Adjustments to How Weapon Enchants and Poisons Trigger

Cinbri

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.

It was indeed why encahnts wasn't overperforming indeed. When enemy, for example, could just do steps out of your wall of eleemnts to counter it.
What about Blade Cloak? It cast-and-forget aoe and unlike ground aoes cant be countered by move out of aoe zone because it self-buff.
P.S.: poison bug fix please too.

Feric51

Cinbri wrote: »

What about Blade Cloak? It cast-and-forget aoe and unlike ground aoes cant be countered by move out of aoe zone because it self-buff.
P.S.: poison bug fix please too.

Blade cloak only ticks every 3 seconds, and as long as you stay ranged from the person you avoid the ticks. So, yes, you can move out of the AoE zone unlike a single-target DoT that you could streak 400m from the enemy and still have the ticks applied.

jypcy wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

TL:DR

We reverted the changes with Murkmire xD

Not exactly. They fixed out the bugs. Enchants proc more reliably and the only exception now is single target DoTs, direct damage hits like rending slashes and force pulse "should" proc more than 1 enchant on cast.

For years we had to use Poison enchants on your mainhand DW because it would not proc from weapon abilities in your offhand. Berserker enchant would only proc off light/heavy attacks. Now it procs off skills in the offhand.

I probably don’t fully grasp the series of changes that have been made to enchant procs, but how would force pulse proc multiple enchants? Wouldn’t it still be the case that enchants proc only from attacks on the bar they were fired from, and thus force pulse, cast from a staff with a single enchant, could only proc a single enchant?

I assume OP was trying to think of an example of a weapon line skill that does multiple direct damage and simply forgot this whole multi-enchant proccing nightmare was really only an issue with dual-wield users. Magicka users most likely won't even notice this latest adjustment as long as you're effectively weaving light/heavy attacks and/or using multiple weapon skills.

code65536

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

We admit that we could have done a better job at taking in feedback and reacting accordingly to it. Amidst the large number of changes we made, we did not give enough time to this specific issue itself, as our attention was focused on other areas of feedback.

Maybe you folks will learn from this that balance is best done with a scalpel and not a sledgehammer?

Minno

code65536 wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

We admit that we could have done a better job at taking in feedback and reacting accordingly to it. Amidst the large number of changes we made, we did not give enough time to this specific issue itself, as our attention was focused on other areas of feedback.

Maybe you folks will learn from this that balance is best done with a scalpel and not a sledgehammer?

And the community wonders why ZOS doesn't take more time to directly respond to posts lol.

Jake1576

So what happens to poison injection now it basically is getting a nerf because inchantment and poisons can't proc on it now poison injection as an execute is already weak could It's a dot execute i always like my poisons proc on it to help now it will suck if poisons can't proc on poison injection

tactx

Great, basically "all your transmute crystals that you just used switching weapons over to take advantage of a new content release are now wasted and you have to farm again to likely revert in such a short period of time because we can't test properly."

Minno

Jake1576 wrote: »

So what happens to poison injection now it basically is getting a nerf because inchantment and poisons can't proc on it now poison injection as an execute is already weak could It's a dot execute i always like my poisons proc on it to help now it will suck if poisons can't proc on poison injection

would be interesting if the AOE snare with poison dot will proc enchants.

MashmalloMan

Minno wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Good change, I am incredibly skeptical about everything ZOS but I do think that it is good that it has been addressed relatively quickly. But does this change not effectively place them back to the pre murkmire area? Where wall and hail could proc them as well as direct/initial hits including LA/HA. Or is the % chance different too

@ZOS_Gilliam

Your offhand DW enchant wouldn't proc unless you light/heavy attacked, skills like rending slash have 2x initial hits that will both proc an enchant. They fixed out the bugs. Single target DoT's wont proc enchants, but now they actually work as intended.

And to piggy back off this, rending has 2 initial hits because it applies the snare effect and applies the first dot tick.

In case anyone wanted to know!

No, it actually has 2 slashes. The dot is a third tick that hits 1 second after, thats why the dot lasts for 9 seconds.

