedback on how it has affected the game in many different avenues. Even after the recent fix to prevent multiple enchants from firing simultaneously, we're still not completely happy with how much damage enchants are granting with low effort input.
In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.
It's worth mentioning that a few of these issues were already highlighted during the PTS, and you may be upset that they went to Live without adjustments. We admit that we could have done a better job at taking in feedback and reacting accordingly to it. Amidst the large number of changes we made, we did not give enough time to this specific issue itself, as our attention was focused on other areas of feedback. Moving forward with our Class Rep Program and the new NDA in line, we have high hopes that the class representatives themselves will feel more empowered to continue pointing out larger topics that you, the community, are passionate about; so we can better adjust ourselves to tackling the issues that are most important.
Honestly, I am upset about this. I am not commenting on the merits of the change. What makes me made is that I have blown probably 300-400 transmute crystals, more gold mats than I can count, and close to half a million gold trying to adapt to this change.
I feel cheated!!!
I am all for quick adjustments, and I applaud you guys for jumping on the DW issue. It was over the top. But the change to allow dots to proc things was fundamental to all aspects of the game. It went live, and many of us spent resources to adapt to that change. For the first time ever, I want compensation for ZOS's incompetency.
And for the record, not trying to shoot the messenger. I like the transparency here.
Tough ***. If you're good, you'll adapt again.
flintstone wrote: »Once again, all about PVP where 20-25% of the game population spends time......oh well.
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »flintstone wrote: »Once again, all about PVP where 20-25% of the game population spends time......oh well.
i would bet that it is is closer to 2-2.5% of the people that play the game.
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »flintstone wrote: »Once again, all about PVP where 20-25% of the game population spends time......oh well.
i would bet that it is is closer to 2-2.5% of the people that play the game.
and I would bet further, that there is a video somewhere showing someone "soloing" the new arena with the OP enchants and that is why these are getting adjusted lol.
Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »Greetings! Today the combat team would like to update you on some of our plans in regards to the popular topic and debates; enchantments and poisons! Recently we introduced a new system that allowed enchants and poisons to follow a better line of logic for triggering, which in turn has given us much more direct control on when and where they can fire off. In that process we originally allowed any Weapon Attack (any weapon skill line ability, Light Attack, or Heavy Attack) to trigger an enchant or a poison, and we've been closely monitoring feedback on how it has affected the game in many different avenues. Even after the recent fix to prevent multiple enchants from firing simultaneously, we're still not completely happy with how much damage enchants are granting with low effort input.
In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.
It's worth mentioning that a few of these issues were already highlighted during the PTS, and you may be upset that they went to Live without adjustments. We admit that we could have done a better job at taking in feedback and reacting accordingly to it. Amidst the large number of changes we made, we did not give enough time to this specific issue itself, as our attention was focused on other areas of feedback. Moving forward with our Class Rep Program and the new NDA in line, we have high hopes that the class representatives themselves will feel more empowered to continue pointing out larger topics that you, the community, are passionate about; so we can better adjust ourselves to tackling the issues that are most important.
Honestly, I am upset about this. I am not commenting on the merits of the change. What makes me made is that I have blown probably 300-400 transmute crystals, more gold mats than I can count, and close to half a million gold trying to adapt to this change.
I feel cheated!!!
I am all for quick adjustments, and I applaud you guys for jumping on the DW issue. It was over the top. But the change to allow dots to proc things was fundamental to all aspects of the game. It went live, and many of us spent resources to adapt to that change. For the first time ever, I want compensation for ZOS's incompetency.
And for the record, not trying to shoot the messenger. I like the transparency here.
Tough ***. If you're good, you'll adapt again.
Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »Greetings! Today the combat team would like to update you on some of our plans in regards to the popular topic and debates; enchantments and poisons! Recently we introduced a new system that allowed enchants and poisons to follow a better line of logic for triggering, which in turn has given us much more direct control on when and where they can fire off. In that process we originally allowed any Weapon Attack (any weapon skill line ability, Light Attack, or Heavy Attack) to trigger an enchant or a poison, and we've been closely monitoring feedback on how it has affected the game in many different avenues. Even after the recent fix to prevent multiple enchants from firing simultaneously, we're still not completely happy with how much damage enchants are granting with low effort input.
In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.
It's worth mentioning that a few of these issues were already highlighted during the PTS, and you may be upset that they went to Live without adjustments. We admit that we could have done a better job at taking in feedback and reacting accordingly to it. Amidst the large number of changes we made, we did not give enough time to this specific issue itself, as our attention was focused on other areas of feedback. Moving forward with our Class Rep Program and the new NDA in line, we have high hopes that the class representatives themselves will feel more empowered to continue pointing out larger topics that you, the community, are passionate about; so we can better adjust ourselves to tackling the issues that are most important.
Honestly, I am upset about this. I am not commenting on the merits of the change. What makes me made is that I have blown probably 300-400 transmute crystals, more gold mats than I can count, and close to half a million gold trying to adapt to this change.
I feel cheated!!!
