What Do You Guys Feel Needs To Be Buffed With Sorc?

Valrien · September 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

I do enjoy the concept of "I don't play Sorc or have one even ready to play, but if I did I'd show you what-for"

Just as good as:
"I've seen Sorcs wipe zergs and do 60k+ DPS."
"Proof?"
"I don't have to prove anything to you"

Thank you everyone for continuing to stay on topic with the thread and ignoring the Nightblades. Your feedback is always appreciated

Oh, I would never make claims without providing proof, like some people here like to do.

That's what math is for, but I understand numbers can be difficult for some people.

I did also make a video of sorc burst (without Meteor) on a 7 impen stamblade with Impregnable on:
https://youtu.be/NhH3-fOLMeU

Flawed test. Didn't show your gear, Nightblade didn't take any defensive measures outside of HoTs.

For all anyone knows you ran a PvE build just to beef up numbers.

If you want to make claims then back them up properly

What "defensive measures" outside heal over times do you think a stamblade has?

Bone Shield?

Do you even play this game?

I have the sorc gear listed above btw, in a previous post (Destruction Mastery+Necropotence+Slimecraw) - outdated setup though (I'd use Balorgh+Master's Staff+Destruction Mastery+Light of Cyrodiil off bar now).

Dodge roll and cloak. You're not even trying at this point. Please get out of my thread and stop trolling

Valrien · September 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

By the way when people say stuff like "Sorcs have the highest burst in the game...", you guys know that's a big, fat LIE, don't you?

Meanwhile, there are Nightblades running around who can hit you with an Assassin's Will that does 20K damage. That's 20,000 HP off your health bar just from one proc! It's not even an ultimate!!!

Of course, some wise guy is going to say "Well, NBs can only do that kind of damage because of all the debuffs they put on you..." SO WHAT!?! When are Sorcs going to get some crippling debuffs attached to Curse or Cage or whatever?

I'll just copy paste this here:

Using same setup on both characters.

Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery

Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc

NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack

So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst

and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst

Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238

Everything accounted for, sorcs do have the highest burst in game (i.e. damage that lands within 1 GCD).

Note that this is not even including Fury, or Flame Reach as the CC (which you'd probably prefer over Rune Cage now).

It would not be a proper sorcerer thread without Duke trying to compare 3 sorc skills and a 200 cost ultimate with 1 NB skill and a 75 cost ultimate and claim the sorc's higher number is indicative of sorcerers being stronger

Nobody is saying sorcs are stronger/weaker, but their maximum burst is the highest in the game and that's not disputable (or someone would already have proven me wrong with numbers, not insults & rhetoric).

All I'm saying is that burst damage wise sorc is in a good spot right now and claiming anything else is disingenuous.

Only thing they need is fixes/buffs for Streak/BoL - snare/root removal preferably so mDKs wouldn't be the magicka class with most mobility.

Mostly because we all know it's useless to try when you'll just spin a new narrative that tries to prove Sorc is OP.

Everyone has mostly just given up and resorted to discussing around you

DDuke · September 2018

Valrien wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

I do enjoy the concept of "I don't play Sorc or have one even ready to play, but if I did I'd show you what-for"

Just as good as:
"I've seen Sorcs wipe zergs and do 60k+ DPS."
"Proof?"
"I don't have to prove anything to you"

Thank you everyone for continuing to stay on topic with the thread and ignoring the Nightblades. Your feedback is always appreciated

Oh, I would never make claims without providing proof, like some people here like to do.

That's what math is for, but I understand numbers can be difficult for some people.

I did also make a video of sorc burst (without Meteor) on a 7 impen stamblade with Impregnable on:
https://youtu.be/NhH3-fOLMeU

Flawed test. Didn't show your gear, Nightblade didn't take any defensive measures outside of HoTs.

For all anyone knows you ran a PvE build just to beef up numbers.

If you want to make claims then back them up properly

What "defensive measures" outside heal over times do you think a stamblade has?

Bone Shield?

Do you even play this game?

I have the sorc gear listed above btw, in a previous post (Destruction Mastery+Necropotence+Slimecraw) - outdated setup though (I'd use Balorgh+Master's Staff+Destruction Mastery+Light of Cyrodiil off bar now).

Dodge roll and cloak. You're not even trying at this point. Please get out of my thread and stop trolling

You do realize that those same defensive measures work against all other burst combos in the game as well?

What do you think happens if I block/dodge those dreaded Incap->Wills?

Sheesh...

We're comparing burst that actually lands here, and in that video I showcase that sorc burst, when it lands, is best in game and I have numbers to back that up.

Valrien wrote: »

Mostly because we all know it's useless to try when you'll just spin a new narrative that tries to prove Sorc is OP.

Everyone has mostly just given up and resorted to discussing around you

...nobody is saying Sorc is OP. For the first time in a long, long time they're actually more or less balanced.

Would be nice to discuss things without having to tear down strawmen all the time.

Aedaryl · September 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

By the way when people say stuff like "Sorcs have the highest burst in the game...", you guys know that's a big, fat LIE, don't you?

Meanwhile, there are Nightblades running around who can hit you with an Assassin's Will that does 20K damage. That's 20,000 HP off your health bar just from one proc! It's not even an ultimate!!!

Of course, some wise guy is going to say "Well, NBs can only do that kind of damage because of all the debuffs they put on you..." SO WHAT!?! When are Sorcs going to get some crippling debuffs attached to Curse or Cage or whatever?

I'll just copy paste this here:

Using same setup on both characters.

Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery

Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc

NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack

So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst

and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst

Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238

Everything accounted for, sorcs do have the highest burst in game (i.e. damage that lands within 1 GCD).

Note that this is not even including Fury, or Flame Reach as the CC (which you'd probably prefer over Rune Cage now).

It would not be a proper sorcerer thread without Duke trying to compare 3 sorc skills and a 200 cost ultimate with 1 NB skill and a 75 cost ultimate and claim the sorc's higher number is indicative of sorcerers being stronger

Nobody is saying sorcs are stronger/weaker, but their maximum burst is the highest in the game and that's not disputable (or someone would already have proven me wrong with numbers, not insults & rhetoric).

All I'm saying is that burst damage wise sorc is in a good spot right now and claiming anything else is disingenuous.

Only thing they need is fixes/buffs for Streak/BoL - snare/root removal preferably so mDKs wouldn't be the magicka class with most mobility.

Sorcerer burst isn't the best in the game because everyone block meteor all the time because you have no way to land it (no undodgeable and unblockable stun wich is GOOD or it would be op but also no way to bait the ennemy- the telegraph straigh kill the ability.)

Your theory doesn't fit practice. Meteor being 100% countered is a fact. Most other ultimate burst combo can land.

DDuke · September 2018

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

By the way when people say stuff like "Sorcs have the highest burst in the game...", you guys know that's a big, fat LIE, don't you?

Meanwhile, there are Nightblades running around who can hit you with an Assassin's Will that does 20K damage. That's 20,000 HP off your health bar just from one proc! It's not even an ultimate!!!

Of course, some wise guy is going to say "Well, NBs can only do that kind of damage because of all the debuffs they put on you..." SO WHAT!?! When are Sorcs going to get some crippling debuffs attached to Curse or Cage or whatever?

I'll just copy paste this here:

Using same setup on both characters.

Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery

Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc

NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack

So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst

and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst

Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238

Everything accounted for, sorcs do have the highest burst in game (i.e. damage that lands within 1 GCD).

Note that this is not even including Fury, or Flame Reach as the CC (which you'd probably prefer over Rune Cage now).

It would not be a proper sorcerer thread without Duke trying to compare 3 sorc skills and a 200 cost ultimate with 1 NB skill and a 75 cost ultimate and claim the sorc's higher number is indicative of sorcerers being stronger

Nobody is saying sorcs are stronger/weaker, but their maximum burst is the highest in the game and that's not disputable (or someone would already have proven me wrong with numbers, not insults & rhetoric).

All I'm saying is that burst damage wise sorc is in a good spot right now and claiming anything else is disingenuous.

Only thing they need is fixes/buffs for Streak/BoL - snare/root removal preferably so mDKs wouldn't be the magicka class with most mobility.

Sorcerer burst isn't the best in the game because everyone block meteor all the time because you have no way to land it (no undodgeable and unblockable stun wich is GOOD or it would be op but also no way to bait the ennemy- the telegraph straigh kill the ability.)

Your theory doesn't fit practice. Meteor being 100% countered is a fact. Most other ultimate burst combo can land.

Yes, that's why it's balanced now that Rune Cage isn't making the game unplayable anymore.

You can't have that amount of burst and have it land guaranteed while having the game remain playable for people who don't play tank builds.

That said, if you use Rune Cage I'd say you can still catch most of the average players in that as they try to block the Meteor (and don't dodge roll at the cue), and the burst even without Meteor (or any other ultimate) is better than Incap->Merciless if you drop target to Fury range (please, say you don't believe me so I get to post numbers again...)

Biro123 · September 2018

Valrien wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

@Valrien you did ask in Discord if the sorc chat was full of NightBlades, well you have your answer, nope cos they are all here in your thread lol

You drew then out fast, grazt

Yeah, I really dislike how everything having to do with Sorc just gets sabotaged by nightblade mains without fail.

They don't even try to hide it, either.

Same. One of the reasons I don't bother anymore. It's impossible to have any constructive discussions here since no matter how bad a state sorc' is in, they ALWAYS end up with stupid sorc' v NB arguments.

Maybe I should instead devote my time and energy to trolling NB threads?

Finviuswe · September 2018

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

By the way when people say stuff like "Sorcs have the highest burst in the game...", you guys know that's a big, fat LIE, don't you?

Meanwhile, there are Nightblades running around who can hit you with an Assassin's Will that does 20K damage. That's 20,000 HP off your health bar just from one proc! It's not even an ultimate!!!

Of course, some wise guy is going to say "Well, NBs can only do that kind of damage because of all the debuffs they put on you..." SO WHAT!?! When are Sorcs going to get some crippling debuffs attached to Curse or Cage or whatever?

I'll just copy paste this here:

Using same setup on both characters.

Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery

Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc

NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack

So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst

and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst

Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238

Everything accounted for, sorcs do have the highest burst in game (i.e. damage that lands within 1 GCD).

Note that this is not even including Fury, or Flame Reach as the CC (which you'd probably prefer over Rune Cage now).

It would not be a proper sorcerer thread without Duke trying to compare 3 sorc skills and a 200 cost ultimate with 1 NB skill and a 75 cost ultimate and claim the sorc's higher number is indicative of sorcerers being stronger

Nobody is saying sorcs are stronger/weaker, but their maximum burst is the highest in the game and that's not disputable (or someone would already have proven me wrong with numbers, not insults & rhetoric).

All I'm saying is that burst damage wise sorc is in a good spot right now and claiming anything else is disingenuous.

Only thing they need is fixes/buffs for Streak/BoL - snare/root removal preferably so mDKs wouldn't be the magicka class with most mobility.

Sorcerer burst isn't the best in the game because everyone block meteor all the time because you have no way to land it (no undodgeable and unblockable stun wich is GOOD or it would be op but also no way to bait the ennemy- the telegraph straigh kill the ability.)

