Maintenance for the week of February 18:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – February 18
• Xbox One: EU megaserver for maintenance – February 20, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
The Wrathstone DLC Game Pack and Update 21 base game patch are now available to test on the PTS! Read the full patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454456/

Adjustments to How Weapon Enchants and Poisons Trigger

  • Aznox
    Aznox
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Kanar wrote: »
    Aznox wrote: »
    Pre-murkmire, dual wield already had two functional weapon enchants, it was just badly coded so the game was trying to proc one at random without checking if it was currently on cooldown. Result was unreliable and with bad luck the game could sometimes keep trying to proc berserker 5 times in a row while the other enchant was ready to fire.

    Also, people who will now start complaining about dw getting two enchants need to remember balance between weapon skill lines was always asymmetrical. Now that enchant focused build is going to stop being game-wide BiS,, we need to go back to looking at the big picture.

    You're the one who is new to the DW enchant discussion; those of us who have cared about balance between DW, 2h and bow have been discussing this imbalance for a long time. You can go back and look at my discussions in summerset PTS if you want.
    Are we talking about PvE ? BG ? Cyro ? Duel ?

    It's never been hard to proc offhand enchants. Well, maybe if you're bad. Twin slashes proced offhand before, and every other light attack proced offhand.

    I didn't say hard, i said unreliable, enough to drop from 100% theoretical maximum infused berserker uptime to sub-70% in a PvP context. So i yes i agree DW is now stronger.
    The "big picture" is exactly what's being ignored by these recent enchant changes - that DW is leagues ahead of 2h or bow/bow and part of that is caused by two full-strength enchants.

    The change from Dual wield getting nearly 2 enchants (pre-murkmire unreliability) to the current situation of two full enchants is not nearly as big as the two-handed weapons counting as 2 set pieces, yet this specific change never had that much effect on weapon skill lines balance and for a good reason : the true source of power, where metas are made and BiS decided, are the skills.
    Edited by Aznox on October 31, 2018 6:22PM
    Aznox
    PC EU
    Khajiit Stamina Sorcerer and Werewolf
    Currently enjoys a bit of loneliness in Shor
    Battleground regular and Dueling addict
    Theorycrafting enthusiast
  • Swomp23
    Swomp23
    ✭✭✭✭
    Greetings! Today the combat team would like to update you on some of our plans in regards to the popular topic and debates; enchantments and poisons! Recently we introduced a new system that allowed enchants and poisons to follow a better line of logic for triggering, which in turn has given us much more direct control on when and where they can fire off. In that process we originally allowed any Weapon Attack (any weapon skill line ability, Light Attack, or Heavy Attack) to trigger an enchant or a poison, and we've been closely monitoring feedback on how it has affected the game in many different avenues. Even after the recent fix to prevent multiple enchants from firing simultaneously, we're still not completely happy with how much damage enchants are granting with low effort input.

    In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.

    It's worth mentioning that a few of these issues were already highlighted during the PTS, and you may be upset that they went to Live without adjustments. We admit that we could have done a better job at taking in feedback and reacting accordingly to it. Amidst the large number of changes we made, we did not give enough time to this specific issue itself, as our attention was focused on other areas of feedback. Moving forward with our Class Rep Program and the new NDA in line, we have high hopes that the class representatives themselves will feel more empowered to continue pointing out larger topics that you, the community, are passionate about; so we can better adjust ourselves to tackling the issues that are most important.

    I so totally read that ''Greetings!'' with the intonation from your videos. We miss you, man!
    XBox One - NA - 600 CP
  • Darkenarlol
    Darkenarlol
    ✭✭✭✭
    so...pvp crying gonna cost me

    chants proc for my pve master staff from clench...

    not surprised

    hope u r happy now
  • Kanar
    Kanar
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Aznox wrote: »
    Kanar wrote: »
    Aznox wrote: »
    Pre-murkmire, dual wield already had two functional weapon enchants, it was just badly coded so the game was trying to proc one at random without checking if it was currently on cooldown. Result was unreliable and with bad luck the game could sometimes keep trying to proc berserker 5 times in a row while the other enchant was ready to fire.

    Also, people who will now start complaining about dw getting two enchants need to remember balance between weapon skill lines was always asymmetrical. Now that enchant focused build is going to stop being game-wide BiS,, we need to go back to looking at the big picture.

    You're the one who is new to the DW enchant discussion; those of us who have cared about balance between DW, 2h and bow have been discussing this imbalance for a long time. You can go back and look at my discussions in summerset PTS if you want.
    Are we talking about PvE ? BG ? Cyro ? Duel ?

    It's never been hard to proc offhand enchants. Well, maybe if you're bad. Twin slashes proced offhand before, and every other light attack proced offhand.

