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Adjustments to How Weapon Enchants and Poisons Trigger

  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
    Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    Greetings! Today the combat team would like to update you on some of our plans in regards to the popular topic and debates; enchantments and poisons! Recently we introduced a new system that allowed enchants and poisons to follow a better line of logic for triggering, which in turn has given us much more direct control on when and where they can fire off. In that process we originally allowed any Weapon Attack (any weapon skill line ability, Light Attack, or Heavy Attack) to trigger an enchant or a poison, and we've been closely monitoring feedback on how it has affected the game in many different avenues. Even after the recent fix to prevent multiple enchants from firing simultaneously, we're still not completely happy with how much damage enchants are granting with low effort input.

    In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.

    It's worth mentioning that a few of these issues were already highlighted during the PTS, and you may be upset that they went to Live without adjustments. We admit that we could have done a better job at taking in feedback and reacting accordingly to it. Amidst the large number of changes we made, we did not give enough time to this specific issue itself, as our attention was focused on other areas of feedback. Moving forward with our Class Rep Program and the new NDA in line, we have high hopes that the class representatives themselves will feel more empowered to continue pointing out larger topics that you, the community, are passionate about; so we can better adjust ourselves to tackling the issues that are most important.


    Honestly, I am upset about this. I am not commenting on the merits of the change. What makes me made is that I have blown probably 300-400 transmute crystals, more gold mats than I can count, and close to half a million gold trying to adapt to this change.

    I feel cheated!!!

    I am all for quick adjustments, and I applaud you guys for jumping on the DW issue. It was over the top. But the change to allow dots to proc things was fundamental to all aspects of the game. It went live, and many of us spent resources to adapt to that change. For the first time ever, I want compensation for ZOS's incompetency.

    And for the record, not trying to shoot the messenger. I like the transparency here.

    I mean you are ridiculous. You could’ve have easily called out this would be nerfed w/in 3 months so you knew it would be wasted anyway. This is what you get for meta hopping instead of making your own build.

    Huge difference between 3 months, (a full patch)and a week. I excpect to spend gold and resources each patch to upgrade my gear, in fact, I enjoy it. What I don’t like is doing it 3 times in a week, which is going to be the case. Again, I am not arguing the merits of the changes, simply how they were implemented. But what the heck, I’ll lay out what went down from my point of view.

    Personally, I thought the DW issue was obviously broken, and I spent very little to test and play with it. If you read my prior comments on this issue, I supported a fast change because it was Insane. I ran it for a day or two in pvp, it was certainly over performing and heavily favored stamina builds.

    They then make a quick and specific change to how DW enchants will work. It was very atypical of zos to do that sort of thing, but I was glad they did. There was no indication that they planned to take it any further. The new echnant meta seemed to be upon is. It was obvious on the pts it was going to be this way. DOTs procing enchants was talked about at length as it was a big change in both pvp and pve. It was reasonable to expect it to continue.

    At that point, I decided to go all in on my build and play to that meta. On Magic for me personally, that meant finding a way to double bar a destro staff so I could proc a back bar dot (just like stam was already doing with Cleave or PI), which in turn meant dropping a resto staff, a big change for my playstyle that caused a large shift in my gear setup. I did some theory crafting, bought a fair amount of new gear, and ultimately spent a lot of resources to make the build. 24 hours later, I am back to the drawing board, because again they are changing a fundamental game mechanic on live rather than PTS. I am all for minor adjustments as the need arises, but this is a pretty big change. Again not arguing the merits. It was certainly strong but it was balanced. Nobody had a real advantage except perhaps Templar (purge). There was every reason to expect it to persist until the next patch, as it always does.

    I don’t always agree with every meta change they make, but typically I use the PTS cycle to predict where things are going, and I play to it to some degree, because frankly you are at a disadvantage if you don’t. It’s just frustrating because I did my homework, blew a lot of resources, once I thought the dust had settled, and now I have to do it again. Do I think anything is going to happen? Of course not. I am not naive. I just think this thing is a symptom of a bigger problem. By their own admission, they bit of more than they could chew, and it’s negatively impacting their game.

    Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on October 31, 2018 3:58PM
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
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    Thank you Gilliam for the sincere and professional response. Glad to see a balance issue being addressed during an incremental instead of just major updates. Looking forward to the fix!
    PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
    Kalazar ChalhoubRedguard Nord Stamplar
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden
  • Morgul667
    Morgul667
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    Thanks ! Appreciate the effort to communicate

    Please help to save the game (Performance and combat balance are key issues for many players)
  • bpmachete
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    My man @ZOS_Gilliam coming in clutch
  • Monsieur
    Monsieur
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    Well played @ZOS_Gilliam and dare I say I hope you keep this up.

    There is no shame in admitting you made a mistake, and the transparency is a breath of fresh air.
    Posts like these will go a long way to restoring faith in ZOS’s ability to do the right thing with this game.
  • coplannb16_ESO
    coplannb16_ESO
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    Greetings! Today the combat team would like to update you on some of our plans in regards to the popular topic and debates; enchantments and poisons! Recently we introduced a new system that allowed enchants and poisons to follow a better line of logic for triggering, which in turn has given us much more direct control on when and where they can fire off. In that process we originally allowed any Weapon Attack (any weapon skill line ability, Light Attack, or Heavy Attack) to trigger an enchant or a poison, and we've been closely monitoring feedback on how it has affected the game in many different avenues. Even after the recent fix to prevent multiple enchants from firing simultaneously, we're still not completely happy with how much damage enchants are granting with low effort input.

    In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.

    It's worth mentioning that a few of these issues were already highlighted during the PTS, and you may be upset that they went to Live without adjustments. We admit that we could have done a better job at taking in feedback and reacting accordingly to it. Amidst the large number of changes we made, we did not give enough time to this specific issue itself, as our attention was focused on other areas of feedback. Moving forward with our Class Rep Program and the new NDA in line, we have high hopes that the class representatives themselves will feel more empowered to continue pointing out larger topics that you, the community, are passionate about; so we can better adjust ourselves to tackling the issues that are most important.

    I agree with the general direction. The enchantment is on the weapon thus it should only trigger when the weapon is used (LA, HA, weapon ability).

    BUT DW-enchantments are still outperforming 2h, staff, S/B and bow then.

    even for me as magicka player in PvP dual wield enchants using melee-LA and class skill outperforms running a staff and using LA and class skills.

    at least DW has some downsides in comparison to 2H (no heal, no gap-closer) and bow (range), but what about magicka?

    We need a dual-wield magicka weapon line ASAP. it could as well be more for close range combat in my book (offering similar choices DW vs Bow / Staff vs Dual Wield Wand/Orb/whatever) and would greatly synergize with magDK and MagPlar gameplay, esp. magDKs who are forced into melee range...
    max level: mDK, stamBlade, stamSorc, magPlar, mDen, stamDen, magBlade, stamCro
    ESO+
    # of mules: 4 (FULL)
    maxed bank: FULL -_-
    Stop the grind! Get rid of stupid events and daily-quest gallore. Get rid of "have a chance of 1 in a million to get a piece of 1 in 30 to get a stupid motif or pet... wtf..."
    And at this point just remove all classes and have everyone choose their set of skills. then balance accordingly to skills always used vs. skills never used.
  • Hotdog_23
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    Thanks for the change but please clearly state in the tooltips of each skill as to how and if they fire off poisons or enchantments.

    One weak point I think is how the tooltips for each skill does not state what type of damage it is and whether or not it produces poisons or enchantments or even which champion points affect it. Some skills have multiple types of damage. I know the tool tip is probably big enough for this but could you at least put it in the help section along with the information for both morphs. As a console user this would be extremely helpful. I really don’t understand why this information is not already in the help section.
  • Zypheran
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    This is indeed a refreshing approach. One of 2 things has happened here;
    a) new person on the team that still remembers the frustration of the stone wall that is the dev team and decided to push for this type of engaging response.
    Or b) the backlash (forum fury and players leaving) was so big that they had no choice but to concede and publicly atone.
    Either way, the important thing is what will ZOS learn from this?...
    Communication is King!!
    As much as I love this game, the company behind has proven itself to be very poor when it comes to communication.
    - they dont respond well to obvious bugs. It sometimes takes months to get a "We're aware of this" post
    - they dont take sufficient input from very vocal feedback. When an overwhelming voice on PTS is telling you something isn't working, to ignore that is, I'm sorry but, arrogant.
    - it would appear that the class-rep was a resource that wasn't being correctly utilised by the dev team. It must be very painful for those reps to put in all that work, take all that flaming and at the end, feel their input wasn't being taken on-board.