Your theory doesn't fit practice. Meteor being 100% countered is a fact. Most other ultimate burst combo can land.

Meteor being so easily countered was the reason an unblockable/undodgeable cc was okay. #breakfree. #immovables.

It was a deadly burst, to be sure but a good player could get out of it alive a fair percentage of the time. Baddies were toast, but that's always the case. Let's not always balance around the lowest common denominator, shall we?

So, in sum with mechanics like magplar/stamplar heals and nb cloak out there, the rune cage+meteor combo was not actually op. It merely put sorc even with the rest of the pack.

Now, sorc is worst than the rest of the pack. Practically a dead class. No good for PvP or PvE. That is why I believe the nerf should be reverted.

Tan9oSuccka · September 2018

LOL!

Sincerely,
Stam DK’s

Anethum · September 2018

ESO_GOD wrote: »

Now, sorc is worst than the rest of the pack. Practically a dead class. No good for PvP or PvE. That is why I believe the nerf should be reverted.

it's your personal. play another classes, compare and only after this say "almost dead" etc. it need improvements as every class except stamina nb, but it's absolutly not at the weak state now. and with old rune cage (*** it forever) was simply op.

personally i think sorc should have (almost same as mage nightblade, who is completly fcked when snared) something against speed debuffs. That skills should be hard to use, but to have such option.
forward momentum as only 1 way to do this is absurd and sadism

Strider__Roshin · September 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

@Valrien you did ask in Discord if the sorc chat was full of NightBlades, well you have your answer, nope cos they are all here in your thread lol

You drew then out fast, grazt

Yeah, I really dislike how everything having to do with Sorc just gets sabotaged by nightblade mains without fail.

They don't even try to hide it, either.

Same. One of the reasons I don't bother anymore. It's impossible to have any constructive discussions here since no matter how bad a state sorc' is in, they ALWAYS end up with stupid sorc' v NB arguments.

Maybe I should instead devote my time and energy to trolling NB threads?

How is arguing that magsorcs do not need more burst damage due to them having the highest burst damage in the game, and then presenting empirical data to support our claim unconstructive? Magsorcs seem to be incapable of handling someone telling them no.

The issue is that sorcs are asking for the wrong kind of buffs. Magsorcs only seem to be interested in increasing their already top-notch burst damage (which is a ridiculous request) or for the ability to remove counterplay (undodgeable CC).

If you want more realistic buffs then you should be asking for buffs in areas where they're lacking; or buffs that would be a good QoL change that'll make magsorcs more enjoyable to play.

Here's some harsh truth for ya, magsorcs are not weak, and truthfully if it weren't for magblades I'd say they're still one of if not the best classes in the game.

Now here are some suggestions that would make magsorcs more enjoyable/stronger that won't break the game (which is what most of you desire):

1) Make Crystal Blast function exactly like Frags.
2) Have Streak break roots.
3) Give Power Surge minor intellect.
4) Give Frags the ability to proc on your back bar like the spectral bow does for Nightblades.

Nicko_Lps · September 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

@DDuke

You dont have your magsorc ready, but youre confident enough to say you will teach me how my class works. Well come with these sets and my confidence says you wont survive more than 2m.

Yeah, because I have tested it on PTS and I've had some actual good sorcs try out the setup and come to the conclusion that Cyro Light+Meditate>Lich backbar for instance

Theorycrafting is a pretty universal skillset, you don't have to "main" a class to theorycraft something. As you can see by watching seeing the mDK & magplar setups I've created and posted on youtube.

Some people can theorycraft, others don't. The latter category tends to just copy "meta builds" and then complain about the class when those builds are no longer the flavour of the month.

This is no different than the DK horde who told me a light armor destro/resto wouldn't work (I still do BGs with that character) or ppl back in 2016 who said heavy armor magplar was bad (lmao).

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

No, you where not talking about tooltip burst, i clearly remember both me and Derra mentioning you THAT cant happen vs players while you started saying i play glassy builds and all think they dont work im god i make them work bla bla. No you where claiming 9k damage cage on player.

Let's find a context for that Rune Cage conversation. Better yet, let's find the entire conversation:

People outright refusing to believe you can get a high tooltip on an ability. How does that not surprise me. Then again, here you are thinking magblades have better maximum burst than sorcs.

Some people just don't get numbers & how they work I guess.

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Its pretty much 100% known among GOOD players that a GOOD magsorc vs a GOOD magblade has no chance. Now if you think it does, make your magsorc and ill bring you a good magblade to duel. I can bet 1m gold and every mat i have you probably will be erased before 1m of the duel.

Cool, meet you on PTS? I have no interest in buying gear for a character I'm not planning to take into BGs/open world anytime soon (not until Streak/BoL break roots & snares).

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

What you fail to realize is a sorc CANT be efficient and run impen. Specially vs magica classes that a magsorc can spam harness. Now if the burst destroy both shields in 1 sec or before they even be applied yes, it makes absolute sense that magblade burst is phenomenal no matter how much you refuse to accept it and the most amazing with magblades is their amazing heals mobility cloak+teleports while they can burst that hard. But im sure you have no idea how they work thats why you complain about magsorcs so much.

I honestly can't remember the last time a magblade even landed a skill on me (apart from a Soul Assault) when I'm on either of my stamblades.

And the fact you think I was referring to impen (though even that would be preferable to divines) tells me all I need to know about your game knowledge.

If you expect to be able to just spam shields and live with divines/infused gear, it's not going to work.

Not against magblade, not against anyone who builds for burst.

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

I am playing in Vivec as i stated before, vivec is CP campain. I know a couple of GOOD magblades with phenomenal sustain that manage to pull out 15k bow procs. If i kill most of the scrubs in 15 sec, like that glorious zergling general Magblade that survived me for like 10 sec, it does not mean magblade needs a buff.

Who is saying magblade needs a buff? Lol.

It is you who is crying for sorc buffs here based on you getting trashed by a magblade. Go play magblade for a while... eagerly waiting for the "nerf stamina builds" posts as you get demolished by the weak match up of magblade

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Ive played a nb, i still have a nb bosmer but not a magblade. My magblade is in mount-leveling-mode.

Cool. Since you're not loudly shouting "stamblade op", I guess that didn't work out so well for you (surprise surprise).

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Your math is always wrong and your high self confidence is the main problem here because you actually believe what you say to a point that even if you dont believe it you force yourself to believe it just because you said so.

My math is always wrong because... you say so? You don't have any numbers to actually prove me wrong, just your own personal feelings about the subject.

Next up: earth is flat?

Ok, good talk.

You want me to seriously come on PTS and duel you with stable 280ms and 800ms lagspikes? Is your brain even functioning?
If you duel test things on PTS most ive dueled there survived 15 sec, bad examples.

You insist on tooltip nonsense, dont be a teenager now. I clearly recall that ive told you 9k is my PVE tooltip and you said yes? With your mechanical PVE acuity set? My tooltip is more because of dps sets i use + i do 9 k on players, many claimed that i wont make it work but i make it always work and prove them wrong You aint fooling somebody here, if you read up the half forum is already laughing at you.

@ to play a nerfed class. Find some yourself and play it, i say nerfed, you say best BURST GO ON RAMBO kill'em all.

According to Malcom and MANY other GOOD players a sorc has 0 ability to use impen. A defensive sorc is a dead sorc, if you cant apply pressure with your UBER DOOBER burst sorc, youre dead. Now if you think you know better about magsorcs than malcom i think you should be banned from the game and treated in a closeby RL asylum lol

Your math is always wrong since you started playing the pro theorycrafter that took account of all possible buffs and forgot the CP mitigation, also when you say sorc burst is the best by using pure dps sets your math is wrong because your brain cant stick with reality. Sorcs CANNOT play without recovery sets, and if you add a set to allow you using meditate efficiently you better use lich at the first place + use your brain to understand it.

Keep entertaining the forum

DDuke wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

I do enjoy the concept of "I don't play Sorc or have one even ready to play, but if I did I'd show you what-for"

Just as good as:
"I've seen Sorcs wipe zergs and do 60k+ DPS."
"Proof?"
"I don't have to prove anything to you"

Thank you everyone for continuing to stay on topic with the thread and ignoring the Nightblades. Your feedback is always appreciated

Oh, I would never make claims without providing proof, like some people here like to do.

That's what math is for, but I understand numbers can be difficult for some people.

I did also make a video of sorc burst (without Meteor) on a 7 impen stamblade with Impregnable on:
https://youtu.be/NhH3-fOLMeU

Flawed test. Didn't show your gear, Nightblade didn't take any defensive measures outside of HoTs.

For all anyone knows you ran a PvE build just to beef up numbers.

If you want to make claims then back them up properly

What "defensive measures" outside heal over times do you think a stamblade has?

Bone Shield?

Do you even play this game?

I have the sorc gear listed above btw, in a previous post (Destruction Mastery+Necropotence+Slimecraw) - outdated setup though (I'd use Balorgh+Master's Staff+Destruction Mastery+Light of Cyrodiil off bar now).

Lets say vigor/suffle/rolldodge forever/rally/shade(15%dmg red) perma major ward+major resolve PASSIVELY. You need more? Do you even play stamblade? You think only vigor is your defensive ?

Emmagoldman · September 2018

Yeah, there are for sure a couple of nbs that im pretty sure stay up late waiting for any post about sorcs. The input is generally pretty worthless as sorcs are a hard counter towards nbs. The same as a sorcs that QQ about magdk and being fossilized, taloned, ccd to death while floppying wings. I LOVE my stamdk in bgs and focus sorcs for easy kills. Sorcs dont need a cc like dks, let classes have their own advantage

MetalHead4x4 · September 2018

I do pretty well on my Sorc running one shield (Hardened) and Ice Staff. I run Shacklebreaker+Wizards Riposte+ Infernal Guardian. 36k Magicka (Shield is around 10.3k) and 2k magicka recovery.

Here's my suggestions:
1. Boundless should grant CC immununity for a least a few seconds.

2. Streak should grant damage immunity (for the brief time its active) I don't know how many times I get hit while using Streak (If I'm pure energy I shouldn't take damage) or at least make Streak a longer distance (gap closers reach further if you're trying to get away)

3. Offer a shield bonus (single shield) to those that don't shield stack (I hate shield stacking and we shouldn't be forced into that play style to survive in PvP, juggling 2 shields with 36k magicka cost too much)

4. Better sustain sets. I'm too lazy to farm Lich not to mention I almost never do any PvE cause its boring to me.

5. Defensive Rune, I like this, but its supposed to stun the next person who attacks me, so why when they attack me do I get stunned by their attack? Seems to negate the advantage. That first hit while its active shouldn't do anything to you.

6. More physical resistance. I can shoot magic at some stam classes all day and they seem to shrugs it off while I can't take 2 shots from a 2 hander and live.

Kadoin · September 2018

ESO_GOD wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

By the way when people say stuff like "Sorcs have the highest burst in the game...", you guys know that's a big, fat LIE, don't you?

Meanwhile, there are Nightblades running around who can hit you with an Assassin's Will that does 20K damage. That's 20,000 HP off your health bar just from one proc! It's not even an ultimate!!!

