clocksstoppe wrote: »

git gud

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Splattercat_83 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Nox_Noir wrote: »

I can imagine how painful this must have been.
May I ask what kind of scores you are used to getting on live? This might be relevant for sake of comparison, otherwise people might say that 464k is a decent score and therefore sorc will be fine...

My score on PTS was about 20K lower than I'd get on Live.

The content can get done, it's not really the point. It's that the skills impede rather than assist doing so.

Sorc and NB scores were stupid high already, this would only bring them down to more comparable to other classes. At least on the average.

If you have skill you can make leader boards on any class. Maelstrom also only ranks classes together. If your not making the leader boards then it's a problem with you not sorcs or mnb

No one said anything about "not making the leaderboards", nice straw man there. The average scores between classes were in no way balanced. A 400k score would get you on DK, Warden, and Templar leaderboards almost every week. That same score wouldn't be close to being on NB or Sorc leaderboards.

Most weeks to get on the DK, Templar, or Warden leaderboards you only need to complete VMA with virtually any score. The same could not be said of NB or Sorc. There is a gross discrepancy between the average scores of each class, if sorc lost 20k on their average score that is nothing to cry over.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

swaggasm wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

I decided to see how hellish vMA would be in the new Murkmire patch and the stupid cast time on shields. And I was right. It was hell. My score was 464k with 4 vitality and at 1:11. I did take a few pauses, mainly to get potions and food. Now I'll go stage by stage explaining how hellish each was. I will upload a crap quality video soon of the full run (OBS decided to record it in terrible resolution).

Stage 1: There weren't really any clutch moments. I had spent a lot of time on this round and knew what to do. No deaths.
Stage 2: Slightly hard, but the spinning blade damage didn't hurt too much. No deaths.
Stage 3: Again, slightly hard, but probably one of the easiest rounds in vMA. No deaths.
Stage 4: A few times where my shield didn't go up until I was at like half health. No deaths.
Stage 5: This is where it really started to get hellish. At the 4th round, there was literally 2 times my health dropped to under 1k. If I had insta-cast shield, I wouldn't have almost died twice. No deaths tho.
Stage 6: I died this round. 3 times in a row. Once those lurchers started spawning, and the spiders who hate the glowing thing showed up, it was hard. My shield wasn't up in time 3 times in a row during the same round. Insta-cast shields would have saved me. 3 deaths. All to shield not coming up in time,
Stage 7: There as 1 time I died on the last boss due to my own dumbness. 2 times, however, my shield did not come up in time to save me. 3 deaths, 1 to my own mistake and 2 to shield not coming up in time.
Stage 8: This round was painful as well. I went out my way to get better potions here and lower my vamp stage as well. I died once to not getting out of an aoe, which is my fault. However, I did die once due to my shield not coming up in time. 2 deaths, 1 to mistake, 1 to shield not coming up in time.
Stage 9: Now I was worried about the daedroth in this stage, and I was right. I died twice to their fire because my shield did not come up in time. On the current live server, I can avoid dying to them with shield no problem. 1 death was just me being a dodo and dying to an NPC's thrown fire. 3 deaths, 1 due to mistake and 2 to shield not coming up in time.

Death Cause Tally
Player Error: 3
Shield Not Coming Up In time: 8

I suffered to show how stupid this shield cast time is. Sorcs aren't the only ones affected. Magicka nightblades, magicka templars, magicka wardens, and magicka dragonknights all have to suffer with Annulment having a cast time as well, and that shield is more expensive and covers less damage than Hardened Ward.

I don't agree with the shield change but MagSorc is still really easy in vMA with this change. Had no issues even with high latency on the PTS. Haven't tried it in a trial or a PVP situation on the PTS to compare to live but...

Proving once again that ZOS is clueless. This nerf is not going to hurt good players in PVE. They barely use shields, and when they do, they know exactly when and where to cast so all they have to do is hit the button 1 second earlier. I have seen plenty of VMA runs without a shield. Almost any score run of the first 5 trials is done without a shield so they can Double bar IL and run minor force. This is not going to lower the ceiling, its going to lower the floor. And this isnt the only thing. Look at the recent NB changes to "bring them in line." Score pushers don't use funnel health, they don't use refreshing path, and they don't slot shields. In other words, nothing will change for them (except didnt they lower the cost of ele weapon so actually, they got a buff?!?). All it does is hurt progression groups.

And I just realized @code65536 beat me to it as usual.

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Nox_Noir wrote: »

I can imagine how painful this must have been.
May I ask what kind of scores you are used to getting on live? This might be relevant for sake of comparison, otherwise people might say that 464k is a decent score and therefore sorc will be fine...

My score on PTS was about 20K lower than I'd get on Live.

The content can get done, it's not really the point. It's that the skills impede rather than assist doing so.

Sorc and NB scores were stupid high already, this would only bring them down to more comparable to other classes. At least on the average.

Record DK score is ahead of Record sorc score, Warden is 3k behind that, and templar is about 6k behind that. All of them are over 600k. Only real outliers are NB is too far out in front, and templar is a bit too far behind. NBs dont even need a shield in VMA if they know the spawns.

ResTandRespeC wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Splattercat_83 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Nox_Noir wrote: »

I can imagine how painful this must have been.
May I ask what kind of scores you are used to getting on live? This might be relevant for sake of comparison, otherwise people might say that 464k is a decent score and therefore sorc will be fine...

My score on PTS was about 20K lower than I'd get on Live.

The content can get done, it's not really the point. It's that the skills impede rather than assist doing so.

Sorc and NB scores were stupid high already, this would only bring them down to more comparable to other classes. At least on the average.

