Rapid Maneuvers - Balance before Live

Wise_Will · October 2018

i'd be fine with a reduction in how many people it effects, however the skill itself shouldn't be touched any further. Think of the PvE'rs too.

Qbiken · October 2018

del9 wrote: »

DivineFirstYOLO wrote: »

Some of you people are full of hate towards other playstyles, its shocking. Because small scale got nerfed, you feel like medium groups should be nerfed aswell?
Do you seriously think you will be able to wipe good medium groups after a nerf to maneuver? As a smaller group?

Only undercover zerg surfers and trolls would ask for more nerfs - which one are you?

..and I know at least one ball group on EP NA that will continue to dominate the server even if you nerf the *** out of them. Want to know why? Because they are doing their homework, testing stuff on PTS, theory crafting, etc - unlike some wannabee small scalers that use meta sets on their stam wardens and feel like they are skilled elite players.

This is going to be one of the worst patches, because ZOS is listening to all the whiners on the forums.

Playstyles you say? The current PTS changes may have sealed the DEATH OF AN ENTIRE PLAYSTYLE. Large and “medium scale” will be completely fine after those changes, and would be fine if they brought rapids in line with every other change. I invite you to reconsider what the neutering of soeed pots and self targeted mobility abilities actually means for the solo and small scale playstyle..

To be fair, people say small-scale is dead every new patch......and yet I see more and more small-scale groups (3-6 people) popping up after each update. So pardon me if I have my doubts. But the entire "nerf rapids" sounds more like a demand made because ZOS nerfed something else you enjoyed. There´re rarely any good outcomes out of a If I can´t have it, no one else should have it either attitude when it comes to game balance

Wise_Will · October 2018

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Swift ruined PvP

PvP'ers ruined PvP.

FrancisCrawford · October 2018

Galarthor wrote: »

codestripper wrote: »

Can't tell if serious or troll...

It's being spammed in those groups. Though it rarely lasts the full duration.

However, the fix is simple:
Make its Major Expedition Buff only last a few seconds so it is in line with the other skills. So everybody is in the same boat. However, keep the Major Gallop duration at 30 seconds - nobody is complaining about Speed Buff on the Horse. Besides, lowering the duration for that would mean magicka builds could no longer afford to keep riding speed buff up between keeps.

This is the worst quality-of-life idea I have seen in a LONG time!!!!!!! Crafters commonly travel on foot.

FrancisCrawford · October 2018

Dojohoda wrote: »

The only speed enhancer that needs a reasonable adjustment is the swift jewelry trait. Calling for total sweeping change is just bad. We should argue against sweeping changes.

I thought there was a video showing that the broom is an overpowered weapon.

FrancisCrawford · October 2018

Synapsis123 wrote: »

All they have to do is make the one that removes snares not apply major expedition and the other one can remain the same skill it is now.

That is one change that COULD drive me from the game.

My favorite overland character by far is a fast-sneak stamblade, and he utterly relies on Retreating Maneuvers in its present form.

FearlessOne_2014 · October 2018

I agree with this. This is a PvP skill. Therefore priority should be on PvP balancing with this skill. If small scale is losing sources of major expedition. Large scale should as well in order to find balance.

code65536 · October 2018

Simple fix: If you lose rapids due to engaging in combat, you will have to either leave combat or wait a cooldown period before you can gain rapids again. Something like, say, 6 seconds.

Most surgical solution with minimal side effects, since most people don't immediately recast rapids after losing it to combat engagement--they finish what they entered combat for and then they recast rapids.

Xeniph · October 2018

I do agree this skill needs adjustment now, due to all the ME changes. However it may be difficult since it's a skill that large groups and individuals enjoy.

At this point it may be best to just remove it's group utility while maintain it's usefulness to the individual. Allowing those that can find the room in their build for it to use.

Of coarse groups will holler, but lets face it. PvP groups have been enjoying this skill for quite some time, so much so they often have 2-3 players only role is to spam this.

Whatever is done, it needs to be looked at at the very least.

Feanor · October 2018

Lets just reduce all buffs and debuffs to 2 seconds. Everyone loves to recast, and it also brings pve dps down. Win-win for ZOS!

Joosef_Kivikilpi · October 2018

del9 wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

del9 wrote: »

codestripper wrote: »

Can't tell if serious or troll...