    I really hope ZOS that the take away from the negavity around this patch, will be a better company approach to communication with your customers.
    Edited by Zypheran on October 31, 2018 8:48AM
    All my housing builds are available on YouTube
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCf3oJ_cxuu01HmWZJZ6KK6g?view_as=subscriber
    I am happy to share the EHT save files for most of my builds.
  • jcm2606
    jcm2606
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    Zypheran wrote: »
    This is indeed a refreshing approach. One of 2 things has happened here;
    a) new person on the team that still remembers the frustration of the stone wall that is the dev team and decided to push for this type of engaging response.
    Or b) the backlash (forum fury and players leaving) was so big that they had no choice but to concede and publicly atone.
    Either way, the important thing is what will ZOS learn from this?...
    Communication is King!!
    As much as I love this game, the company behind has proven itself to be very poor when it comes to communication.
    - they dont respond well to obvious bugs. It sometimes takes months to get a "We're aware of this" post
    - they dont take sufficient input from very vocal feedback. When an overwhelming voice on PTS is telling you something isn't working, to ignore that is, I'm sorry but, arrogant.
    - it would appear that the class-rep was a resource that wasn't being correctly utilised by the dev team. It must be very painful for those reps to put in all that work, take all that flaming and at the end, feel their input wasn't being taken on-board.

    I really hope ZOS that the take away from the negavity around this patch, will be a better company approach to communication with your customers.

    I wish I could give you many agrees, my dude.
  • Parobro
    Parobro
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    so rending slashes will not proc 2x glyph from bleed, only once from initial hit? thats fine with me if it is so.
  • Ultravylence
    Ultravylence
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    We can all agree the Murkmire enchantment change felt over-tuned. But it felt over-tuned on the PTS and ZOS received a metric ton of feedback, and ignored it all without any communication to the community on the matter. Players have been and would have continued to adjust to Enchantments just as they will to the latest nerfs.

    ZOS then allows the change to go LIVE, of course players are going to spend gold, materials and most importantly TIME to adjust and re-gear for this change in both PVP/PVE.

    ZOS should find a much better way of apologizing to its user base then a reactionary openness to a situation AFTER they have made their initial DLC sales and drained the economy of gold and materials with this knee-jerk reaction.
  • Feric51
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    Ranger209 wrote: »
    Own wrote: »
    Don't forget bleeds from d/w and 2h passives

    And cleave as well? That is not a single target dot, but I am assuming you could use it and then swap bars to dual wield and get the benefits?

    Since cleave is a two-handed ability, it will only ever proc the enchantment (singular) on the two-handed weapon you were using when you applied it, regardless if you swap bars to a dual-wield setup.

    This was one of the changes they reverted with Wolfhunter patch. Weapon enchants have sometimes procced based on the weapon you had equipped when you applied them, and sometimes based on on what bar you were on. I understand the possible confusion, but as of now if you apply cleave on the backbar, it will only continue to proc the backbar weapon enchants.
    Feric51
    Xbox NA

    Darkness Falls: The Crusade survivor (you young kids will never know the struggle of text-based games)


  • Minno
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    Minno wrote: »
    Minno wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Good change, I am incredibly skeptical about everything ZOS but I do think that it is good that it has been addressed relatively quickly. But does this change not effectively place them back to the pre murkmire area? Where wall and hail could proc them as well as direct/initial hits including LA/HA. Or is the % chance different too

    @ZOS_Gilliam

    Your offhand DW enchant wouldn't proc unless you light/heavy attacked, skills like rending slash have 2x initial hits that will both proc an enchant. They fixed out the bugs. Single target DoT's wont proc enchants, but now they actually work as intended.

    And to piggy back off this, rending has 2 initial hits because it applies the snare effect and applies the first dot tick.

    In case anyone wanted to know!

    No, it actually has 2 slashes. The dot is a third tick that hits 1 second after, thats why the dot lasts for 9 seconds.