Edit: Maybe you meant 1 slash applies the DoT and the other applies the snare. That would be pretty interesting, but yeah, both those direct damage attacks should still proc enchants.

yea I remember they went through and changed DK passive to only apply snare off direct dmg portions of the dot abilities. This is the same thing (first hit applies the snare and then it's the first dot)

Though in weird ways, some players noticed taking 3+ hits off Total Dark and based on their description, its looking like TD considers rending 3 direct hits lol. Or maybe that was an enchant on the initial hit.

Good point, I just meant abilities with multiple direct damage hits. It doesn't really apply for force pulse because you can only have 1 enchant anyway, but the skill is a clear example of 1 ability with multiple direct damage hits. Forgot to take my meds.

Fallewarrior

Once again, the elite will adapt and us casuals are left behind again not knowing what to do.


Oh wait

HappyElephant

If you are going to nerf your enchant buff, can we have VO revert back to the way it was?

MashmalloMan

Jake1576 wrote: »

So what happens to poison injection now it basically is getting a nerf because inchantment and poisons can't proc on it now poison injection as an execute is already weak could It's a dot execute i always like my poisons proc on it to help now it will suck if poisons can't proc on poison injection

The point is you can't fire and forget with single target dot's and get guaranteed enchantment procs. The first direct damage hit of poison injection will still proc enchants, as will light attacks and other abilities.

So if your in pvp, your better off using weapon damage berserker enchant on a bow back bar since it has a longer duration and you would spend less time on that bar. For front bar bows it's not really an issue because you should be focusing 1 target anyway.

PI is very strong, I love it as an execute DoT.

MashmalloMan

Minno wrote: »

Jake1576 wrote: »

So what happens to poison injection now it basically is getting a nerf because inchantment and poisons can't proc on it now poison injection as an execute is already weak could It's a dot execute i always like my poisons proc on it to help now it will suck if poisons can't proc on poison injection

would be interesting if the AOE snare with poison dot will proc enchants.

Based on the post, he mentioned Carve as an example for a condition as something that shouldn't proc enchants from the bleed. This skill behaves practically the same as Acid Spray so I'm assuming the DoT from that ability would not proc enchants.

jypcy

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Good change, I am incredibly skeptical about everything ZOS but I do think that it is good that it has been addressed relatively quickly. But does this change not effectively place them back to the pre murkmire area? Where wall and hail could proc them as well as direct/initial hits including LA/HA. Or is the % chance different too

@ZOS_Gilliam

Your offhand DW enchant wouldn't proc unless you light/heavy attacked, skills like rending slash have 2x initial hits that will both proc an enchant. They fixed out the bugs. Single target DoT's wont proc enchants, but now they actually work as intended.

And to piggy back off this, rending has 2 initial hits because it applies the snare effect and applies the first dot tick.

In case anyone wanted to know!

No, it actually has 2 slashes. The dot is a third tick that hits 1 second after, thats why the dot lasts for 9 seconds.

Edit: Maybe you meant 1 slash applies the DoT and the other applies the snare. That would be pretty interesting, but yeah, both those direct damage attacks should still proc enchants.

yea I remember they went through and changed DK passive to only apply snare off direct dmg portions of the dot abilities. This is the same thing (first hit applies the snare and then it's the first dot)

Though in weird ways, some players noticed taking 3+ hits off Total Dark and based on their description, its looking like TD considers rending 3 direct hits lol. Or maybe that was an enchant on the initial hit.

Good point, I just meant abilities with multiple direct damage hits. It doesn't really apply for force pulse because you can only have 1 enchant anyway, but the skill is a clear example of 1 ability with multiple direct damage hits. Forgot to take my meds.

Nw, and yeah it’s a good example. I just wanted to make sure I wasn’t missing something when build planning. Like, if FP now procc’d the staff’s enchant thrice upon each cast when it’s off cd, then that sounds brokenly op but would be a definite reason to choose it over some other spammables

GreenHere

THIS is exactly the kind of communication we always wanted and deserved from ZOS on hot topics. Thank you for addressing the issue directly, and talking with us like we're people who actually matter to the company.

Your candor and insight is greatly appreciated, @ZOS_Gilliam! ZOS is lucky to have you onboard; and so are we.



The only complaint I have here is that I can't give an Insightful, Agree, and Awesome all on the same post!

