Wolf_Watching wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »Greetings! Today the combat team would like to update you on some of our plans in regards to the popular topic and debates; enchantments and poisons! Recently we introduced a new system that allowed enchants and poisons to follow a better line of logic for triggering, which in turn has given us much more direct control on when and where they can fire off. In that process we originally allowed any Weapon Attack (any weapon skill line ability, Light Attack, or Heavy Attack) to trigger an enchant or a poison, and we've been closely monitoring feedback on how it has affected the game in many different avenues. Even after the recent fix to prevent multiple enchants from firing simultaneously, we're still not completely happy with how much damage enchants are granting with low effort input.
In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.
It's worth mentioning that a few of these issues were already highlighted during the PTS, and you may be upset that they went to Live without adjustments. We admit that we could have done a better job at taking in feedback and reacting accordingly to it. Amidst the large number of changes we made, we did not give enough time to this specific issue itself, as our attention was focused on other areas of feedback. Moving forward with our Class Rep Program and the new NDA in line, we have high hopes that the class representatives themselves will feel more empowered to continue pointing out larger topics that you, the community, are passionate about; so we can better adjust ourselves to tackling the issues that are most important.
Honestly, I am upset about this. I am not commenting on the merits of the change. What makes me made is that I have blown probably 300-400 transmute crystals, more gold mats than I can count, and close to half a million gold trying to adapt to this change.
I feel cheated!!!
I am all for quick adjustments, and I applaud you guys for jumping on the DW issue. It was over the top. But the change to allow dots to proc things was fundamental to all aspects of the game. It went live, and many of us spent resources to adapt to that change. For the first time ever, I want compensation for ZOS's incompetency.
And for the record, not trying to shoot the messenger. I like the transparency here.
I mean you are ridiculous. You could’ve have easily called out this would be nerfed w/in 3 months so you knew it would be wasted anyway. This is what you get for meta hopping instead of making your own build.
ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »Greetings! Today the combat team would like to update you on some of our plans in regards to the popular topic and debates; enchantments and poisons! Recently we introduced a new system that allowed enchants and poisons to follow a better line of logic for triggering, which in turn has given us much more direct control on when and where they can fire off. In that process we originally allowed any Weapon Attack (any weapon skill line ability, Light Attack, or Heavy Attack) to trigger an enchant or a poison, and we've been closely monitoring feedback on how it has affected the game in many different avenues. Even after the recent fix to prevent multiple enchants from firing simultaneously, we're still not completely happy with how much damage enchants are granting with low effort input.
In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.
It's worth mentioning that a few of these issues were already highlighted during the PTS, and you may be upset that they went to Live without adjustments. We admit that we could have done a better job at taking in feedback and reacting accordingly to it. Amidst the large number of changes we made, we did not give enough time to this specific issue itself, as our attention was focused on other areas of feedback. Moving forward with our Class Rep Program and the new NDA in line, we have high hopes that the class representatives themselves will feel more empowered to continue pointing out larger topics that you, the community, are passionate about; so we can better adjust ourselves to tackling the issues that are most important.
This is indeed a refreshing approach. One of 2 things has happened here;
a) new person on the team that still remembers the frustration of the stone wall that is the dev team and decided to push for this type of engaging response.
Or b) the backlash (forum fury and players leaving) was so big that they had no choice but to concede and publicly atone.
Either way, the important thing is what will ZOS learn from this?...
Communication is King!!
As much as I love this game, the company behind has proven itself to be very poor when it comes to communication.
- they dont respond well to obvious bugs. It sometimes takes months to get a "We're aware of this" post
- they dont take sufficient input from very vocal feedback. When an overwhelming voice on PTS is telling you something isn't working, to ignore that is, I'm sorry but, arrogant.
- it would appear that the class-rep was a resource that wasn't being correctly utilised by the dev team. It must be very painful for those reps to put in all that work, take all that flaming and at the end, feel their input wasn't being taken on-board.
I really hope ZOS that the take away from the negavity around this patch, will be a better company approach to communication with your customers.
Marshall1289 wrote: »Marshall1289 wrote: »Marshall1289 wrote: »Good change, I am incredibly skeptical about everything ZOS but I do think that it is good that it has been addressed relatively quickly. But does this change not effectively place them back to the pre murkmire area? Where wall and hail could proc them as well as direct/initial hits including LA/HA. Or is the % chance different too
@ZOS_Gilliam
Your offhand DW enchant wouldn't proc unless you light/heavy attacked, skills like rending slash have 2x initial hits that will both proc an enchant. They fixed out the bugs. Single target DoT's wont proc enchants, but now they actually work as intended.
And to piggy back off this, rending has 2 initial hits because it applies the snare effect and applies the first dot tick.
