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Rapid Maneuvers - Balance before Live
del9
✭✭✭✭
As it stands, Rapid Maneuvers is the most imbalanced skill in PVP, giving an incredible advantage to large sized groups. As large groups have the capability of designating 1 or 2 members to continuously refresh Rapids, solo and small groups have been severely handicapped, possibly more than at any other time.
The change to expedition potions included a developer’s note that: "Due to the pass on mobility, we wanted to ensure you couldn't readily keep this buff active 100% without spending more attention to it."
The stated goal of this update’s balance changes was to reduce overall mobility. To not change Rapids would be an incredible oversight. I suggest the effect be changed to only give major expedition to one or two other group members to avoid 100% uptime of major expedition in large groups.
I am interested to hear other ideas from the community on how to balance rapids.
Edit: Among players who agree that Rapid Maneuver and its morphs should be addressed, the consensus seems to be that reducing the number of allies targetable/effected by the buffs could bring this in line with the other expedition changes. Reducing the cost may help make up for the change in value.
Edited for Developer Comment accuracy
Edited by del9 on October 9, 2018 4:59AM The change to expedition potions included a developer’s note that: "Due to the pass on mobility, we wanted to ensure you couldn't readily keep this buff active 100% without spending more attention to it."
The stated goal of this update’s balance changes was to reduce overall mobility. To not change Rapids would be an incredible oversight. I suggest the effect be changed to only give major expedition to one or two other group members to avoid 100% uptime of major expedition in large groups.
I am interested to hear other ideas from the community on how to balance rapids.
Edit: Among players who agree that Rapid Maneuver and its morphs should be addressed, the consensus seems to be that reducing the number of allies targetable/effected by the buffs could bring this in line with the other expedition changes. Reducing the cost may help make up for the change in value.
Edited for Developer Comment accuracy
PCNA
49
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usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Reduce cost of Rapid Manuevers by 25%. Buff is now a stick buffy that does not refresh on any players except the caster.0331
06025 -
codestripper✭✭✭✭✭Can't tell if serious or troll...Since everyone seems to be doing this,
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Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think I’m going to quit after reading OPs point. I’ve lost all hope.Wuuffyy,
WW/berserker playstyle advocate (I play ALL classes proficiently in PvP outside of WW as well)
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-DM for questions27 -
Hixtory✭✭✭✭codestripper wrote: »Can't tell if serious or troll...
I know right, this skill dissapear the moment you engage combat. Must be a troll18 -
del9✭✭✭✭codestripper wrote: »Can't tell if serious or troll...Wolf_Watching wrote: »I think I’m going to quit after reading OPs point. I’ve lost all hope.
Just about every speed and mobility skill or mechanic in the game has received a nerf, and the developers very clearly cited their motivations and goals for the changes. How would it make any sense that one of the most ubiquitous sources of major expedition also remains untouched?
It only serves to benefit raid-sized groups.PCNA16 -
raknorok✭✭✭I agree, while we're nerfing things across the board, lets not leave anything out, limit rapids to yourself and 1 other target and reduce the duration but not the cost proportionally. I think these changes are most inline with the spirit of ZoS and nerfing fun.the Rambunctious8 -
Rex-Umbra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Rapids only works out of combat.Xbox GT: Rex Umbrah
GM of IMPERIUM since 2015.18 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭codestripper wrote: »Can't tell if serious or troll...Wolf_Watching wrote: »I think I’m going to quit after reading OPs point. I’ve lost all hope.
Just about every speed and mobility skill or mechanic in the game has received a nerf, and the developers very clearly cited their motivations and goals for the changes. How would it make any sense that one of the most ubiquitous sources of major expedition also remains untouched?
It only serves to benefit raid-sized groups.
Because it costs 7000 stamina, falls off after any heal or attack, and is commonly used by small groups to get from one place to another.Wuuffyy,
WW/berserker playstyle advocate (I play ALL classes proficiently in PvP outside of WW as well)
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-DM for questions15 -
del9✭✭✭✭Wolf_Watching wrote: »codestripper wrote: »Can't tell if serious or troll...Wolf_Watching wrote: »I think I’m going to quit after reading OPs point. I’ve lost all hope.
Just about every speed and mobility skill or mechanic in the game has received a nerf, and the developers very clearly cited their motivations and goals for the changes. How would it make any sense that one of the most ubiquitous sources of major expedition also remains untouched?
It only serves to benefit raid-sized groups.
Because it costs 7000 stamina, falls off after any heal or attack, and is commonly used by small groups to get from one place to another.