NyxWrench

Question 1: Are your adjustments going to be treating damage enchants+poisons separately from buff/debuff enchants? Damage enchants have a base 5 second cooldown (or rough equivalent, for poisons), while buffs/debuffs have a base 10 second cooldown, so the manner in which the weapon damage procs affected each of them was different. Most of the problems seem to be tied to the damage enchantments being too easily stacked.

Question 2: The excessive single-target DOT procs seemed to mainly be a problem with dual-wield setups. Other weapons have fewer options (with restoration staff and sword-and-board having none at all). Is that getting consideration in your review of which abilities to affect?


My thoughts at the moment would be that single-target DOTs should still proc buffs/debuffs, but not damage enchants. AOE DOTs should be able to proc either type of enchant.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Greetings! Today the combat team would like to update you on some of our plans in regards to the popular topic and debates; enchantments and poisons! Recently we introduced a new system that allowed enchants and poisons to follow a better line of logic for triggering, which in turn has given us much more direct control on when and where they can fire off. In that process we originally allowed any Weapon Attack (any weapon skill line ability, Light Attack, or Heavy Attack) to trigger an enchant or a poison, and we've been closely monitoring feedback on how it has affected the game in many different avenues. Even after the recent fix to prevent multiple enchants from firing simultaneously, we're still not completely happy with how much damage enchants are granting with low effort input.

In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.

It's worth mentioning that a few of these issues were already highlighted during the PTS, and you may be upset that they went to Live without adjustments. We admit that we could have done a better job at taking in feedback and reacting accordingly to it. Amidst the large number of changes we made, we did not give enough time to this specific issue itself, as our attention was focused on other areas of feedback. Moving forward with our Class Rep Program and the new NDA in line, we have high hopes that the class representatives themselves will feel more empowered to continue pointing out larger topics that you, the community, are passionate about; so we can better adjust ourselves to tackling the issues that are most important.

Honestly, I am upset about this. I am not commenting on the merits of the change. What makes me made is that I have blown probably 300-400 transmute crystals, more gold mats than I can count, and close to half a million gold trying to adapt to this change.

I feel cheated!!!

I am all for quick adjustments, and I applaud you guys for jumping on the DW issue. It was over the top. But the change to allow dots to proc things was fundamental to all aspects of the game. It went live, and many of us spent resources to adapt to that change. For the first time ever, I want compensation for ZOS's incompetency.

And for the record, not trying to shoot the messenger. I like the transparency here.

Dottzgaming

Awesome to see a post from ZOS_Gilliam
Also glad to see a response from you guys on this, and a great one at that. Great solution to the problem! Thanks for the update, cant wait to see it rolled out.

usmcjdking

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Greetings! Today the combat team would like to update you on some of our plans in regards to the popular topic and debates; enchantments and poisons! Recently we introduced a new system that allowed enchants and poisons to follow a better line of logic for triggering, which in turn has given us much more direct control on when and where they can fire off. In that process we originally allowed any Weapon Attack (any weapon skill line ability, Light Attack, or Heavy Attack) to trigger an enchant or a poison, and we've been closely monitoring feedback on how it has affected the game in many different avenues. Even after the recent fix to prevent multiple enchants from firing simultaneously, we're still not completely happy with how much damage enchants are granting with low effort input.

In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.

It's worth mentioning that a few of these issues were already highlighted during the PTS, and you may be upset that they went to Live without adjustments. We admit that we could have done a better job at taking in feedback and reacting accordingly to it. Amidst the large number of changes we made, we did not give enough time to this specific issue itself, as our attention was focused on other areas of feedback. Moving forward with our Class Rep Program and the new NDA in line, we have high hopes that the class representatives themselves will feel more empowered to continue pointing out larger topics that you, the community, are passionate about; so we can better adjust ourselves to tackling the issues that are most important.

Honestly, I am upset about this. I am not commenting on the merits of the change. What makes me made is that I have blown probably 300-400 transmute crystals, more gold mats than I can count, and close to half a million gold trying to adapt to this change.

I feel cheated!!!

I am all for quick adjustments, and I applaud you guys for jumping on the DW issue. It was over the top. But the change to allow dots to proc things was fundamental to all aspects of the game. It went live, and many of us spent resources to adapt to that change. For the first time ever, I want compensation for ZOS's incompetency.

And for the record, not trying to shoot the messenger. I like the transparency here.

