ALeoCat_ESO wrote: »making the two buffs multiplicative would give a 69% speed boost (1.3 * 1.3).
Emma_Overload wrote: »Nope. Player speed already has a HARD cap. If the cap is not low enough, then maybe it needs to be adjusted by the devs. Nerfing gold Swift jewelry that cost millions to craft is not the answer.
Emma - Correct. The speed cap is currently 100%. And yes. I feel your pain. I have dozens of golded out gear that are stored away because they don't perform like they used to either because of re-balancing.
ALeoCat - Multiplicative meaning that the percentage gain is only giving a percentage of the remaining percentage of speed cap. The more percentage you add, the less useful each percentage becomes. If you have 50% speed boost, then you have half the speed cap left of 50%. So if you add another 10% speed boost, you won't get an extra 10%, you'll only get 10% of the remaining 100%, which is %5, for a total of 55%. This way, there are diminishing returns, and gives stacking speed a hard choice between speed (form of mitigation) and something else like damage potential and/or sustain.
Class Rep Note
"We think it’s great some players want to play like a glass cannon, but those builds should have tradeoffs in reduced survivability. "
I agree with this philosophy. I like the idea of tradeoffs. No matter the form of damage mitigation (heals, shields, cloak, block, dodge, speed), they should all require hard choices between maximizing defense or offense. You either choose high defense, low offense OR low defense, high offense OR somewhere in between where you can sustain for a longer period of time with medium defense, medium offense.
For example, ZOS, for many patches have tried to re-work Block (the formula has been changed around, can't regen stam while blocking anymore, etc.). They tried to rework Speed (added a speed cap, reduced immobilization and snare duration, introduced Swift, etc.). They tried to rework Cloak (can't critical hit heals while in cloak, etc.). They tried to rework Heals (decreased defile duration, battle spirit, nerf to healing skills). They tried to rework Cloak (attempted to add cast time, allowed it to be critically hit, etc.). They tried to rework Dodge (needs to be purposeful and actively executed to work, etc.).
I think ZOS should continue to tweak the game to make people make hard decisions between different tradeoffs.
People currently are able to run around at 100% speed nearly all the time, Dawn Breaker, followed up with Spin-to-Win, wiping out 5-6 people, using this combo every 30 seconds. That playstyle is fine, but when you finally lock them down or trap them in a corner due to bad positioning, they need to be squishy at the same time. That's not the case at the moment. People pair that up with other powerful forms of mitigation (cloak, healing, etc.). Where's the tradeoff?
I think toning down Speed by making it multiplicative is fair.
No matter how much the cookie crumbles, the eventual feedback will be "this game moves too slow for the fast combat, please increase speed " like we had for 3-4 years till zos caved to give us Swift with all those snare changes.
Just leave it and force zos to fix the lag/buggy hitboxes that's the actual problem.
The Major Expedition buff being too strong was hinted at.
ZOS told us they are aware players are moving too fast and are too difficult to target with melee and short ranged abilities.
Class Rep Note
"We think it’s great some players want to play like a glass cannon, but those builds should have tradeoffs in reduced survivability. "
usmcjdking wrote: »Making it multiplicative would be absolutely awful and have the exact opposite effect you were looking for.
Base movement speed is 100%, not 0%. Multiplicative swift w/ major + minor expedition, orc run speed, medium armor runspeed + windrunning would provide almost 16% additional movespeed which is what I'm pretty sure you were not aiming at.
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »Making it multiplicative would be absolutely awful and have the exact opposite effect you were looking for.
Base movement speed is 100%, not 0%. Multiplicative swift w/ major + minor expedition, orc run speed, medium armor runspeed + windrunning would provide almost 16% additional movespeed which is what I'm pretty sure you were not aiming at.
Multiplicative meaning that the percentage gain is only giving a percentage of the remaining percentage of speed cap. The more percentage you add, the less useful each percentage becomes. If you have 50% speed boost, then you have half the speed cap left of 50%. So if you add another 10% speed boost, you won't get an extra 10%, you'll only get 10% of the remaining 100%, which is %5, for a total of 55%. This way, there are diminishing returns, and gives stacking speed a hard choice between speed (form of mitigation) and something else like damage potential and/or sustain.
Everyone saying “lower the cap” must not be getting the full “Swift experience.”
Three Swift, Immovable Speed potions, Forward Momentum. That is double Major Expedition IN COMBAT with 100% uptime, with more than enough snare immunity.
This lets players run circles around objects and run THROUGH other players, screwing up the targeting system. It is just not fun to play against. The speed cap doesn’t even come into play. Lowering it wouldn’t matter until they decided to sprint away.
Maybe it is enough to dramatically reduce the duration of speed potions and possibly shorten the duration of forward momentum. But I still think 30% movement speed from Swift is too much for it to stack with everything else.
Emma_Overload wrote: »Everyone saying “lower the cap” must not be getting the full “Swift experience.”
Three Swift, Immovable Speed potions, Forward Momentum. That is double Major Expedition IN COMBAT with 100% uptime, with more than enough snare immunity.
This lets players run circles around objects and run THROUGH other players, screwing up the targeting system. It is just not fun to play against. The speed cap doesn’t even come into play. Lowering it wouldn’t matter until they decided to sprint away.
Maybe it is enough to dramatically reduce the duration of speed potions and possibly shorten the duration of forward momentum. But I still think 30% movement speed from Swift is too much for it to stack with everything else.
You make it sound like there's something special about the speed boost you get from Swift, but there's not. Speed is speed, how you get to the cap doesn't matter. The targeting problems you're talking about have been around forever, and it was always possible to cause them by increasing speed all the way up to the cap, long before Swift trait existed.
Nerfing Swift is NOT going to solve the problem at all, it's just going to make the game a lot less fair by restricting access to overpowered speed buffs to certain builds.
Waffennacht wrote: »The issue with speed + LoS; with or without swift it's a relative thing.
@Dashmatt walking through players has been in existence since the beginning of the game. It was once hailed as the-go-to counter for WB juggling.
Just. Make. Snares. Work.
For the love of god the counter is staring everyone in the face and instead everyone wants blanket nerfs and roundabout changes. Allow max speed to be high. But make snares actually work fairly. This mess happened because everyone cried "wah don't snare me" instead of actually balancing them.
Remove immunity. Major and minor system 30/10% Multiplicative snares so they affect the faster ones FM/Shuffle/wings should only remove snares/roots and grant reduction to snares. Any root removed (whether with roll/purge/prev mentioned) should grant 3/4s immunity, but only after a removal, no prior immunity.
People without immunity are snared and rooted less, and people with it (the faster builds) are snared/rooted to a fair amount, but less than those without immunity.