    Edit: Maybe you meant 1 slash applies the DoT and the other applies the snare. That would be pretty interesting, but yeah, both those direct damage attacks should still proc enchants.

    yea I remember they went through and changed DK passive to only apply snare off direct dmg portions of the dot abilities. This is the same thing (first hit applies the snare and then it's the first dot)

    Though in weird ways, some players noticed taking 3+ hits off Total Dark and based on their description, its looking like TD considers rending 3 direct hits lol. Or maybe that was an enchant on the initial hit.

    Good point, I just meant abilities with multiple direct damage hits. It doesn't really apply for force pulse because you can only have 1 enchant anyway, but the skill is a clear example of 1 ability with multiple direct damage hits. Forgot to take my meds.

    No worries! All part of a greater discussion!
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • Minno
    Minno
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    Minno wrote: »
    Now that's how you respond professionally lol.

    Yes, very true, the change is bluffing, roflmao :D
    (Nothing against you Gillian, it would be the same for all of us in a similar situation. It's just truly funny :D )

    Except I was being sincere.
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • Kanar
    Kanar
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    DW overperforms so they nerf everything.
    Amidst the large number of changes we made, we did not give enough time to this specific issue itself, as our attention was focused on other areas of feedback.

    Here's the admission that all the sorc whining and crying prevented the devs from doing a proper job of considering all the PTS feedback. IE, those who cry the loudest get all the attention, while other, real issues slip through.
    Edited by Kanar on October 31, 2018 1:49PM
  • Olupajmibanan
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    So, isn't preventing single target dots from firing enchants basically a complete revert to the enchant change?
    The only change is Glyph of Weapon Damage procing form abilities.
    Edited by Olupajmibanan on October 31, 2018 2:43PM
  • Sparr0w
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    Just hope this wont kill DW for tanks, having that stam steal glyph is pretty much the only thing keeping my NB tank alive.
    @Sparr0w so I get the notification
    Xbox (EU) - l Sparrow x | CP 810+
    DD: All Mag + Stam
    Heal: Templar | Sorc | NB | Warden | Necro
    Tank: NB | DK | Warden
    Completions: All HM's + TTT + IR + GH
    PC (EU) - Sparrxw | CP 810+
    DD: All Mag + Stam
    Heal: Templar | Sorc
    Tank: DK | NB
    Completions: All HM's + TTT + IR + GH + GS
  • jypcy
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    Sparr0w wrote: »
    Just hope this wont kill DW for tanks, having that stam steal glyph is pretty much the only thing keeping my NB tank alive.

    You’d still imaginably be able to proc enchants such as weakening and crusher fairly reliably with blade cloak as long as you don’t la weave before it. Could replace blood craze with quick cloak and pair it with BRP dw for on demand major protection, too.

    Edit: actually remembered that the damage ticks occur every 3 seconds, not every 5. So, not perfect, but could still be a strategy for dw tanks.
    Edited by jypcy on October 31, 2018 3:11PM
  • Sparr0w
    Sparr0w
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    jypcy wrote: »
    Sparr0w wrote: »
    Just hope this wont kill DW for tanks, having that stam steal glyph is pretty much the only thing keeping my NB tank alive.

    You’d still imaginably be able to proc enchants such as weakening and crusher fairly reliably with blade cloak as long as you don’t la weave before it. Could replace blood craze with quick cloak and pair it with BRP dw for on demand major protection, too.

    I say that since NB Tanks dont really have a way to regain stamina whilst blocking like a DK or Warden do. Sustain comes from Siphoning which is a burst every 20 seconds and 100 on a light attack.

    Running a stam steal glyph back bar would allow for a steady stream of stamina, rather than praying for either siphoning to pop, or a pot to be ready when under high pressure.
    @Sparr0w so I get the notification
    Xbox (EU) - l Sparrow x | CP 810+
    DD: All Mag + Stam
    Heal: Templar | Sorc | NB | Warden | Necro
    Tank: NB | DK | Warden
    Completions: All HM's + TTT + IR + GH
    PC (EU) - Sparrxw | CP 810+
    DD: All Mag + Stam
    Heal: Templar | Sorc
    Tank: DK | NB
    Completions: All HM's + TTT + IR + GH + GS
  • Feric51
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    So, isn't preventing single target dots from firing enchants basically a complete revert to the enchant change?
    The only change is Glyph of Weapon Damage procing form abilities.

    Let's have a look at the changes that were made. Then the changes to the changes. Then the proposed future changes to the changed changes.



