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Rapid Maneuvers - Balance before Live
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TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭To be clear, I am against the sweepinng mobility nerfs. The reason why I want this adjusted, is because in current states, rapids causes smaller groups and solos to suffer more extemely from the nerfs. @TequilaFire
If i had it my way, none of the mobility nerfs would make it to live.usmcjdking wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »Cool, and my point is why take away one of the last mobility tools?
I disagree that rapids is not also useful to small groups and solo play.
Small group play is disadvantaged by design in ESO and my hats off to those that pull it off but the good ones know what they are up against and adjust.
Is that an honest question, or rhetorical?
Fixed the punctuation. lol
I like small group play but have less sympathy for 1vX players who are like PvE players soloing a trial boss getting things nerfed because it ticks off the devs.Edited by TequilaFire on October 8, 2018 7:48PM1 -
kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »A nerf to Rapid would basically be a buff to snares and ground DoTs that snare and give keep defenses even more ability for entry denial.
The question should be around whether keeps are too hard or too easy to take right now since IMO Rapid is designed to be an invasion tool.
Currently I think keep defense is a bit too strong at the moment, but we will see what the Scatter Shot nerf does when it goes live.
I could be wrong, but I think most people who want this nerfed are salty about their mobility getting nerfed...
How is a skill entitled "Retreating Maneuvers" designated as an invasion tool?
Semantics... They had to come up with a name for it. It just ended up being the preferred morph because of the snare removal.
I suppose it would be semantics if there wasn't a skill called "Charging Maneuver".
My point is that you are using semantics as an argument and it is irrelevant.
I can't help it if the morph called Charging Maneuver is the inferior morph...
There are no semantics in my argument. Retreating Maneuvers is a skill that is not designed to be spammed, hence the ridiculous cost and the restrictions on maintaining the ME/Immunity.
The simple fact that you can bypass the very clear drawbacks of Retreating Maneuvers by repeatedly spamming it is not semantics.
If that was your point then why didn't you reply with it instead of a comment about the name? It would have led to a more interesting debate...
If that is the issue then it could easily be given a cost increase if it is spammed similarly to how bolt escape is.
I'm not sure if I have ecountered one of these Rapid Maneuvers spamming zergs, but I'll take your word for it that they exist.Playing since beta...0 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »To be clear, I am against the sweepinng mobility nerfs. The reason why I want this adjusted, is because in current states, rapids causes smaller groups and solos to suffer more extemely from the nerfs. @TequilaFire
If i had it my way, none of the mobility nerfs would make it to live.
Cool, and my point is why take away one of the last mobility tools?
I disagree that rapids is not also useful to small groups and solo play.
Small group play is disadvantaged by design in ESO and my hats off to those that pull it off but the good ones know what they are up against and adjust.
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usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »To be clear, I am against the sweepinng mobility nerfs. The reason why I want this adjusted, is because in current states, rapids causes smaller groups and solos to suffer more extemely from the nerfs. @TequilaFire
If i had it my way, none of the mobility nerfs would make it to live.
Cool, and my point is why take away one of the last mobility tools?
I disagree that rapids is not also useful to small groups and solo play.
Small group play is disadvantaged by design in ESO and my hats off to those that pull it off but the good ones know what they are up against and adjust.
Large groups are already kings of the Cyro battlefield.
It's a complete and unnecessary mechanical advantage being given to groups with a dedicated rapids spammer. The uphill fight to kill PVP guild raids will simply get steeper, which is ridiculous given the absolutely destructive nature they have on the game's performance.0331
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TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »To be clear, I am against the sweepinng mobility nerfs. The reason why I want this adjusted, is because in current states, rapids causes smaller groups and solos to suffer more extemely from the nerfs. @TequilaFire
If i had it my way, none of the mobility nerfs would make it to live.
Cool, and my point is why take away one of the last mobility tools?
I disagree that rapids is not also useful to small groups and solo play.
Small group play is disadvantaged by design in ESO and my hats off to those that pull it off but the good ones know what they are up against and adjust.
Large groups are already kings of the Cyro battlefield.
It's a complete and unnecessary mechanical advantage being given to groups with a dedicated rapids spammer. The uphill fight to kill PVP guild raids will simply get steeper, which is ridiculous given the absolutely destructive nature they have on the game's performance.
Players that like small scale and those that like large scale fight will never see eye to eye that is certain.
