FYI: Updates on Class Rep Program

VaxtinTheWolf · October 2018

Really, the only thing we can do is wait and save judgement until the next major update to see if this has any noticeable effect. If it starts immediately, then it means they will know what's coming and can discuss those potential changes in the VIP backroom. When those PTS patch notes arrive, we can compare the past with the future at that point to see how bad or good the next changes turn out to be.

SantieClaws · October 2018

If a more honest conversation can be had and that moves things forward in a way that makes for a better Tamriel then confidentiality is just fine.

It also takes some pressure of the reps, this one would imagine, as now it is quite clear and out there that they won't be giving away secrets, they can't, therefore simply don't ask that of them in the first place. Well some are bound to ask anyway.

Khajiit has had some strange things asked of herself from time to time and she has not so much even peeped through the back windows of their realm. Not once. Not the little ground level window with no curtains and a dodgy lock. No not that window at all ...

Yours with paws
Santie Claws

pkuronen · October 2018

Do the class reps represent the developer for the community or vice versa? I mean that are they the voice of developer brought closer to the community? Or do they just do silent testing and report back to developers?

I am feeling a lack of communication between the developers and the community. I see loads of questions thrown in to the forum with no answers other than fellow community member guesswork.

Lark82 · October 2018

Dymence wrote: »

Androconium wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

Sorry I fail to see how this helps the community in any way what so ever

If you sign an NDA it means YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DISCUSS ANYTHING TO DO WITH DISCUSSIONS RELATED TO THE CONEXT OF THE NDA

In that respect it’s more like a gagging order than any way to aid communications. If fact they are explicitly designed to inhibit them!

So I’m afraid this is just utter nonsense

I'm afraid that you're right.

I'm afraid that you and many others in this thread are completely missing the point.

Currently devs will not share info about big changes regarding combat balance with the reps in early stages. The reps learn everything at the same time we do.

With the signing of the NDA, the devs will have more freedom in the info they disclose to the reps, so that reps may quench concerns at a much earlier stage, allowing the dev team to consider appropriate changes over a longer timespan than they are currently where it mostly just ends up with "we're sticking with it".

So what does this NDA mean for the rest of us? Effectively nothing. Things will stay the same as is for the rest of us. We will learn about combat changes and balancing when the patches hit PTS. The important difference is that by the time they hit PTS, the reps will already have had a chance to give their input on said changes. They just won't be allowed to tell us anything before the PTS stage.

This!!

Zer0oo · October 2018

Class reps will get notice about bad changes before the rest so they can QQ longer and it still will hit live?

Also, why not reintroduce the monthly combat updates? Or at least publish some grand combat plan for each class.

xxthir13enxx · October 2018

Heh the only thing the Class Reps were representing us for prior to this NDA was our shared ignorance...all they could discuss was the Current state of the game...which we Already do in these forums...we need the Reps acting on our behalf for Ideas the Devs have of the Future...and to get them Back on track for what we as a community desire

Sandman929 · October 2018

If there are grand designs at work that aren't ready to be revealed to the public yet, at least the reps will get a sneak peek. I've got doubts that those designs exist beyond new costumes and cosmetics, but I hope I'm wrong.

Minno · October 2018

Dymence wrote: »

Androconium wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

Sorry I fail to see how this helps the community in any way what so ever

If you sign an NDA it means YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DISCUSS ANYTHING TO DO WITH DISCUSSIONS RELATED TO THE CONEXT OF THE NDA

In that respect it’s more like a gagging order than any way to aid communications. If fact they are explicitly designed to inhibit them!

So I’m afraid this is just utter nonsense

I'm afraid that you're right.

I'm afraid that you and many others in this thread are completely missing the point.

Currently devs will not share info about big changes regarding combat balance with the reps in early stages. The reps learn everything at the same time we do.

With the signing of the NDA, the devs will have more freedom in the info they disclose to the reps, so that reps may quench concerns at a much earlier stage, allowing the dev team to consider appropriate changes over a longer timespan than they are currently where it mostly just ends up with "we're sticking with it".