Rapids can be refreshed between skills. And if a group is large enough, they can afford to have one or two players commit the 7k stam per cast to keep refreshing the buff.
No ‘small group’ that I know of uses rapids while dismounted.PCNA14 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wolf_Watching wrote: »codestripper wrote: »Can't tell if serious or troll...Wolf_Watching wrote: »I think I’m going to quit after reading OPs point. I’ve lost all hope.
Just about every speed and mobility skill or mechanic in the game has received a nerf, and the developers very clearly cited their motivations and goals for the changes. How would it make any sense that one of the most ubiquitous sources of major expedition also remains untouched?
It only serves to benefit raid-sized groups.
Because it costs 7000 stamina, falls off after any heal or attack, and is commonly used by small groups to get from one place to another.
Rapids can be refreshed between skills. And if a group is large enough, they can afford to have one or two players commit the 7k stam per cast to keep refreshing the buff.
No ‘small group’ that I know of uses rapids while dismounted.
Right you little potato. Big groups can afford it. Small groups can’t. You’re nerfing small groups not big groups.Wuuffyy,
WW/berserker playstyle advocate (I play ALL classes proficiently in PvP outside of WW as well)
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-DM for questions7 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭Plus it’s pointless. No combat functionalityWuuffyy,
WW/berserker playstyle advocate (I play ALL classes proficiently in PvP outside of WW as well)
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-DM for questions1 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This skill is completely indefensible on PTS from a balance perspective.0331
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Galarthor✭✭✭✭✭
✭codestripper wrote: »Can't tell if serious or troll...
It's being spammed in those groups. Though it rarely lasts the full duration.
However, the fix is simple:
Make its Major Expedition Buff only last a few seconds so it is in line with the other skills. So everybody is in the same boat. However, keep the Major Gallop duration at 30 seconds - nobody is complaining about Speed Buff on the Horse. Besides, lowering the duration for that would mean magicka builds could no longer afford to keep riding speed buff up between keeps.8 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭codestripper wrote: »Can't tell if serious or troll...Wolf_Watching wrote: »I think I’m going to quit after reading OPs point. I’ve lost all hope.
Just about every speed and mobility skill or mechanic in the game has received a nerf, and the developers very clearly cited their motivations and goals for the changes. How would it make any sense that one of the most ubiquitous sources of major expedition also remains untouched?
It only serves to benefit raid-sized groups.
I benefits everyone and is removed on your first attack.3 -
lucky_dutch✭✭✭✭I see your point but small groups often use it too.
If mobility is part of your strategy you’ll spare the bar space.0 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »codestripper wrote: »Can't tell if serious or troll...Wolf_Watching wrote: »I think I’m going to quit after reading OPs point. I’ve lost all hope.
Just about every speed and mobility skill or mechanic in the game has received a nerf, and the developers very clearly cited their motivations and goals for the changes. How would it make any sense that one of the most ubiquitous sources of major expedition also remains untouched?
It only serves to benefit raid-sized groups.
I benefits everyone and is removed on your first attack.
If it's so weak then why do you have a person dedicated whose job it is to spam it? Where's the blood altar spammer?0331
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jaysins✭✭✭Agree with op. It puts small groups at a very substantial disadvantage.Jaisins -AD Stamsorc. Can't outrun an orc sorc
Bearingitall -EP Warden. Lions and tigers and especially Bears oh my10 -
Nicalas✭✭✭Simple solution remove major expedition. Keep major gallop. Keeps the skill in line with overall mobility nerfs.Edited by Nicalas on October 8, 2018 6:44PM12
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TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »codestripper wrote: »Can't tell if serious or troll...Wolf_Watching wrote: »I think I’m going to quit after reading OPs point. I’ve lost all hope.
Just about every speed and mobility skill or mechanic in the game has received a nerf, and the developers very clearly cited their motivations and goals for the changes. How would it make any sense that one of the most ubiquitous sources of major expedition also remains untouched?
It only serves to benefit raid-sized groups.
I benefits everyone and is removed on your first attack.
If it's so weak then why do you have a person dedicated whose job it is to spam it? Where's the blood altar spammer?
Talk about a straw man argument. smh
OK I'll bite we do have dedicated healers.Edited by TequilaFire on October 8, 2018 6:46PM5 -
Taonnor✭✭✭✭✭Nerfing this skill (too hard) would kill all midscale groups and encouraging zerg play.Guild
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Thao Annare, Nightblade0 -
Olquorron✭✭✭Agreed -- this is a HUGE oversight in my opinion ... better to fix this before Murkmire drops than make players live with the consequences for months...1 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »codestripper wrote: »Can't tell if serious or troll...Wolf_Watching wrote: »I think I’m going to quit after reading OPs point. I’ve lost all hope.