    Fixed several issues with Poisons and Weapon Enchantments.
    • All Poisons now correctly proc 20% of the time when any Light Attack, Heavy Attack, or weapon ability deals damage.
    • Food and Drink will now provide the correct stat bonuses if they are consumed while you have a Poison equipped.
    • All Weapon Enchantments now correctly proc 100% of the time when not on cooldown when any Light Attack, Heavy Attack, or weapon ability deals damage.
    • When Dual Wielding, casting a weapon ability can now proc the Weapon Enchantment of either weapon. The system will favor proccing a Weapon Enchantment that is not on cooldown.

    ^^^ Live release Murkmire patch notes



    • Fixed an issue where both of your Dual Wield weapon enchantments were proccing from a single damage from Light Attack, Heavy Attack, or Weapon Ability.
      Developer Comment:
      Abilities that deal damage multiple times with a single cast, such as Flurry which has 5 hits or Twin Slashes which has 2 direct damage hits and several damage over time ticks, can proc both of your weapon enchantments over those hits. But each isolated instance of damage should only be able to proc one weapon enchantment at a time.

    ^^^ Incremental patch notes


    In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.

    ^^^ Gilliam's most recent statement

    @Olupajmibanan Currently, the only "reversion" of the changes have been so that dual-wield enchants don't proc simultaneously upon cooldown. I.E. One light attack proccing both enchants. A skill like rending slashes, with two simultaneous direct damage attacks will still proc both enchants.

    As for the proposed changes. Only single-target, target-based DoTs will be affected. For Destro staff - wall of elements = unchanged, bow - endless hail = unchanged. I can't give examples on S&B or 2H as I don't utilize that playstyle on any of my characters.

    TL;DR - The bottom line is the proposed change is not a "complete revert" of the enchantment changes made for Murkmire.
    Feric51
    Xbox NA

    Darkness Falls: The Crusade survivor (you young kids will never know the struggle of text-based games)


  • jypcy
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    Sparr0w wrote: »
    jypcy wrote: »
    Sparr0w wrote: »
    Just hope this wont kill DW for tanks, having that stam steal glyph is pretty much the only thing keeping my NB tank alive.

    You’d still imaginably be able to proc enchants such as weakening and crusher fairly reliably with blade cloak as long as you don’t la weave before it. Could replace blood craze with quick cloak and pair it with BRP dw for on demand major protection, too.

    I say that since NB Tanks dont really have a way to regain stamina whilst blocking like a DK or Warden do. Sustain comes from Siphoning which is a burst every 20 seconds and 100 on a light attack.

    Running a stam steal glyph back bar would allow for a steady stream of stamina, rather than praying for either siphoning to pop, or a pot to be ready when under high pressure.

    Yeah, and actually I’d mistakenly thought that blade cloak was every 5 seconds, not 3, so absorb stamina still wouldn’t be a bad idea on backbar. Not proccing on cd like it would with blood craze, but it’d still work.
  • Kanar
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    Feric51 wrote: »
    So, isn't preventing single target dots from firing enchants basically a complete revert to the enchant change?
    The only change is Glyph of Weapon Damage procing form abilities.

    Let's have a look at the changes that were made. Then the changes to the changes. Then the proposed future changes to the changed changes.



    Fixed several issues with Poisons and Weapon Enchantments.
    • All Poisons now correctly proc 20% of the time when any Light Attack, Heavy Attack, or weapon ability deals damage.
    • Food and Drink will now provide the correct stat bonuses if they are consumed while you have a Poison equipped.
    • All Weapon Enchantments now correctly proc 100% of the time when not on cooldown when any Light Attack, Heavy Attack, or weapon ability deals damage.
    • When Dual Wielding, casting a weapon ability can now proc the Weapon Enchantment of either weapon. The system will favor proccing a Weapon Enchantment that is not on cooldown.

    ^^^ Live release Murkmire patch notes



    • Fixed an issue where both of your Dual Wield weapon enchantments were proccing from a single damage from Light Attack, Heavy Attack, or Weapon Ability.
      Developer Comment:
      Abilities that deal damage multiple times with a single cast, such as Flurry which has 5 hits or Twin Slashes which has 2 direct damage hits and several damage over time ticks, can proc both of your weapon enchantments over those hits. But each isolated instance of damage should only be able to proc one weapon enchantment at a time.