    I didn't say hard, i said unreliable, enough to drop from 100% theoretical maximum infused berserker uptime to sub-70% in a PvP context. So i yes i agree DW is now stronger.
    The "big picture" is exactly what's being ignored by these recent enchant changes - that DW is leagues ahead of 2h or bow/bow and part of that is caused by two full-strength enchants.

    The change from Dual wield getting nearly 2 enchants (pre-murkmire unreliability) to the current situation of two full enchants is not nearly as big as the two-handed weapons counting as 2 set pieces, yet this specific change never had that much effect on weapon skill lines balance and for a good reason : the true source of power, where metas are made and BiS decided, are the skills.

    That's ***. 2 set pieces was a very small buff for 2h, and in fact that same release 2h got nerfed into ineffectiveness by nerfs to it's light attack damage. The set piece change didn't even really offset the LA nerf.

    The reason 2 set pieces happened was because the crying of magicka staff users, not 2h users who already had a good front bar option in asylum. 2h has been weaker and weaker every patch starting with Summerset; its peak was dragonbones.

    Of course you would know this if you were even aware of this topic 6 months ago.

    Edit: and to add one more thing about your comment on "the true source of power, where metas are made and BiS decided, are the skills", what a load of BS! Did you type it up and think it sounds cool? I'll give you one guess on how many DW skills are on a DPS bar.
    Edited by Kanar on October 31, 2018 8:11PM
  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
    Oreyn_Bearclaw
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    so...pvp crying gonna cost me

    chants proc for my pve master staff from clench...

    not surprised

    hope u r happy now

    My PVP mag sorc was not happy either. They broke Rune cage, and at least this made clench an appealing option. It was nice because it also allowed for some pressure, something sorc is severely lacking. It was certainly not fire and forget while things die. Clench has 3 hard counters: Dodge, Reflect, Purge. It was strong, but in no way OP in my opinion, especially since stamina classes could do the same with PI. If anything PI is stronger because its harder to avoid.

    It also required sacrificing a back bar resto staff, so there were significant tradeoffs between damage and defense. Which is EXACTLY, what they said they wanted. It was strong, but balanced. Of course, now we have forum whiners causing collateral nerfs.

    ZOS got it right the first time. They made quick and specific nerf to DW weapon DOTs double dipping. They were out of line and the change was appropriate. But as usual, they are never satisfied until their nerf hammer hits something else. I really wish they would quit while they are ahead.
    Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on October 31, 2018 8:13PM
    Alliance/Platform: Ebonheart Pact - PC/NA - CP 1,100ish

    My Toons:
    DKs: Oreyn ßearclaw - Dunmer, Bear-m'Athra - Redguard, Bearzilla - Argonian
    Sorcs: Beary Jane - AR37- Altmer, Bearricane - Redguard, Molag Bear - Altmer (AD)
    NBs: Bearclaw Oreyn - Dunmer, Bearblade - Bosmer, ßearblade - Dunmer (DC)
    Temps: Gandalf Likes To Party - Altmer, Bearplar - Redguard, Bearamedic - Argonian
    Wardens: Warden Bearclaw - Altmer, Bear Jordan - Redguard, Bear's Hippie Girlfriend - Bosmer

    vAS+2, vHOFHM, vMOLHM, vSOHM, vHRCHM, vAAHM, vDSA, Flawless Conqueror, Dro-m'Athra Destroyer
  • Aztlan
    Aztlan
    ✭✭✭✭
    Gilliam for the win!
  • Olupajmibanan
    Olupajmibanan
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Feric51 wrote: »
    So, isn't preventing single target dots from firing enchants basically a complete revert to the enchant change?
    The only change is Glyph of Weapon Damage procing form abilities.

    Let's have a look at the changes that were made. Then the changes to the changes. Then the proposed future changes to the changed changes.



    Fixed several issues with Poisons and Weapon Enchantments.
    • All Poisons now correctly proc 20% of the time when any Light Attack, Heavy Attack, or weapon ability deals damage.
    • Food and Drink will now provide the correct stat bonuses if they are consumed while you have a Poison equipped.
    • All Weapon Enchantments now correctly proc 100% of the time when not on cooldown when any Light Attack, Heavy Attack, or weapon ability deals damage.
    • When Dual Wielding, casting a weapon ability can now proc the Weapon Enchantment of either weapon. The system will favor proccing a Weapon Enchantment that is not on cooldown.

    ^^^ Live release Murkmire patch notes



    • Fixed an issue where both of your Dual Wield weapon enchantments were proccing from a single damage from Light Attack, Heavy Attack, or Weapon Ability.
      Developer Comment:
      Abilities that deal damage multiple times with a single cast, such as Flurry which has 5 hits or Twin Slashes which has 2 direct damage hits and several damage over time ticks, can proc both of your weapon enchantments over those hits. But each isolated instance of damage should only be able to proc one weapon enchantment at a time.

