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PLAYER SPEED: Make it multiplicative. No more stacking.

Skoomah
Skoomah
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I propose we make player speed multiplicative instead of letting it stack. This gives it diminishing returns and is in line with other forms of mitigation like physical/spell resistances. This will also tone down the speed meta to make it more in line with the other choices for damage mitigation (heals, shields, cloak, block, dodge, speed).

The speed meta is messing with the ability to target enemies. Not sure if the coding accounted for how speed is currently stackable sky high at the moment and how a skill was aimed at X location but target is already at Z location.

Start watching at 4:45 mark. Good visual explanation when you get to the pie chart.



Class Rep Notes

Player Speed
ZOS told us they are aware players are moving too fast and are too difficult to target with melee and short ranged abilities. They want to slow us down. Swift Jewelry was something that was specifically mentioned. The Major Expedition buff being too strong was hinted at. The reps agreed that players are too fast and that Swift Jewelry is a primary offender, especially when it was additive to other speed boosts and Forward Momentum. The reps did not agree that the Major Expedition was too strong. It was mentioned that diminishing returns may be a better way to address the issue than flat out nerfs as it is the stacking of speed that is the primary issue.
Edited by Skoomah on September 29, 2018 3:57AM
  • Skoomah
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    Emma - Correct. The speed cap is currently 100%. And yes. I feel your pain. I have dozens of golded out gear that are stored away because they don't perform like they used to either because of re-balancing.

    ALeoCat - Multiplicative meaning that the percentage gain is only giving a percentage of the remaining percentage of speed cap. The more percentage you add, the less useful each percentage becomes. If you have 50% speed boost, then you have half the speed cap left of 50%. So if you add another 10% speed boost, you won't get an extra 10%, you'll only get 10% of the remaining 50%, which is 5%, for a total of 55%. This way, there are diminishing returns, and gives stacking speed a hard choice between speed (form of mitigation) and something else like damage potential and/or sustain.

    Class Rep Note
    "We think it’s great some players want to play like a glass cannon, but those builds should have tradeoffs in reduced survivability. "

    I agree with this philosophy. I like the idea of tradeoffs. No matter the form of damage mitigation (heals, shields, cloak, block, dodge, speed), they should all require hard choices between maximizing defense or offense. You either choose high defense, low offense OR low defense, high offense OR somewhere in between where you can sustain for a longer period of time with medium defense, medium offense.

    For example, ZOS, for many patches have tried to re-work Block (the formula has been changed around, can't regen stam while blocking anymore, etc.). They tried to rework Speed (added a speed cap, reduced immobilization and snare duration, introduced Swift, etc.). They tried to rework Cloak (can't critical hit heals while in cloak, etc.). They tried to rework Heals (decreased defile duration, battle spirit, nerf to healing skills). They tried to rework Cloak (attempted to add cast time, allowed it to be critically hit, etc.). They tried to rework Dodge (needs to be purposeful and actively executed to work, etc.).

    I think ZOS should continue to tweak the game to make people make hard decisions between different tradeoffs.

    People currently are able to run around at 100% speed nearly all the time, Dawn Breaker, followed up with Spin-to-Win, wiping out 5-6 people, using this combo every 30 seconds. That playstyle is fine, but when you finally lock them down or trap them in a corner due to bad positioning, they need to be squishy at the same time. That's not the case at the moment. People pair that up with other powerful forms of mitigation (cloak, healing, etc.). Where's the tradeoff?

    I think toning down Speed by making it multiplicative is fair.
    Edited by Skoomah on September 29, 2018 8:12PM
  • kendellking_chaosb14_ESO
    kendellking_chaosb14_ESO
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    Nope. Player speed already has a HARD cap. If the cap is not low enough, then maybe it needs to be adjusted by the devs. Nerfing gold Swift jewelry that cost millions to craft is not the answer.

    This 100% I will unsub if the lets nerf the builds that is just too good right now instead of buffing it’s counter-play trend continues.
    Skoomah wrote: »
    Emma - Correct. The speed cap is currently 100%. And yes. I feel your pain. I have dozens of golded out gear that are stored away because they don't perform like they used to either because of re-balancing.

