Maintenance for the week of April 6:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 6
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 6
Rapid Maneuvers - Balance before Live
-
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sandman929 wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »codestripper wrote: »Can't tell if serious or troll...Wolf_Watching wrote: »I think I’m going to quit after reading OPs point. I’ve lost all hope.
Just about every speed and mobility skill or mechanic in the game has received a nerf, and the developers very clearly cited their motivations and goals for the changes. How would it make any sense that one of the most ubiquitous sources of major expedition also remains untouched?
It only serves to benefit raid-sized groups.
I benefits everyone and is removed on your first attack.
If it's so weak then why do you have a person dedicated whose job it is to spam it? Where's the blood altar spammer?
Talk about a straw man argument. smh
There's absolutely no straw man argument. The argument is simple.
If the skill is so inherently weak then why is there a person dedicated to spamming it? Blood altar is weak, and IIRC most raids don't have someone perpetually spamming blood alter, or using high regen sets to support the spamming of a single skill.
The answer is that you have no argument in defending Retreating Maneuvers. The skill is indefensible.
What ever you say dude even if you are wrong.
You haven't added anything to counter the very simple argument that you have a dedicated rapids spammer (if not two) in large organized raids to provide exceptionally high uptimes of Major Expedition and Root/Snare immunity to up to 22/23 other people at no investment cost to the 22/23 others. And whilst every other source available for both of these buffs has been put into the trashcan, Retreating Maneuvers has not been.
I cannot help you if you do not see the obvious irony in being run down by 24 people when they use a skill called "retreating maneuvers".
It doesn't work that way as Rapids only gets applied to those in the group near you and rarely are that many people that close.
Usually when riding across Cyro we have to have someone with rapids on point and at the rear for those that don't slot it themselves.
Counter Point - Why do large groups have dedicated CC spammers?
That's changing the subject though. I don't think ZOS is looking at CC's specifically, they are however looking at sources of Expedition.
No it is exactly why a group would run retreating maneuvers to help counter CC spam while getting through a choke point.
All sources of expedition didn't need nerfed in the first place.Edited by TequilaFire on October 8, 2018 7:00PM1 -
Dracan_Fontom✭✭✭✭✭Rapids have no use in combat. Hardly something worth nerfing.
P.S. have you used Blood Altar? It's not that bad actually.4 -
Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »codestripper wrote: »Can't tell if serious or troll...Wolf_Watching wrote: »I think I’m going to quit after reading OPs point. I’ve lost all hope.
Just about every speed and mobility skill or mechanic in the game has received a nerf, and the developers very clearly cited their motivations and goals for the changes. How would it make any sense that one of the most ubiquitous sources of major expedition also remains untouched?
It only serves to benefit raid-sized groups.
I benefits everyone and is removed on your first attack.
If it's so weak then why do you have a person dedicated whose job it is to spam it? Where's the blood altar spammer?
Talk about a straw man argument. smh
There's absolutely no straw man argument. The argument is simple.
If the skill is so inherently weak then why is there a person dedicated to spamming it? Blood altar is weak, and IIRC most raids don't have someone perpetually spamming blood alter, or using high regen sets to support the spamming of a single skill.
The answer is that you have no argument in defending Retreating Maneuvers. The skill is indefensible.
What ever you say dude even if you are wrong.
You haven't added anything to counter the very simple argument that you have a dedicated rapids spammer (if not two) in large organized raids to provide exceptionally high uptimes of Major Expedition and Root/Snare immunity to up to 22/23 other people at no investment cost to the 22/23 others. And whilst every other source available for both of these buffs has been put into the trashcan, Retreating Maneuvers has not been.
I cannot help you if you do not see the obvious irony in being run down by 24 people when they use a skill called "retreating maneuvers".
It doesn't work that way as Rapids only gets applied to those in the group near you and rarely are that many people that close.
Usually when riding across Cyro we have to have someone with rapids on point and at the rear for those that don't slot it themselves.
Counter Point - Why do large groups have dedicated CC spammers?
That's changing the subject though. I don't think ZOS is looking at CC's specifically, they are however looking at sources of Expedition.
No it is exactly why a group would run retreating maneuvers to help counter CC spam while getting through a choke point.