If you have skill you can make leader boards on any class. Maelstrom also only ranks classes together. If your not making the leader boards then it's a problem with you not sorcs or mnb

No one said anything about "not making the leaderboards", nice straw man there. The average scores between classes were in no way balanced. A 400k score would get you on DK, Warden, and Templar leaderboards almost every week. That same score wouldn't be close to being on NB or Sorc leaderboards.

Most weeks to get on the DK, Templar, or Warden leaderboards you only need to complete VMA with virtually any score. The same could not be said of NB or Sorc. There is a gross discrepancy between the average scores of each class, if sorc lost 20k on their average score that is nothing to cry over.

If you go by the all time boards the discrepancy is much less. Top scores for all classes are within a couple thousand (at least on ps4 NA)

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

I didn't do stage 9 as I got really bored with standing around doing nothing. But if yall really need another example of how strong these shields are and how easy they are to keep up I can do that as well.

code65536 wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

git gud

Go do vCR +3 with the shield nerf and then you can have the right to say "git gud".

clocksstoppe wrote: »

git gud

Zatox wrote: »

Surge nerf is coming next

code65536 wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

git gud

Go do vCR +3 with the shield nerf and then you can have the right to say "git gud".

@code65536 in your opinion, is a self shield required for VCR +3 or can it be covered via other defensive methods? Can't speak to +3 because I've never even stepped foot into the trial.

That would then beg the question of why are shields required for any content to begin with as not every class has access to a gigantic shield.

Is it required to just clear the content and can tolerate some deaths here and there? Probably not. Is it required if you want to clear the content consistently, without random deaths? Absolutely.

Let's say you are stacking for a flare. The flare does oblivion damage that's somewhere between 50-60% of your max health. You can't shield it since it's oblivion damage, but if you get pinged by another damage source--e.g., Malicious Strike and the accompanying Dark Drain DoT (which ticks immediately upon being hit by MS), you will die, so you want a shield up to save you from those other damage sources. Malicious Strike targets people at random, so you could be unlucky and be hit by two of them and get double the Dark Drain DoT. I've even seen someone get whacked by all three Strikes. It's a lot of spiking damage, and the only way to reliably survive it is to make sure your shield doesn't drop during those critical windows of vulnerability--when stacking for Flare, when orbs are being killed, when you get the Baneful Burst during execute. These are damage spikes that have the potential to come in so quickly that healing won't always save you (particularly any damage spikes following a Baneful Burst).

Of course, there is luck involved. Most of the time, these damage spikes don't line up in a way to kill you outright like that. But it does happen--multiple times in a long night of raiding--and praying for a reprieve from RNGesus isn't exactly a sound strategy.

It's not just vCR +3, though. vMoL HM is another example where shields are not optional, if you are backroom. Sure, shieldless stam can do vMoL HM, but not as a runner. The Breath of Lorkhaj curse dramatically reduces your healing taken and forces you out of the stack. And if you were to do this fight as ZOS intended--i.e., go through Lunar and not burn it on pad 5--you'll have 6 people who will have to deal with this (there is a reason nobody even entertains the notion of doing HM without skipping the "intended" mechanic of Lunar).

So, yes, you could say that content design is a problem. @ZOS_RobGarrett makes the wildly incorrect claim that shields are overperforming in PvE, when the reality is that difficult endgame PvE content pushes the limits of player survivability and in some cases requires the use of shielding. But what else did you expect from devs who don't participate in--and are thus out of touch with--the endgame?

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Mister_DMC , what can I say, I also main a khajiit Stam DK (only stormproof though, I don't think I'll bother gunning for more), and I'll say that it's all how you see things. You feel that magicka's survivability is too high; I feel that stamina's survivability is too low. When on DK you only have to complete to get on leaderboards, it says something.

It's like with revolutions. Some fight so there wouldn't be any rich people anymore. Some fight so there wouldn't be any poor ones. ^^

ruikkarikun wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

I didn't do stage 9 as I got really bored with standing around doing nothing. But if yall really need another example of how strong these shields are and how easy they are to keep up I can do that as well.

And? Again I saw video where man did it naked char, so what? All I see it's non-dynamical casting shield which is not eso base. Also go and test it on any world boss, any vet trial, HM vet dungeons, DLC dungeons like FH boss for example, VAS +3, VCR +3, VHRC etc.

Vahrokh wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

You are not invincible, but you can be pretty darn close with almost no investment into defense.

doc_ketamine wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

I didn't do stage 9 as I got really bored with standing around doing nothing. But if yall really need another example of how strong these shields are and how easy they are to keep up I can do that as well.

Please post a video of you doing Stage 9, final boss, with this method. It is literally the only one I cannot overcome and literally the one stage I mentioned in my prior post. And literally the only one you didn't do. Thanks.

With shields or with standing in bad? Cause if you think that the final stage on VMA needs to be doable while standing in bad, well you really need a wake up call. If you think that it cannot be done or is extra ordinarily hard, well I can make a video of me doing it for you to learn from.

The point is that shields are strong and you can shield through many mechanics that people claim the shield is too slow for or too weak for. No VMA cannot that I know of be completed on a full light build with only using sheilds and boundless storm.

VMA isn't designed for you to stand in mechanics and let them hit you. The fact that you can to a certain extent on full light armor builds speaks volumes.

You are not a valid specimen for game balance.
You have 4 (four) different classes with Flawless whereas 90% of the players can't even finish vMA at all.

Sure, if your concept of balance is like in some late 1990 MMOs, where 0.1% of the playerbase could complete the content, then be my guest.

But don't forget that the most famous of those games had 150k players, not 11 millions. It's a different audience.