    ALeoCat - Multiplicative meaning that the percentage gain is only giving a percentage of the remaining percentage of speed cap. The more percentage you add, the less useful each percentage becomes. If you have 50% speed boost, then you have half the speed cap left of 50%. So if you add another 10% speed boost, you won't get an extra 10%, you'll only get 10% of the remaining 100%, which is %5, for a total of 55%. This way, there are diminishing returns, and gives stacking speed a hard choice between speed (form of mitigation) and something else like damage potential and/or sustain.

    Class Rep Note
    "We think it’s great some players want to play like a glass cannon, but those builds should have tradeoffs in reduced survivability. "

    I agree with this philosophy. I like the idea of tradeoffs. No matter the form of damage mitigation (heals, shields, cloak, block, dodge, speed), they should all require hard choices between maximizing defense or offense. You either choose high defense, low offense OR low defense, high offense OR somewhere in between where you can sustain for a longer period of time with medium defense, medium offense.

    For example, ZOS, for many patches have tried to re-work Block (the formula has been changed around, can't regen stam while blocking anymore, etc.). They tried to rework Speed (added a speed cap, reduced immobilization and snare duration, introduced Swift, etc.). They tried to rework Cloak (can't critical hit heals while in cloak, etc.). They tried to rework Heals (decreased defile duration, battle spirit, nerf to healing skills). They tried to rework Cloak (attempted to add cast time, allowed it to be critically hit, etc.). They tried to rework Dodge (needs to be purposeful and actively executed to work, etc.).

    I think ZOS should continue to tweak the game to make people make hard decisions between different tradeoffs.

    People currently are able to run around at 100% speed nearly all the time, Dawn Breaker, followed up with Spin-to-Win, wiping out 5-6 people, using this combo every 30 seconds. That playstyle is fine, but when you finally lock them down or trap them in a corner due to bad positioning, they need to be squishy at the same time. That's not the case at the moment. People pair that up with other powerful forms of mitigation (cloak, healing, etc.). Where's the tradeoff?

    I think toning down Speed by making it multiplicative is fair.

    I actually agree with the core of this. A change that slowed your speed for each piece of heavy armor would do. Since nearly everyone has a 5/1/1 it will help put the brakes on speed builds without hurting light and medium build too much and making the gear unusable.
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  • Arciris
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    Minno wrote: »
    No matter how much the cookie crumbles, the eventual feedback will be "this game moves too slow for the fast combat, please increase speed " like we had for 3-4 years till zos caved to give us Swift with all those snare changes.

    Just leave it and force zos to fix the lag/buggy hitboxes that's the actual problem.

    Agree with this ^^

    3x Swift costs 2400 stamina or 2400 magika or 3000 health each second, compared to using base traits. That is already a huge cost compared to other forms of gaining/maintaining speed. Plus it's not even the issue.

    Hitboxes are behaving in a weird manner lately. You can even miss attacks on perfectly static Target Dummies, while in the comfort (meaning usually better FPS and less lag, if you didn't cluttered your house).

    Skills are also sometimes not firing off. This could also be part of the issue.
  • Gilvoth
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    speed allready has a max cap, its fine as it is.
    be assured, that i did read your response to my feedback comment(s), i always do. and unless i respond back to your comment directly, then i will always stand by my original feedback statement.
    and by the way:
    best in slot: is the armor, weapon, clothing look, pet, or no pet, jewelry, race, class, skill choices, amount of DPS, and skin color best fit to you and the way you wish to play and makes you feel good and performs what YOU think it should be.
    worst in slot: what you read in zone chat, and forum comment, and forum thread, and you tube video, and live streamer advice, and class rep advice, and guild chat advice, and whisper told you to wear, and use for skill, and dress like, and use for weapon and armor.
  • eso_nya
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    Make a naked fistfighting campaign.
  • Fischblut
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    The Major Expedition buff being too strong was hinted at.

    :D They really have no idea what they want to do with this game.
    They forgot that they already took away 10% off Major Expedition it in the past... Then recently we lost +15% more mounted speed. Now they want to nerf our pathetic speed even more :| Soon we will need mounts only for standing near the wayshrines showing off :/
    ZOS told us they are aware players are moving too fast and are too difficult to target with melee and short ranged abilities.

