Adjustments to How Weapon Enchants and Poisons Trigger

Emma_Overload

Solariken wrote: »

I'm late to the party here but @ZOS_Gilliam I feel like this is the wrong change. Enchant abuse is only a problem with dual wield, it seems balanced for things like Poison Injection and Carve.

Why don't you just cut the value of enchants in half for 1h weapons? I realize 1h/Shield would receive a collateral nerf, but you can easily add a 100% bonus modifer back into 1h/S passives.

It makes zero sense that you are allowing ground-based abilities to proc enchants but not single target DOTs.

That good idea any many others have been discussed over and over. The fact is that many Dual Wield advocates always have some (dubious) reason they don't want the adjustment. I've given up, LOL.

flintstone

Elong wrote: »

flintstone wrote: »

Once again, all about PVP where 20-25% of the game population spends time......oh well.

Not at all, they're clearly over performing in PVE too, hence the change.

Mine are not clearly over performing in PVE.....in the bigger picture of my fight stats, around 1000 dps......WOW! Must just be yours?

Elong

flintstone wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

flintstone wrote: »

Once again, all about PVP where 20-25% of the game population spends time......oh well.

Not at all, they're clearly over performing in PVE too, hence the change.

Mine are not clearly over performing in PVE.....in the bigger picture of my fight stats, around 1000 dps......WOW! Must just be yours?

PVE is far too easy as it is.

FrancisCrawford

Unless I'm terribly mistaken, every single-target weapon skill DoT has a direct damage component that will proc enchants not on cooldown, even if no LA is weaved in. So all that's being taken away is using a single-target DoT skill to get multiple procs of the same enchant.

That sounds like a pretty small nerf in PvE, and a much-needed bigger one in PvP. Well-played!

glavius

Solariken wrote: »

I'm late to the party here but @ZOS_Gilliam I feel like this is the wrong change. Enchant abuse is only a problem with dual wield, it seems balanced for things like Poison Injection and Carve.

Why don't you just cut the value of enchants in half for 1h weapons? I realize 1h/Shield would receive a collateral nerf, but you can easily add a 100% bonus modifer back into 1h/S passives.

It makes zero sense that you are allowing ground-based abilities to proc enchants but not single target DOTs.

I wouldn't call it balanced.
Dual wield and bow are the only lines that have good backbar dots. Carve is a terrible backbar dot/waste of space if you use it for the dot mainly. Resto has no backbar dot. Neither does sword/shield. And generally destro users are at a disadvantage if they run destructive reach on backbar, atleast for most pvp setups.

So while it's more unbalanced for dual wield. it's not really balanced for bow either.

Swomp23

@ZOS_Gilliam Any ETA on this future incremental patch?

Feric51

Swomp23 wrote: »

@ZOS_Gilliam Any ETA on this future incremental patch?

burglar

Despite ZOS virtually removing melee magblades from the game over the past few years, this post serves as a glimmer of hope for the future. Not to mention, I really enjoy the snare changes to light armor.

JumpmanLane

Oh geeze Gilliam I was hoping you’d update a couple of your builds lol. Now I know why you haven’t. All the best to you.

joaaocaampos

hm

callen4492

LonePirate wrote: »

Bless you, Gilliam, for trying to save this game despite all of the indifference you confront. However, I did roll my eyes at your last sentence as I suspect reticence by the Class Reps is not and has never been the major problem with that program.

In response to your comment about Gilliams last sentence, just wanted to point out that Gilliam said he hoped “class reps would feel more empowered to CONTINUE pointing out larger topics...” I took that to mean that he/ZoS knows class reps have been pointing out issues but have maybe felt ignored. And now that ZoS is actually responding to an issue that class reps and the community pointed out, hopefully class reps feel “more empowered” to point out issues and like they’re not wasting their time. It seems that you took that sentence to mean that somehow Gilliam/ZoS thinks class reps haven’t been pointing out issues. I don’t think that’s the case.

Feric51

joaaocaampos wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons.

@ZOS_Gilliam

• Heavy Attacks.
• Two-Handed: Cleave (and morphs).
• Dual Wield: Lascerate (and morphs); Flurry (and morphs); Twin Slashes (and morphs).
• Bow: Rapid Fire (and morphs); Poison Arrow (and morphs).
• Destruction Staff: Force Shock (and morphs); Destructive Touch (and morphs).

Don't be afraid to implement the changes in these abilities above. Believe me, it will help balance the Weapon Skill Lines, even though only one Two-Handed ability and three Dual Wield abilities are affected!