I don't think the snare or root removal should be looked at for the skill. That's not the subject. If Expedition is getting looked at by ZOS, the Expedition of the skill should be the concern.5 -
Aztlan✭✭✭✭Nonsense. Keeping this skill as is encourages organized group play, which is a good thing.4 -
eso_nya✭✭✭✭✭
✭Devs should apply every asked for nerf to only the account of the player asking for it.12 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Why do you people want to slow things down so much?
Everyone can use rapids so no class, solo or group has advantage.
This game plays like running in peanut butter as it is.
8 -
Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nonsense. Keeping this skill as is encourages organized group play, which is a good thing.
I'd agree with that too. I just think for consistency it's an oversight to not address how Rapids is used in groups. I'm perfectly happy to keep it as is.
But, all that being said, if you take Rapids away from an organized group, you're still not hurting them all that much and they'll adapt.2 -
casparian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Nonsense. Keeping this skill as is encourages organized group play, which is a good thing.
Organized group play is good. It's part of what Cyrodiil is for.
Solo and organized small group play are also good. In order for those play styles to remain viable in Cyrodiil, they need to be able to have mobility equal to or greater than larger groups. After the mobility changes that is no longer possible, as Rapids spam is an exclusively large group phenomenon.
I don't want a Rapids nerf, but it's necessary now that there is no effective counter to being chased by a larger group spamming roots and snares on you.7-day PVP campaign regular 2016-2019, Flawless Conqueror. MagDK/stamplar/stamwarden/mageblade. Requiem, Legend, Knights of Daggerfall. Currently retired from the wars; waiting on performance improvements.7 -
dagonbeer✭✭✭Probably have to keep the console folks in mind when discussing rapids. On the PC it's easy to skill swap when travelling long distances, not so with console players. It's a huge QoL factor.
(I'm on PC, just looking out.)4 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Nerfing all my reasonable sources of maj exp and not nerfing rapids doesn't encourage me to play in a group.
It encourages me to not play.0331
060214 -
kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭A nerf to Rapid would basically be a buff to snares and ground DoTs that snare and give keep defenses even more ability for entry denial.
The question should be around whether keeps are too hard or too easy to take right now since IMO Rapid is designed to be an invasion tool.
Currently I think keep defense is a bit too strong at the moment, but we will see what the Scatter Shot nerf does when it goes live.
I could be wrong, but I think most people who want this nerfed are salty about their mobility getting nerfed...Playing since beta...5 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I use rapids solo and when I run in a 4 to 5 man group, don't get this large group exclusive claim.4 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭A nerf to Rapid would basically be a buff to snares and ground DoTs that snare and give keep defenses even more ability for entry denial.
The question should be around whether keeps are too hard or too easy to take right now since IMO Rapid is designed to be an invasion tool.
Currently I think keep defense is a bit too strong at the moment, but we will see what the Scatter Shot nerf does when it goes live.
I could be wrong, but I think most people who want this nerfed are salty about their mobility getting nerfed...
How is a skill entitled "Retreating Maneuvers" designated as an invasion tool?0331
06023 -
kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »A nerf to Rapid would basically be a buff to snares and ground DoTs that snare and give keep defenses even more ability for entry denial.
The question should be around whether keeps are too hard or too easy to take right now since IMO Rapid is designed to be an invasion tool.
Currently I think keep defense is a bit too strong at the moment, but we will see what the Scatter Shot nerf does when it goes live.
I could be wrong, but I think most people who want this nerfed are salty about their mobility getting nerfed...
How is a skill entitled "Retreating Maneuvers" designated as an invasion tool?
Semantics... They had to come up with a name for it. It just ended up being the preferred morph because of the snare removal.Playing since beta...2 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I agree with the OP. if I can only have 4 seconds of FM while running from a ball group, why should they have permanent uptime.5 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »A nerf to Rapid would basically be a buff to snares and ground DoTs that snare and give keep defenses even more ability for entry denial.
The question should be around whether keeps are too hard or too easy to take right now since IMO Rapid is designed to be an invasion tool.
Currently I think keep defense is a bit too strong at the moment, but we will see what the Scatter Shot nerf does when it goes live.
I could be wrong, but I think most people who want this nerfed are salty about their mobility getting nerfed...