    Players also use extra speed for PvE activities :| I'm so glad I did all my heists and sacraments before stupid speed nerfs.
    Edited by Fischblut on September 29, 2018 6:39PM
  • Taleof2Cities
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    Skoomah wrote: »
    Class Rep Note
    "We think it’s great some players want to play like a glass cannon, but those builds should have tradeoffs in reduced survivability. "

    Your interpretation of "glass cannon" is not the same as the class reps or the majority of players, @Skoomah.

    Glass cannon is a character that sacrifices survivability for damage ... not a character that sacrifices survivability for speed and damage.

    Though a lot of 3-Swift players I see in Cyrodiil just run around not doing any damage, I don't support this idea and ZOS will not support it either.
  • Skoomah
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    If you take the quote literally as written, then you’re right. The definition you described is correct. But if you thought about it some more, you’d understand the spirit of what is trying to be communicated. ZOS does not want people making Immortal builds anymore where you have nearly no weaknesses. They want you to make hard choices between offense and defense. In the current setup. You can have both with nearly no downsides.

    Like I said in an earlier part of this post, there are many forms of mitigation and speed is just one of them. I get that people like their speed and I get it’s a playstyle people like to play, but at the same time, you shouldn’t be able to run around super fast and avoid tons of damage and then at the same time blow people up with tons of damage.

    I believe I’m being consistent here with how I’ve commented how people shouldn’t be able to stack big shields and blow people up fast either. Stamina and magicka builds should be treated the same.

    I didn’t say ruin speed builds. I didn’t say remove the trait. I am only recommending it get toned down so their are real trade offs when making a build.
    Edited by Skoomah on September 29, 2018 8:13PM
  • paulsimonps
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    Do you know how messed up it would be to have diminishing returns in the way you described? It would go against all other forms of calculation we have in the game, it would not make sense and players would just be even more confused at how things work. Whatever change that we need ain't this.
  • brandonv516
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    So then there needs to be diminishing returns for all of the other traits then.
  • usmcjdking
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    Making it multiplicative would be absolutely awful and have the exact opposite effect you were looking for.

    Base movement speed is 100%, not 0%. Multiplicative swift w/ major + minor expedition, orc run speed, medium armor runspeed + windrunning would provide almost 16% additional movespeed which is what I'm pretty sure you were not aiming at.
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  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    usmcjdking wrote: »
    Making it multiplicative would be absolutely awful and have the exact opposite effect you were looking for.

    Base movement speed is 100%, not 0%. Multiplicative swift w/ major + minor expedition, orc run speed, medium armor runspeed + windrunning would provide almost 16% additional movespeed which is what I'm pretty sure you were not aiming at.


    Multiplicative meaning that the percentage gain is only giving a percentage of the remaining percentage of speed cap. The more percentage you add, the less useful each percentage becomes. If you have 50% speed boost, then you have half the speed cap left of 50%. So if you add another 10% speed boost, you won't get an extra 10%, you'll only get 10% of the remaining 100%, which is %5, for a total of 55%. This way, there are diminishing returns, and gives stacking speed a hard choice between speed (form of mitigation) and something else like damage potential and/or sustain.
  • usmcjdking
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    usmcjdking wrote: »
    Making it multiplicative would be absolutely awful and have the exact opposite effect you were looking for.

    Base movement speed is 100%, not 0%. Multiplicative swift w/ major + minor expedition, orc run speed, medium armor runspeed + windrunning would provide almost 16% additional movespeed which is what I'm pretty sure you were not aiming at.


    Multiplicative meaning that the percentage gain is only giving a percentage of the remaining percentage of speed cap. The more percentage you add, the less useful each percentage becomes. If you have 50% speed boost, then you have half the speed cap left of 50%. So if you add another 10% speed boost, you won't get an extra 10%, you'll only get 10% of the remaining 100%, which is %5, for a total of 55%. This way, there are diminishing returns, and gives stacking speed a hard choice between speed (form of mitigation) and something else like damage potential and/or sustain.

    That's submodularity and has absolutely nothing to do with multiplicative functions.
    Edited by usmcjdking on September 29, 2018 8:52PM
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  • ak_pvp
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    Just. Make. Snares. Work.

    For the love of god the counter is staring everyone in the face and instead everyone wants blanket nerfs and roundabout changes. Allow max speed to be high. But make snares actually work fairly. This mess happened because everyone cried "wah don't snare me" instead of actually balancing them.