In case anyone wanted to know!
No, it actually has 2 slashes. The dot is a third tick that hits 1 second after, thats why the dot lasts for 9 seconds.
Edit: Maybe you meant 1 slash applies the DoT and the other applies the snare. That would be pretty interesting, but yeah, both those direct damage attacks should still proc enchants.
yea I remember they went through and changed DK passive to only apply snare off direct dmg portions of the dot abilities. This is the same thing (first hit applies the snare and then it's the first dot)
Though in weird ways, some players noticed taking 3+ hits off Total Dark and based on their description, its looking like TD considers rending 3 direct hits lol. Or maybe that was an enchant on the initial hit.
Good point, I just meant abilities with multiple direct damage hits. It doesn't really apply for force pulse because you can only have 1 enchant anyway, but the skill is a clear example of 1 ability with multiple direct damage hits. Forgot to take my meds.
anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »
Amidst the large number of changes we made, we did not give enough time to this specific issue itself, as our attention was focused on other areas of feedback.
Just hope this wont kill DW for tanks, having that stam steal glyph is pretty much the only thing keeping my NB tank alive.
Just hope this wont kill DW for tanks, having that stam steal glyph is pretty much the only thing keeping my NB tank alive.
You’d still imaginably be able to proc enchants such as weakening and crusher fairly reliably with blade cloak as long as you don’t la weave before it. Could replace blood craze with quick cloak and pair it with BRP dw for on demand major protection, too.
Olupajmibanan wrote: »So, isn't preventing single target dots from firing enchants basically a complete revert to the enchant change?
The only change is Glyph of Weapon Damage procing form abilities.
Fixed several issues with Poisons and Weapon Enchantments.
- All Poisons now correctly proc 20% of the time when any Light Attack, Heavy Attack, or weapon ability deals damage.
- Food and Drink will now provide the correct stat bonuses if they are consumed while you have a Poison equipped.
- All Weapon Enchantments now correctly proc 100% of the time when not on cooldown when any Light Attack, Heavy Attack, or weapon ability deals damage.
- When Dual Wielding, casting a weapon ability can now proc the Weapon Enchantment of either weapon. The system will favor proccing a Weapon Enchantment that is not on cooldown.
- Fixed an issue where both of your Dual Wield weapon enchantments were proccing from a single damage from Light Attack, Heavy Attack, or Weapon Ability.
Developer Comment:
Abilities that deal damage multiple times with a single cast, such as Flurry which has 5 hits or Twin Slashes which has 2 direct damage hits and several damage over time ticks, can proc both of your weapon enchantments over those hits. But each isolated instance of damage should only be able to proc one weapon enchantment at a time.
In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.
Just hope this wont kill DW for tanks, having that stam steal glyph is pretty much the only thing keeping my NB tank alive.
You’d still imaginably be able to proc enchants such as weakening and crusher fairly reliably with blade cloak as long as you don’t la weave before it. Could replace blood craze with quick cloak and pair it with BRP dw for on demand major protection, too.
I say that since NB Tanks dont really have a way to regain stamina whilst blocking like a DK or Warden do. Sustain comes from Siphoning which is a burst every 20 seconds and 100 on a light attack.
Running a stam steal glyph back bar would allow for a steady stream of stamina, rather than praying for either siphoning to pop, or a pot to be ready when under high pressure.
Olupajmibanan wrote: »So, isn't preventing single target dots from firing enchants basically a complete revert to the enchant change?
The only change is Glyph of Weapon Damage procing form abilities.
Let's have a look at the changes that were made. Then the changes to the changes. Then the proposed future changes to the changed changes.Fixed several issues with Poisons and Weapon Enchantments.
- All Poisons now correctly proc 20% of the time when any Light Attack, Heavy Attack, or weapon ability deals damage.
- Food and Drink will now provide the correct stat bonuses if they are consumed while you have a Poison equipped.
- All Weapon Enchantments now correctly proc 100% of the time when not on cooldown when any Light Attack, Heavy Attack, or weapon ability deals damage.
- When Dual Wielding, casting a weapon ability can now proc the Weapon Enchantment of either weapon. The system will favor proccing a Weapon Enchantment that is not on cooldown.
^^^ Live release Murkmire patch notes
- Fixed an issue where both of your Dual Wield weapon enchantments were proccing from a single damage from Light Attack, Heavy Attack, or Weapon Ability.
Developer Comment:
Abilities that deal damage multiple times with a single cast, such as Flurry which has 5 hits or Twin Slashes which has 2 direct damage hits and several damage over time ticks, can proc both of your weapon enchantments over those hits. But each isolated instance of damage should only be able to proc one weapon enchantment at a time.
^^^ Incremental patch notesIn a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.