Of course, some wise guy is going to say "Well, NBs can only do that kind of damage because of all the debuffs they put on you..." SO WHAT!?! When are Sorcs going to get some crippling debuffs attached to Curse or Cage or whatever?

I'll just copy paste this here:

Using same setup on both characters.

Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery

Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc

NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack

So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst

and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst

Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238

Everything accounted for, sorcs do have the highest burst in game (i.e. damage that lands within 1 GCD).

Note that this is not even including Fury, or Flame Reach as the CC (which you'd probably prefer over Rune Cage now).

It would not be a proper sorcerer thread without Duke trying to compare 3 sorc skills and a 200 cost ultimate with 1 NB skill and a 75 cost ultimate and claim the sorc's higher number is indicative of sorcerers being stronger

Nobody is saying sorcs are stronger/weaker, but their maximum burst is the highest in the game and that's not disputable (or someone would already have proven me wrong with numbers, not insults & rhetoric).

All I'm saying is that burst damage wise sorc is in a good spot right now and claiming anything else is disingenuous.

Only thing they need is fixes/buffs for Streak/BoL - snare/root removal preferably so mDKs wouldn't be the magicka class with most mobility.

Sorcerer burst isn't the best in the game because everyone block meteor all the time because you have no way to land it (no undodgeable and unblockable stun wich is GOOD or it would be op but also no way to bait the ennemy- the telegraph straigh kill the ability.)

Your theory doesn't fit practice. Meteor being 100% countered is a fact. Most other ultimate burst combo can land.

Meteor being so easily countered was the reason an unblockable/undodgeable cc was okay. #breakfree. #immovables.

It was a deadly burst, to be sure but a good player could get out of it alive a fair percentage of the time. Baddies were toast, but that's always the case. Let's not always balance around the lowest common denominator, shall we?

So, in sum with mechanics like magplar/stamplar heals and nb cloak out there, the rune cage+meteor combo was not actually op. It merely put sorc even with the rest of the pack.

Now, sorc is worst than the rest of the pack. Practically a dead class. No good for PvP or PvE. That is why I believe the nerf should be reverted.

Rune cage and meteor wasn't OP? In what dimension? Sorc is also NOT the only class that would slot meteor, so it being "hard to land" is hardly a sorc problem that should be fixed with a band-aid like an undodgeable and unblockable stun. Meteor is a disappointing ultimate in PvP no matter what class you play. I personally slot it only for stats.

MashmalloMan · September 2018

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Stam Sorc PvE:
Strengths: Single Target dps is tied to aoe abilities to make the strongest aoe class in the game, people seem to forget that when they look at a dps parse for stam sorcs. I understand AoE dmg isn't important for boss fights which is the point in maximizing DPS, but it's worth mentioning. A large chunk of the game is AoE fights.

8% max stam/+4% front bar weapon dmg from class abilities/5% physical dmg affects endless hail/caltrops/hurricane/monster sets/flawless dawnbreaker/steel tornado(rarely use)/shrouded daggers(main spammable to compliment aoe/cleave spec for me)

Implosion compliments our AoE dmg, with every physical dmg tick having a chance to proc passive execute dmg on all targets melting trash pulls.

Rotation is pretty easy, just need to cast hurricane when it expires for optimal dmg, 12 second endless hail rotation vs 15 second hurricane duration.

Crit surge has about 3-5k self heals a second, throw down aoe dots and you will become unkillable while rezing someone.

Weaknesses:

Sustain: We have passive sustain help through 20% stam regen and 5% cost reduction. Other classes have much better options. NB which has the best sustain, has 15% stam regen + 10% from minor endurance and leeching strikes providing a free 3000 stamina for using the skill and 100 per light atk which can add up to 1500-2000 based on a solid rotation for the 1 cast.

Dark deal has no room, nor any place in a pve rotation, it's a big crutch for pvp and that's it. I'll explain my idea below.

Changes:

Flexibilty. diversity and class identity is my main concern. We have so many weapon abilities on our bar and the bound armaments is double slotted. It makes the rotation feel very stagnant. There should be an option that raises the opportunity for more dmg, but behind a skill barrier like NB's have with merciless resolve and leeching strikes. I understand bound armor isn't a toggle, but not slotting it provides 0 benefit because there is not a single skill worth slotting for solid dps, losing 8% stam and 11% light atk dmg, not to mention 20% stam regen if you don't have the atro slotted is too much of a loss..

Keep dark deal the same as it is balanced really well. Make our rotations more rewarding by making bound armaments a buff instead of a skill that is double slotted for dmg. People asking for this to be passive without the skill are asking for too much and further dumbing down the class. Take away the 20% block mitigation for 3 seconds and replace it with a stam return skill on a 15 second timer to line up with hurricane or 30 second timer to line up with crit surge.

This change to bound armor would fix mag/stam/tanking. DD's wouldn't need to double bar it to get full benefits because the buff would carry over bars, adding a stam/mag return of even 1000 every 5 seconds for a cost of 1k lasting 15 seconds would return a small 2000-2500, but it would help immensely and give us something more dynamic to work with. It would free up that back bar slot giving us more build diversity. Obviously this needs to be tuned, but I think this is what people are looking for. It's what I'm looking for.

The 20% block mitigation for 3 seconds is expensive and useless to tanks. Too short and it's attached to a dps skill. You make it provide a sustain buff and it will work for every role, not just DD or just tanks. Even healers would find use out of it.

I feel really strongly about that 1 change but other changes ->

Some tuned class abilities. Stam sorc's don't get any use from the 10% healing from dark magic, it's an awesome passive and giving some type of skill in the tree for stam users would be nice to utilize this passive.

Atro Ult - strongly agree that there is room to change the charged version to a stamina morph for wind. This would further cement our class identity for physical/wind dmg. It would help scale dmg a lot better for cp and penetration and is a very SMALL change that wouldn't nerf magicka specs. It would also give us another AoE ULT which fits our class style.

Earlier comment lost in the nb vs sorc discussion.

Making bound armor have an active buff from 15-30 seconds to line up with hurricane or crit surge would give something to mag/stam/tank/healer to make the rotations feel more dynamic. Take away the passive when slotted and add them to the buff you need to manage. Allows us to have it slotted on 1 bar, but provide the buff to both bars. Add a low cost of around 1k stam/mag and return 500 stam or 500 mag every 5 seconds to give us a better slow sustain tool. Keep dark deal/exchange the same for the burst management in pvp.

Someone elses comment had a similar idea of adding resource return to surge. I would like that because it would easily fit my rotation however seems a bit too easy. I was interested in making bound armor more dynamic.

That 1 change would buff them more than I could be happier with.

Update the ults too - they suck. Give stam classes a wind atro. There is also nothing usable for tanks, buff negate magic to not only heal but provide minor protection for 1 morph, this would help tanks/healers.

Just found these tooltips online for negate magic right after i wrote that comment above ^ ... the old skill was working so much better for different roles. I like the healing/dmg now, but it's still weak. Healing should have minor protection and dmg should have something interesting. It's a high cost ult only used for trash/self healing.
esohead.com/skills/28341-suppression-field
esohead.com/skills/28348-absorption-field

Buff streak to remove snares for 2 seconds, reduce the 50% increased cost to 20% or nothing. It is almost unusable to get away from gap closers, stam class specs can only use it 2-3 times in a row anyway as we don't have the pool to spam it.

templesus · September 2018

ESO_GOD wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

By the way when people say stuff like "Sorcs have the highest burst in the game...", you guys know that's a big, fat LIE, don't you?

Meanwhile, there are Nightblades running around who can hit you with an Assassin's Will that does 20K damage. That's 20,000 HP off your health bar just from one proc! It's not even an ultimate!!!

Of course, some wise guy is going to say "Well, NBs can only do that kind of damage because of all the debuffs they put on you..." SO WHAT!?! When are Sorcs going to get some crippling debuffs attached to Curse or Cage or whatever?

I'll just copy paste this here:

Using same setup on both characters.

Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery

Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc

NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack

So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst

and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst

Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238

Everything accounted for, sorcs do have the highest burst in game (i.e. damage that lands within 1 GCD).

Note that this is not even including Fury, or Flame Reach as the CC (which you'd probably prefer over Rune Cage now).

It would not be a proper sorcerer thread without Duke trying to compare 3 sorc skills and a 200 cost ultimate with 1 NB skill and a 75 cost ultimate and claim the sorc's higher number is indicative of sorcerers being stronger

Nobody is saying sorcs are stronger/weaker, but their maximum burst is the highest in the game and that's not disputable (or someone would already have proven me wrong with numbers, not insults & rhetoric).

All I'm saying is that burst damage wise sorc is in a good spot right now and claiming anything else is disingenuous.

Only thing they need is fixes/buffs for Streak/BoL - snare/root removal preferably so mDKs wouldn't be the magicka class with most mobility.

Sorcerer burst isn't the best in the game because everyone block meteor all the time because you have no way to land it (no undodgeable and unblockable stun wich is GOOD or it would be op but also no way to bait the ennemy- the telegraph straigh kill the ability.)

Your theory doesn't fit practice. Meteor being 100% countered is a fact. Most other ultimate burst combo can land.

Meteor being so easily countered was the reason an unblockable/undodgeable cc was okay. #breakfree. #immovables.

It was a deadly burst, to be sure but a good player could get out of it alive a fair percentage of the time. Baddies were toast, but that's always the case. Let's not always balance around the lowest common denominator, shall we?

So, in sum with mechanics like magplar/stamplar heals and nb cloak out there, the rune cage+meteor combo was not actually op. It merely put sorc even with the rest of the pack.

Now, sorc is worst than the rest of the pack. Practically a dead class. No good for PvP or PvE. That is why I believe the nerf should be reverted.

Don’t ever bring up stamplar in comparison to mag sorc, ever.

Go play a medium armor stamplar 1vX and see how good of a class it is or how good the healing is, then maybe you can use us as a reference.

Some people on these forums...you can tell they have absolutely 0 idea what they’re talking about.

Zer0oo · September 2018

Funny how many player hate mag sorcs or have problems dealing with them

Anethum · September 2018

Daus wrote: »

1) Make Crystal Blast function exactly like Frags.
2) Have Streak break roots.
3) Give Power Surge minor intellect.
4) Give Frags the ability to proc on your back bar like the spectral bow does for Nightblades.

nope, nope, maybe and nope.
1. crystal blast is at option with cc. burst, execute and cc...are u kidding?
2. streak break roots...ability wich make a distance betveen u and opponent and cc him...to break roots and as i understand snares...kidding? snare-root removal should be absolutly not this skill. U should sacrifice something to get it. another classes have no such busrt, timing, execute and cc abilities as sorcs. Every skill should be a part of the game, but not above the game.
3. minor intellect fine, but maybe not sure it will change it hard. I feel sorcs are too squishy without shields. This focus on shields is very boring thing which homogenize sorcs in general. Not sure if its right to give attention to this skill.
4. no, are u kidding? mersiless at nighblades - u should work for it, 5 light attacks...frags just procs...as u said Sorcs doesn't need more burst, they should get something they have no now, not the empovering of this side more and more...

As i said before, idk, at magesorc i feel bad because there are no any option to counter snares and roots. maybe it should be for example snare removal at second weaker morf of Hardened shield idk. Or at Winged twilight. Without immunity, because sorc is most mobile and burst pvp class in general already. He should sacrifise something to get it and to not becoome op.