    ^^^ Incremental patch notes


    In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.

    ^^^ Gilliam's most recent statement

    @Olupajmibanan Currently, the only "reversion" of the changes have been so that dual-wield enchants don't proc simultaneously upon cooldown. I.E. One light attack proccing both enchants. A skill like rending slashes, with two simultaneous direct damage attacks will still proc both enchants.

    As for the proposed changes. Only single-target, target-based DoTs will be affected. For Destro staff - wall of elements = unchanged, bow - endless hail = unchanged. I can't give examples on S&B or 2H as I don't utilize that playstyle on any of my characters.

    TL;DR - The bottom line is the proposed change is not a "complete revert" of the enchantment changes made for Murkmire.

    LAs, HAs, direct damage weapon abilities and ground-based dots (hail and blockade) were procing enchants normaly before Murkmire.
    They made single target dots on target to also proc enchants with Murkmire.
    And now they changed their mind and take this feature away. So for me, yes it seems an almost complete revert. Only Berserker glyph procing from weapon abilities is a kept change.
  • Aznox
    Aznox
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Kanar wrote: »
    Aznox wrote: »
    Kanar wrote: »
    Aznox wrote: »
    Pre-murkmire, dual wield already had two functional weapon enchants, it was just badly coded so the game was trying to proc one at random without checking if it was currently on cooldown. Result was unreliable and with bad luck the game could sometimes keep trying to proc berserker 5 times in a row while the other enchant was ready to fire.

    Also, people who will now start complaining about dw getting two enchants need to remember balance between weapon skill lines was always asymmetrical. Now that enchant focused build is going to stop being game-wide BiS,, we need to go back to looking at the big picture.

    You're the one who is new to the DW enchant discussion; those of us who have cared about balance between DW, 2h and bow have been discussing this imbalance for a long time. You can go back and look at my discussions in summerset PTS if you want.
    Are we talking about PvE ? BG ? Cyro ? Duel ?

    It's never been hard to proc offhand enchants. Well, maybe if you're bad. Twin slashes proced offhand before, and every other light attack proced offhand.

    I didn't say hard, i said unreliable, enough to drop from 100% theoretical maximum infused berserker uptime to sub-70% in a PvP context. So i yes i agree DW is now stronger.
    The "big picture" is exactly what's being ignored by these recent enchant changes - that DW is leagues ahead of 2h or bow/bow and part of that is caused by two full-strength enchants.

    The change from Dual wield getting nearly 2 enchants (pre-murkmire unreliability) to the current situation of two full enchants is not nearly as big as the two-handed weapons counting as 2 set pieces, yet this specific change never had that much effect on weapon skill lines balance and for a good reason : the true source of power, where metas are made and BiS decided, are the skills.

    That's ***. 2 set pieces was a very small buff for 2h, and in fact that same release 2h got nerfed into ineffectiveness by nerfs to it's light attack damage. The set piece change didn't even really offset the LA nerf.
    By "two-handed weapons" i meant 2H/Bow/Staves. On the detail, yes 2H was heavily impacted by the LA nerf that probably happened because ZoS thought is was dominant enough in PvP at the time.
    The reason 2 set pieces happened was because the crying of magicka staff users, not 2h users who already had a good front bar option in asylum. 2h has been weaker and weaker every patch starting with Summerset; its peak was dragonbones.
    See, we do agree skills and weapon ability sets (Asylum, vMA/vDSA bow, vDSA axes, etc..) are at least as much defining than some other attributes like base wpn dmg, LA scaling, enchants, etc..
    Edit: and to add one more thing about your comment on "the true source of power, where metas are made and BiS decided, are the skills", what a load of BS! Did you type it up and think it sounds cool? I'll give you one guess on how many DW skills are on a DPS bar.

    Ok, maybe mixed serious stuff and jokes a bit too much, but i really don't see a reason for us to disagree here.

    Edit : went to see your post history and you seem to care most about 2H viability vs DW.
    In this context i can understand it is frustrating to see that DW took back "market share" from 2H over the last months in PvP while never giving up PvE "market share" in return. I'm all for giving a small bump to PvE 2H, but if you think removing an enchant from DW is the way to go, i'll let you advocate for it :)

    Edited by Aznox on October 31, 2018 10:08PM
    Aznox
    PC EU
    Khajiit Stamina Sorcerer and Werewolf
    Currently enjoys a bit of loneliness in Shor
    Battleground regular and Dueling addict
    Theorycrafting enthusiast
  • Stikato
    Stikato
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Credit where credit is due; impressed with the response and candor here.
    Mordimus - Stam Sorc
  • idk
    idk
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    It is great that Zos is fixing this, not that I had a direct issue with it.

    However, it is just the latest demonstration that Zos does not think through changes they make. This is beyond not dealing with the feedback Gil acknowledges.