How is a skill entitled "Retreating Maneuvers" designated as an invasion tool?
Semantics... They had to come up with a name for it. It just ended up being the preferred morph because of the snare removal.
I suppose it would be semantics if there wasn't a skill called "Charging Maneuver".Edited by usmcjdking on October 8, 2018 7:16PM0331
06022 -
kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »A nerf to Rapid would basically be a buff to snares and ground DoTs that snare and give keep defenses even more ability for entry denial.
The question should be around whether keeps are too hard or too easy to take right now since IMO Rapid is designed to be an invasion tool.
Currently I think keep defense is a bit too strong at the moment, but we will see what the Scatter Shot nerf does when it goes live.
I could be wrong, but I think most people who want this nerfed are salty about their mobility getting nerfed...
How is a skill entitled "Retreating Maneuvers" designated as an invasion tool?
Semantics... They had to come up with a name for it. It just ended up being the preferred morph because of the snare removal.
I suppose it would be semantics if there wasn't a skill called "Charging Maneuver".
My point is that you are using semantics as an argument and it is irrelevant.
I can't help it if the morph called Charging Maneuver is the inferior morph...Playing since beta...2 -
Dojohoda✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The only speed enhancer that needs a reasonable adjustment is the swift jewelry trait. Calling for total sweeping change is just bad. We should argue against sweeping changes.Fan of playing magblade since 2015. (PC NA)
Might be joking in comments.
-->(((Cyrodiil)))<--4 -
Teeba_Shei✭✭✭✭✭
✭Not sure if a lot of the posters in here are serious. Rapids only gets removed on the first attack or heal you use on other people. You can heal yourself or shield while rapids is on. The point of rapids spam is to constantly have 100% snare removal and keep everyone moving at 30% movement speed. Even if it gets removed on the first attack or heal it allows ball groups to move around while being incredible hard to CC or lock down at all.
Watch a strong guild group and they always have 1 or 2 people spamming rapids because it is just that strong.5 -
Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The only speed enhancer that needs a reasonable adjustment is the swift jewelry trait. Calling for total sweeping change is just bad. We should argue against sweeping changes.
What we call for doesn't really matter, sweeping is what we're getting. This post is just pointing out that they missed a spot.1 -
All Rapid Maneuvers are useful for moving between points at higher speed. Point of Retreating Maneuver is to also grant immunity to all kind of slowdowns while also removing ALL already applied to EVERYONE in close proximity. Useless when moving between keeps. Priceless when pushing inside keeps.TequilaFire wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »codestripper wrote: »Can't tell if serious or troll...Wolf_Watching wrote: »I think I’m going to quit after reading OPs point. I’ve lost all hope.
Just about every speed and mobility skill or mechanic in the game has received a nerf, and the developers very clearly cited their motivations and goals for the changes. How would it make any sense that one of the most ubiquitous sources of major expedition also remains untouched?
It only serves to benefit raid-sized groups.
I benefits everyone and is removed on your first attack.
If it's so weak then why do you have a person dedicated whose job it is to spam it? Where's the blood altar spammer?
Talk about a straw man argument. smh
There's absolutely no straw man argument. The argument is simple.
If the skill is so inherently weak then why is there a person dedicated to spamming it? Blood altar is weak, and IIRC most raids don't have someone perpetually spamming blood alter, or using high regen sets to support the spamming of a single skill.
The answer is that you have no argument in defending Retreating Maneuvers. The skill is indefensible.
What ever you say dude even if you are wrong.
You haven't added anything to counter the very simple argument that you have a dedicated rapids spammer (if not two) in large organized raids to provide exceptionally high uptimes of Major Expedition and Root/Snare immunity to up to 22/23 other people at no investment cost to the 22/23 others. And whilst every other source available for both of these buffs has been put into the trashcan, Retreating Maneuvers has not been.
I cannot help you if you do not see the obvious irony in being run down by 24 people when they use a skill called "retreating maneuvers".
It doesn't work that way as Rapids only gets applied to those in the group near you and rarely are that many people that close.
Usually when riding across Cyro we have to have someone with rapids on point and at the rear for those that don't slot it themselves.
Counter Point - Why do large groups have dedicated CC spammers?