And large groups didn't use to have such a large impact on the game performance, that is something that came about when ZOS let most of the original devs go. I mean the devs that worked on the game engine level. Battlegrounds should be and would be small scale salvation if they gave up on the 4x4x4 format and went 8v8 or some similar number.Edited by TequilaFire on October 8, 2018 8:08PM0 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »To be clear, I am against the sweepinng mobility nerfs. The reason why I want this adjusted, is because in current states, rapids causes smaller groups and solos to suffer more extemely from the nerfs. @TequilaFire
If i had it my way, none of the mobility nerfs would make it to live.
Cool, and my point is why take away one of the last mobility tools?
I disagree that rapids is not also useful to small groups and solo play.
Small group play is disadvantaged by design in ESO and my hats off to those that pull it off but the good ones know what they are up against and adjust.
Large groups are already kings of the Cyro battlefield.
It's a complete and unnecessary mechanical advantage being given to groups with a dedicated rapids spammer. The uphill fight to kill PVP guild raids will simply get steeper, which is ridiculous given the absolutely destructive nature they have on the game's performance.
Players that like small scale and those that like large scale fight will never see eye to eye that is certain.
And large groups didn't use to have such a large impact on the game performance, that is something that came about when ZOS let most of the original devs go. I mean the devs that worked on the game engine level. Battlegrounds should be and would be small scale salvation if they gave up on the 4x4x4 format and went 8v8 or some similar number.
So how far into the rabbit hole are you going to keep going in order to not just outright admit that the repeated spamming and application of Retreating Maneuvers to 23 people in light of all the other Major Expedition/Snare Removal & immunity destruction is simply not mechanically balanced?Edited by usmcjdking on October 8, 2018 8:12PM0331
06027 -
Tyrobag✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'm completely blown away that anyone could possibly think this is a good idea. Do you really love the horse riding simulator that much? It is an ability that literally cannot be used for an advantage in combat and is easily obtainable by anyone, and you think it needs to be nerfed... Did someone get to a chest before you or something?3 -
Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm completely blown away that anyone could possibly think this is a good idea. Do you really love the horse riding simulator that much? It is an ability that literally cannot be used for an advantage in combat and is easily obtainable by anyone, and you think it needs to be nerfed... Did someone get to a chest before you or something?
I'm a little surprised anyone thinks Rapids aren't used in combat.9 -
del9✭✭✭✭I'm completely blown away that anyone could possibly think this is a good idea. Do you really love the horse riding simulator that much? It is an ability that literally cannot be used for an advantage in combat and is easily obtainable by anyone, and you think it needs to be nerfed... Did someone get to a chest before you or something?
I said nothing about nerfing major gallop. My suggestion is that the skill’s buffs effect fewer allies per cast. In order to mount, one must be out of combat, which means anyone can slot and cast the skill on themselves without any detriment.
The target of this suggestion is to bring the major expedition uptime from the skill in line with all of the other changes made during this pts cycle.PCNA0 -
ruikkarikun✭✭✭✭✭17 Agrees at start post. I mean guys, this is the end. No point to stay at game, because someone will create any topic about any nerf and trolls will click a few hundreds "agree" ??? - PROFIT!
Good luck.
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Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nerfing this skill wouldn't hurt my feelings.
I'd be fine with it too, depending on what would be done. If Expedition is what's being targeted though, it just seems weird to overlook it, and lopsided towards groups that have specific support players providing it. I wouldn't want the snare removal removed, and a duration nerf doesn't really make any sense either because the way it's used isn't for it's current duration.1 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »To be clear, I am against the sweepinng mobility nerfs. The reason why I want this adjusted, is because in current states, rapids causes smaller groups and solos to suffer more extemely from the nerfs. @TequilaFire
If i had it my way, none of the mobility nerfs would make it to live.
Cool, and my point is why take away one of the last mobility tools?
I disagree that rapids is not also useful to small groups and solo play.
Small group play is disadvantaged by design in ESO and my hats off to those that pull it off but the good ones know what they are up against and adjust.
Large groups are already kings of the Cyro battlefield.
It's a complete and unnecessary mechanical advantage being given to groups with a dedicated rapids spammer. The uphill fight to kill PVP guild raids will simply get steeper, which is ridiculous given the absolutely destructive nature they have on the game's performance.
Players that like small scale and those that like large scale fight will never see eye to eye that is certain.