    It is akin to Zos releasing the CP system without any cap and announcing they felt the average player would reach the full 3600 CP in less than 2 years. On the PTS were able to test the full 3600 CP and called it god mode. It took Zos awhile to finally figure out their error.
    Really, idk
  •  Jules
    Jules
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Thanks @ZOS_Gilliam :)


    ^ still crazy cool
    JULES | PC NA | PHALANX

    UserID- Juies || Youtube || Twitch || Twitter
    EP - Jules . Joules . Family Jules . Julary . Juleanos . Juliette
    DC - Juri . Julsie . Jukes. Jules . Jubie .
    AD - Jules XII . Julmanji. Jubaited . Joy


    Rest In Peace G
    Viva La Adamant
    Viva La Aristocracy
  • cpuScientist
    cpuScientist
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I read that Greetings in Giliams voice dang it
  • killahsin
    killahsin
    ✭✭✭
    this was a trash fix. You could have simply scaled the dmg per tick over time to whatever rate you found to be feasible but instead in typical zos fashion you completely obliterated anyone having any ability to run dot builds. Once again proving when it comes to zenimax build diversity is not a priority the tears of the community is the priority. This is absolutely pathetic way to balance your game. Zenimax instead of embracing metas and balancing them doesnt just destroy the meta's they destroy everything related to the meta. There is a reason well maybe 3 that all the top tier pvp guilds quit this game en masse. Every time I think based on the stuff i see this company do that they have finally learned their lesson they go and do things like this. Emergency fix for this yet we have 4 year old bugs that get worse and worse over time. Why dont you just remove all skills from the game and lets all just light attack each other to death @ZOS_Gilliam Aoe online though amirite? Or is it stuck in combat online?
    Edited by killahsin on November 1, 2018 3:19AM
  • Kronuxx
    Kronuxx
    ✭✭✭✭
    Greetings! Today the combat team would like to update you on some of our plans in regards to the popular topic and debates; enchantments and poisons! Recently we introduced a new system that allowed enchants and poisons to follow a better line of logic for triggering, which in turn has given us much more direct control on when and where they can fire off. In that process we originally allowed any Weapon Attack (any weapon skill line ability, Light Attack, or Heavy Attack) to trigger an enchant or a poison, and we've been closely monitoring feedback on how it has affected the game in many different avenues. Even after the recent fix to prevent multiple enchants from firing simultaneously, we're still not completely happy with how much damage enchants are granting with low effort input.

    In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.

    It's worth mentioning that a few of these issues were already highlighted during the PTS, and you may be upset that they went to Live without adjustments. We admit that we could have done a better job at taking in feedback and reacting accordingly to it. Amidst the large number of changes we made, we did not give enough time to this specific issue itself, as our attention was focused on other areas of feedback. Moving forward with our Class Rep Program and the new NDA in line, we have high hopes that the class representatives themselves will feel more empowered to continue pointing out larger topics that you, the community, are passionate about; so we can better adjust ourselves to tackling the issues that are most important.


    Honestly, I am upset about this. I am not commenting on the merits of the change. What makes me made is that I have blown probably 300-400 transmute crystals, more gold mats than I can count, and close to half a million gold trying to adapt to this change.

    I feel cheated!!!

    I am all for quick adjustments, and I applaud you guys for jumping on the DW issue. It was over the top. But the change to allow dots to proc things was fundamental to all aspects of the game. It went live, and many of us spent resources to adapt to that change. For the first time ever, I want compensation for ZOS's incompetency.

    And for the record, not trying to shoot the messenger. I like the transparency here.

    Tough ***. If you're good, you'll adapt again.
  • killahsin
    killahsin
    ✭✭✭
    Kronuxx wrote: »
    Greetings! Today the combat team would like to update you on some of our plans in regards to the popular topic and debates; enchantments and poisons! Recently we introduced a new system that allowed enchants and poisons to follow a better line of logic for triggering, which in turn has given us much more direct control on when and where they can fire off. In that process we originally allowed any Weapon Attack (any weapon skill line ability, Light Attack, or Heavy Attack) to trigger an enchant or a poison, and we've been closely monitoring feedback on how it has affected the game in many different avenues. Even after the recent fix to prevent multiple enchants from firing simultaneously, we're still not completely happy with how much damage enchants are granting with low effort input.

    In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.

    It's worth mentioning that a few of these issues were already highlighted during the PTS, and you may be upset that they went to Live without adjustments. We admit that we could have done a better job at taking in feedback and reacting accordingly to it. Amidst the large number of changes we made, we did not give enough time to this specific issue itself, as our attention was focused on other areas of feedback. Moving forward with our Class Rep Program and the new NDA in line, we have high hopes that the class representatives themselves will feel more empowered to continue pointing out larger topics that you, the community, are passionate about; so we can better adjust ourselves to tackling the issues that are most important.