Biro123 · September 2018

Daus wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

@Valrien you did ask in Discord if the sorc chat was full of NightBlades, well you have your answer, nope cos they are all here in your thread lol

You drew then out fast, grazt

Yeah, I really dislike how everything having to do with Sorc just gets sabotaged by nightblade mains without fail.

They don't even try to hide it, either.

Same. One of the reasons I don't bother anymore. It's impossible to have any constructive discussions here since no matter how bad a state sorc' is in, they ALWAYS end up with stupid sorc' v NB arguments.

Maybe I should instead devote my time and energy to trolling NB threads?

How is arguing that magsorcs do not need more burst damage due to them having the highest burst damage in the game, and then presenting empirical data to support our claim unconstructive? Magsorcs seem to be incapable of handling someone telling them no.

The issue is that sorcs are asking for the wrong kind of buffs. Magsorcs only seem to be interested in increasing their already top-notch burst damage (which is a ridiculous request) or for the ability to remove counterplay (undodgeable CC).

If you want more realistic buffs then you should be asking for buffs in areas where they're lacking; or buffs that would be a good QoL change that'll make magsorcs more enjoyable to play.

Here's some harsh truth for ya, magsorcs are not weak, and truthfully if it weren't for magblades I'd say they're still one of if not the best classes in the game.

Now here are some suggestions that would make magsorcs more enjoyable/stronger that won't break the game (which is what most of you desire):

1) Make Crystal Blast function exactly like Frags.
2) Have Streak break roots.
3) Give Power Surge minor intellect.
4) Give Frags the ability to proc on your back bar like the spectral bow does for Nightblades.

Do you really believe that burst argument has any kind of validity?
Comparing a 2-ability rotation using a cheap ultimate with a 4-ability rotation using an expensive ultimate..

How about we compare damage done in a 4 second period?
How about we take into account one of those bursts having no telegraph and an instant stun, but the other being the most telegraphed and easily counterable in game?
Or one costing more mag and more ultimate than the other?
One taking twice the bar-space to be able to deliver?
Or one continuing to give a 20% damage to all follow-up damage?

But nooo.. one does slightly more damage than the other, and that's all anyone needs to know...

Fwiw, I'm for shields not absorbing the crit part of damage, but surge being buffed.
Been asking for frags to proc off any bar for years, but now it's so nerfed, it doesn't matter anymore.
Used to ask for a spammable, but no point now with DW being pointless, and still needing to slot a destro ability.
Lose implosion and replace with something useful.. sustain buff maybe?
Sorc' needs to be able to more efficient with bar-space, but I have no suggestions worth anything since Zos is going the other way with that.

But nobody can talk about real suggestions, because they always get derailed and almost always by NBs.
(Speaking of which, I haven't played sorc' for more than 20 mins this patch.. NB is just too easy not to)

Splattercat_83 · September 2018

Houshiki wrote: »

Personally I'd prefer some previous nerfs to be undone. For instance, the dmg nerf to frags, which was, imo, only done to try and make the other morph more popular. Another would be streak's cost stacking. And rune cage, yes it needed to be nerfed, but the way it was handled missed the mark.

Honestly speaking, sorcs could use a little tweaking here and there, but they're fairly balanced as is.

On the other hand:

templesus wrote: »

Nothing, class is balanced as is. Only specs that need balancing are stamblade in PvE and PvP, magblade in PvE, and stam wardens in PvP. And all of the aforementioned need nerfs.

Yes, I do think NBs, both mag and stam, needs balancing at least in pve, I don't pvp enough to really know how they stack up. Seriously, when trial leaderboard runs are usually filled with 7-8 NB dps, there is something wrong.

Those leaderboards runners are using nightblades, but that's what it is. Those people have the skills to play a magblade or a stamblade and do it well. Nightblade in itself are harder to play than the other classes to achieve those good numbers. I have a couple friends hitting high with them 57k-60k, but I have way more friends hitting 15-20k with a nightblade than say the ones hitting 30.

You dont roll a nightblade and immediately hit 50k dps. Its agreed, those hard hitters I mentioned before hit lower solo on other classes (due to nightblade having built in buffs in their skill kit that other classes get in raid) but in group they aren't far off a nightblades dps score. If you also look at the leader boards I am sure those same people are on there with multiple characters. Not just nightblades. That's not a nightblade issue that's a skill issue. They are just better players than you or I, people dont want to just come up and admit that little part of it.

I hit 63k in group parse with my magblade. I hit 58 with my mag sorc. I personally believe the "nightblade is op" argument is invalid.

DDuke · September 2018

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

@DDuke

You dont have your magsorc ready, but youre confident enough to say you will teach me how my class works. Well come with these sets and my confidence says you wont survive more than 2m.

Yeah, because I have tested it on PTS and I've had some actual good sorcs try out the setup and come to the conclusion that Cyro Light+Meditate>Lich backbar for instance

Theorycrafting is a pretty universal skillset, you don't have to "main" a class to theorycraft something. As you can see by watching seeing the mDK & magplar setups I've created and posted on youtube.

Some people can theorycraft, others don't. The latter category tends to just copy "meta builds" and then complain about the class when those builds are no longer the flavour of the month.

This is no different than the DK horde who told me a light armor destro/resto wouldn't work (I still do BGs with that character) or ppl back in 2016 who said heavy armor magplar was bad (lmao).

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

No, you where not talking about tooltip burst, i clearly remember both me and Derra mentioning you THAT cant happen vs players while you started saying i play glassy builds and all think they dont work im god i make them work bla bla. No you where claiming 9k damage cage on player.

Let's find a context for that Rune Cage conversation. Better yet, let's find the entire conversation:

People outright refusing to believe you can get a high tooltip on an ability. How does that not surprise me. Then again, here you are thinking magblades have better maximum burst than sorcs.

Some people just don't get numbers & how they work I guess.

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Its pretty much 100% known among GOOD players that a GOOD magsorc vs a GOOD magblade has no chance. Now if you think it does, make your magsorc and ill bring you a good magblade to duel. I can bet 1m gold and every mat i have you probably will be erased before 1m of the duel.

Cool, meet you on PTS? I have no interest in buying gear for a character I'm not planning to take into BGs/open world anytime soon (not until Streak/BoL break roots & snares).

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

What you fail to realize is a sorc CANT be efficient and run impen. Specially vs magica classes that a magsorc can spam harness. Now if the burst destroy both shields in 1 sec or before they even be applied yes, it makes absolute sense that magblade burst is phenomenal no matter how much you refuse to accept it and the most amazing with magblades is their amazing heals mobility cloak+teleports while they can burst that hard. But im sure you have no idea how they work thats why you complain about magsorcs so much.

I honestly can't remember the last time a magblade even landed a skill on me (apart from a Soul Assault) when I'm on either of my stamblades.

And the fact you think I was referring to impen (though even that would be preferable to divines) tells me all I need to know about your game knowledge.

If you expect to be able to just spam shields and live with divines/infused gear, it's not going to work.

Not against magblade, not against anyone who builds for burst.

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

I am playing in Vivec as i stated before, vivec is CP campain. I know a couple of GOOD magblades with phenomenal sustain that manage to pull out 15k bow procs. If i kill most of the scrubs in 15 sec, like that glorious zergling general Magblade that survived me for like 10 sec, it does not mean magblade needs a buff.

Who is saying magblade needs a buff? Lol.

It is you who is crying for sorc buffs here based on you getting trashed by a magblade. Go play magblade for a while... eagerly waiting for the "nerf stamina builds" posts as you get demolished by the weak match up of magblade

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Ive played a nb, i still have a nb bosmer but not a magblade. My magblade is in mount-leveling-mode.

Cool. Since you're not loudly shouting "stamblade op", I guess that didn't work out so well for you (surprise surprise).

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Your math is always wrong and your high self confidence is the main problem here because you actually believe what you say to a point that even if you dont believe it you force yourself to believe it just because you said so.

My math is always wrong because... you say so? You don't have any numbers to actually prove me wrong, just your own personal feelings about the subject.

Next up: earth is flat?

Ok, good talk.

You want me to seriously come on PTS and duel you with stable 280ms and 800ms lagspikes? Is your brain even functioning?
If you duel test things on PTS most ive dueled there survived 15 sec, bad examples.

If you're so keen on fighting my sorc that's the only option right now. I'd be happy to get a nice youtube clip out of you on my mDK (or even noCP build stamblade) though

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

You insist on tooltip nonsense, dont be a teenager now. I clearly recall that ive told you 9k is my PVE tooltip and you said yes? With your mechanical PVE acuity set? My tooltip is more because of dps sets i use + i do 9 k on players, many claimed that i wont make it work but i make it always work and prove them wrong You aint fooling somebody here, if you read up the half forum is already laughing at you.

You're thinking of someone else here, I haven't said anything about "Mechanical Acuity" (a set that doesn't increase tooltip damages at all).

Not sure what you're talking about here. Maybe you have a link to the conversation?

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

@ to play a nerfed class. Find some yourself and play it, i say nerfed, you say best BURST GO ON RAMBO kill'em all.

When I decide to invest more time on sorc it'll be on my terms and after there's been changes that make the class interesting, not to prove some uneducated person that sorc isn't an "underpowered", "nerfed class". I can just link others' videos for that

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

According to Malcom and MANY other GOOD players a sorc has 0 ability to use impen. A defensive sorc is a dead sorc, if you cant apply pressure with your UBER DOOBER burst sorc, youre dead. Now if you think you know better about magsorcs than malcom i think you should be banned from the game and treated in a closeby RL asylum lol

And you still think I was talking about Impen

DDuke wrote:

And the fact you think I was referring to impen (though even that would be preferable to divines) tells me all I need to know about your game knowledge.

Maybe you should look at Malcolm's videos more closely. Not only do they showcase that sorc is still a very strong class when piloted by a good player (i.e. not you, sorry), but also shows that he likes to dodge roll a lot and uses Well-Fitted as the armor trait, which I do happen to agree is the best choice for any dmg shield based build (and most medium armor builds as well).

Far better than some meaningless 1,1k magicka you get from Divines, or Impen that remains inactive most of the time as your shields naturally don't take crits.

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Your math is always wrong since you started playing the pro theorycrafter that took account of all possible buffs and forgot the CP mitigation, also when you say sorc burst is the best by using pure dps sets your math is wrong because your brain cant stick with reality. Sorcs CANNOT play without recovery sets, and if you add a set to allow you using meditate efficiently you better use lich at the first place + use your brain to understand it.

Keep entertaining the forum

What part of noCP did you not understand? When I calculate CP (and other) mitigation it varies from target to target - there is no one answer to the question.

If you want me to calculate against a certain (probably trashy since it's coming from you) CP setup with certain amount of armor & dmg reduction buffs, say so. I'd be happy to do that just to put an end to this nonsense.

Also no, Lich+anything means less burst than using Cyrodiil's Light in place of Lich. And less survivability as well (Cyrodiil's Light is really nice for that when combined with Major Protection from channeling Meditate).

Also, if you think all magblades etc out there are running in zero sustain max burst setups... oh boy.