And large groups didn't use to have such a large impact on the game performance, that is something that came about when ZOS let most of the original devs go. I mean the devs that worked on the game engine level. Battlegrounds should be and would be small scale salvation if they gave up on the 4x4x4 format and went 8v8 or some similar number.
So how far into the rabbit hole are you going to keep going in order to not just outright admit that the repeated spamming and application of Retreating Maneuvers to 23 people in light of all the other Major Expedition/Snare Removal & immunity destruction is simply not mechanically balanced?
I don't admit it because it isn't so as it has been in the game since the beginning without complaint.
Major Expedition wasn't a problem either. Swift was introduced and screwed the pooch.
Regardless of what happens a large group is still going to run you down this game wasn't built for Rambos.Edited by TequilaFire on October 8, 2018 8:44PM2 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sandman929 wrote: »Nerfing this skill wouldn't hurt my feelings.
I'd be fine with it too, depending on what would be done. If Expedition is what's being targeted though, it just seems weird to overlook it, and lopsided towards groups that have specific support players providing it. I wouldn't want the snare removal removed, and a duration nerf doesn't really make any sense either because the way it's used isn't for it's current duration.
I would be fine if it only applied to each player instead of the group but that will hurt small groups who do use it.
My builds have no problem with sustain.0 -
Teeba_Shei✭✭✭✭✭
✭Large ball groups are what cause the lag anyway. It is fine that players want to play in 24 man groups, but the optimal way to play shouldn't be to stack up really tight, spam abilities, and cause the server to lag.Edited by Teeba_Shei on October 8, 2018 8:44PM2 -
BrightOblivion✭✭✭✭✭Honestly, I'm getting really tired of them trying to slow down the game. This "Major Expedition buff ends before you even realized 'Yay, I'm fast'" thing they're doing is not fun. It's not enjoyable. It's not even worthwhile.
Totally outside of Cyrodiil, where I haven't even seen this used outside of Horse Simulator, I use both parts of the ability (Expedition and Gallop) to get around Overland at more than the customary crawl I'm reduced to on a mag toon. I use either part of the ability in the first parts of AA and HRC, to get through the frozen room and that useless HRC ride respectively, and for HoF to get through the hallways with the lightning beams and spinning blades. Everyone in a 12 man trial having to slot their own rapids for that is tedious, unfun, and not something I agree with in the slightest. Particularly not for 7k of my 10k "I'm a magtoon" stam bar.3 -
Teeba_Shei✭✭✭✭✭
✭All they have to do is make the one that removes snares not apply major expedition and the other one can remain the same skill it is now. Although this might just make groups run 2 people with the different morphs to retain snare removal and major expedition.Edited by Teeba_Shei on October 8, 2018 8:56PM1 -
del9✭✭✭✭BrightOblivion wrote: »Honestly, I'm getting really tired of them trying to slow down the game. This "Major Expedition buff ends before you even realized 'Yay, I'm fast'" thing they're doing is not fun. It's not enjoyable. It's not even worthwhile.
Totally outside of Cyrodiil, where I haven't even seen this used outside of Horse Simulator, I use both parts of the ability (Expedition and Gallop) to get around Overland at more than the customary crawl I'm reduced to on a mag toon. I use either part of the ability in the first parts of AA and HRC, to get through the frozen room and that useless HRC ride respectively, and for HoF to get through the hallways with the lightning beams and spinning blades. Everyone in a 12 man trial having to slot their own rapids for that is tedious, unfun, and not something I agree with in the slightest. Particularly not for 7k of my 10k "I'm a magtoon" stam bar.
Thanks for the feedback Oblivion. Like you, I am also very distressed about them slowing down the game. As a primary PVPer, what I am trying to do with this post is actually mitigate the toll that the speed/mobility nerfs will have on any pvper who is not in a very large group with dedicated roles for spamming roles. Every self-targeted speed and anti-snare buff has been halved or worse. Yet the main group buffing source hasn’t been touched. Relative speed in PVP is what I hope will be smoothed out.
I ask you this- in most trial situations, are rapids being cast inbetween encounters? If they are, then feasibly every raid member shoukd be able to slot, cast, and unslot the skill and still have their 30s of exped. My proposed changes would not prevent that happening.