    Remove immunity. Major and minor system 30/10% Multiplicative snares so they affect the faster ones FM/Shuffle/wings should only remove snares/roots and grant reduction to snares. Any root removed (whether with roll/purge/prev mentioned) should grant 3/4s immunity, but only after a removal, no prior immunity.

    People without immunity are snared and rooted less, and people with it (the faster builds) are snared/rooted to a fair amount, but less than those without immunity.
    Edited by ak_pvp on September 29, 2018 10:22PM
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  • Dashmatt
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    Everyone saying “lower the cap” must not be getting the full “Swift experience.”

    Three Swift, Immovable Speed potions, Forward Momentum. That is double Major Expedition IN COMBAT with 100% uptime, with more than enough snare immunity.

    This lets players run circles around objects and run THROUGH other players, screwing up the targeting system. It is just not fun to play against. The speed cap doesn’t even come into play. Lowering it wouldn’t matter until they decided to sprint away.

    Maybe it is enough to dramatically reduce the duration of speed potions and possibly shorten the duration of forward momentum. But I still think 30% movement speed from Swift is too much for it to stack with everything else.
  • brandonv516
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    Can't they make player hit boxes larger? This way even if a target is fast it's still easy to target.
  • prototypefb
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    melee can't hit target? let me guess dizzying swing or likes? ones that slow your movement speed but hit as a truck and stun+knockback?
    i'm sorry your opponent didn't stand still to take a hit.
    you want to move faster? add 1-2 swift, plenty of speed there+ speed potions or major+minor expedition.
    also there are ton of gapclosers, ranged snares, what is the problem exactly?
    lag might play some part in this tho, where you see opponent right next to you but he's long gone: server issues, doesnn't happen all the time, just at peak hours.
  • Lieblingsjunge
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    They just need to deal with the way Swift interacts with FM, Speed pots etc. combined with sprint.

    Swift in itseld isn't overpowered. It's overpowered when it gets stacked, especially on a Storc or a Stamden, or any other class with easy access to speed buffs.

    But that's sadly the case for most imbalance in ESO. It's how things interact with each other that's the problem. Not the things itself.
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  • Emma_Overload
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    Dashmatt wrote: »
    Everyone saying “lower the cap” must not be getting the full “Swift experience.”

    Three Swift, Immovable Speed potions, Forward Momentum. That is double Major Expedition IN COMBAT with 100% uptime, with more than enough snare immunity.

    This lets players run circles around objects and run THROUGH other players, screwing up the targeting system. It is just not fun to play against. The speed cap doesn’t even come into play. Lowering it wouldn’t matter until they decided to sprint away.

    Maybe it is enough to dramatically reduce the duration of speed potions and possibly shorten the duration of forward momentum. But I still think 30% movement speed from Swift is too much for it to stack with everything else.

    You make it sound like there's something special about the speed boost you get from Swift, but there's not. Speed is speed, how you get to the cap doesn't matter. The targeting problems you're talking about have been around forever, and it was always possible to cause them by increasing speed all the way up to the cap, long before Swift trait existed.

    Nerfing Swift is NOT going to solve the problem at all, it's just going to make the game a lot less fair by restricting access to overpowered speed buffs to certain builds.
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  • Waffennacht
    Waffennacht
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    The issue with speed + LoS; with or without swift it's a relative thing.

    @Dashmatt walking through players has been in existence since the beginning of the game. It was once hailed as the-go-to counter for WB juggling.

    If it became as OP suggested, which is actually likely to happen, then:

    With major expedition a Swift trait on purple jewelry becomes approximately 5.4%, and I think it will end up 3% when you Sprint. About 2% if you use more than 1 swift.

    And because you need major expedition (or someway to get 30%+ movement) then swift instantly is worthless
    Edited by Waffennacht on September 30, 2018 4:04PM
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  • Dashmatt
    Dashmatt
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    Dashmatt wrote: »
    Everyone saying “lower the cap” must not be getting the full “Swift experience.”

    Three Swift, Immovable Speed potions, Forward Momentum. That is double Major Expedition IN COMBAT with 100% uptime, with more than enough snare immunity.

    This lets players run circles around objects and run THROUGH other players, screwing up the targeting system. It is just not fun to play against. The speed cap doesn’t even come into play. Lowering it wouldn’t matter until they decided to sprint away.