I don't think you've ever played another class than Sorcerer in PvP based on what I'm hearing.

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

I do enjoy the concept of "I don't play Sorc or have one even ready to play, but if I did I'd show you what-for"

Just as good as:
"I've seen Sorcs wipe zergs and do 60k+ DPS."
"Proof?"
"I don't have to prove anything to you"

Thank you everyone for continuing to stay on topic with the thread and ignoring the Nightblades. Your feedback is always appreciated

Oh, I would never make claims without providing proof, like some people here like to do.

That's what math is for, but I understand numbers can be difficult for some people.

I did also make a video of sorc burst (without Meteor) on a 7 impen stamblade with Impregnable on:
https://youtu.be/NhH3-fOLMeU

Flawed test. Didn't show your gear, Nightblade didn't take any defensive measures outside of HoTs.

For all anyone knows you ran a PvE build just to beef up numbers.

If you want to make claims then back them up properly

What "defensive measures" outside heal over times do you think a stamblade has?

Bone Shield?

Do you even play this game?

I have the sorc gear listed above btw, in a previous post (Destruction Mastery+Necropotence+Slimecraw) - outdated setup though (I'd use Balorgh+Master's Staff+Destruction Mastery+Light of Cyrodiil off bar now).

Lets say vigor/suffle/rolldodge forever/rally/shade(15%dmg red) perma major ward+major resolve PASSIVELY. You need more? Do you even play stamblade? You think only vigor is your defensive ?

I don't think you quite understood the purpose of that test (seeing maximum burst when it lands, and back then it was guaranteed to land).

Against burst that actually lands, the only thing a stamblade can do is Vigor/Rally (if you even run 2H) beforehand and Bone Shield. They do not have 30k shield stacks to hide behind.

And if you think sorc burst is somehow weaker against defensive mechanics such as dodge, I'd invite you to try and land a single Incap on my stamblade (let alone the full Incap->Merciless combo). Doesn't happen, and I dodge 100% of magblade damage where as sorcs still land their Curse damage.

Finviuswe · September 2018

Anethum wrote: »

ESO_GOD wrote: »

Now, sorc is worst than the rest of the pack. Practically a dead class. No good for PvP or PvE. That is why I believe the nerf should be reverted.

it's your personal. play another classes, compare and only after this say "almost dead" etc. it need improvements as every class except stamina nb, but it's absolutly not at the weak state now. and with old rune cage (*** it forever) was simply op.

personally i think sorc should have (almost same as mage nightblade, who is completly fcked when snared) something against speed debuffs. That skills should be hard to use, but to have such option.
forward momentum as only 1 way to do this is absurd and sadism

Mag sorc isn't even my preferred class to play. I play multiple classes on stam and enjoy that more, and yes, I use that as a point of reference for when I announce something is/isn't OP. I've also logged a ton of hours in PvP playing daily for >2 years. I have logged the most hours on mag sorc and am arguably the best at that, but it is by no means the only class I have played/play.

I agree that snares are sorc's kryponite and I am of the camp who is currently advocating for a snare cleanse on streak/boundless storm.

Kadoin wrote: »

ESO_GOD wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

By the way when people say stuff like "Sorcs have the highest burst in the game...", you guys know that's a big, fat LIE, don't you?

Meanwhile, there are Nightblades running around who can hit you with an Assassin's Will that does 20K damage. That's 20,000 HP off your health bar just from one proc! It's not even an ultimate!!!

Of course, some wise guy is going to say "Well, NBs can only do that kind of damage because of all the debuffs they put on you..." SO WHAT!?! When are Sorcs going to get some crippling debuffs attached to Curse or Cage or whatever?

I'll just copy paste this here:

Using same setup on both characters.

Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery

Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc

NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack

So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst

and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst

Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238

Everything accounted for, sorcs do have the highest burst in game (i.e. damage that lands within 1 GCD).

Note that this is not even including Fury, or Flame Reach as the CC (which you'd probably prefer over Rune Cage now).

It would not be a proper sorcerer thread without Duke trying to compare 3 sorc skills and a 200 cost ultimate with 1 NB skill and a 75 cost ultimate and claim the sorc's higher number is indicative of sorcerers being stronger

Nobody is saying sorcs are stronger/weaker, but their maximum burst is the highest in the game and that's not disputable (or someone would already have proven me wrong with numbers, not insults & rhetoric).

All I'm saying is that burst damage wise sorc is in a good spot right now and claiming anything else is disingenuous.

Only thing they need is fixes/buffs for Streak/BoL - snare/root removal preferably so mDKs wouldn't be the magicka class with most mobility.

Sorcerer burst isn't the best in the game because everyone block meteor all the time because you have no way to land it (no undodgeable and unblockable stun wich is GOOD or it would be op but also no way to bait the ennemy- the telegraph straigh kill the ability.)

Your theory doesn't fit practice. Meteor being 100% countered is a fact. Most other ultimate burst combo can land.

Meteor being so easily countered was the reason an unblockable/undodgeable cc was okay. #breakfree. #immovables.

It was a deadly burst, to be sure but a good player could get out of it alive a fair percentage of the time. Baddies were toast, but that's always the case. Let's not always balance around the lowest common denominator, shall we?

So, in sum with mechanics like magplar/stamplar heals and nb cloak out there, the rune cage+meteor combo was not actually op. It merely put sorc even with the rest of the pack.

Now, sorc is worst than the rest of the pack. Practically a dead class. No good for PvP or PvE. That is why I believe the nerf should be reverted.

Rune cage and meteor wasn't OP? In what dimension? Sorc is also NOT the only class that would slot meteor, so it being "hard to land" is hardly a sorc problem that should be fixed with a band-aid like an undodgeable and unblockable stun. Meteor is a disappointing ultimate in PvP no matter what class you play. I personally slot it only for stats.

Meteor was good for the stats, but it also had the capability to hit extremely hard if it wasn't blocked with a strong dot to boot. The key to the sorc burst is the timing, you want it all to go off at the same time and that is how you can make the combo work against better opponents (sorc's main weakness).

Rune cage could be broken free of and immovable pots were all one needed to be able to counter this combo. As someone who did play a lot of sorc, there were plenty opponents I could never even START this combo on because they were running immovables. Those people had a huge advantage over me.

Come on now, an unblockable/undodgeable stun was the perfect remedy to the otherwise uncertainty of meteor. Without a skill like that, meteor is hardly viable. In other words, you would just be turning to running a stam ulti (Dawnbreaker) on mag sorc because there's no better alternative for a damage dealing ulti. You can pair meteor with clench, but it just isn't nearly as strong and I would take DB over meteor when running clench strictly in terms of how the two skills perform together.

templesus wrote: »

ESO_GOD wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

By the way when people say stuff like "Sorcs have the highest burst in the game...", you guys know that's a big, fat LIE, don't you?

Meanwhile, there are Nightblades running around who can hit you with an Assassin's Will that does 20K damage. That's 20,000 HP off your health bar just from one proc! It's not even an ultimate!!!

Of course, some wise guy is going to say "Well, NBs can only do that kind of damage because of all the debuffs they put on you..." SO WHAT!?! When are Sorcs going to get some crippling debuffs attached to Curse or Cage or whatever?

I'll just copy paste this here:

Using same setup on both characters.

Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery

Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc

NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack

So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst

and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst

Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238

Everything accounted for, sorcs do have the highest burst in game (i.e. damage that lands within 1 GCD).

Note that this is not even including Fury, or Flame Reach as the CC (which you'd probably prefer over Rune Cage now).

It would not be a proper sorcerer thread without Duke trying to compare 3 sorc skills and a 200 cost ultimate with 1 NB skill and a 75 cost ultimate and claim the sorc's higher number is indicative of sorcerers being stronger

Nobody is saying sorcs are stronger/weaker, but their maximum burst is the highest in the game and that's not disputable (or someone would already have proven me wrong with numbers, not insults & rhetoric).

All I'm saying is that burst damage wise sorc is in a good spot right now and claiming anything else is disingenuous.

Only thing they need is fixes/buffs for Streak/BoL - snare/root removal preferably so mDKs wouldn't be the magicka class with most mobility.

Sorcerer burst isn't the best in the game because everyone block meteor all the time because you have no way to land it (no undodgeable and unblockable stun wich is GOOD or it would be op but also no way to bait the ennemy- the telegraph straigh kill the ability.)

Your theory doesn't fit practice. Meteor being 100% countered is a fact. Most other ultimate burst combo can land.

Meteor being so easily countered was the reason an unblockable/undodgeable cc was okay. #breakfree. #immovables.

It was a deadly burst, to be sure but a good player could get out of it alive a fair percentage of the time. Baddies were toast, but that's always the case. Let's not always balance around the lowest common denominator, shall we?

So, in sum with mechanics like magplar/stamplar heals and nb cloak out there, the rune cage+meteor combo was not actually op. It merely put sorc even with the rest of the pack.

Now, sorc is worst than the rest of the pack. Practically a dead class. No good for PvP or PvE. That is why I believe the nerf should be reverted.

Don’t ever bring up stamplar in comparison to mag sorc, ever.

Go play a medium armor stamplar 1vX and see how good of a class it is or how good the healing is, then maybe you can use us as a reference.

Some people on these forums...you can tell they have absolutely 0 idea what they’re talking about.

Medium armor is not the meta. Heavy armor is the meta and it is clear how heavy offers superior defensive capability in most instances without hobbling the burst or roll dodge ability of the player in any major way. If you are dying quick when running medium, actually, it is probably because you are running medium. You should also slot at least one defensive set when running medium.

Stamplar has a much higher skill ceiling than mag sorc. Sorc, you do not have to be that good to do well on. So if you do not think stamplar is performing well this patch, i have news for you, it's your build, or you, not the class. Stamplar heals are even more 'gone cuckoo' in CP, still very potent in non CP. I get many compliments on the builds I'm running because I'm usually running some type of meta build even though I will also sometimes run experimental builds.

Templar is really the only class out of the 5 that I have not spent a significant amount of time on, but I have fought against more than enough to have a gauge of how they are performing. I'd take playing on a top tier (build) stamplar over a top tier mag sorc any day of the week, and I have spent a lot of time on mag sorc magicka stacking builds that are pushing the limits of damage potential on the class. STAM HAS A HIGHER SKILL CEILING. Period, than mag sorc. So that means given a good player on each class, the stamplar would be the better spec in small scale or duels. Maybe sorc is better in BGs because of how points are calculated there.

But if you have been to Vivec lately, and are still saying stamplar is performing nowhere near mag sorc this patch, we probably ain't gonna agree on much. I'll tell you that much

templesus · September 2018

ESO_GOD wrote: »

Anethum wrote: »

ESO_GOD wrote: »

Now, sorc is worst than the rest of the pack. Practically a dead class. No good for PvP or PvE. That is why I believe the nerf should be reverted.

it's your personal. play another classes, compare and only after this say "almost dead" etc. it need improvements as every class except stamina nb, but it's absolutly not at the weak state now. and with old rune cage (*** it forever) was simply op.

personally i think sorc should have (almost same as mage nightblade, who is completly fcked when snared) something against speed debuffs. That skills should be hard to use, but to have such option.
forward momentum as only 1 way to do this is absurd and sadism

Mag sorc isn't even my preferred class to play. I play multiple classes on stam and enjoy that more, and yes, I use that as a point of reference for when I announce something is/isn't OP. I've also logged a ton of hours in PvP playing daily for >2 years. I have logged the most hours on mag sorc and am arguably the best at that, but it is by no means the only class I have played/play.