    Honestly, I am upset about this. I am not commenting on the merits of the change. What makes me made is that I have blown probably 300-400 transmute crystals, more gold mats than I can count, and close to half a million gold trying to adapt to this change.

    I feel cheated!!!

    I am all for quick adjustments, and I applaud you guys for jumping on the DW issue. It was over the top. But the change to allow dots to proc things was fundamental to all aspects of the game. It went live, and many of us spent resources to adapt to that change. For the first time ever, I want compensation for ZOS's incompetency.

    And for the record, not trying to shoot the messenger. I like the transparency here.

    Tough ***. If you're good, you'll adapt again.

    All the good players already quit.
  • Nser
    Nser
    ✭✭✭
    what about bleeding and item sets that ignore res ?????
  • flintstone
    flintstone
    ✭✭✭
    Once again, all about PVP where 20-25% of the game population spends time......oh well.
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    flintstone wrote: »
    Once again, all about PVP where 20-25% of the game population spends time......oh well.

    i would bet that it is is closer to 2-2.5% of the people that play the game.
    Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on November 1, 2018 8:54AM
  • Mr_Wolfe
    Mr_Wolfe
    ✭✭✭
    Y'know, I was looking forward to trying out the new enchantment changes. Sounds like they're going to get nerfed before I even get a chance, since Murkmire doesn't release on consoles for another month. Why does every update from ZOS leave me feeling like Tinny Tim?

    8439740957_93c6c646d8_z.jpg
  • Minno
    Minno
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    flintstone wrote: »
    Once again, all about PVP where 20-25% of the game population spends time......oh well.

    i would bet that it is is closer to 2-2.5% of the people that play the game.

    and I would bet further, that there is a video somewhere showing someone "soloing" the new arena with the OP enchants and that is why these are getting adjusted lol.
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • HappyElephant
    HappyElephant
    ✭✭✭
    I feel they create more problems from trying to fix problems.

    Fingers-in-a-***.jpg

    Edited by HappyElephant on November 1, 2018 3:12PM
  • killahsin
    killahsin
    ✭✭✭
    Minno wrote: »
    flintstone wrote: »
    Once again, all about PVP where 20-25% of the game population spends time......oh well.

    i would bet that it is is closer to 2-2.5% of the people that play the game.

    and I would bet further, that there is a video somewhere showing someone "soloing" the new arena with the OP enchants and that is why these are getting adjusted lol.

    quoted for high probability
  • HappyElephant
    HappyElephant
    ✭✭✭
    like this
    Edited by HappyElephant on November 1, 2018 3:15PM
  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
    Oreyn_Bearclaw
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Kronuxx wrote: »
    Greetings! Today the combat team would like to update you on some of our plans in regards to the popular topic and debates; enchantments and poisons! Recently we introduced a new system that allowed enchants and poisons to follow a better line of logic for triggering, which in turn has given us much more direct control on when and where they can fire off. In that process we originally allowed any Weapon Attack (any weapon skill line ability, Light Attack, or Heavy Attack) to trigger an enchant or a poison, and we've been closely monitoring feedback on how it has affected the game in many different avenues. Even after the recent fix to prevent multiple enchants from firing simultaneously, we're still not completely happy with how much damage enchants are granting with low effort input.

    In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.

    It's worth mentioning that a few of these issues were already highlighted during the PTS, and you may be upset that they went to Live without adjustments. We admit that we could have done a better job at taking in feedback and reacting accordingly to it. Amidst the large number of changes we made, we did not give enough time to this specific issue itself, as our attention was focused on other areas of feedback. Moving forward with our Class Rep Program and the new NDA in line, we have high hopes that the class representatives themselves will feel more empowered to continue pointing out larger topics that you, the community, are passionate about; so we can better adjust ourselves to tackling the issues that are most important.


    Honestly, I am upset about this. I am not commenting on the merits of the change. What makes me made is that I have blown probably 300-400 transmute crystals, more gold mats than I can count, and close to half a million gold trying to adapt to this change.

    I feel cheated!!!

    I am all for quick adjustments, and I applaud you guys for jumping on the DW issue. It was over the top. But the change to allow dots to proc things was fundamental to all aspects of the game. It went live, and many of us spent resources to adapt to that change. For the first time ever, I want compensation for ZOS's incompetency.

    And for the record, not trying to shoot the messenger. I like the transparency here.

    Tough ***. If you're good, you'll adapt again.

    Wow, you are wildly unpleasant. And that's the point, I am in the process of adapting for the third time in a week. That is my complaint. My complaint has nothing to do with where the meta is heading, or whether or not I like it. Its that when they telegraph a meta for over a month on PTS, its inappropriate to shuffle the deck two more times in a week once it goes live.
    Adjusting tool tip values is one thing, but doing this with fundamental game mechanics is quite another. This is especially true when they make a LOT of changes all at once, forcing everyone to scramble for a new build.