Most pugs do not use i.e. Retreating Maneuver to counter it. In other words to get rid of easy targets.TequilaFire wrote: »Counter Point - Why do large groups have dedicated CC spammers?Edited by alterfenixeb17_ESO on October 8, 2018 7:27PM0 -
usmguy1234✭✭✭✭✭
✭As it stands, Rapid Maneuvers is the most imbalanced skill in PVP, giving an incredible advantage to large sized groups. By assigning a member to keep rapids up, solo and small groups have been severely handicapped, possibly more than at any other time.
The change to expedition potions included a developer’s note that the motivation was to remove 100% access to this buff without putting too much effort into it.
The stated goal of this update’s balance changes was to reduce overall mobility. To not change Rapids would be an incredible oversight. I suggest the effect be changed to only give
Expedition to one or two other group members to avoid 100% uptime of major expedition in large groups.
I am interested to hear other ideas from
The community on how to balance rapids.
New effect: casting rapids on a group of 10 or more causes the group to take 1 million oblivion damage and be vaporized in to ashes. Molag bal descends from a rift in the sky and desecrates the ashes with his spear making rapid crouching motions.Zaghigoth- Orc Stamplar
Soul Razor- Altmer Magsorc
Les Drago- Redguard Stamdk
Eirius- Altmer Magdk
Stormifeth- Altmer Magplar
Disclaimer: My comments are a little sarcasm mixed with truth. If you can't handle that don't respond to me.5 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »A nerf to Rapid would basically be a buff to snares and ground DoTs that snare and give keep defenses even more ability for entry denial.
The question should be around whether keeps are too hard or too easy to take right now since IMO Rapid is designed to be an invasion tool.
Currently I think keep defense is a bit too strong at the moment, but we will see what the Scatter Shot nerf does when it goes live.
I could be wrong, but I think most people who want this nerfed are salty about their mobility getting nerfed...
How is a skill entitled "Retreating Maneuvers" designated as an invasion tool?
Semantics... They had to come up with a name for it. It just ended up being the preferred morph because of the snare removal.
I suppose it would be semantics if there wasn't a skill called "Charging Maneuver".
My point is that you are using semantics as an argument and it is irrelevant.
I can't help it if the morph called Charging Maneuver is the inferior morph...
There are no semantics in my argument. Retreating Maneuvers is a skill that is not designed to be spammed, hence the ridiculous cost and the restrictions on maintaining the ME/Immunity.
The simple fact that you can bypass the very clear drawbacks of Retreating Maneuvers by repeatedly spamming it is not semantics.0331
06023 -
del9✭✭✭✭To be clear, I am against the sweepinng mobility nerfs. The reason why I want this adjusted, is because in current states, rapids causes smaller groups and solos to suffer more extemely from the nerfs. @TequilaFire
If i had it my way, none of the mobility nerfs would make it to live.PCNA5 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »
1. 7k to cast by an individual who also has to fight is far more punishing than a group who has a couple to just buff and others with their own resource pools to execute attacks
2. Yes but by that point they are in range. The duration means while my major expedition requires 1 second of GCD for me to recast my source outside of sprint, they are that much closer. It as also means that the larger groups are not effected by AOE snares which are meant to slow them down so long as they have a dedicated resource pool or 2 to just spam it the individual player does not have.
3. Bears need a good poking.
I'd say 4 seconds expedition and immunity is enough. Major Gallup can stay.2 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭To be clear, I am against the sweepinng mobility nerfs. The reason why I want this adjusted, is because in current states, rapids causes smaller groups and solos to suffer more extemely from the nerfs. @TequilaFire
If i had it my way, none of the mobility nerfs would make it to live.
Cool, and my point is why take away one of the last mobility tools?
I disagree that rapids is not also useful to small groups and solo play.
Small group play is disadvantaged by design in ESO and my hats off to those that pull it off but the good ones know what they are up against and adjust.
edit - fixed punctuation for the punctuation police.
Edited by TequilaFire on October 8, 2018 7:47PM1 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »Cool, and my point is why take away one of the last mobility tools.
I disagree that rapids is not also useful to small groups and solo play.
Small group play is disadvantaged by design in ESO and my hats off to those that pull it off but the good ones know what they are up against and adjust.
Is that an honest question, or rhetorical?0331
06020