I agree that snares are sorc's kryponite and I am of the camp who is currently advocating for a snare cleanse on streak/boundless storm.

Kadoin wrote: »

ESO_GOD wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

By the way when people say stuff like "Sorcs have the highest burst in the game...", you guys know that's a big, fat LIE, don't you?

Meanwhile, there are Nightblades running around who can hit you with an Assassin's Will that does 20K damage. That's 20,000 HP off your health bar just from one proc! It's not even an ultimate!!!

Of course, some wise guy is going to say "Well, NBs can only do that kind of damage because of all the debuffs they put on you..." SO WHAT!?! When are Sorcs going to get some crippling debuffs attached to Curse or Cage or whatever?

I'll just copy paste this here:

Using same setup on both characters.

Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery

Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc

NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack

So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst

and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst

Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238

Everything accounted for, sorcs do have the highest burst in game (i.e. damage that lands within 1 GCD).

Note that this is not even including Fury, or Flame Reach as the CC (which you'd probably prefer over Rune Cage now).

It would not be a proper sorcerer thread without Duke trying to compare 3 sorc skills and a 200 cost ultimate with 1 NB skill and a 75 cost ultimate and claim the sorc's higher number is indicative of sorcerers being stronger

Nobody is saying sorcs are stronger/weaker, but their maximum burst is the highest in the game and that's not disputable (or someone would already have proven me wrong with numbers, not insults & rhetoric).

All I'm saying is that burst damage wise sorc is in a good spot right now and claiming anything else is disingenuous.

Only thing they need is fixes/buffs for Streak/BoL - snare/root removal preferably so mDKs wouldn't be the magicka class with most mobility.

Sorcerer burst isn't the best in the game because everyone block meteor all the time because you have no way to land it (no undodgeable and unblockable stun wich is GOOD or it would be op but also no way to bait the ennemy- the telegraph straigh kill the ability.)

Your theory doesn't fit practice. Meteor being 100% countered is a fact. Most other ultimate burst combo can land.

Meteor being so easily countered was the reason an unblockable/undodgeable cc was okay. #breakfree. #immovables.

It was a deadly burst, to be sure but a good player could get out of it alive a fair percentage of the time. Baddies were toast, but that's always the case. Let's not always balance around the lowest common denominator, shall we?

So, in sum with mechanics like magplar/stamplar heals and nb cloak out there, the rune cage+meteor combo was not actually op. It merely put sorc even with the rest of the pack.

Now, sorc is worst than the rest of the pack. Practically a dead class. No good for PvP or PvE. That is why I believe the nerf should be reverted.

Rune cage and meteor wasn't OP? In what dimension? Sorc is also NOT the only class that would slot meteor, so it being "hard to land" is hardly a sorc problem that should be fixed with a band-aid like an undodgeable and unblockable stun. Meteor is a disappointing ultimate in PvP no matter what class you play. I personally slot it only for stats.

Meteor was good for the stats, but it also had the capability to hit extremely hard if it wasn't blocked with a strong dot to boot. The key to the sorc burst is the timing, you want it all to go off at the same time and that is how you can make the combo work against better opponents (sorc's main weakness).

Rune cage could be broken free of and immovable pots were all one needed to be able to counter this combo. As someone who did play a lot of sorc, there were plenty opponents I could never even START this combo on because they were running immovables. Those people had a huge advantage over me.

Come on now, an unblockable/undodgeable stun was the perfect remedy to the otherwise uncertainty of meteor. Without a skill like that, meteor is hardly viable. In other words, you would just be turning to running a stam ulti (Dawnbreaker) on mag sorc because there's no better alternative for a damage dealing ulti. You can pair meteor with clench, but it just isn't nearly as strong and I would take DB over meteor when running clench strictly in terms of how the two skills perform together.

templesus wrote: »

ESO_GOD wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

By the way when people say stuff like "Sorcs have the highest burst in the game...", you guys know that's a big, fat LIE, don't you?

Meanwhile, there are Nightblades running around who can hit you with an Assassin's Will that does 20K damage. That's 20,000 HP off your health bar just from one proc! It's not even an ultimate!!!

Of course, some wise guy is going to say "Well, NBs can only do that kind of damage because of all the debuffs they put on you..." SO WHAT!?! When are Sorcs going to get some crippling debuffs attached to Curse or Cage or whatever?

I'll just copy paste this here:

Using same setup on both characters.

Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery

Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc

NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack

So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst

and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst

Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238

Everything accounted for, sorcs do have the highest burst in game (i.e. damage that lands within 1 GCD).

Note that this is not even including Fury, or Flame Reach as the CC (which you'd probably prefer over Rune Cage now).

It would not be a proper sorcerer thread without Duke trying to compare 3 sorc skills and a 200 cost ultimate with 1 NB skill and a 75 cost ultimate and claim the sorc's higher number is indicative of sorcerers being stronger

Nobody is saying sorcs are stronger/weaker, but their maximum burst is the highest in the game and that's not disputable (or someone would already have proven me wrong with numbers, not insults & rhetoric).

All I'm saying is that burst damage wise sorc is in a good spot right now and claiming anything else is disingenuous.

Only thing they need is fixes/buffs for Streak/BoL - snare/root removal preferably so mDKs wouldn't be the magicka class with most mobility.

Sorcerer burst isn't the best in the game because everyone block meteor all the time because you have no way to land it (no undodgeable and unblockable stun wich is GOOD or it would be op but also no way to bait the ennemy- the telegraph straigh kill the ability.)

Your theory doesn't fit practice. Meteor being 100% countered is a fact. Most other ultimate burst combo can land.

Meteor being so easily countered was the reason an unblockable/undodgeable cc was okay. #breakfree. #immovables.

It was a deadly burst, to be sure but a good player could get out of it alive a fair percentage of the time. Baddies were toast, but that's always the case. Let's not always balance around the lowest common denominator, shall we?

So, in sum with mechanics like magplar/stamplar heals and nb cloak out there, the rune cage+meteor combo was not actually op. It merely put sorc even with the rest of the pack.

Now, sorc is worst than the rest of the pack. Practically a dead class. No good for PvP or PvE. That is why I believe the nerf should be reverted.

Don’t ever bring up stamplar in comparison to mag sorc, ever.

Go play a medium armor stamplar 1vX and see how good of a class it is or how good the healing is, then maybe you can use us as a reference.

Some people on these forums...you can tell they have absolutely 0 idea what they’re talking about.

Medium armor is not the meta. Heavy armor is the meta and it is clear how heavy offers superior defensive capability in most instances without hobbling the burst or roll dodge ability of the player in any major way. If you are dying quick when running medium, actually, it is probably because you are running medium. You should also slot at least one defensive set when running medium.

Stamplar has a much higher skill ceiling than mag sorc. Sorc, you do not have to be that good to do well on. So if you do not think stamplar is performing well this patch, i have news for you, it's your build, or you, not the class. Stamplar heals are even more 'gone cuckoo' in CP, still very potent in non CP. I get many compliments on the builds I'm running because I'm usually running some type of meta build even though I will also sometimes run experimental builds.

Templar is really the only class out of the 5 that I have not spent a significant amount of time on, but I have fought against more than enough to have a gauge of how they are performing. I'd take playing on a top tier (build) stamplar over a top tier mag sorc any day of the week, and I have spent a lot of time on mag sorc magicka stacking builds that are pushing the limits of damage potential on the class. STAM HAS A HIGHER SKILL CEILING. Period, than mag sorc. So that means given a good player on each class, the stamplar would be the better spec in small scale or duels. Maybe sorc is better in BGs because of how points are calculated there.

But if you have been to Vivec lately, and are still saying stamplar is performing nowhere near mag sorc this patch, we probably ain't gonna agree on much. I'll tell you that much

Lol, says he has little time played on stamplar and still continues to presume he knows what he’s talking about.

I’ve played every spec in every weight you can play stamplar on. Medium, Heavy. Pure damage, 1 defensive set, pure sustain, everything, trust me. Regardless of WHAT you’re running, Mag sorc >>>> Stamplar in 1vX, which is what i originally stated. And that is from my 3rd most time played of any class on mag sorc.

Duels are another ballpark, take a class like magplar which is underperforming 1vX but with the right build dominates duels thus is the reason I said 1vX...and not duels.

There is a reason the only stamplars you really see in cyrodiil nowadays are zerglings and the top tier players are usually playing mag sorc. I can literally list out 20+ names of good pvpers on PS4 NA who have just became mag sorc mains because it is the best class for 1vX and small scale whereas I can count on one hand the amount of other good stamplars that still play the class.

Please and this is for EVERYONE on the forums do not presume to understand how a class performs because you have FOUGHT IT A BUNCH OF TIMES! That is quite possibly the most asinine statement I have ever read in my history on this earth and it completely invalidates your argument.

MetalHead4x4 · September 2018

"Sorc, you do not have to be that good to do well on."

In Vivec you have to be good, there's no Sorc easy mode in Vivec if you're not a 50k magicka shield stacker you're gonna have a damn hard time. I know, I play it. Compared to Stam, Magicka classes (especially Sorc) are weak right now. I wish I could eat half the damage physically that Stam classes do magically. There's no comparison.

DuskMarine · September 2018

MetalHead4x4 wrote: »

"Sorc, you do not have to be that good to do well on."

In Vivec you have to be good, there's no Sorc easy mode in Vivec if you're not a 50k magicka shield stacker you're gonna have a damn hard time. I know, I play it. Compared to Stam, Magicka classes (especially Sorc) are weak right now. I wish I could eat half the damage physically that Stam classes do magically. There's no comparison.

yet mages fury spam rules all practically cause thats all anyone spams. shield stackers use shields when their about to die making them god for the duration. cc, mages fury spam meanwhile procing frag almost nonstop till the passive nukes you. the only time i see decent sorc play is in sotha thats where you have to actually know how to play. vivec all people do is spam nearly.

Finviuswe · September 2018

templesus wrote: »

ESO_GOD wrote: »

Anethum wrote: »

ESO_GOD wrote: »

Now, sorc is worst than the rest of the pack. Practically a dead class. No good for PvP or PvE. That is why I believe the nerf should be reverted.

it's your personal. play another classes, compare and only after this say "almost dead" etc. it need improvements as every class except stamina nb, but it's absolutly not at the weak state now. and with old rune cage (*** it forever) was simply op.

personally i think sorc should have (almost same as mage nightblade, who is completly fcked when snared) something against speed debuffs. That skills should be hard to use, but to have such option.
forward momentum as only 1 way to do this is absurd and sadism

Mag sorc isn't even my preferred class to play. I play multiple classes on stam and enjoy that more, and yes, I use that as a point of reference for when I announce something is/isn't OP. I've also logged a ton of hours in PvP playing daily for >2 years. I have logged the most hours on mag sorc and am arguably the best at that, but it is by no means the only class I have played/play.