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

I think I’m going to quit after reading OPs point. I’ve lost all hope.

Just about every speed and mobility skill or mechanic in the game has received a nerf, and the developers very clearly cited their motivations and goals for the changes. How would it make any sense that one of the most ubiquitous sources of major expedition also remains untouched?

It only serves to benefit raid-sized groups.

Because it costs 7000 stamina, falls off after any heal or attack, and is commonly used by small groups to get from one place to another.

Rapids can be refreshed between skills. And if a group is large enough, they can afford to have one or two players commit the 7k stam per cast to keep refreshing the buff.

No ‘small group’ that I know of uses rapids while dismounted.

My group and I use this all the time dismounted. And it is our "escape" when we need to book out... *cough cough* why one morph is called "retreating maneuver" haha

Maryal · October 2018

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

del9 wrote: »

codestripper wrote: »

Can't tell if serious or troll...

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

I think I’m going to quit after reading OPs point. I’ve lost all hope.

Just about every speed and mobility skill or mechanic in the game has received a nerf, and the developers very clearly cited their motivations and goals for the changes. How would it make any sense that one of the most ubiquitous sources of major expedition also remains untouched?

It only serves to benefit raid-sized groups.

Because it costs 7000 stamina, falls off after any heal or attack, and is commonly used by small groups to get from one place to another.

It's commonly used by ball-groups in pvp who designate a few players whose only job is to spam this skill at designated locations. This way, as soon as it falls off a fellow-player in combat, it is re-applied.

Reducing the duration won't change it's use in ball groups, they will just designate a few more spammers who will rotate the spams. The better solution would be to limit the AOE range to 4 meters, or reduce the number of people who can receive the AOE buff to 3 or 4.

Rin_Senya · October 2018

Mayrael wrote: »

If you ever seen GOOD BALL GROUP not some potatoes you would see how strong rapids are. Solo player will never afford to slot them and use them in combat, but when you can have a person who will spam it for you on demand... Things are getting crazy then.

So why is it fine to have dedicated roles in PvE but suddenly so "crazy" to do so in a PvP group?

Waffennacht · October 2018

I feel no skill should be balanced around Cyrodiil.

I say delete Cyrodiil and balance around 4v4v4

But maybe that's selfish, but no one else seems to be worried about asking for selfish changes

visionality · October 2018

Dracan_Fontom wrote: »

Rapids have no use in combat. Hardly something worth nerfing.

kojou wrote: »

I'm not sure if I have ecountered one of these Rapid Maneuvers spamming zergs, but I'll take your word for it that they exist.

Every endgame PVP raid has a rapidbot (or two) in their group. Keeping rapid up all the time is the central point of group mobility. Its real function is the de-snaring/snare-immunity though, the speed is just a secondary (and very welcome) effect.

@kojou Whenever you have been run down by a ball group that was not slowed down by caltrops, you were encountering at least one rapid spammer

yodased · October 2018

usmcjdking wrote: »

Nerfing all my reasonable sources of maj exp and not nerfing rapids doesn't encourage me to play in a group.

It encourages me to not play.

Did you really enjoy running around a tree, rock or tower that much?

technohic · October 2018

yodased wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Nerfing all my reasonable sources of maj exp and not nerfing rapids doesn't encourage me to play in a group.

It encourages me to not play.

Did you really enjoy running around a tree, rock or tower that much?

When getting zerged, hell yes. What I enjoyed more is when porting into an inflated keep that still has a ball group running around inside, was being able to exit quickly before getting ran over in their AP farm.

Maryal · October 2018

code65536 wrote: »

Simple fix: If you lose rapids due to engaging in combat, you will have to either leave combat or wait a cooldown period before you can gain rapids again. Something like, say, 6 seconds.

Most surgical solution with minimal side effects, since most people don't immediately recast rapids after losing it to combat engagement--they finish what they entered combat for and then they recast rapids.

Besides the speed buff, it's used in combat because it grants immunity to snares and immobilization (immunity ends if you engage in combat) and casting it removes any snare/immobilization already applied. Your suggestion seems to assume the caster is self-buffing. However, in groups (especially ball-groups) there are people whose only job is to spam this skill. It's an AOE buff and the caster is probably not engaging in combat.

code65536 · October 2018

Maryal wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Simple fix: If you lose rapids due to engaging in combat, you will have to either leave combat or wait a cooldown period before you can gain rapids again. Something like, say, 6 seconds.