So what does this NDA mean for the rest of us? Effectively nothing. Things will stay the same as is for the rest of us. We will learn about combat changes and balancing when the patches hit PTS. The important difference is that by the time they hit PTS, the reps will already have had a chance to give their input on said changes. They just won't be allowed to tell us anything before the PTS stage.

This 100%.

Galarthor · October 2018

Turelus wrote: »

NDA means ZOS can actually talk about updates long before they're due.

Reps will be able to know what skill lines or classes are in the works months before ZOS announce them, know what is in the works for any upcoming combat changes being conceptualised but not ready to be announced etc.

It's a good thing if people want the reps to have more input in things, otherwise they have to wait for everything to be public knowledge. We saw how well that worked with the shield changes coming out of nowhere for them.

NDA also means ZOS decides what we get to know from these meetings. They can decide how to paint the picture and nobody is there to provide an alternative point of view. It might be like war propaganda where your country is still winning the war despite losing every battle and being driven back at high speeds.

Hexys · October 2018

Dymence wrote: »

I'm afraid that you and many others in this thread are completely missing the point.

Currently devs will not share info about big changes regarding combat balance with the reps in early stages. The reps learn everything at the same time we do.

With the signing of the NDA, the devs will have more freedom in the info they disclose to the reps, so that reps may quench concerns at a much earlier stage, allowing the dev team to consider appropriate changes over a longer timespan than they are currently where it mostly just ends up with "we're sticking with it".

So what does this NDA mean for the rest of us? Effectively nothing. Things will stay the same as is for the rest of us. We will learn about combat changes and balancing when the patches hit PTS. The important difference is that by the time they hit PTS, the reps will already have had a chance to give their input on said changes. They just won't be allowed to tell us anything before the PTS stage.

Well said @Dymence

Acrolas · October 2018

Galarthor wrote: »

NDA also means ZOS decides what we get to know from these meetings. They can decide how to paint the picture and nobody is there to provide an alternative point of view. It might be like war propaganda where your country is still winning the war despite losing every battle and being driven back at high speeds.

I'm certain that class reps will be permitted to review meeting notes to check for accuracy and completeness prior to their publication. And that once those notes are published, those points can be discussed by anyone. The reps just can't bring in evidence from unannounced and unreleased story content, passives, skill lines, etc, while discussing those notes.

I'm more troubled that you chose to leap into a propaganda comparison. It's great to question and critically think about what bias or biases an editorial may have. But there's a difference between having specific concerns based on prior actions and behaviors, and having a strong passive distrust that doesn't consider context.

Chrysa1is · October 2018

Elitists only club

Joy_Division · October 2018

Some people live in their own deluded world.

I don't know what else to say, but those people who think that ZOS is somehow controlling us, muzzling us, or in anyway making it so we represent them rather than the community are misinformed.

Before NDA, ZOS could not tell us anything beyond the immediate next patch, so you didn't hear anything from them and we were incapable of saying anything because we weren't told anything. You weren't getting that sort of info and you couldn't give any feedback on that info because none of us had it. It's not like the NDA is changing anything in that regard.

What is changing is now we will have the ability to preempt questionable changes before they hit the PTS.

GreenHere · October 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Some people live in their own deluded world.

I don't know what else to say, but those people who think that ZOS is somehow controlling us, muzzling us, or in anyway making it so we represent them rather than the community are misinformed.

Before NDA, ZOS could not tell us anything beyond the immediate next patch, so you didn't hear anything from them and we were incapable of saying anything because we weren't told anything. You weren't getting that sort of info and you couldn't give any feedback on that info because none of us had it. It's not like the NDA is changing anything in that regard.

What is changing is now we will have the ability to preempt questionable changes before they hit the PTS.

Exactly what someone who was being controlled by the corporations would say!! Illuminati confirmed!

We're onto you, @Joy_Division

;P

Galalin · October 2018

Yeah is this a joke? Class reps are gonna be flamed even more and good luck with a NDA from ppl who are not even paid. Where has common sense gone these days?

Iluvrien · October 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Some people live in their own deluded world.