So basically what you're saying is only light attacks and AoE's should proc enchants on destro staves? I don't PvP and even I can see this sounds a bit extreme. You basically leave destro staff users the destro ulti (expensive), wall of elements (static, ground-based, and easily avoidable), and impulse (nobody uses - even if the new BRP weapons create a slight uptick). Destructive touch is already losing the ability to proc from the DoT ticks, and the other weapon skill line (Weakness to Elements) isn't an offensive skill.

Compared to dual-wield, which you imply is getting hit harder than the rest, it will still proc off blade cloak (yes it is an AoE, but a dynamic one that moves with the attacker who, as dual-wield, will most likely be within melee range), shrouded daggers which is the preferred ranged spammable, and let's not forget "spin-to-win" steel tornado. Don't forget dual-wield also has twice the enchants equating to half the cool-down time as all the 2-handed weapon abilities.

And not proccing off heavy attacks? I'll assume that was a typo.

Sygil05

Crazy that this issue warrants a post from the Devs, but the multiple pages of questions from Magicka players is conveniently ignored.

Minno

Feric51 wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons.

@ZOS_Gilliam

• Heavy Attacks.
• Two-Handed: Cleave (and morphs).
• Dual Wield: Lascerate (and morphs); Flurry (and morphs); Twin Slashes (and morphs).
• Bow: Rapid Fire (and morphs); Poison Arrow (and morphs).
• Destruction Staff: Force Shock (and morphs); Destructive Touch (and morphs).

Don't be afraid to implement the changes in these abilities above. Believe me, it will help balance the Weapon Skill Lines, even though only one Two-Handed ability and three Dual Wield abilities are affected!

So basically what you're saying is only light attacks and AoE's should proc enchants on destro staves? I don't PvP and even I can see this sounds a bit extreme. You basically leave destro staff users the destro ulti (expensive), wall of elements (static, ground-based, and easily avoidable), and impulse (nobody uses - even if the new BRP weapons create a slight uptick). Destructive touch is already losing the ability to proc from the DoT ticks, and the other weapon skill line (Weakness to Elements) isn't an offensive skill.

Compared to dual-wield, which you imply is getting hit harder than the rest, it will still proc off blade cloak (yes it is an AoE, but a dynamic one that moves with the attacker who, as dual-wield, will most likely be within melee range), shrouded daggers which is the preferred ranged spammable, and let's not forget "spin-to-win" steel tornado. Don't forget dual-wield also has twice the enchants equating to half the cool-down time as all the 2-handed weapon abilities.

And not proccing off heavy attacks? I'll assume that was a typo.

Wall of elements is a really nice ability. All you need to do is tag the target once to hit them with an otherwise unavoidable enchant proc. And with poisons, 20% chance to tag them with an otherwise unavoidable poison proc as well (double dot poisons proc skoria).

I have come to love that ability.

joaaocaampos

@ZOS_Gilliam

What is the difference between Lacerate and Rapid Fire? Why not "All damage from Rapid Fire and its morphs"? Why only "the residual Damage over Time from Toxic Barrage"?

Do you see Lacerate as a DoT and Rapid Fire as a channeling? Is that the answer?

Swomp23

@ZOS_Gilliam So, I already made a thread in General Discussion, but I'll ask this here too. Do you have any plan to fix this on console throuh an incremental patch too?

Because today's natch potes are the same than pc's 4.2.5...

visionality

I may be simple minded, but my idea about a more logical and more foreseeable way to proc weapon enchants would be the actual use of the weapon. I.e. a light or a heavy attack.

Weps

Thanks @ZOS_Gilliam for the clarification.
It's so pleasing to the eye when someone answers with such clarity and professionalism while being extremely technical.

Hats off.

Anyway, I know this is an extreme early stage, but how will the change of the upcoming incremental patch affect magicka PvE Dps? Solely based on what I'm reading, you want to make enchants proc only off single target DoTs ( and light and heavy attacks I suppose but I'm not entirely sure about this ).
Currently there is not a single magicka class that is using single target based DoTs in their rotation, are you planning to move forward understanding how this is going to impact DPS?

Checkmath

Weps wrote: »

Thanks @ZOS_Gilliam for the clarification.
It's so pleasing to the eye when someone answers with such clarity and professionalism while being extremely technical.

Hats off.

Anyway, I know this is an extreme early stage, but how will the change of the upcoming incremental patch affect magicka PvE Dps? Solely based on what I'm reading, you want to make enchants proc only off single target DoTs ( and light and heavy attacks I suppose but I'm not entirely sure about this ).
Currently there is not a single magicka class that is using single target based DoTs in their rotation, are you planning to move forward understanding how this is going to impact DPS?

Magicka dds still have the possibility to proc their backbar enchant via wall of elements. Meanwhile their frontbar enchantement actually will only proc from weaving. Actually is is pretty much the same like pre murkmire.