And if rapids are remaining on the bar and being cast DURING pve encounters, can you or anyone else think of a creative way to adjust the skill so that PVE can retain its pace without unfairly punishing the self-targeted sources of mobility? Especially in pvpPCNA2 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Synapsis123 wrote: »Not sure if a lot of the posters in here are serious. Rapids only gets removed on the first attack or heal you use on other people. You can heal yourself or shield while rapids is on. The point of rapids spam is to constantly have 100% snare removal and keep everyone moving at 30% movement speed. Even if it gets removed on the first attack or heal it allows ball groups to move around while being incredible hard to CC or lock down at all.
Watch a strong guild group and they always have 1 or 2 people spamming rapids because it is just that strong.
Just this. If you ever seen GOOD BALL GROUP not some potatoes you would see how strong rapids are. Solo player will never afford to slot them and use them in combat, but when you can have a person who will spam it for you on demand... Things are getting crazy then.
Situations when rapids are used.
1. Ball group wants to move fast through choke point, to kite a bit or whatever. Order is to not attack, healers taking a look on group members hp, when needed heal up and rapids up again.
2. To chase someone down. Whole group rushes after their target. You cover some distance and use root/snare. Then spamer use rapids again, so the whole group covers even more distance and can kill escaping player.
The thing is, ball groups shouldn't be treated better than others.
The best solution is to limit targets affected by this skill, because if we will just reduce time ball group spamers will still be able to keep up Major Expedition all the time. Next we should reduce major expedition time and costs of the skill accordingly while leaving major gallop untouched.Edited by Mayrael on October 8, 2018 9:08PMI'm done with this game because of ZOS pushing us into Vengeance, because they don't know how to fix Cyrodiil.9 -
del9✭✭✭✭Synapsis123 wrote: »Not sure if a lot of the posters in here are serious. Rapids only gets removed on the first attack or heal you use on other people. You can heal yourself or shield while rapids is on. The point of rapids spam is to constantly have 100% snare removal and keep everyone moving at 30% movement speed. Even if it gets removed on the first attack or heal it allows ball groups to move around while being incredible hard to CC or lock down at all.
Watch a strong guild group and they always have 1 or 2 people spamming rapids because it is just that strong.
Just this. If you ever seen GOOD BALL GROUP not some potatoes you would see how strong rapids are. Solo player will never afford to slot them and use them in combat, but when you can have a person who will spam it for you on demand... Things are getting crazy then.
Situations when rapids are used.
1. Ball group wants to move fast through choke point, to kite a bit or whatever. Order is to not attack, healers taking a look on group members hp, when needed heal up and rapids up again.
2. To chase someone down. Whole group rushes after their target. You cover some distance and use root/snare. Then spamer use rapids again, so the whole group covers even more distance and can kill escaping player.
The best solution is to limit targets affected by this skill, because if we will just reduce time. Ball group spamers will still be able to keep up Major Expedition all the time. Next we should reduce major expedition time and costs of the skill accordingly while leaving major gallop untouched.
You get it! Thanks for detailing the scenarios that are the problem with the skill, especially with the death of speed pots and everything else.PCNA1 -
Teeba_Shei✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is actually an addon that shows which group members have rapids and which don't because it is so strong in groups.3 -
Kanar✭✭✭✭✭
✭WreckfulAbandon wrote: »Swift ruined PvP
QFE. If swift was never introduced, we would not be having a round of complete mobility nerfs right now.4 -
DivineFirstYOLO✭✭✭✭Some of you people are full of hate towards other playstyles, its shocking. Because small scale got nerfed, you feel like medium groups should be nerfed aswell?
Do you seriously think you will be able to wipe good medium groups after a nerf to maneuver? As a smaller group?
Only undercover zerg surfers and trolls would ask for more nerfs - which one are you?
..and I know at least one ball group on EP NA that will continue to dominate the server even if you nerf the *** out of them. Want to know why? Because they are doing their homework, testing stuff on PTS, theory crafting, etc - unlike some wannabee small scalers that use meta sets on their stam wardens and feel like they are skilled elite players.
This is going to be one of the worst patches, because ZOS is listening to all the whiners on the forums.
Zerg Squad
Godslayer x 4
Pro questing fees for RPers in Cyrodiil, pay your taxes!
PC - EU13 -
del9✭✭✭✭DivineFirstYOLO wrote: »Some of you people are full of hate towards other playstyles, its shocking. Because small scale got nerfed, you feel like medium groups should be nerfed aswell?
Do you seriously think you will be able to wipe good medium groups after a nerf to maneuver? As a smaller group?