I don't know what else to say, but those people who think that ZOS is somehow controlling us, muzzling us, or in anyway making it so we represent them rather than the community are misinformed.

Before NDA, ZOS could not tell us anything beyond the immediate next patch, so you didn't hear anything from them and we were incapable of saying anything because we weren't told anything. You weren't getting that sort of info and you couldn't give any feedback on that info because none of us had it. It's not like the NDA is changing anything in that regard.

What is changing is now we will have the ability to preempt questionable changes before they hit the PTS.

Emphasis mine.

I believe that you believe what you have said. However I consider it more likely, based on past ZOS actions, the early feedback will be used as early warning for PR issues rather than something that may be considered as part of the development cycle.

I am also at a loss to find the person representing the non-hardcore side of things. I only ask because I've looked at the posting history of the reps listed in this thread and I all I seem to be able to find is endgame PvE and PvP players... anyone know who it might be?

Zypheran · October 2018

I think this is a very positive step and demonstrates that the class reps must be doing a good job demonstrating themselves as a potential value & resource to ZOS. I don't agree with peoples' issues with the NDA. To me, it is obvious that this will allow the reps to carry our views and interests back to an earlier point in development before things become locked in stone.

Bear in mind that they 'represent' OUR views not ZOS's. An NDA with ZOS wont diminish their ability to collate our views and communicate them to ZOS, it just means that they will have the opportunity to express those views at a stage in process that has more impact.

The only bit I don't agree with is that the reps should be doing this for zero compensation. If you pay a person nothing for their input, then you tend not to put a value on that input! Also, without compensation, these people will eventually reach burnout under the intense vitriol that seems to spew endlessly from the keyboards of "those-who-cannot-be-pleased!"

Mysticman · October 2018

Liofa wrote: »

You guys remember the cast time on shields idea? Now we will be able to say "dude stop" before something similar happens before it actually happens. That's pretty much all this NDA will may or may not provide for class reps.

It was the hard core players complaining about the one second cast time on shields that led to ZOS changing it to a much worse solution of limiting shields to 50% of caster's max health, I'll take a one second cast time over having my shield reduced by 70% anyday. We know these guys are representing their friends who are hard core players but who is representing the casual player or the solo players? Apparently no one.

Lark82 · October 2018

Tasear is not an endgame player afaik.

It doesn't matter anyway because all the reps gather feedback on everything.
As it should be.

Minno · October 2018

Mysticman wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

You guys remember the cast time on shields idea? Now we will be able to say "dude stop" before something similar happens before it actually happens. That's pretty much all this NDA will may or may not provide for class reps.

It was the hard core players complaining about the one second cast time on shields that led to ZOS changing it to a much worse solution of limiting shields to 50% of caster's max health, I'll take a one second cast time over having my shield reduced by 70% anyday. We know these guys are representing their friends who are hard core players but who is representing the casual player or the solo players? Apparently no one.

ZOS had it out for PVE shield users, reps or no reps. The max health change looked like it was intended to punish pve without impacting pvp via cast times something historically zos usually doesn't do. They mainly changed pve at expense of pvp and don't go back on those changes. (IC being changed to be a PVE grindzone, lighting patch to make pve pretty at expense of pvp server performance, enchant-gate {which is being looked into again though}, light attack buffs, speed changes that punish solo/small group pvp, etc.)

Joy said it best, this will give the reps a chance to use the player feedback to voice concern on any changes zos puts in prior to PTS. Key thing to remember is the reps have all this feedback and lists, which they can use to remind zos why X change is terrible before wasting so many hours on adding it.

Avran_Sylt · October 2018

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We’d also like to take this time to talk about some changes we’re making to the program. Effective immediately, all Class Reps have signed a Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) to help facilitate more transparency between them and the development team, and allow us to have a more open dialogue more regularly. This means that they will need to be very selective about what questions of yours they can answer. However, we still want to make sure everyone is aware of what we’re discussing. As mentioned previously, we still plan to publish any meeting notes from voice calls we have, and we’re talking about other ways we can keep everyone in the loop. More on that to come as we nail down the exact details.