Most surgical solution with minimal side effects, since most people don't immediately recast rapids after losing it to combat engagement--they finish what they entered combat for and then they recast rapids.

Besides the speed buff, it's used in combat because it grants immunity to snares and immobilization (immunity ends if you engage in combat) and casting it removes any snare/immobilization already applied. Your suggestion seems to assume the caster is self-buffing. However, in groups (especially ball-groups) there are people whose only job is to spam this skill. It's an AOE buff and the caster is probably not engaging in combat.

Re-read it carefully. I said, "before you can gain rapids again". I did not say, "before you can cast rapids on yourself again".

DHale · October 2018

I stopped coming to the forum for months. So many players ruining this game. Players requesting nerfs and patch after patch zerging more and getting worse and worse at playing. Recently, I took a resource solo and boom I got insta gibbed by a scatter shot four players put up siege to kill me. Now I come to the forum to see people debating rapid maneuvers. Lmao... pathetic.

usmcjdking · October 2018

yodased wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Nerfing all my reasonable sources of maj exp and not nerfing rapids doesn't encourage me to play in a group.

It encourages me to not play.

Did you really enjoy running around a tree, rock or tower that much?

Spamming petrify on single players so they can be gunned down by unhittable snipers would likely result in the very liberal use of LOS around said rocks, trees and towers; fyi.

Haashhtaag · October 2018

TequilaFire wrote: »

Why do you people want to slow things down so much?
Everyone can use rapids so no class, solo or group has advantage.
This game plays like running in peanut butter as it is.

If they’re going to blanket nerf Major expedition then an aoe major exepedition skill that removes snares should be nerfed as welll

Haashhtaag · October 2018

Battlegrounds are garbage

TequilaFire wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

del9 wrote: »

To be clear, I am against the sweepinng mobility nerfs. The reason why I want this adjusted, is because in current states, rapids causes smaller groups and solos to suffer more extemely from the nerfs. @TequilaFire

If i had it my way, none of the mobility nerfs would make it to live.

Cool, and my point is why take away one of the last mobility tools?
I disagree that rapids is not also useful to small groups and solo play.
Small group play is disadvantaged by design in ESO and my hats off to those that pull it off but the good ones know what they are up against and adjust.

Large groups are already kings of the Cyro battlefield.

It's a complete and unnecessary mechanical advantage being given to groups with a dedicated rapids spammer. The uphill fight to kill PVP guild raids will simply get steeper, which is ridiculous given the absolutely destructive nature they have on the game's performance.

Players that like small scale and those that like large scale fight will never see eye to eye that is certain.
And large groups didn't use to have such a large impact on the game performance, that is something that came about when ZOS let most of the original devs go. I mean the devs that worked on the game engine level. Battlegrounds should be and would be small scale salvation if they gave up on the 4x4x4 format and went 8v8 or some similar number.

Maryal · October 2018

code65536 wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Simple fix: If you lose rapids due to engaging in combat, you will have to either leave combat or wait a cooldown period before you can gain rapids again. Something like, say, 6 seconds.

Most surgical solution with minimal side effects, since most people don't immediately recast rapids after losing it to combat engagement--they finish what they entered combat for and then they recast rapids.

Besides the speed buff, it's used in combat because it grants immunity to snares and immobilization (immunity ends if you engage in combat) and casting it removes any snare/immobilization already applied. Your suggestion seems to assume the caster is self-buffing. However, in groups (especially ball-groups) there are people whose only job is to spam this skill. It's an AOE buff and the caster is probably not engaging in combat.

Re-read it carefully. I said, "before you can gain rapids again". I did not say, "before you can cast rapids on yourself again".

I did read it. You said: "...since most people don't immediately recast rapids after losing it to combat engagement ..." gave the impression that you were talking about it as a self cast buff.

Haashhtaag · October 2018

TequilaFire wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Nerfing this skill wouldn't hurt my feelings.

I'd be fine with it too, depending on what would be done. If Expedition is what's being targeted though, it just seems weird to overlook it, and lopsided towards groups that have specific support players providing it. I wouldn't want the snare removal removed, and a duration nerf doesn't really make any sense either because the way it's used isn't for it's current duration.

I would be fine if it only applied to each player instead of the group but that will hurt small groups who do use it.
My builds have no problem with sustain.

