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Adjustments to How Weapon Enchants and Poisons Trigger

  • Cinbri
    Cinbri
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    Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.
    It was indeed why encahnts wasn't overperforming indeed. When enemy, for example, could just do steps out of your wall of eleemnts to counter it.
    What about Blade Cloak? It cast-and-forget aoe and unlike ground aoes cant be countered by move out of aoe zone because it self-buff.
    P.S.: poison bug fix please too.
    Edited by Cinbri on October 30, 2018 7:37PM
  • Feric51
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    Cinbri wrote: »
    What about Blade Cloak? It cast-and-forget aoe and unlike ground aoes cant be countered by move out of aoe zone because it self-buff.
    P.S.: poison bug fix please too.

    Blade cloak only ticks every 3 seconds, and as long as you stay ranged from the person you avoid the ticks. So, yes, you can move out of the AoE zone unlike a single-target DoT that you could streak 400m from the enemy and still have the ticks applied.

    jypcy wrote: »
    Qbiken wrote: »
    TL:DR

    We reverted the changes with Murkmire xD

    Not exactly. They fixed out the bugs. Enchants proc more reliably and the only exception now is single target DoTs, direct damage hits like rending slashes and force pulse "should" proc more than 1 enchant on cast.

    For years we had to use Poison enchants on your mainhand DW because it would not proc from weapon abilities in your offhand. Berserker enchant would only proc off light/heavy attacks. Now it procs off skills in the offhand.

    I probably don’t fully grasp the series of changes that have been made to enchant procs, but how would force pulse proc multiple enchants? Wouldn’t it still be the case that enchants proc only from attacks on the bar they were fired from, and thus force pulse, cast from a staff with a single enchant, could only proc a single enchant?

    I assume OP was trying to think of an example of a weapon line skill that does multiple direct damage and simply forgot this whole multi-enchant proccing nightmare was really only an issue with dual-wield users. Magicka users most likely won't even notice this latest adjustment as long as you're effectively weaving light/heavy attacks and/or using multiple weapon skills.


    Edited by Feric51 on October 30, 2018 7:42PM
    Feric51
    Xbox NA

    Darkness Falls: The Crusade survivor (you young kids will never know the struggle of text-based games)


  • Jake1576
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    So what happens to poison injection now it basically is getting a nerf because inchantment and poisons can't proc on it now poison injection as an execute is already weak could It's a dot execute i always like my poisons proc on it to help now it will suck if poisons can't proc on poison injection
    Stars
  • tactx
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    Great, basically "all your transmute crystals that you just used switching weapons over to take advantage of a new content release are now wasted and you have to farm again to likely revert in such a short period of time because we can't test properly."

    “No one's happiness but my own is in my power to achieve or to destroy.” - John Galt, Atlas Shrugged
  • Minno
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    Jake1576 wrote: »
    So what happens to poison injection now it basically is getting a nerf because inchantment and poisons can't proc on it now poison injection as an execute is already weak could It's a dot execute i always like my poisons proc on it to help now it will suck if poisons can't proc on poison injection

    would be interesting if the AOE snare with poison dot will proc enchants.
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • Marshall1289
    Marshall1289
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    Minno wrote: »
    Minno wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Good change, I am incredibly skeptical about everything ZOS but I do think that it is good that it has been addressed relatively quickly. But does this change not effectively place them back to the pre murkmire area? Where wall and hail could proc them as well as direct/initial hits including LA/HA. Or is the % chance different too

    @ZOS_Gilliam

    Your offhand DW enchant wouldn't proc unless you light/heavy attacked, skills like rending slash have 2x initial hits that will both proc an enchant. They fixed out the bugs. Single target DoT's wont proc enchants, but now they actually work as intended.

    And to piggy back off this, rending has 2 initial hits because it applies the snare effect and applies the first dot tick.

    In case anyone wanted to know!

    No, it actually has 2 slashes. The dot is a third tick that hits 1 second after, thats why the dot lasts for 9 seconds.

    Edit: Maybe you meant 1 slash applies the DoT and the other applies the snare. That would be pretty interesting, but yeah, both those direct damage attacks should still proc enchants.

    yea I remember they went through and changed DK passive to only apply snare off direct dmg portions of the dot abilities. This is the same thing (first hit applies the snare and then it's the first dot)

    Though in weird ways, some players noticed taking 3+ hits off Total Dark and based on their description, its looking like TD considers rending 3 direct hits lol. Or maybe that was an enchant on the initial hit.

    Good point, I just meant abilities with multiple direct damage hits. It doesn't really apply for force pulse because you can only have 1 enchant anyway, but the skill is a clear example of 1 ability with multiple direct damage hits. Forgot to take my meds.
    Edited by Marshall1289 on October 30, 2018 9:03PM
    Played since PC Beta and PS4 Launch - 9xx CP

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    Mag Sorc Altmer || Mag DK Dunmer
  • Fallewarrior
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    Once again, the elite will adapt and us casuals are left behind again not knowing what to do.