    ^^^ Incremental patch notes


    In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.

    ^^^ Gilliam's most recent statement

    @Olupajmibanan Currently, the only "reversion" of the changes have been so that dual-wield enchants don't proc simultaneously upon cooldown. I.E. One light attack proccing both enchants. A skill like rending slashes, with two simultaneous direct damage attacks will still proc both enchants.

    As for the proposed changes. Only single-target, target-based DoTs will be affected. For Destro staff - wall of elements = unchanged, bow - endless hail = unchanged. I can't give examples on S&B or 2H as I don't utilize that playstyle on any of my characters.

    TL;DR - The bottom line is the proposed change is not a "complete revert" of the enchantment changes made for Murkmire.

    Even before murkmire, endless hail and blockade were proccing enchants while on your front bar. So this is basically a roll back of murkmire changes, but doesn't address the underlying imbalance of DW getting 2 full strength enchants (you know, what everyone was complaining about). Instead it just nerfs enchants across the board so they have less impact on DPS.

    It's also pretty clear that the class reps are pushing their agenda, since this same "solution" was discussed by some of them. Why not a real solution that addresses DW and brings closer parity between DW and the other weapons?
  • rabidmyers
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    hell yeah fish gill
    at a place nobody knows
  • HappyElephant
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    Feric51 wrote: »
    Let's have a look at the changes that were made. Then the changes to the changes. Then the proposed future changes to the changed changes.



    I second this. I am completely confused with all the enchant changes: past, present and future.
  • Feric51
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    Kanar wrote: »

    Even before murkmire, endless hail and blockade were proccing enchants while on your front bar. So this is basically a roll back of murkmire changes, but doesn't address the underlying imbalance of DW getting 2 full strength enchants (you know, what everyone was complaining about). Instead it just nerfs enchants across the board so they have less impact on DPS.

    It's also pretty clear that the class reps are pushing their agenda, since this same "solution" was discussed by some of them. Why not a real solution that addresses DW and brings closer parity between DW and the other weapons?

    You're correct about backbar abilities proccing backbar weapon enchants even while on your front bar being in place prior to Murkmire.

    The Murkmire changes were more specifically targeted towards dual-wield, predominantly the off-hand weapon enchant now proccing in addition to the main hand. I haven't played a stam character in a long time, but I was thinking the only way (prior to Murkmire) to get the off-hand weapon enchant to proc was during heavy attacks. Anecdotally I seem to remember recharging my main hand weapon exponentially more than my off-hand weapon, and it seemed like all abilities and light attacks would only ever proc that main hand.

    So a true rollback of the Murkmire changes would be to eliminate the potential for the off-hand weapon's enchantment to proc on anything but heavy attacks. This is not happening, so therefore not a rollback.......

    All the mentions of other weapon style's enchantments sounded like they were simply fixing any bugs related to the reliability of them proccing when they should rather than gaining some magical new ability to proc where they couldn't pre-Murkmire.



    Edit for grammar.
    Edited by Feric51 on October 31, 2018 4:45PM
    Feric51
    Xbox NA

    Darkness Falls: The Crusade survivor (you young kids will never know the struggle of text-based games)


  • Aznox
    Aznox
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pre-murkmire, dual wield already had two functional weapon enchants, it was just badly coded so the game was trying to proc one at random without checking if it was currently on cooldown. Result was unreliable and with bad luck the game could sometimes keep trying to proc berserker 5 times in a row while the other enchant was ready to fire.

    Also, people who will now start complaining about dw getting two enchants need to remember balance between weapon skill lines was always asymmetrical. Now that enchant focused build is going to stop being game-wide BiS,, we need to go back to looking at the big picture.
    Edited by Aznox on October 31, 2018 4:55PM
    Aznox
    PC EU
    Khajiit Orc Bosmer Stamina Sorcerer and Werewolf Stage 3 Vampire
    I live in Battlegrounds
    Theorycrafting enthusiast
    Official Cheese Lord
    CP1500+ club
  • KingLogix
    KingLogix
    ✭✭✭
    Greetings! Today the combat team would like to update you on some of our plans in regards to the popular topic and debates; enchantments and poisons! Recently we introduced a new system that allowed enchants and poisons to follow a better line of logic for triggering, which in turn has given us much more direct control on when and where they can fire off. In that process we originally allowed any Weapon Attack (any weapon skill line ability, Light Attack, or Heavy Attack) to trigger an enchant or a poison, and we've been closely monitoring feedback on how it has affected the game in many different avenues. Even after the recent fix to prevent multiple enchants from firing simultaneously, we're still not completely happy with how much damage enchants are granting with low effort input.