    Although not really sure why I am bothering to respond. Comments like yours are not about discourse, they are so you can feel good while attacking people behind a keyboard. Good day.
    Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on November 1, 2018 4:48PM
    Alliance/Platform: Ebonheart Pact - PC/NA - CP 1,100ish

    My Toons:
    DKs: Oreyn ßearclaw - Dunmer, Bear-m'Athra - Redguard, Bearzilla - Argonian
    Sorcs: Beary Jane - AR37- Altmer, Bearricane - Redguard, Molag Bear - Altmer (AD)
    NBs: Bearclaw Oreyn - Dunmer, Bearblade - Bosmer, ßearblade - Dunmer (DC)
    Temps: Gandalf Likes To Party - Altmer, Bearplar - Redguard, Bearamedic - Argonian
    Wardens: Warden Bearclaw - Altmer, Bear Jordan - Redguard, Bear's Hippie Girlfriend - Bosmer

    vAS+2, vHOFHM, vMOLHM, vSOHM, vHRCHM, vAAHM, vDSA, Flawless Conqueror, Dro-m'Athra Destroyer
  • Swomp23
    Swomp23
    ✭✭✭✭
    Kronuxx wrote: »
    Greetings! Today the combat team would like to update you on some of our plans in regards to the popular topic and debates; enchantments and poisons! Recently we introduced a new system that allowed enchants and poisons to follow a better line of logic for triggering, which in turn has given us much more direct control on when and where they can fire off. In that process we originally allowed any Weapon Attack (any weapon skill line ability, Light Attack, or Heavy Attack) to trigger an enchant or a poison, and we've been closely monitoring feedback on how it has affected the game in many different avenues. Even after the recent fix to prevent multiple enchants from firing simultaneously, we're still not completely happy with how much damage enchants are granting with low effort input.

    In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.

    It's worth mentioning that a few of these issues were already highlighted during the PTS, and you may be upset that they went to Live without adjustments. We admit that we could have done a better job at taking in feedback and reacting accordingly to it. Amidst the large number of changes we made, we did not give enough time to this specific issue itself, as our attention was focused on other areas of feedback. Moving forward with our Class Rep Program and the new NDA in line, we have high hopes that the class representatives themselves will feel more empowered to continue pointing out larger topics that you, the community, are passionate about; so we can better adjust ourselves to tackling the issues that are most important.


    Honestly, I am upset about this. I am not commenting on the merits of the change. What makes me made is that I have blown probably 300-400 transmute crystals, more gold mats than I can count, and close to half a million gold trying to adapt to this change.

    I feel cheated!!!

    I am all for quick adjustments, and I applaud you guys for jumping on the DW issue. It was over the top. But the change to allow dots to proc things was fundamental to all aspects of the game. It went live, and many of us spent resources to adapt to that change. For the first time ever, I want compensation for ZOS's incompetency.

    And for the record, not trying to shoot the messenger. I like the transparency here.

    Tough ***. If you're good, you'll adapt again.

    Wow, you are wildly unpleasant. And that's the point, I am in the process of adapting for the third time in a week. That is my complaint. My complaint has nothing to do with where the meta is heading, or whether or not I like it. Its that when they telegraph a meta for over a month on PTS, its inappropriate to shuffle the deck two more times in a week once it goes live.
    Adjusting tool tip values is one thing, but doing this with fundamental game mechanics is quite another. This is especially true when the make a LOT of changes all at once, forcing everyone to scramble for a new build.

    Although not really sure why I am bothering to respond. Comments like yours are not about discourse, they are so you can feel good while attacking people behind a keyboard. Good day.

    I can't help but agree with you on this. It's true, this build clearly needed an adjustment. Just imagine a stamblade with lethal arrow, PI, cloak, incap, twin slashes and cloak away while his opponent slowly but surely dies, with aboslutely no counterplay, except for templars with purge. Cheap as hell (even for a stamblade :p )

    But after patch 4.2.6, you pc guys could honestly assume it would stay that way until next major patch. I mean, before 4.2.6, it was clearly broken and everybody agreed it SHOULD be fixed. But when was the last time ZOS fixed a balance issue with such a fix patch? I agree, it was a bug fix, not a balance change, but such a quick response is still uncommon from them. So even before 4.2.6, someone could have hoped to get a couple of weeks of free cheese. But AFTER 4.2.6? Everyone could assume that ZOS decided that they fixed the imbalance and that would be the new META. At that point, you either roll with it or get frustrated for 3 months. Then, another week later, they announce they will do another balance change. I'd be mad too.