^^^ Gilliam's most recent statement
@Olupajmibanan Currently, the only "reversion" of the changes have been so that dual-wield enchants don't proc simultaneously upon cooldown. I.E. One light attack proccing both enchants. A skill like rending slashes, with two simultaneous direct damage attacks will still proc both enchants.
As for the proposed changes. Only single-target, target-based DoTs will be affected. For Destro staff - wall of elements = unchanged, bow - endless hail = unchanged. I can't give examples on S&B or 2H as I don't utilize that playstyle on any of my characters.
TL;DR - The bottom line is the proposed change is not a "complete revert" of the enchantment changes made for Murkmire.
Even before murkmire, endless hail and blockade were proccing enchants while on your front bar. So this is basically a roll back of murkmire changes, but doesn't address the underlying imbalance of DW getting 2 full strength enchants (you know, what everyone was complaining about). Instead it just nerfs enchants across the board so they have less impact on DPS.
It's also pretty clear that the class reps are pushing their agenda, since this same "solution" was discussed by some of them. Why not a real solution that addresses DW and brings closer parity between DW and the other weapons?
ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »Greetings! Today the combat team would like to update you on some of our plans in regards to the popular topic and debates; enchantments and poisons! Recently we introduced a new system that allowed enchants and poisons to follow a better line of logic for triggering, which in turn has given us much more direct control on when and where they can fire off. In that process we originally allowed any Weapon Attack (any weapon skill line ability, Light Attack, or Heavy Attack) to trigger an enchant or a poison, and we've been closely monitoring feedback on how it has affected the game in many different avenues. Even after the recent fix to prevent multiple enchants from firing simultaneously, we're still not completely happy with how much damage enchants are granting with low effort input.
In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.
It's worth mentioning that a few of these issues were already highlighted during the PTS, and you may be upset that they went to Live without adjustments. We admit that we could have done a better job at taking in feedback and reacting accordingly to it. Amidst the large number of changes we made, we did not give enough time to this specific issue itself, as our attention was focused on other areas of feedback. Moving forward with our Class Rep Program and the new NDA in line, we have high hopes that the class representatives themselves will feel more empowered to continue pointing out larger topics that you, the community, are passionate about; so we can better adjust ourselves to tackling the issues that are most important.
- Update 23Ice Furnace: This item set now grants Spell Damage, rather than Weapon Damage for the 4 piece bonus
Pre-murkmire, dual wield already had two functional weapon enchants, it was just badly coded so the game was trying to proc one at random without checking if it was currently on cooldown. Result was unreliable and with bad luck the game could sometimes keep trying to proc berserker 5 times in a row while the other enchant was ready to fire.
Also, people who will now start complaining about dw getting two enchants need to remember balance between weapon skill lines was always asymmetrical. Now that enchant focused build is going to stop being game-wide BiS,, we need to go back to looking at the big picture.
Wolf_Watching wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »Greetings! Today the combat team would like to update you on some of our plans in regards to the popular topic and debates; enchantments and poisons! Recently we introduced a new system that allowed enchants and poisons to follow a better line of logic for triggering, which in turn has given us much more direct control on when and where they can fire off. In that process we originally allowed any Weapon Attack (any weapon skill line ability, Light Attack, or Heavy Attack) to trigger an enchant or a poison, and we've been closely monitoring feedback on how it has affected the game in many different avenues. Even after the recent fix to prevent multiple enchants from firing simultaneously, we're still not completely happy with how much damage enchants are granting with low effort input.
In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.
It's worth mentioning that a few of these issues were already highlighted during the PTS, and you may be upset that they went to Live without adjustments. We admit that we could have done a better job at taking in feedback and reacting accordingly to it. Amidst the large number of changes we made, we did not give enough time to this specific issue itself, as our attention was focused on other areas of feedback. Moving forward with our Class Rep Program and the new NDA in line, we have high hopes that the class representatives themselves will feel more empowered to continue pointing out larger topics that you, the community, are passionate about; so we can better adjust ourselves to tackling the issues that are most important.
Honestly, I am upset about this. I am not commenting on the merits of the change. What makes me made is that I have blown probably 300-400 transmute crystals, more gold mats than I can count, and close to half a million gold trying to adapt to this change.
I feel cheated!!!
I am all for quick adjustments, and I applaud you guys for jumping on the DW issue. It was over the top. But the change to allow dots to proc things was fundamental to all aspects of the game. It went live, and many of us spent resources to adapt to that change. For the first time ever, I want compensation for ZOS's incompetency.
And for the record, not trying to shoot the messenger. I like the transparency here.
I mean you are ridiculous. You could’ve have easily called out this would be nerfed w/in 3 months so you knew it would be wasted anyway. This is what you get for meta hopping instead of making your own build.