I agree that snares are sorc's kryponite and I am of the camp who is currently advocating for a snare cleanse on streak/boundless storm.

Kadoin wrote: »

ESO_GOD wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

By the way when people say stuff like "Sorcs have the highest burst in the game...", you guys know that's a big, fat LIE, don't you?

Meanwhile, there are Nightblades running around who can hit you with an Assassin's Will that does 20K damage. That's 20,000 HP off your health bar just from one proc! It's not even an ultimate!!!

Of course, some wise guy is going to say "Well, NBs can only do that kind of damage because of all the debuffs they put on you..." SO WHAT!?! When are Sorcs going to get some crippling debuffs attached to Curse or Cage or whatever?

I'll just copy paste this here:

Using same setup on both characters.

Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery

Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc

NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack

So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst

and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst

Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238

Everything accounted for, sorcs do have the highest burst in game (i.e. damage that lands within 1 GCD).

Note that this is not even including Fury, or Flame Reach as the CC (which you'd probably prefer over Rune Cage now).

It would not be a proper sorcerer thread without Duke trying to compare 3 sorc skills and a 200 cost ultimate with 1 NB skill and a 75 cost ultimate and claim the sorc's higher number is indicative of sorcerers being stronger

Nobody is saying sorcs are stronger/weaker, but their maximum burst is the highest in the game and that's not disputable (or someone would already have proven me wrong with numbers, not insults & rhetoric).

All I'm saying is that burst damage wise sorc is in a good spot right now and claiming anything else is disingenuous.

Only thing they need is fixes/buffs for Streak/BoL - snare/root removal preferably so mDKs wouldn't be the magicka class with most mobility.

Sorcerer burst isn't the best in the game because everyone block meteor all the time because you have no way to land it (no undodgeable and unblockable stun wich is GOOD or it would be op but also no way to bait the ennemy- the telegraph straigh kill the ability.)

Your theory doesn't fit practice. Meteor being 100% countered is a fact. Most other ultimate burst combo can land.

Meteor being so easily countered was the reason an unblockable/undodgeable cc was okay. #breakfree. #immovables.

It was a deadly burst, to be sure but a good player could get out of it alive a fair percentage of the time. Baddies were toast, but that's always the case. Let's not always balance around the lowest common denominator, shall we?

So, in sum with mechanics like magplar/stamplar heals and nb cloak out there, the rune cage+meteor combo was not actually op. It merely put sorc even with the rest of the pack.

Now, sorc is worst than the rest of the pack. Practically a dead class. No good for PvP or PvE. That is why I believe the nerf should be reverted.

Rune cage and meteor wasn't OP? In what dimension? Sorc is also NOT the only class that would slot meteor, so it being "hard to land" is hardly a sorc problem that should be fixed with a band-aid like an undodgeable and unblockable stun. Meteor is a disappointing ultimate in PvP no matter what class you play. I personally slot it only for stats.

Meteor was good for the stats, but it also had the capability to hit extremely hard if it wasn't blocked with a strong dot to boot. The key to the sorc burst is the timing, you want it all to go off at the same time and that is how you can make the combo work against better opponents (sorc's main weakness).

Rune cage could be broken free of and immovable pots were all one needed to be able to counter this combo. As someone who did play a lot of sorc, there were plenty opponents I could never even START this combo on because they were running immovables. Those people had a huge advantage over me.

Come on now, an unblockable/undodgeable stun was the perfect remedy to the otherwise uncertainty of meteor. Without a skill like that, meteor is hardly viable. In other words, you would just be turning to running a stam ulti (Dawnbreaker) on mag sorc because there's no better alternative for a damage dealing ulti. You can pair meteor with clench, but it just isn't nearly as strong and I would take DB over meteor when running clench strictly in terms of how the two skills perform together.

templesus wrote: »

ESO_GOD wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

By the way when people say stuff like "Sorcs have the highest burst in the game...", you guys know that's a big, fat LIE, don't you?

Meanwhile, there are Nightblades running around who can hit you with an Assassin's Will that does 20K damage. That's 20,000 HP off your health bar just from one proc! It's not even an ultimate!!!

Of course, some wise guy is going to say "Well, NBs can only do that kind of damage because of all the debuffs they put on you..." SO WHAT!?! When are Sorcs going to get some crippling debuffs attached to Curse or Cage or whatever?

I'll just copy paste this here:

Using same setup on both characters.

Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery

Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc

NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack

So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst

and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst

Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238

Everything accounted for, sorcs do have the highest burst in game (i.e. damage that lands within 1 GCD).

Note that this is not even including Fury, or Flame Reach as the CC (which you'd probably prefer over Rune Cage now).

It would not be a proper sorcerer thread without Duke trying to compare 3 sorc skills and a 200 cost ultimate with 1 NB skill and a 75 cost ultimate and claim the sorc's higher number is indicative of sorcerers being stronger

Nobody is saying sorcs are stronger/weaker, but their maximum burst is the highest in the game and that's not disputable (or someone would already have proven me wrong with numbers, not insults & rhetoric).

All I'm saying is that burst damage wise sorc is in a good spot right now and claiming anything else is disingenuous.

Only thing they need is fixes/buffs for Streak/BoL - snare/root removal preferably so mDKs wouldn't be the magicka class with most mobility.

Sorcerer burst isn't the best in the game because everyone block meteor all the time because you have no way to land it (no undodgeable and unblockable stun wich is GOOD or it would be op but also no way to bait the ennemy- the telegraph straigh kill the ability.)

Your theory doesn't fit practice. Meteor being 100% countered is a fact. Most other ultimate burst combo can land.

Meteor being so easily countered was the reason an unblockable/undodgeable cc was okay. #breakfree. #immovables.

It was a deadly burst, to be sure but a good player could get out of it alive a fair percentage of the time. Baddies were toast, but that's always the case. Let's not always balance around the lowest common denominator, shall we?

So, in sum with mechanics like magplar/stamplar heals and nb cloak out there, the rune cage+meteor combo was not actually op. It merely put sorc even with the rest of the pack.

Now, sorc is worst than the rest of the pack. Practically a dead class. No good for PvP or PvE. That is why I believe the nerf should be reverted.

Don’t ever bring up stamplar in comparison to mag sorc, ever.

Go play a medium armor stamplar 1vX and see how good of a class it is or how good the healing is, then maybe you can use us as a reference.

Some people on these forums...you can tell they have absolutely 0 idea what they’re talking about.

Medium armor is not the meta. Heavy armor is the meta and it is clear how heavy offers superior defensive capability in most instances without hobbling the burst or roll dodge ability of the player in any major way. If you are dying quick when running medium, actually, it is probably because you are running medium. You should also slot at least one defensive set when running medium.

Stamplar has a much higher skill ceiling than mag sorc. Sorc, you do not have to be that good to do well on. So if you do not think stamplar is performing well this patch, i have news for you, it's your build, or you, not the class. Stamplar heals are even more 'gone cuckoo' in CP, still very potent in non CP. I get many compliments on the builds I'm running because I'm usually running some type of meta build even though I will also sometimes run experimental builds.

Templar is really the only class out of the 5 that I have not spent a significant amount of time on, but I have fought against more than enough to have a gauge of how they are performing. I'd take playing on a top tier (build) stamplar over a top tier mag sorc any day of the week, and I have spent a lot of time on mag sorc magicka stacking builds that are pushing the limits of damage potential on the class. STAM HAS A HIGHER SKILL CEILING. Period, than mag sorc. So that means given a good player on each class, the stamplar would be the better spec in small scale or duels. Maybe sorc is better in BGs because of how points are calculated there.

But if you have been to Vivec lately, and are still saying stamplar is performing nowhere near mag sorc this patch, we probably ain't gonna agree on much. I'll tell you that much

Lol, says he has little time played on stamplar and still continues to presume he knows what he’s talking about.

I’ve played every spec in every weight you can play stamplar on. Medium is > Heavy. Pure damage is > defensive set, trust me. I’m probably better then most of the stamplars you’ve fought. Regardless of WHAT you’re running, Mag sorc >>>> Stamplar. There is a reason the only stamplars you really see in cyrodiil nowadays are zerglings and the top tier players are usually playing mag sorc. I can literally list out 20+ names of good pvpers on PS4 NA who have just became mag sorc mains whereas I can count on one hand the amount of other good stamplars that still play the class.

Funny, I've dropped mag sorc and am playing more and more stam nb this patch. Don't see many sorcs around at all, the ones that are around are at a disadvantage in duels. Stam is at an adavantage in duels over sorc. Sorc is effective in terms of its mobility (streak, boundless storm) and its ability to obtain killing blows, which is a nearly meaningless statistic.

I could still take out my mag sorc build that is running >50k mag fully buffed in non cp, massive shields and burst potential, but I choose to not. Why, It lost its cc which was what made it fun to play and again, stam has a far higher skill ceiling than sorc. I can clearly tell how much better I am on various stam classes than mag sorc. I win more duels. I'm dealing damage at a faster rate. Sorc seems 'god tier' to those who know little about the game... and I will assume you have never played mag sorc in your life as well.

Finviuswe · September 2018

MetalHead4x4 wrote: »

"Sorc, you do not have to be that good to do well on."

In Vivec you have to be good, there's no Sorc easy mode in Vivec if you're not a 50k magicka shield stacker you're gonna have a damn hard time. I know, I play it. Compared to Stam, Magicka classes (especially Sorc) are weak right now. I wish I could eat half the damage physically that Stam classes do magically. There's no comparison.

The general rule is sorc is op against bad players, but is less effective vs good ones compared to stam nb, or any of the other stam classes if you ask me.

I'm not a huge fan of sorc in CP PvP, if you are playing sorc in open world, you can stand back and cast damage from a range. That is probably where it is suited best.

templesus · September 2018

ESO_GOD wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

ESO_GOD wrote: »

Anethum wrote: »

ESO_GOD wrote: »

Now, sorc is worst than the rest of the pack. Practically a dead class. No good for PvP or PvE. That is why I believe the nerf should be reverted.

it's your personal. play another classes, compare and only after this say "almost dead" etc. it need improvements as every class except stamina nb, but it's absolutly not at the weak state now. and with old rune cage (*** it forever) was simply op.

personally i think sorc should have (almost same as mage nightblade, who is completly fcked when snared) something against speed debuffs. That skills should be hard to use, but to have such option.
forward momentum as only 1 way to do this is absurd and sadism

Mag sorc isn't even my preferred class to play. I play multiple classes on stam and enjoy that more, and yes, I use that as a point of reference for when I announce something is/isn't OP. I've also logged a ton of hours in PvP playing daily for >2 years. I have logged the most hours on mag sorc and am arguably the best at that, but it is by no means the only class I have played/play.

I agree that snares are sorc's kryponite and I am of the camp who is currently advocating for a snare cleanse on streak/boundless storm.

Kadoin wrote: »

ESO_GOD wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

By the way when people say stuff like "Sorcs have the highest burst in the game...", you guys know that's a big, fat LIE, don't you?

Meanwhile, there are Nightblades running around who can hit you with an Assassin's Will that does 20K damage. That's 20,000 HP off your health bar just from one proc! It's not even an ultimate!!!