    In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.

    It's worth mentioning that a few of these issues were already highlighted during the PTS, and you may be upset that they went to Live without adjustments. We admit that we could have done a better job at taking in feedback and reacting accordingly to it. Amidst the large number of changes we made, we did not give enough time to this specific issue itself, as our attention was focused on other areas of feedback. Moving forward with our Class Rep Program and the new NDA in line, we have high hopes that the class representatives themselves will feel more empowered to continue pointing out larger topics that you, the community, are passionate about; so we can better adjust ourselves to tackling the issues that are most important.

    this is awesome to see! Thank you guys for being on top of this
  • Zer0oo
    Zer0oo
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yeah, not all hope lost.
    Ice Furnace: This item set now grants Spell Damage, rather than Weapon Damage for the 4 piece bonus
    - Update 23
  • Kanar
    Kanar
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Aznox wrote: »
    Pre-murkmire, dual wield already had two functional weapon enchants, it was just badly coded so the game was trying to proc one at random without checking if it was currently on cooldown. Result was unreliable and with bad luck the game could sometimes keep trying to proc berserker 5 times in a row while the other enchant was ready to fire.

    Also, people who will now start complaining about dw getting two enchants need to remember balance between weapon skill lines was always asymmetrical. Now that enchant focused build is going to stop being game-wide BiS,, we need to go back to looking at the big picture.

    You're the one who is new to the DW enchant discussion; those of us who have cared about balance between DW, 2h and bow have been discussing this imbalance for a long time. You can go back and look at my discussions in summerset PTS if you want.

    It's never been hard to proc offhand enchants. Well, maybe if you're bad. Twin slashes proced offhand before, and every other light attack proced offhand.

    The "big picture" is exactly what's being ignored by these recent enchant changes - that DW is leagues ahead of 2h or bow/bow and part of that is caused by two full-strength enchants.
    Edited by Kanar on October 31, 2018 5:42PM
  • KingLogix
    KingLogix
    ✭✭✭
    Greetings! Today the combat team would like to update you on some of our plans in regards to the popular topic and debates; enchantments and poisons! Recently we introduced a new system that allowed enchants and poisons to follow a better line of logic for triggering, which in turn has given us much more direct control on when and where they can fire off. In that process we originally allowed any Weapon Attack (any weapon skill line ability, Light Attack, or Heavy Attack) to trigger an enchant or a poison, and we've been closely monitoring feedback on how it has affected the game in many different avenues. Even after the recent fix to prevent multiple enchants from firing simultaneously, we're still not completely happy with how much damage enchants are granting with low effort input.

    In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.

    It's worth mentioning that a few of these issues were already highlighted during the PTS, and you may be upset that they went to Live without adjustments. We admit that we could have done a better job at taking in feedback and reacting accordingly to it. Amidst the large number of changes we made, we did not give enough time to this specific issue itself, as our attention was focused on other areas of feedback. Moving forward with our Class Rep Program and the new NDA in line, we have high hopes that the class representatives themselves will feel more empowered to continue pointing out larger topics that you, the community, are passionate about; so we can better adjust ourselves to tackling the issues that are most important.


    Honestly, I am upset about this. I am not commenting on the merits of the change. What makes me made is that I have blown probably 300-400 transmute crystals, more gold mats than I can count, and close to half a million gold trying to adapt to this change.

    I feel cheated!!!

    I am all for quick adjustments, and I applaud you guys for jumping on the DW issue. It was over the top. But the change to allow dots to proc things was fundamental to all aspects of the game. It went live, and many of us spent resources to adapt to that change. For the first time ever, I want compensation for ZOS's incompetency.

    And for the record, not trying to shoot the messenger. I like the transparency here.

    I mean you are ridiculous. You could’ve have easily called out this would be nerfed w/in 3 months so you knew it would be wasted anyway. This is what you get for meta hopping instead of making your own build.

    get em coach!
    message me on xbox bro
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