    Oh wait :trollface:
    -Fallen | TICK TOCK TORMENTERR | IMMORTAL MEMERR | GRYPHON HEART


    PC/EU
  • HappyElephant
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    If you are going to nerf your enchant buff, can we have VO revert back to the way it was?
  • Marshall1289
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    Jake1576 wrote: »
    So what happens to poison injection now it basically is getting a nerf because inchantment and poisons can't proc on it now poison injection as an execute is already weak could It's a dot execute i always like my poisons proc on it to help now it will suck if poisons can't proc on poison injection

    The point is you can't fire and forget with single target dot's and get guaranteed enchantment procs. The first direct damage hit of poison injection will still proc enchants, as will light attacks and other abilities.

    So if your in pvp, your better off using weapon damage berserker enchant on a bow back bar since it has a longer duration and you would spend less time on that bar. For front bar bows it's not really an issue because you should be focusing 1 target anyway.

    PI is very strong, I love it as an execute DoT.
    Edited by Marshall1289 on October 30, 2018 9:10PM
    Played since PC Beta and PS4 Launch - 9xx CP

    Stam Sorc Redguard PvE Main || Stam Sorc Orc PvP Main
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    Mag Sorc Altmer || Mag DK Dunmer
  • Marshall1289
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    Minno wrote: »
    Jake1576 wrote: »
    So what happens to poison injection now it basically is getting a nerf because inchantment and poisons can't proc on it now poison injection as an execute is already weak could It's a dot execute i always like my poisons proc on it to help now it will suck if poisons can't proc on poison injection

    would be interesting if the AOE snare with poison dot will proc enchants.

    Based on the post, he mentioned Carve as an example for a condition as something that shouldn't proc enchants from the bleed. This skill behaves practically the same as Acid Spray so I'm assuming the DoT from that ability would not proc enchants.
    Played since PC Beta and PS4 Launch - 9xx CP

    Stam Sorc Redguard PvE Main || Stam Sorc Orc PvP Main
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    Mag Sorc Altmer || Mag DK Dunmer
  • jypcy
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    Minno wrote: »
    Minno wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Good change, I am incredibly skeptical about everything ZOS but I do think that it is good that it has been addressed relatively quickly. But does this change not effectively place them back to the pre murkmire area? Where wall and hail could proc them as well as direct/initial hits including LA/HA. Or is the % chance different too

    @ZOS_Gilliam

    Your offhand DW enchant wouldn't proc unless you light/heavy attacked, skills like rending slash have 2x initial hits that will both proc an enchant. They fixed out the bugs. Single target DoT's wont proc enchants, but now they actually work as intended.

    And to piggy back off this, rending has 2 initial hits because it applies the snare effect and applies the first dot tick.

    In case anyone wanted to know!

    No, it actually has 2 slashes. The dot is a third tick that hits 1 second after, thats why the dot lasts for 9 seconds.

    Edit: Maybe you meant 1 slash applies the DoT and the other applies the snare. That would be pretty interesting, but yeah, both those direct damage attacks should still proc enchants.

    yea I remember they went through and changed DK passive to only apply snare off direct dmg portions of the dot abilities. This is the same thing (first hit applies the snare and then it's the first dot)

    Though in weird ways, some players noticed taking 3+ hits off Total Dark and based on their description, its looking like TD considers rending 3 direct hits lol. Or maybe that was an enchant on the initial hit.

    Good point, I just meant abilities with multiple direct damage hits. It doesn't really apply for force pulse because you can only have 1 enchant anyway, but the skill is a clear example of 1 ability with multiple direct damage hits. Forgot to take my meds.

    Nw, and yeah it’s a good example. I just wanted to make sure I wasn’t missing something when build planning. Like, if FP now procc’d the staff’s enchant thrice upon each cast when it’s off cd, then that sounds brokenly op but would be a definite reason to choose it over some other spammables :smile:
  • GreenHere
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    THIS is exactly the kind of communication we always wanted and deserved from ZOS on hot topics. Thank you for addressing the issue directly, and talking with us like we're people who actually matter to the company.

    Your candor and insight is greatly appreciated, @ZOS_Gilliam! ZOS is lucky to have you onboard; and so are we.



    The only complaint I have here is that I can't give an Insightful, Agree, and Awesome all on the same post!
    PC :: ESO+ subscriber
  • NyxWrench
    NyxWrench
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    Question 1: Are your adjustments going to be treating damage enchants+poisons separately from buff/debuff enchants? Damage enchants have a base 5 second cooldown (or rough equivalent, for poisons), while buffs/debuffs have a base 10 second cooldown, so the manner in which the weapon damage procs affected each of them was different. Most of the problems seem to be tied to the damage enchantments being too easily stacked.

    Question 2: The excessive single-target DOT procs seemed to mainly be a problem with dual-wield setups. Other weapons have fewer options (with restoration staff and sword-and-board having none at all). Is that getting consideration in your review of which abilities to affect?