Just about every speed and mobility skill or mechanic in the game has received a nerf, and the developers very clearly cited their motivations and goals for the changes. How would it make any sense that one of the most ubiquitous sources of major expedition also remains untouched?
It only serves to benefit raid-sized groups.
I benefits everyone and is removed on your first attack.
If it's so weak then why do you have a person dedicated whose job it is to spam it? Where's the blood altar spammer?
Talk about a straw man argument. smh
There's absolutely no straw man argument. The argument is simple.
If the skill is so inherently weak then why is there a person dedicated to spamming it? Blood altar is weak, and IIRC most raids don't have someone perpetually spamming blood alter, or using high regen sets to support the spamming of Blood Altar.
The answer is that you have no argument in defending Retreating Maneuvers. The skill is indefensible.Edited by usmcjdking on October 8, 2018 6:48PM0331
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TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »codestripper wrote: »Can't tell if serious or troll...Wolf_Watching wrote: »I think I’m going to quit after reading OPs point. I’ve lost all hope.
Just about every speed and mobility skill or mechanic in the game has received a nerf, and the developers very clearly cited their motivations and goals for the changes. How would it make any sense that one of the most ubiquitous sources of major expedition also remains untouched?
It only serves to benefit raid-sized groups.
I benefits everyone and is removed on your first attack.
If it's so weak then why do you have a person dedicated whose job it is to spam it? Where's the blood altar spammer?
Talk about a straw man argument. smh
There's absolutely no straw man argument. The argument is simple.
If the skill is so inherently weak then why is there a person dedicated to spamming it? Blood altar is weak, and IIRC most raids don't have someone perpetually spamming blood alter, or using high regen sets to support the spamming of a single skill.
The answer is that you have no argument in defending Retreating Maneuvers. The skill is indefensible.
Have fun walking in Cyrodiil.Edited by TequilaFire on October 8, 2018 6:51PM8 -
Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'd be alright with just Major Gallop, and snare and root removal/immunity at a reduced cost. Rapids is incredibly strong in an organized group, and if the goal is balancing sources of Expedition, it's definitely an oversight to ignore how this skill is used in practice rather than focusing on what it does on paper.Edited by Sandman929 on October 8, 2018 6:52PM1 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »codestripper wrote: »Can't tell if serious or troll...Wolf_Watching wrote: »I think I’m going to quit after reading OPs point. I’ve lost all hope.
Just about every speed and mobility skill or mechanic in the game has received a nerf, and the developers very clearly cited their motivations and goals for the changes. How would it make any sense that one of the most ubiquitous sources of major expedition also remains untouched?
It only serves to benefit raid-sized groups.
I benefits everyone and is removed on your first attack.
If it's so weak then why do you have a person dedicated whose job it is to spam it? Where's the blood altar spammer?
Talk about a straw man argument. smh
There's absolutely no straw man argument. The argument is simple.
If the skill is so inherently weak then why is there a person dedicated to spamming it? Blood altar is weak, and IIRC most raids don't have someone perpetually spamming blood alter, or using high regen sets to support the spamming of a single skill.
The answer is that you have no argument in defending Retreating Maneuvers. The skill is indefensible.
What ever you say dude even if you are wrong.
You haven't added anything to counter the very simple argument that you have a dedicated rapids spammer (if not two) in large organized raids to provide exceptionally high uptimes of Major Expedition and Root/Snare immunity to up to 22/23 other people at no investment cost to the 22/23 others. And whilst every other source available for both of these buffs has been put into the trashcan, Retreating Maneuvers has not been.
I cannot help you if you do not see the obvious irony in being run down by 24 people when they use a skill called "retreating maneuvers".0331
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TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »codestripper wrote: »Can't tell if serious or troll...Wolf_Watching wrote: »I think I’m going to quit after reading OPs point. I’ve lost all hope.
Just about every speed and mobility skill or mechanic in the game has received a nerf, and the developers very clearly cited their motivations and goals for the changes. How would it make any sense that one of the most ubiquitous sources of major expedition also remains untouched?
It only serves to benefit raid-sized groups.
I benefits everyone and is removed on your first attack.
If it's so weak then why do you have a person dedicated whose job it is to spam it? Where's the blood altar spammer?
Talk about a straw man argument. smh
There's absolutely no straw man argument. The argument is simple.
If the skill is so inherently weak then why is there a person dedicated to spamming it? Blood altar is weak, and IIRC most raids don't have someone perpetually spamming blood alter, or using high regen sets to support the spamming of a single skill.