I am all for quick adjustments, and I applaud you guys for jumping on the DW issue. It was over the top. But the change to allow dots to proc things was fundamental to all aspects of the game. It went live, and many of us spent resources to adapt to that change. For the first time ever, I want compensation for ZOS's incompetency.
And for the record, not trying to shoot the messenger. I like the transparency here.
Tough ***. If you're good, you'll adapt again.
Wow, you are wildly unpleasant. And that's the point, I am in the process of adapting for the third time in a week. That is my complaint. My complaint has nothing to do with where the meta is heading, or whether or not I like it. Its that when they telegraph a meta for over a month on PTS, its inappropriate to shuffle the deck two more times in a week once it goes live.
Adjusting tool tip values is one thing, but doing this with fundamental game mechanics is quite another. This is especially true when the make a LOT of changes all at once, forcing everyone to scramble for a new build.
Although not really sure why I am bothering to respond. Comments like yours are not about discourse, they are so you can feel good while attacking people behind a keyboard. Good day.
Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »Greetings! Today the combat team would like to update you on some of our plans in regards to the popular topic and debates; enchantments and poisons! Recently we introduced a new system that allowed enchants and poisons to follow a better line of logic for triggering, which in turn has given us much more direct control on when and where they can fire off. In that process we originally allowed any Weapon Attack (any weapon skill line ability, Light Attack, or Heavy Attack) to trigger an enchant or a poison, and we've been closely monitoring feedback on how it has affected the game in many different avenues. Even after the recent fix to prevent multiple enchants from firing simultaneously, we're still not completely happy with how much damage enchants are granting with low effort input.
In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.
It's worth mentioning that a few of these issues were already highlighted during the PTS, and you may be upset that they went to Live without adjustments. We admit that we could have done a better job at taking in feedback and reacting accordingly to it. Amidst the large number of changes we made, we did not give enough time to this specific issue itself, as our attention was focused on other areas of feedback. Moving forward with our Class Rep Program and the new NDA in line, we have high hopes that the class representatives themselves will feel more empowered to continue pointing out larger topics that you, the community, are passionate about; so we can better adjust ourselves to tackling the issues that are most important.
Honestly, I am upset about this. I am not commenting on the merits of the change. What makes me made is that I have blown probably 300-400 transmute crystals, more gold mats than I can count, and close to half a million gold trying to adapt to this change.
I feel cheated!!!
I am all for quick adjustments, and I applaud you guys for jumping on the DW issue. It was over the top. But the change to allow dots to proc things was fundamental to all aspects of the game. It went live, and many of us spent resources to adapt to that change. For the first time ever, I want compensation for ZOS's incompetency.
And for the record, not trying to shoot the messenger. I like the transparency here.
Tough ***. If you're good, you'll adapt again.
Wow, you are wildly unpleasant. And that's the point, I am in the process of adapting for the third time in a week. That is my complaint. My complaint has nothing to do with where the meta is heading, or whether or not I like it. Its that when they telegraph a meta for over a month on PTS, its inappropriate to shuffle the deck two more times in a week once it goes live.
Adjusting tool tip values is one thing, but doing this with fundamental game mechanics is quite another. This is especially true when the make a LOT of changes all at once, forcing everyone to scramble for a new build.
Although not really sure why I am bothering to respond. Comments like yours are not about discourse, they are so you can feel good while attacking people behind a keyboard. Good day.
I can't help but agree with you on this. It's true, this build clearly needed an adjustment. Just imagine a stamblade with lethal arrow, PI, cloak, incap, twin slashes and cloak away while his opponent slowly but surely dies, with aboslutely no counterplay, except for templars with purge. Cheap as hell (even for a stamblade )
But after patch 4.2.6, you pc guys could honestly assume it would stay that way until next major patch. I mean, before 4.2.6, it was clearly broken and everybody agreed it SHOULD be fixed. But when was the last time ZOS fixed a balance issue with such a fix patch? I agree, it was a bug fix, not a balance change, but such a quick response is still uncommon from them. So even before 4.2.6, someone could have hoped to get a couple of weeks of free cheese. But AFTER 4.2.6? Everyone could assume that ZOS decided that they fixed the imbalance and that would be the new META. At that point, you either roll with it or get frustrated for 3 months. Then, another week later, they announce they will do another balance change. I'd be mad too.
My question is, is the build really dead? Couldn't you just change the glyph on you backbar for a Weapon or Spell Damage glyph? Torugs + infused should give a pretty great WD/SD increase. You still apply 1 or 2 DoTs (for their own pressure, since they won't proc enchants anymore) and spam shrouded daggers / force pulse on your front bar to apply damage enchant on cooldown. It requires a much more active play, but IMO it could stay pretty strong.
If stam, run deadly cloak too, so damage enchants still proc every 3s when you go defensive mode. If you want, you could put a stam glyph on you offhand for sustain and run WD glyphs on jewelry. That would give a WD tooltip that would make any medium armor user jealous.
I still think you didn't completly waste that 500k. It should remain relatively strong, without being OP. Keep me updated, I mainly PVE and wanted to dig more PVP pretty soon. Complete potato here, so I was hoping on a strong build to soften the learning curve
flintstone wrote: »Once again, all about PVP where 20-25% of the game population spends time......oh well.