Pretty much the same goes for stamina dds, which proc the backbar glyph via volley. They had for the last weeks also the chance to proc it via poison injection. This will not work anymore now. Frontbar is also about weaving, but additionally rending slashes can proc the glyphs with their direct damage component.

Dolphinsgal

I usually don't respond to things here about changes but this change ticks me off. Basically once again because of pvp things for pve get nerfed. I understand trying to keep everyone happy but it seems zos has forgotten that changes affect pve as well. Stam dps has now been nerfed in pve thanks al whole bloody dang lot.

Lab3360

usmcjdking wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Greetings! Today the combat team would like to update you on some of our plans in regards to the popular topic and debates; enchantments and poisons! Recently we introduced a new system that allowed enchants and poisons to follow a better line of logic for triggering, which in turn has given us much more direct control on when and where they can fire off. In that process we originally allowed any Weapon Attack (any weapon skill line ability, Light Attack, or Heavy Attack) to trigger an enchant or a poison, and we've been closely monitoring feedback on how it has affected the game in many different avenues. Even after the recent fix to prevent multiple enchants from firing simultaneously, we're still not completely happy with how much damage enchants are granting with low effort input.

In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.

It's worth mentioning that a few of these issues were already highlighted during the PTS, and you may be upset that they went to Live without adjustments. We admit that we could have done a better job at taking in feedback and reacting accordingly to it. Amidst the large number of changes we made, we did not give enough time to this specific issue itself, as our attention was focused on other areas of feedback. Moving forward with our Class Rep Program and the new NDA in line, we have high hopes that the class representatives themselves will feel more empowered to continue pointing out larger topics that you, the community, are passionate about; so we can better adjust ourselves to tackling the issues that are most important.

Honestly, I am upset about this. I am not commenting on the merits of the change. What makes me made is that I have blown probably 300-400 transmute crystals, more gold mats than I can count, and close to half a million gold trying to adapt to this change.

I feel cheated!!!

I am all for quick adjustments, and I applaud you guys for jumping on the DW issue. It was over the top. But the change to allow dots to proc things was fundamental to all aspects of the game. It went live, and many of us spent resources to adapt to that change. For the first time ever, I want compensation for ZOS's incompetency.

And for the record, not trying to shoot the messenger. I like the transparency here.

I mean if you vest resources into something that is so blatantly outperforming everything else, you should not be surprised when it gets gutted.

I mean I get you enjoy using it, but do you think it's fair to hit a single button and put an uncounterable 3-4k DPS on a target such as myself? Or anyone else?

Other people play this game, a lot of them will not or refuse to adopt a change so obviously broken out of nothing other than a sense of responsibility to all the other people I PVP with and against. We are not in a position where we can afford to lose many more PVPers for the sake of "lolcheese good fun". The incoming PVP population is not replenishing the lost PVPers due to imbalance, boredom, poor performance and broken gameplay.

"Overperforming" lol

What is the definition of Overperforming? I would be willing to bet you cant find an official definition in the context you are using it.
"Balance" is another Buzzword floating around out here in cyberspace.

Enchants were working as intended. It was announced in the patch notes and implemented. The only reason it was changed was due to crybabies in pvp.
Most combat changes come only because of crybaby pvpers. Pve always suffer because pvper always call devs to assist with combat changed because pvpers lack the ability to innovate counter measures to certain strategies and combat. This is yet another example.

As far as you berrating the guy who invested in a build based upon the patch notes, you act as though you have never done the same in the past. Try being constructive rather than criticizing for practices you and everyone else including myself have employed in the life of this game.
There is no reason he should not have found the patch credible.

Get off Soap Box

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Since dual wield enchantments are nerfed, can we reverse this? Make it so any weapon dot can proc an enchantment?

Aznox

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Since dual wield enchantments are nerfed, can we reverse this? Make it so any weapon dot can proc an enchantment?

This would push Torug builds over the top again, trust me.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Aznox wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Since dual wield enchantments are nerfed, can we reverse this? Make it so any weapon dot can proc an enchantment?

This would push Torug builds over the top again, trust me.

Could you explain how? Destro touch and cleave tick every 2 seconds. Sure you get the extra damage from infused and TP but it ought to be manageable in PvP.

Aznox

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Since dual wield enchantments are nerfed, can we reverse this? Make it so any weapon dot can proc an enchantment?

This would push Torug builds over the top again, trust me.

Could you explain how? Destro touch and cleave tick every 2 seconds. Sure you get the extra damage from infused and TP but it ought to be manageable in PvP.