The answer is that you have no argument in defending Retreating Maneuvers. The skill is indefensible.
What ever you say dude even if you are wrong.
You haven't added anything to counter the very simple argument that you have a dedicated rapids spammer (if not two) in large organized raids to provide exceptionally high uptimes of Major Expedition and Root/Snare immunity to up to 22/23 other people at no investment cost to the 22/23 others. And whilst every other source available for both of these buffs has been put into the trashcan, Retreating Maneuvers has not been.
I cannot help you if you do not see the obvious irony in being run down by 24 people when they use a skill called "retreating maneuvers".
It doesn't work that way as Rapids only gets applied to those in the group near you and rarely are that many people that close.
Usually when riding across Cyro we have to have someone with rapids on point and at the rear for those that don't slot it themselves.
Counter Point - Why do large groups have dedicated CC spammers?
Edited by TequilaFire on October 8, 2018 6:57PM1 -
Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »codestripper wrote: »Can't tell if serious or troll...Wolf_Watching wrote: »I think I’m going to quit after reading OPs point. I’ve lost all hope.
Just about every speed and mobility skill or mechanic in the game has received a nerf, and the developers very clearly cited their motivations and goals for the changes. How would it make any sense that one of the most ubiquitous sources of major expedition also remains untouched?
It only serves to benefit raid-sized groups.
I benefits everyone and is removed on your first attack.
If it's so weak then why do you have a person dedicated whose job it is to spam it? Where's the blood altar spammer?
Talk about a straw man argument. smh
There's absolutely no straw man argument. The argument is simple.
If the skill is so inherently weak then why is there a person dedicated to spamming it? Blood altar is weak, and IIRC most raids don't have someone perpetually spamming blood alter, or using high regen sets to support the spamming of a single skill.
The answer is that you have no argument in defending Retreating Maneuvers. The skill is indefensible.
What ever you say dude even if you are wrong.
You haven't added anything to counter the very simple argument that you have a dedicated rapids spammer (if not two) in large organized raids to provide exceptionally high uptimes of Major Expedition and Root/Snare immunity to up to 22/23 other people at no investment cost to the 22/23 others. And whilst every other source available for both of these buffs has been put into the trashcan, Retreating Maneuvers has not been.
I cannot help you if you do not see the obvious irony in being run down by 24 people when they use a skill called "retreating maneuvers".
It doesn't work that way as Rapids only gets applied to those in the group near you and rarely are that many people that close.
Usually when riding across Cyro we have to have someone with rapids on point and at the rear for those that don't slot it themselves.
Counter Point - Why do large groups have dedicated CC spammers?
That's changing the subject though. I don't think ZOS is looking at CC's specifically, they are however looking at sources of Expedition.0 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »codestripper wrote: »Can't tell if serious or troll...Wolf_Watching wrote: »I think I’m going to quit after reading OPs point. I’ve lost all hope.
Just about every speed and mobility skill or mechanic in the game has received a nerf, and the developers very clearly cited their motivations and goals for the changes. How would it make any sense that one of the most ubiquitous sources of major expedition also remains untouched?
It only serves to benefit raid-sized groups.
I benefits everyone and is removed on your first attack.
If it's so weak then why do you have a person dedicated whose job it is to spam it? Where's the blood altar spammer?
Talk about a straw man argument. smh
There's absolutely no straw man argument. The argument is simple.
If the skill is so inherently weak then why is there a person dedicated to spamming it? Blood altar is weak, and IIRC most raids don't have someone perpetually spamming blood alter, or using high regen sets to support the spamming of a single skill.
The answer is that you have no argument in defending Retreating Maneuvers. The skill is indefensible.
What ever you say dude even if you are wrong.
You haven't added anything to counter the very simple argument that you have a dedicated rapids spammer (if not two) in large organized raids to provide exceptionally high uptimes of Major Expedition and Root/Snare immunity to up to 22/23 other people at no investment cost to the 22/23 others. And whilst every other source available for both of these buffs has been put into the trashcan, Retreating Maneuvers has not been.
I cannot help you if you do not see the obvious irony in being run down by 24 people when they use a skill called "retreating maneuvers".
It doesn't work that way as Rapids only gets applied to those in the group near you and rarely are that many people that close.
Usually when riding across Cyro we have to have someone with rapids on point and at the rear for those that don't slot it themselves.
Counter Point - Why do large groups have dedicated CC spammers?
Your counterpoint is an actual strawman because absolutely no one here is saying CCs are weak.0331
06026