I mean if you vest resources into something that is so blatantly outperforming everything else, you should not be surprised when it gets gutted.

I mean I get you enjoy using it, but do you think it's fair to hit a single button and put an uncounterable 3-4k DPS on a target such as myself? Or anyone else?

Other people play this game, a lot of them will not or refuse to adopt a change so obviously broken out of nothing other than a sense of responsibility to all the other people I PVP with and against. We are not in a position where we can afford to lose many more PVPers for the sake of "lolcheese good fun". The incoming PVP population is not replenishing the lost PVPers due to imbalance, boredom, poor performance and broken gameplay.

ccmedaddy

Yes!!!!! Thank you for the update.

Now, the tears of all those meta chasers on the forums will keep me nourished for the next few days.

Wuuffyy

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Greetings! Today the combat team would like to update you on some of our plans in regards to the popular topic and debates; enchantments and poisons! Recently we introduced a new system that allowed enchants and poisons to follow a better line of logic for triggering, which in turn has given us much more direct control on when and where they can fire off. In that process we originally allowed any Weapon Attack (any weapon skill line ability, Light Attack, or Heavy Attack) to trigger an enchant or a poison, and we've been closely monitoring feedback on how it has affected the game in many different avenues. Even after the recent fix to prevent multiple enchants from firing simultaneously, we're still not completely happy with how much damage enchants are granting with low effort input.

In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.

It's worth mentioning that a few of these issues were already highlighted during the PTS, and you may be upset that they went to Live without adjustments. We admit that we could have done a better job at taking in feedback and reacting accordingly to it. Amidst the large number of changes we made, we did not give enough time to this specific issue itself, as our attention was focused on other areas of feedback. Moving forward with our Class Rep Program and the new NDA in line, we have high hopes that the class representatives themselves will feel more empowered to continue pointing out larger topics that you, the community, are passionate about; so we can better adjust ourselves to tackling the issues that are most important.

Honestly, I am upset about this. I am not commenting on the merits of the change. What makes me made is that I have blown probably 300-400 transmute crystals, more gold mats than I can count, and close to half a million gold trying to adapt to this change.

I feel cheated!!!

I am all for quick adjustments, and I applaud you guys for jumping on the DW issue. It was over the top. But the change to allow dots to proc things was fundamental to all aspects of the game. It went live, and many of us spent resources to adapt to that change. For the first time ever, I want compensation for ZOS's incompetency.

And for the record, not trying to shoot the messenger. I like the transparency here.

I mean you are ridiculous. You could’ve have easily called out this would be nerfed w/in 3 months so you knew it would be wasted anyway. This is what you get for meta hopping instead of making your own build.

Ranger209

Own wrote: »

Don't forget bleeds from d/w and 2h passives

And cleave as well? That is not a single target dot, but I am assuming you could use it and then swap bars to dual wield and get the benefits?

anitajoneb17_ESO

Minno wrote: »

Now that's how you respond professionally lol.

Yes, very true, the change is bluffing, roflmao
(Nothing against you Gillian, it would be the same for all of us in a similar situation. It's just truly funny )

lpw

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Honestly, I am upset about this. I am not commenting on the merits of the change. What makes me made is that I have blown probably 300-400 transmute crystals, more gold mats than I can count, and close to half a million gold trying to adapt to this change.

In the same position. Spent easily 500k on gear and mats for these changes for PVP in the past few days and now need to go back to what I was using before the patch?

I'm all for balance changes in incremental patches and clear communication, but can't help but feel a little cheated 😭

ccmedaddy

HappyElephant

#ESOhatesfun

smee_z

@ZOS_Gilliam

Much, much, much, ... much appreciated!

Thank you.

Galalin

Talking about to much free damage now what about bleeds? Or dos ZoS not acknowledge there is an issue with these either?

Jakx

Gilliam our savior. The only hope inside the Eso development team.

Royalthought

Was REALLY hoping weapon/spell damage enchants still worked with single target DoTs.

Perhaps aoe dots could proc damage enchants and single target dots could proc buffs?

RedRook

Good to hear. This is the right adjustment, I think, to make the enchantment change something we can all adapt to instead of... you know, really horrible for the PVP.

Happy to see Gilliam in here. waves (Remember, the rescue word is "marmalade".)