Only undercover zerg surfers and trolls would ask for more nerfs - which one are you?
..and I know at least one ball group on EP NA that will continue to dominate the server even if you nerf the *** out of them. Want to know why? Because they are doing their homework, testing stuff on PTS, theory crafting, etc - unlike some wannabee small scalers that use meta sets on their stam wardens and feel like they are skilled elite players.
This is going to be one of the worst patches, because ZOS is listening to all the whiners on the forums.
Playstyles you say? The current PTS changes may have sealed the DEATH OF AN ENTIRE PLAYSTYLE. Large and “medium scale” will be completely fine after those changes, and would be fine if they brought rapids in line with every other change. I invite you to reconsider what the neutering of soeed pots and self targeted mobility abilities actually means for the solo and small scale playstyle..PCNA2 -
SenorCrouch✭✭✭Hi PvPers! A PvEer here, giving my two cents. If we are discussing Rapids changes can it please involve a way that doesn't affect how it currently works in non-Cyrodiil and Battlefield zones. Cause as much as you all would love to see it get nerfed to a 6 second duration, it would be rather annoying for us in PvE. K, thx.Edited by SenorCrouch on October 8, 2018 9:57PM"What's the cross roads of Alessia Castle? I am trying to get pizza delivered."3 -
del9✭✭✭✭SenorCrouch wrote: »Hi PvPers! A PvEer here, giving my two cents. If we are discussing Rapids change can it please involve a way that doesn't affect how it currently works in non-Cyrodiil and Battlefield zones. Cause as much as you all would love to see it get nerfed to a 6 second duration, it would be rather annoying for us in PvE. K, thx.
A hit to duration wouldn’t help our situation much. Most of us in favor of change are in agreement that the number of allies effected per cast should be lowered.
PCNA0 -
Sanct16✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Simple fix:
Reduce the duration of Maneuver to 2 seconds, down from 32.- EU - Raid Leader of Banana Zerg Squad
AD | AR 50 | Sanct Fir'eheal | ex Mana DK @31.10.2015
EP | AR 50 | Sanctosaurus | Mana NB
AD | AR 44 | rekt ya | Mana NB
AD | AR 41 | Sanct Thunderstorm | Mana Sorc
EP | AR 36 | S'na'ct | Mana NB {NA}
AD | AR 29 | Captain Full Fist| Stam DK
AD | AR 29 | Sanct The Dark Phoenix| Stam Sorc
EP | AR 16 | Horny Sanct | Stam Warden
EP | AR 16 | Sánct Bánáná Sláyér | Mana DK
DC | AR 13 | ad worst faction eu | Stam Sorc
DC | AR 13 | Lagendary Sanct | Mana NB
>320.000.000 AP8 -
SenorCrouch✭✭✭SenorCrouch wrote: »Hi PvPers! A PvEer here, giving my two cents. If we are discussing Rapids change can it please involve a way that doesn't affect how it currently works in non-Cyrodiil and Battlefield zones. Cause as much as you all would love to see it get nerfed to a 6 second duration, it would be rather annoying for us in PvE. K, thx.
A hit to duration wouldn’t help our situation much. Most of us in favor of change are in agreement that the number of allies effected per cast should be lowered.
I am just scared is all. ZoS seems to regurgitating nerfs left and right. I am just worried when the retching will stop. I don't want ZoS to suddenly get the bright idea that reducing the duration of Major Expedition is some how a great idea.Edited by SenorCrouch on October 8, 2018 10:07PM"What's the cross roads of Alessia Castle? I am trying to get pizza delivered."1 -
DeadlyRecluse✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭A cost reduction and having it only hit a certain number of players would be a good start towards making it useful for more players while making it less of a constant utility for large/"ball" groups.
It is a curious thing to overlook--movement is being toned down across the board for solo and most small groups, who usually rely on the newly shortened sources of major expedition, while large groups, who largely depend on rapid maneuvers, get off unscathed...Thrice Empress, Forever Scrub6 -
Thogard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well said by OP.
It is clear to me that some of the people critiquing Del’s posts have never actually tried with 8 people to fight against a ball group of 16.PC NA - @dazkt - Dazk Ardoonkt / Sir Thogalot / Dask Dragoh’t / Dazk Dragoh’t / El Thogardo
Stream: twitch.tv/THOGARDvsThePeasants
YouTube: http://youtube.com/c/thogardpvp4