... Interesting change.

Not sure about the NDA though, since "However, we still want to make sure everyone is aware of what we're discussing" seems kinda moot at that point. Especially since you want feedback from the community, about things that they're not certain about... Kinda seems like a recipe for a metric ton of miscommunication.

I look forward to seeing how it turns out, but am a bit skeptical about the apparent half-measure in terms of what the community as a whole will be able to see and provide feedback on.

Happy Halloween!

Iluvrien · November 2018

Lark82 wrote: »

Tasear is not an endgame player afaik.

It doesn't matter anyway because all the reps gather feedback on everything.
As it should be.

I think this may not be accurate, otherwise I find it difficult to understand why Tasear would be posting Sorcerer Healer builds for use in Trials and Dungeons or for an endgame Warden Healer build.

Reps may seek to gather feedback on everything, but how gather it, how they respond to what they get, how they select the things to ZOS, and how those things are framed will all depend on their own perspective.

Hardcore players are not the only ones who will notice changes. However, they may well be the ones best able to respond to mitigate them. Without the other side of that coin being explicitly represented I have ongoing concerns.

craftycarper73 · November 2018

Class reps > Puppets on a string.

Miswar · November 2018

First thing would to have your combat team actually playing the game and second good idea would to have an actual Q&A team in place.

As fort his news kind of ironical to me and many when I hear the "ZoS communicating". As record proves that means absolutely nothing.

As for the game... I do hope you have checked your recent login numbers and actual people playing the game. It is in swift decline in PS4 EU (Deservedly so)... and that wohn't be saved by any class representive programs or such.

Considering your upcoming nerfmire ideas and actual live stuff I don't see any point with these Class representative programs whatsoever... good luck running the game into ground.. It is in the horizon!

DanteYoda · November 2018

Until Zos Actually listen to customers outside of their Dev bunkers its all pointless... Convenient to add NDAs for transparency which actually is the opposite and forces even less transparency Because NDAs.....

Unbelievable at this point.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Some people live in their own deluded world.

I don't know what else to say, but those people who think that ZOS is somehow controlling us, muzzling us, or in anyway making it so we represent them rather than the community are misinformed.

Before NDA, ZOS could not tell us anything beyond the immediate next patch, so you didn't hear anything from them and we were incapable of saying anything because we weren't told anything. You weren't getting that sort of info and you couldn't give any feedback on that info because none of us had it. It's not like the NDA is changing anything in that regard.

What is changing is now we will have the ability to preempt questionable changes before they hit the PTS.

Try breaking an NDA and see how you aren't being controlled..

generalmyrick · November 2018

hahaahaaha

this makes me think less of you zos...

appreciate your transparency though.

Xerge · November 2018

This is great news; class reps before this were essentially pointless (no offense meant; you can now do your jobs).

Elsterchen · November 2018

Cinbri wrote: »

No reason of restrict reps with nda, they will break nda anyway and share info with their friends. Already happened before with Morrowind beta, will happen again coz it impossible to track such deed.

Well, I am more worried about the reps function as moderators. Not sure how discussions will keep up, focused and civilized without that.

How do you moderate a discussion about something you actually know to turn out totally different in the end, without slipping a word?

Well, reps keep the good work up and alive.

ol_BANK_lo · November 2018

Liofa wrote: »

You guys remember the cast time on shields idea? Now we will be able to say "dude stop" before something similar happens before it actually happens. That's pretty much all this NDA will may or may not provide for class reps.

Perhaps. Now they can talk freely with you, but now you can't talk freely with us. So, not sure how much that helps.

Biro123 · November 2018

BANK_IT_HERE wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

You guys remember the cast time on shields idea? Now we will be able to say "dude stop" before something similar happens before it actually happens. That's pretty much all this NDA will may or may not provide for class reps.

Perhaps. Now they can talk freely with you, but now you can't talk freely with us. So, not sure how much that helps.

I'm sure they can still talk with us at the same level they could in the past.
Now they will have extra info, and it's only that 'extra' that they can't divulge.