Small groups don’t use rapids unless out of combat to go to wherever they want to go on their mounts and farm AP

TequilaFire · October 2018

Haashhtaag wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Nerfing this skill wouldn't hurt my feelings.

I'd be fine with it too, depending on what would be done. If Expedition is what's being targeted though, it just seems weird to overlook it, and lopsided towards groups that have specific support players providing it. I wouldn't want the snare removal removed, and a duration nerf doesn't really make any sense either because the way it's used isn't for it's current duration.

I would be fine if it only applied to each player instead of the group but that will hurt small groups who do use it.
My builds have no problem with sustain.

Small groups don’t use rapids unless out of combat to go to wherever they want to go on their mounts and farm AP

How can you speak for all small groups?
I use it when in a small group going through a choke point.

kojou · October 2018

visionality wrote: »

Dracan_Fontom wrote: »

Rapids have no use in combat. Hardly something worth nerfing.

kojou wrote: »

I'm not sure if I have ecountered one of these Rapid Maneuvers spamming zergs, but I'll take your word for it that they exist.

Every endgame PVP raid has a rapidbot (or two) in their group. Keeping rapid up all the time is the central point of group mobility. Its real function is the de-snaring/snare-immunity though, the speed is just a secondary (and very welcome) effect.

@kojou Whenever you have been run down by a ball group that was not slowed down by caltrops, you were encountering at least one rapid spammer

I've been run down by lots of ball groups... They also had heal spamming, AoE damage spamming, and buff spamming. Those crazy guys had people that specialized in all kinds of spamming. It almost like having superior numbers gave them a tactical advantage.

del9 · October 2018

DHale wrote: »

I stopped coming to the forum for months. So many players ruining this game. Players requesting nerfs and patch after patch zerging more and getting worse and worse at playing. Recently, I took a resource solo and boom I got insta gibbed by a scatter shot four players put up siege to kill me. Now I come to the forum to see people debating rapid maneuvers. Lmao... pathetic.

Since you haven’t been to the forums, I can see how you would think this is random. But if you check the PTS they have nerfed expedition and snare removal across the board- save for Rapid Maneuver. This really makes perfect sense given the Dev’s goal. If Rapids is left alone, groups too small to keep rapids on high uptime will be put at an extreme disadvantage.

16/18 players ina raid will have to expend zero resources or skill slots to keep up immunity and ME. How is it pathetic to ask for fairness? Take a closer look at the changes and tell me again this is a silly thread.

Chilly-McFreeze · October 2018

kojou wrote: »

visionality wrote: »

Dracan_Fontom wrote: »

Rapids have no use in combat. Hardly something worth nerfing.

kojou wrote: »

I'm not sure if I have ecountered one of these Rapid Maneuvers spamming zergs, but I'll take your word for it that they exist.

Every endgame PVP raid has a rapidbot (or two) in their group. Keeping rapid up all the time is the central point of group mobility. Its real function is the de-snaring/snare-immunity though, the speed is just a secondary (and very welcome) effect.

@kojou Whenever you have been run down by a ball group that was not slowed down by caltrops, you were encountering at least one rapid spammer

I've been run down by lots of ball groups... They also had heal spamming, AoE damage spamming, and buff spamming. Those crazy guys had people that specialized in all kinds of spamming. It almost like having superior numbers gave them a tactical advantage.

And you agree on the necessarity to widen the gap even more?

Sandman929 · October 2018

kojou wrote: »

visionality wrote: »

Dracan_Fontom wrote: »

Rapids have no use in combat. Hardly something worth nerfing.

kojou wrote: »

I'm not sure if I have ecountered one of these Rapid Maneuvers spamming zergs, but I'll take your word for it that they exist.

Every endgame PVP raid has a rapidbot (or two) in their group. Keeping rapid up all the time is the central point of group mobility. Its real function is the de-snaring/snare-immunity though, the speed is just a secondary (and very welcome) effect.

@kojou Whenever you have been run down by a ball group that was not slowed down by caltrops, you were encountering at least one rapid spammer

I've been run down by lots of ball groups... They also had heal spamming, AoE damage spamming, and buff spamming. Those crazy guys had people that specialized in all kinds of spamming. It almost like having superior numbers gave them a tactical advantage.

It's also almost like dedicated roles and group coordination is useful in fights. It's almost like that.