    Maybe it is enough to dramatically reduce the duration of speed potions and possibly shorten the duration of forward momentum. But I still think 30% movement speed from Swift is too much for it to stack with everything else.

    You make it sound like there's something special about the speed boost you get from Swift, but there's not. Speed is speed, how you get to the cap doesn't matter. The targeting problems you're talking about have been around forever, and it was always possible to cause them by increasing speed all the way up to the cap, long before Swift trait existed.

    Nerfing Swift is NOT going to solve the problem at all, it's just going to make the game a lot less fair by restricting access to overpowered speed buffs to certain builds.

    There certainly is something special about Swift. It is a relatively new source of movement speed. It has no rules for how it stacks with Major or Minor buffs. It is available to everyone and always active. It is very obvious that you don’t want it nerfed, and if you read my post I don’t think directly nerfing it is the best solution either. But if you can’t see what a big impact Swift has, then I don’t know what to tell you.
    The issue with speed + LoS; with or without swift it's a relative thing.

    @Dashmatt walking through players has been in existence since the beginning of the game. It was once hailed as the-go-to counter for WB juggling.

    That’s true, but it is considerably more annoying when they are moving so quickly now.
  • ChunkyCat
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    Mathematology hurts my brain housing group.

    Just tell me when or if it gets nerfed.

    Thanks.
  • Solariken
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Just. Make. Snares. Work.

    For the love of god the counter is staring everyone in the face and instead everyone wants blanket nerfs and roundabout changes. Allow max speed to be high. But make snares actually work fairly. This mess happened because everyone cried "wah don't snare me" instead of actually balancing them.

    Remove immunity. Major and minor system 30/10% Multiplicative snares so they affect the faster ones FM/Shuffle/wings should only remove snares/roots and grant reduction to snares. Any root removed (whether with roll/purge/prev mentioned) should grant 3/4s immunity, but only after a removal, no prior immunity.

    People without immunity are snared and rooted less, and people with it (the faster builds) are snared/rooted to a fair amount, but less than those without immunity.

    Before Swift was in the game I would have said you're crazy @ak_pvp, but now I think this is the most insightful post in the thread.

    Now that speed is easy to build for, it actually does make sense to remove immunity entirely (but keep the purge effects on Wings, Shuffle, Forward Momentum, etc.).

    Don't get me wrong, I LOVE speed. I abuse it. I think it should remain a viable way to build, but reintroducing the obvious counter is the way to go while MAYBE also soft nerfing the speed sources that are active while casting skills in combat. In other words nerf speed pot uptime and change Swift to something like "+5% movement speed and +5% sprint speed"
  • katorga
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    If your problem is that you cannot hit targets at speed cap, nerfing swift won't help you. Players will still be at speed cap, just fewer of them.

    If the game engine can't handle the game engine's own, defined speed cap, that is a dev problem. My guess is that is why snare is not prevalent in game.
  • Skoomah
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    Wait. Instead of toning down speed, we’re now requesting the removal of immunity? So instead of re-balancing, we asking for the total removal of something from the game?

    Like I said before, not asking for the removal of speed. I’m recommending it gets toned down as a form of mitigation, so that it’s reasonable compared to other forms of defense.

    This is why ZOS keeps taking a hammer to balance changes instead of using a scapal most of the time. If we’re not fair about what we ask for, it unintentionally creates all sorts of additional problems because people just keep on wanting to run around like gods with barely any weaknesses.

    Wreck defile? Healing just got stronger.

    Wreck immobilizations and snares? Speed just got stronger.

    ZOS should continue to try to make it so that every kind of playstyle results in pros and cons for the player. No more god mode builds and elements in the game.
    Edited by Skoomah on September 30, 2018 6:50PM
  • Joshlenoir
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    Completely agree. You shouldn't be able to have insane speed because you can put on swift jewelery while chugging speed pots.
    Speed pots by themselves are fine and I don't think anyone was complaining about them.
    But now you have all of these players who are weak with their defensive mechanics gaining artificial tankiness because they're getting carried by the swift trait and are impossible to target with abilities like burning embers/venom claw, or biting jabs/puncturing sweeps.
    This jewlery trait was an absolute disaster and should've never been introduced into this game.
    Edited by Joshlenoir on September 30, 2018 6:55PM
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