    My thoughts at the moment would be that single-target DOTs should still proc buffs/debuffs, but not damage enchants. AOE DOTs should be able to proc either type of enchant.
    Edited by NyxWrench on October 30, 2018 9:37PM
  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    Greetings! Today the combat team would like to update you on some of our plans in regards to the popular topic and debates; enchantments and poisons! Recently we introduced a new system that allowed enchants and poisons to follow a better line of logic for triggering, which in turn has given us much more direct control on when and where they can fire off. In that process we originally allowed any Weapon Attack (any weapon skill line ability, Light Attack, or Heavy Attack) to trigger an enchant or a poison, and we've been closely monitoring feedback on how it has affected the game in many different avenues. Even after the recent fix to prevent multiple enchants from firing simultaneously, we're still not completely happy with how much damage enchants are granting with low effort input.

    In a future incremental we'll be updating which abilities cannot fire enchantments or poisons. The changes will only affect single target Damage over Time abilities, or abilities that apply a single target DoT (such as Carve or Rend). The reasoning behind this is based on the usage and effort required for these abilities. Single target DoTs generally offer very steady damage that's more guaranteed compared to Direct Damage or ground targeted effects that require your opponent to stand inside them, and allowing powerful enchants to apply multiple times over their duration was enabling too much damage for too little effort.

    It's worth mentioning that a few of these issues were already highlighted during the PTS, and you may be upset that they went to Live without adjustments. We admit that we could have done a better job at taking in feedback and reacting accordingly to it. Amidst the large number of changes we made, we did not give enough time to this specific issue itself, as our attention was focused on other areas of feedback. Moving forward with our Class Rep Program and the new NDA in line, we have high hopes that the class representatives themselves will feel more empowered to continue pointing out larger topics that you, the community, are passionate about; so we can better adjust ourselves to tackling the issues that are most important.


    Honestly, I am upset about this. I am not commenting on the merits of the change. What makes me made is that I have blown probably 300-400 transmute crystals, more gold mats than I can count, and close to half a million gold trying to adapt to this change.

    I feel cheated!!!

    I am all for quick adjustments, and I applaud you guys for jumping on the DW issue. It was over the top. But the change to allow dots to proc things was fundamental to all aspects of the game. It went live, and many of us spent resources to adapt to that change. For the first time ever, I want compensation for ZOS's incompetency.

    And for the record, not trying to shoot the messenger. I like the transparency here.
    Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on October 30, 2018 10:01PM
    Alliance/Platform: Ebonheart Pact - PC/NA - CP 1,100ish

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  • Dottzgaming
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    Awesome to see a post from ZOS_Gilliam ;)
    Also glad to see a response from you guys on this, and a great one at that. Great solution to the problem! Thanks for the update, cant wait to see it rolled out.
    PC | NA | Dippin Dottz GM | ESO Stream Team Member
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  • Ranger209
    Ranger209
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    Own wrote: »
    Don't forget bleeds from d/w and 2h passives

    And cleave as well? That is not a single target dot, but I am assuming you could use it and then swap bars to dual wield and get the benefits?
  • anitajoneb17_ESO
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    Minno wrote: »
    Now that's how you respond professionally lol.

    Yes, very true, the change is bluffing, roflmao :D
    (Nothing against you Gillian, it would be the same for all of us in a similar situation. It's just truly funny :D )

  • lpw
    lpw
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    Honestly, I am upset about this. I am not commenting on the merits of the change. What makes me made is that I have blown probably 300-400 transmute crystals, more gold mats than I can count, and close to half a million gold trying to adapt to this change.

    In the same position. Spent easily 500k on gear and mats for these changes for PVP in the past few days and now need to go back to what I was using before the patch?

    I'm all for balance changes in incremental patches and clear communication, but can't help but feel a little cheated 😭
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  • HappyElephant
    HappyElephant
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    #ESOhatesfun
  • smee_z
    smee_z
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    @ZOS_Gilliam

    Much, much, much, ... much appreciated!

    Thank you.
    PC NA

    Games are meant to be played.

    Back in Auriel's Bow 1.0, I have thought that the best way to handicap a faction with the HUGE pop advantage is to temporarily disable their grouping functionality and their ability to fight in 3rd person point of view! Let's see if these do not even up the odds.
  • Galalin
    Galalin
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    Talking about to much free damage now what about bleeds? Or dos ZoS not acknowledge there is an issue with these either?
    DK SCRUB OUT
  • Jakx
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    Gilliam our savior. The only hope inside the Eso development team.
    Joined September 2013
  • Royalthought
    Royalthought
    Soul Shriven
    Was REALLY hoping weapon/spell damage enchants still worked with single target DoTs.

    Perhaps aoe dots could proc damage enchants and single target dots could proc buffs?
  • RedRook
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    Good to hear. This is the right adjustment, I think, to make the enchantment change something we can all adapt to instead of... you know, really horrible for the PVP.

    Happy to see Gilliam in here. waves (Remember, the rescue word is "marmalade".)
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