The following weapons are all able to proc more often than that from back-bar :

Bow (poison injection, acid spray, ballista, virulent shot)
DW (rending, blade cloack, lacerate)
Destro (touch, wild impulse, storm)

And even on front bar, even on a 2sec tick ... look at the current werewolf situation, because this is exactly that :
- Werewolf bleed procs one enchant per tick
- One tick on LA and one tick every two sec
-> Comparable to a LA/Destructive weave just with two enchant but no back bar to proc others.

Merlin13KAGL

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Since dual wield enchantments are nerfed, can we reverse this? Make it so any weapon dot can proc an enchantment?

The only reasonable adjustment to this would be to allow full strength enchant if your main hand is the only one with an enchant.

DW is still very strong considering it's the only line that will grant you a second (third) enchant of choice. Half effectiveness is a reasonable trade off.

John_Falstaff

@Merlin13KAGL , the whole issue with this approach is precisely that - DW doesn't give third enchant of choice; it gives two half-enchants of choice - and the absolutely must be all different. So yes, I could really get behind the notion that if only main hand is enchanted, then the enchant has full power - that would let DW choose 1 + 1 scheme instead of 1 + 1/2 + 1/2.

Many ways of achieving parity if they want it. Make only main hand enchant active. Or make enchants of the same type stack (though it would leave 1H&S hanging). Make combining rule for enchants (so two same-kind enchants would be counted as one). Your idea about making the only enchanted hand be of full strength. It's just baffling that of all ways to nerf enchants, ZOS have chosen the worst.

Katinas

What about Restoration Staff skills? Is there some creative way to enable healing staff skills to proc your resto staff glyph other thank Light/Heavy attacks?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Aznox wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Since dual wield enchantments are nerfed, can we reverse this? Make it so any weapon dot can proc an enchantment?

This would push Torug builds over the top again, trust me.

Could you explain how? Destro touch and cleave tick every 2 seconds. Sure you get the extra damage from infused and TP but it ought to be manageable in PvP.

The following weapons are all able to proc more often than that from back-bar :

Bow (poison injection, acid spray, ballista, virulent shot)
DW (rending, blade cloack, lacerate)
Destro (touch, wild impulse, storm)

And even on front bar, even on a 2sec tick ... look at the current werewolf situation, because this is exactly that :
- Werewolf bleed procs one enchant per tick
- One tick on LA and one tick every two sec
-> Comparable to a LA/Destructive weave just with two enchant but no back bar to proc others.

The bold do not and would not proc enchants. They are from sets and not ablitys.

The italic are ultimates and can't be spammed.


Blade cloak already also procs enchants, every 3 seconds.

Are you just listing things you think would proc enchants and trying to point out how about adding one more ablity per weapon (bow gets 2 more) would be too much for PvP to handle? Is that your argument?

And I am a firm believer that WW should not proc enchants in the first place, I am aware zos say it is legit but makes no sense to me. Overload either.

2h is left in the cold with no way to proc the enchantment. At all.

Aznox

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Since dual wield enchantments are nerfed, can we reverse this? Make it so any weapon dot can proc an enchantment?

This would push Torug builds over the top again, trust me.

Could you explain how? Destro touch and cleave tick every 2 seconds. Sure you get the extra damage from infused and TP but it ought to be manageable in PvP.

The following weapons are all able to proc more often than that from back-bar :

Bow (poison injection, acid spray, ballista, virulent shot)
DW (rending, blade cloack, lacerate)
Destro (touch, wild impulse, storm)

And even on front bar, even on a 2sec tick ... look at the current werewolf situation, because this is exactly that :
- Werewolf bleed procs one enchant per tick
- One tick on LA and one tick every two sec
-> Comparable to a LA/Destructive weave just with two enchant but no back bar to proc others.

The bold do not and would not proc enchants. They are from sets and not ablitys.

The italic are ultimates and can't be spammed.


Blade cloak already also procs enchants, every 3 seconds.

Are you just listing things you think would proc enchants and trying to point out how about adding one more ablity per weapon (bow gets 2 more) would be too much for PvP to handle? Is that your argument?

And I am a firm believer that WW should not proc enchants in the first place, I am aware zos say it is legit but makes no sense to me. Overload either.

2h is left in the cold with no way to proc the enchantment. At all.

True about weapon sets dots, they never proc'ed enchants, i was mixing up with the merciless charge crit.

Does not change the fact that adding on-dots procs back would allow proc'ing of two full size Torug infused enchants as long as you have a bow back-bar. Thing that is currently recognized as too strong.

Front-bar : S&B (LA/Pierce) or DW (Rending) or 2H (Carve + LA/ClassSkill or LA/Reverse or LA/Upercut)

Back-bar : Poison injection + Acid Spray