Of course, some wise guy is going to say "Well, NBs can only do that kind of damage because of all the debuffs they put on you..." SO WHAT!?! When are Sorcs going to get some crippling debuffs attached to Curse or Cage or whatever?

I'll just copy paste this here:

Using same setup on both characters.

Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery

Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc

NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack

So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst

and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst

Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238

Everything accounted for, sorcs do have the highest burst in game (i.e. damage that lands within 1 GCD).

Note that this is not even including Fury, or Flame Reach as the CC (which you'd probably prefer over Rune Cage now).

It would not be a proper sorcerer thread without Duke trying to compare 3 sorc skills and a 200 cost ultimate with 1 NB skill and a 75 cost ultimate and claim the sorc's higher number is indicative of sorcerers being stronger

Nobody is saying sorcs are stronger/weaker, but their maximum burst is the highest in the game and that's not disputable (or someone would already have proven me wrong with numbers, not insults & rhetoric).

All I'm saying is that burst damage wise sorc is in a good spot right now and claiming anything else is disingenuous.

Only thing they need is fixes/buffs for Streak/BoL - snare/root removal preferably so mDKs wouldn't be the magicka class with most mobility.

Sorcerer burst isn't the best in the game because everyone block meteor all the time because you have no way to land it (no undodgeable and unblockable stun wich is GOOD or it would be op but also no way to bait the ennemy- the telegraph straigh kill the ability.)

Your theory doesn't fit practice. Meteor being 100% countered is a fact. Most other ultimate burst combo can land.

Meteor being so easily countered was the reason an unblockable/undodgeable cc was okay. #breakfree. #immovables.

It was a deadly burst, to be sure but a good player could get out of it alive a fair percentage of the time. Baddies were toast, but that's always the case. Let's not always balance around the lowest common denominator, shall we?

So, in sum with mechanics like magplar/stamplar heals and nb cloak out there, the rune cage+meteor combo was not actually op. It merely put sorc even with the rest of the pack.

Now, sorc is worst than the rest of the pack. Practically a dead class. No good for PvP or PvE. That is why I believe the nerf should be reverted.

Rune cage and meteor wasn't OP? In what dimension? Sorc is also NOT the only class that would slot meteor, so it being "hard to land" is hardly a sorc problem that should be fixed with a band-aid like an undodgeable and unblockable stun. Meteor is a disappointing ultimate in PvP no matter what class you play. I personally slot it only for stats.

Meteor was good for the stats, but it also had the capability to hit extremely hard if it wasn't blocked with a strong dot to boot. The key to the sorc burst is the timing, you want it all to go off at the same time and that is how you can make the combo work against better opponents (sorc's main weakness).

Rune cage could be broken free of and immovable pots were all one needed to be able to counter this combo. As someone who did play a lot of sorc, there were plenty opponents I could never even START this combo on because they were running immovables. Those people had a huge advantage over me.

Come on now, an unblockable/undodgeable stun was the perfect remedy to the otherwise uncertainty of meteor. Without a skill like that, meteor is hardly viable. In other words, you would just be turning to running a stam ulti (Dawnbreaker) on mag sorc because there's no better alternative for a damage dealing ulti. You can pair meteor with clench, but it just isn't nearly as strong and I would take DB over meteor when running clench strictly in terms of how the two skills perform together.

templesus wrote: »

ESO_GOD wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

By the way when people say stuff like "Sorcs have the highest burst in the game...", you guys know that's a big, fat LIE, don't you?

Meanwhile, there are Nightblades running around who can hit you with an Assassin's Will that does 20K damage. That's 20,000 HP off your health bar just from one proc! It's not even an ultimate!!!

Of course, some wise guy is going to say "Well, NBs can only do that kind of damage because of all the debuffs they put on you..." SO WHAT!?! When are Sorcs going to get some crippling debuffs attached to Curse or Cage or whatever?

I'll just copy paste this here:

Using same setup on both characters.

Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery

Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc

NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack

So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst

and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst

Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238

Everything accounted for, sorcs do have the highest burst in game (i.e. damage that lands within 1 GCD).

Note that this is not even including Fury, or Flame Reach as the CC (which you'd probably prefer over Rune Cage now).

It would not be a proper sorcerer thread without Duke trying to compare 3 sorc skills and a 200 cost ultimate with 1 NB skill and a 75 cost ultimate and claim the sorc's higher number is indicative of sorcerers being stronger

Nobody is saying sorcs are stronger/weaker, but their maximum burst is the highest in the game and that's not disputable (or someone would already have proven me wrong with numbers, not insults & rhetoric).

All I'm saying is that burst damage wise sorc is in a good spot right now and claiming anything else is disingenuous.

Only thing they need is fixes/buffs for Streak/BoL - snare/root removal preferably so mDKs wouldn't be the magicka class with most mobility.

Sorcerer burst isn't the best in the game because everyone block meteor all the time because you have no way to land it (no undodgeable and unblockable stun wich is GOOD or it would be op but also no way to bait the ennemy- the telegraph straigh kill the ability.)

Your theory doesn't fit practice. Meteor being 100% countered is a fact. Most other ultimate burst combo can land.

Meteor being so easily countered was the reason an unblockable/undodgeable cc was okay. #breakfree. #immovables.

It was a deadly burst, to be sure but a good player could get out of it alive a fair percentage of the time. Baddies were toast, but that's always the case. Let's not always balance around the lowest common denominator, shall we?

So, in sum with mechanics like magplar/stamplar heals and nb cloak out there, the rune cage+meteor combo was not actually op. It merely put sorc even with the rest of the pack.

Now, sorc is worst than the rest of the pack. Practically a dead class. No good for PvP or PvE. That is why I believe the nerf should be reverted.

Don’t ever bring up stamplar in comparison to mag sorc, ever.

Go play a medium armor stamplar 1vX and see how good of a class it is or how good the healing is, then maybe you can use us as a reference.

Some people on these forums...you can tell they have absolutely 0 idea what they’re talking about.

Medium armor is not the meta. Heavy armor is the meta and it is clear how heavy offers superior defensive capability in most instances without hobbling the burst or roll dodge ability of the player in any major way. If you are dying quick when running medium, actually, it is probably because you are running medium. You should also slot at least one defensive set when running medium.

Stamplar has a much higher skill ceiling than mag sorc. Sorc, you do not have to be that good to do well on. So if you do not think stamplar is performing well this patch, i have news for you, it's your build, or you, not the class. Stamplar heals are even more 'gone cuckoo' in CP, still very potent in non CP. I get many compliments on the builds I'm running because I'm usually running some type of meta build even though I will also sometimes run experimental builds.

Templar is really the only class out of the 5 that I have not spent a significant amount of time on, but I have fought against more than enough to have a gauge of how they are performing. I'd take playing on a top tier (build) stamplar over a top tier mag sorc any day of the week, and I have spent a lot of time on mag sorc magicka stacking builds that are pushing the limits of damage potential on the class. STAM HAS A HIGHER SKILL CEILING. Period, than mag sorc. So that means given a good player on each class, the stamplar would be the better spec in small scale or duels. Maybe sorc is better in BGs because of how points are calculated there.

But if you have been to Vivec lately, and are still saying stamplar is performing nowhere near mag sorc this patch, we probably ain't gonna agree on much. I'll tell you that much

Lol, says he has little time played on stamplar and still continues to presume he knows what he’s talking about.

I’ve played every spec in every weight you can play stamplar on. Medium is > Heavy. Pure damage is > defensive set, trust me. I’m probably better then most of the stamplars you’ve fought. Regardless of WHAT you’re running, Mag sorc >>>> Stamplar. There is a reason the only stamplars you really see in cyrodiil nowadays are zerglings and the top tier players are usually playing mag sorc. I can literally list out 20+ names of good pvpers on PS4 NA who have just became mag sorc mains whereas I can count on one hand the amount of other good stamplars that still play the class.

Funny, I've dropped mag sorc and am playing more and more stam nb this patch. Don't see many sorcs around at all, the ones that are around are at a disadvantage in duels. Stam is at an adavantage in duels over sorc. Sorc is effective in terms of its mobility (streak, boundless storm) and its ability to obtain killing blows, which is a nearly meaningless statistic.

I could still take out my mag sorc build that is running >50k mag fully buffed in non cp, massive shields and burst potential, but I choose to not. Why, It lost its cc which was what made it fun to play and again, stam has a far higher skill ceiling than sorc. I can clearly tell how much better I am on various stam classes than mag sorc. I win more duels. I'm dealing damage at a faster rate. Sorc seems 'god tier' to those who know little about the game... and I will assume you have never played mag sorc in your life as well.

I’m not sure why you keep bringing up duels when they haven’t been a determinant of skill since pre-one Tamriel. They have absolutely no impact on balance or how any class is performing in actual PvP. And in regards to your ending statement, I’ve already told you mag sorc is my 3rd most played class so clearly you cannot read properly.

What platform do you play on? Just curious.

MetalHead4x4 · September 2018

DuskMarine wrote: »

MetalHead4x4 wrote: »

"Sorc, you do not have to be that good to do well on."

In Vivec you have to be good, there's no Sorc easy mode in Vivec if you're not a 50k magicka shield stacker you're gonna have a damn hard time. I know, I play it. Compared to Stam, Magicka classes (especially Sorc) are weak right now. I wish I could eat half the damage physically that Stam classes do magically. There's no comparison.

yet mages fury spam rules all practically cause thats all anyone spams. shield stackers use shields when their about to die making them god for the duration. cc, mages fury spam meanwhile procing frag almost nonstop till the passive nukes you. the only time i see decent sorc play is in sotha thats where you have to actually know how to play. vivec all people do is spam nearly.

Fury does minimal damage, it only affects targets below 20% health and it often doesn't kill them. In fact, on low health NB's if the game reads that the NB is gonna dodge the next attack, Fury doesn't go off. You can literally hit it 5 times and nothing happens, in that time the NB can heal and basically try and nuke you again with a burst combo.

DuskMarine · September 2018

MetalHead4x4 wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

MetalHead4x4 wrote: »

"Sorc, you do not have to be that good to do well on."

In Vivec you have to be good, there's no Sorc easy mode in Vivec if you're not a 50k magicka shield stacker you're gonna have a damn hard time. I know, I play it. Compared to Stam, Magicka classes (especially Sorc) are weak right now. I wish I could eat half the damage physically that Stam classes do magically. There's no comparison.

yet mages fury spam rules all practically cause thats all anyone spams. shield stackers use shields when their about to die making them god for the duration. cc, mages fury spam meanwhile procing frag almost nonstop till the passive nukes you. the only time i see decent sorc play is in sotha thats where you have to actually know how to play. vivec all people do is spam nearly.

Fury does minimal damage, it only affects targets below 20% health and it often doesn't kill them. In fact, on low health NB's if the game reads that the NB is gonna dodge the next attack, Fury doesn't go off. You can literally hit it 5 times and nothing happens, in that time the NB can heal and basically try and nuke you again with a burst combo.

i always watch sorcs just spam mages fury and frag procs from the fury spam. its irritating and you almost kill them they pop a stupid high shield. kindve why ive been gravitating to sotha more. one thing i want buffed is stam sorc before mag sorc cause hey only if 3 abilities can become useful to stamina >_> sure mag needs some things but stam has crap all nearly.