    My question is, is the build really dead? Couldn't you just change the glyph on you backbar for a Weapon or Spell Damage glyph? Torugs + infused should give a pretty great WD/SD increase. You still apply 1 or 2 DoTs (for their own pressure, since they won't proc enchants anymore) and spam shrouded daggers / force pulse on your front bar to apply damage enchant on cooldown. It requires a much more active play, but IMO it could stay pretty strong.
    If stam, run deadly cloak too, so damage enchants still proc every 3s when you go defensive mode. If you want, you could put a stam glyph on you offhand for sustain and run WD glyphs on jewelry. That would give a WD tooltip that would make any medium armor user jealous.

    I still think you didn't completly waste that 500k. It should remain relatively strong, without being OP. Keep me updated, I mainly PVE and wanted to dig more PVP pretty soon. Complete potato here, so I was hoping on a strong build to soften the learning curve :p
    Edited by Swomp23 on November 1, 2018 4:51PM
    XBox One - NA - 600 CP
  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
    Oreyn_Bearclaw
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Swomp23 wrote: »
    Kronuxx wrote: »
    Greetings! Today the combat team would like to update you on some of our plans in regards to the popular topic and debates; enchantments and poisons! Recently we introduced a new system that allowed enchants and poisons to follow a better line of logic for triggering, which in turn has given us much more direct control on when and where they can fire off. In that process we originally allowed any Weapon Attack (any weapon skill line ability, Light Attack, or Heavy Attack) to trigger an enchant or a poison, and we've been closely monitoring feedback on how it has affected the game in many different avenues. Even after the recent fix to prevent multiple enchants from firing simultaneously, we're still not completely happy with how much damage enchants are granting with low effort input.

    In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.

    It's worth mentioning that a few of these issues were already highlighted during the PTS, and you may be upset that they went to Live without adjustments. We admit that we could have done a better job at taking in feedback and reacting accordingly to it. Amidst the large number of changes we made, we did not give enough time to this specific issue itself, as our attention was focused on other areas of feedback. Moving forward with our Class Rep Program and the new NDA in line, we have high hopes that the class representatives themselves will feel more empowered to continue pointing out larger topics that you, the community, are passionate about; so we can better adjust ourselves to tackling the issues that are most important.


    Honestly, I am upset about this. I am not commenting on the merits of the change. What makes me made is that I have blown probably 300-400 transmute crystals, more gold mats than I can count, and close to half a million gold trying to adapt to this change.

    I feel cheated!!!

    I am all for quick adjustments, and I applaud you guys for jumping on the DW issue. It was over the top. But the change to allow dots to proc things was fundamental to all aspects of the game. It went live, and many of us spent resources to adapt to that change. For the first time ever, I want compensation for ZOS's incompetency.

    And for the record, not trying to shoot the messenger. I like the transparency here.

    Tough ***. If you're good, you'll adapt again.

    Wow, you are wildly unpleasant. And that's the point, I am in the process of adapting for the third time in a week. That is my complaint. My complaint has nothing to do with where the meta is heading, or whether or not I like it. Its that when they telegraph a meta for over a month on PTS, its inappropriate to shuffle the deck two more times in a week once it goes live.
    Adjusting tool tip values is one thing, but doing this with fundamental game mechanics is quite another. This is especially true when the make a LOT of changes all at once, forcing everyone to scramble for a new build.

    Although not really sure why I am bothering to respond. Comments like yours are not about discourse, they are so you can feel good while attacking people behind a keyboard. Good day.

    I can't help but agree with you on this. It's true, this build clearly needed an adjustment. Just imagine a stamblade with lethal arrow, PI, cloak, incap, twin slashes and cloak away while his opponent slowly but surely dies, with aboslutely no counterplay, except for templars with purge. Cheap as hell (even for a stamblade :p )

    But after patch 4.2.6, you pc guys could honestly assume it would stay that way until next major patch. I mean, before 4.2.6, it was clearly broken and everybody agreed it SHOULD be fixed. But when was the last time ZOS fixed a balance issue with such a fix patch? I agree, it was a bug fix, not a balance change, but such a quick response is still uncommon from them. So even before 4.2.6, someone could have hoped to get a couple of weeks of free cheese. But AFTER 4.2.6? Everyone could assume that ZOS decided that they fixed the imbalance and that would be the new META. At that point, you either roll with it or get frustrated for 3 months. Then, another week later, they announce they will do another balance change. I'd be mad too.


    My question is, is the build really dead? Couldn't you just change the glyph on you backbar for a Weapon or Spell Damage glyph? Torugs + infused should give a pretty great WD/SD increase. You still apply 1 or 2 DoTs (for their own pressure, since they won't proc enchants anymore) and spam shrouded daggers / force pulse on your front bar to apply damage enchant on cooldown. It requires a much more active play, but IMO it could stay pretty strong.
    If stam, run deadly cloak too, so damage enchants still proc every 3s when you go defensive mode. If you want, you could put a stam glyph on you offhand for sustain and run WD glyphs on jewelry. That would give a WD tooltip that would make any medium armor user jealous.

    I still think you didn't completly waste that 500k. It should remain relatively strong, without being OP. Keep me updated, I mainly PVE and wanted to dig more PVP pretty soon. Complete potato here, so I was hoping on a strong build to soften the learning curve :p

    Well like I said, I ran the cheese for a day on my stam sorc just to see what all the fuss was about. The build I actually devoted resources to after 4.2.6 was for my mag sorc. Traditionally on my mag sorc, I do run an infused back bar resto with a Weapon/Spell damage enchant, and I do a reasonable good job weaving to keep it up most of the time.

    The change I made did not involve Torugs at all. It involved back barring a fire staff (a fundamental build change for me) to take advantage of Destructive reach procing Enchants (which i Assumed post 4.2.6 was here to stay). Using a Spell damage enchant (or any an enchant with a duration on it) doesnt have any real benefit with this type of build because you can keep those up 100% of the time anyway just by weaving every 5-6 seconds. The only way this build makes sense is if you use a damage enchant that procs with every other tick.

    Again, not saying whether or not is should be this way, but it was reasonable to expect it to continue post 4.2.6 until the next patch, and god knows, all the stamina players were already doing it.

    Dropping a resto meant gear shifts to compensate for the lack of defense/healing that I was losing, which means Mats, Transmute, and gold. I created a completely new gear setup from the ground up. The only piece of gear that I already had was my master inferno, but even that I had to trait change (pretty sure its back to useless). I think a lot of the gear will still be useful, but certainly not all of it. Most likely, I will be back to a back bar resto, runnig a spell damage enchant. Let's also not forget, that doing this as a magic toon (going double destro) is a significant tradeoff between magic and defense. These are the tradeoffs they claim to want.
    Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on November 1, 2018 5:12PM
    Alliance/Platform: Ebonheart Pact - PC/NA - CP 1,100ish

    My Toons:
    DKs: Oreyn ßearclaw - Dunmer, Bear-m'Athra - Redguard, Bearzilla - Argonian
    Sorcs: Beary Jane - AR37- Altmer, Bearricane - Redguard, Molag Bear - Altmer (AD)
    NBs: Bearclaw Oreyn - Dunmer, Bearblade - Bosmer, ßearblade - Dunmer (DC)
    Temps: Gandalf Likes To Party - Altmer, Bearplar - Redguard, Bearamedic - Argonian
    Wardens: Warden Bearclaw - Altmer, Bear Jordan - Redguard, Bear's Hippie Girlfriend - Bosmer

    vAS+2, vHOFHM, vMOLHM, vSOHM, vHRCHM, vAAHM, vDSA, Flawless Conqueror, Dro-m'Athra Destroyer
  • Moonsorrow
    Moonsorrow
    ✭✭✭✭
    @ZOS_Gilliam

    Big thanks for your message and communication on this issue. :)

    I agree fully on your method on the planned changes to the enchant proccing mechanics, cannot be more happy right now that its the way you and the combat team are looking at it too instead of huge nerfs to enchants or gear that is not the problem. Good job, keep it up!

    And please do make messages like this explaining stuff on future big changes, the small developer comments on skill adjustments not always explain the vision you guys are having for the big picture so uproars happen. Sometimes uproars are good thing though, it means we love the game so we get emotional about big changes when/if they feel wrong. Now it feels you are listening to our concerns, and acting on them too.

    Have a good week, and please do soon more developer stream playing some dungeons or even better some pvp? :)
    PC/EU - Sotha Sil - DC
    solo & small scale
    1000+ CP
    Playing all classes
  • Finedaible
    Finedaible
    ✭✭✭
    Glad this is being looked at, but it is pretty annoying that we essentially wasted materials and transmute crystals on this change already. It would be nice if we could have an estimate of when these future revised changes will be implemented. I'm tired of wasting time on a build that just gets gutted with every update by the time i'm finishing it. I hope this "future incremental" update will be before this year ends, otherwise we'll have to spend months making builds we know is gonna be gutted again later.
    Edited by Finedaible on November 1, 2018 6:21PM
  • Solariken
    Solariken
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    I'm late to the party here but @ZOS_Gilliam I feel like this is the wrong change. Enchant abuse is only a problem with dual wield, it seems balanced for things like Poison Injection and Carve.

    Why don't you just cut the value of enchants in half for 1h weapons? I realize 1h/Shield would receive a collateral nerf, but you can easily add a 100% bonus modifer back into 1h/S passives.

    It makes zero sense that you are allowing ground-based abilities to proc enchants but not single target DOTs.
  • Elong
    Elong
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    flintstone wrote: »
    Once again, all about PVP where 20-25% of the game population spends time......oh well.

    Not at all, they're clearly over performing in PVE too, hence the change.
Sign In or Register to comment.