Nicko_Lps wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Shield is the main issue of why sorc can't compete in PvP.

Shield stacking Harness and hardened need to be removed, because it's jail sorc need to go out.

DDuke wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

By the way when people say stuff like "Sorcs have the highest burst in the game...", you guys know that's a big, fat LIE, don't you?

Meanwhile, there are Nightblades running around who can hit you with an Assassin's Will that does 20K damage. That's 20,000 HP off your health bar just from one proc! It's not even an ultimate!!!

Of course, some wise guy is going to say "Well, NBs can only do that kind of damage because of all the debuffs they put on you..." SO WHAT!?! When are Sorcs going to get some crippling debuffs attached to Curse or Cage or whatever?

I'll just copy paste this here:

Using same setup on both characters.

Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery

Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc

NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack

So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst

and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst

Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238

Everything accounted for, sorcs do have the highest burst in game (i.e. damage that lands within 1 GCD).


Note that this is not even including Fury, or Flame Reach as the CC (which you'd probably prefer over Rune Cage now).

That is not even including the ultimate cost. Let's not forgot NB have a 4 button combo ( 2*LA - incap - merciless ) while sorc need to press 6 button ( comet - 2*la - CC [cage/clench] - curse -frag )

Sure, not disputing it takes more time to setup sorc burst.

It however still deals more damage within one global cooldown than nightblade one (i.e. maximum burst).

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

By the way when people say stuff like "Sorcs have the highest burst in the game...", you guys know that's a big, fat LIE, don't you?

Meanwhile, there are Nightblades running around who can hit you with an Assassin's Will that does 20K damage. That's 20,000 HP off your health bar just from one proc! It's not even an ultimate!!!

Of course, some wise guy is going to say "Well, NBs can only do that kind of damage because of all the debuffs they put on you..." SO WHAT!?! When are Sorcs going to get some crippling debuffs attached to Curse or Cage or whatever?

I'll just copy paste this here:

Using same setup on both characters.

Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery

Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc

NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack

So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst

and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst

Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238

Everything accounted for, sorcs do have the highest burst in game (i.e. damage that lands within 1 GCD).


Note that this is not even including Fury, or Flame Reach as the CC (which you'd probably prefer over Rune Cage now).

You intentionally forgot guranteed crit , impale & flame reach + sneak and minor berseker bonus for NB ? Isnt it ?
I hate bad numbers.

Guaranteed crit on what, light attack? And what are you even talking about?

Minor Berserk is factored in (you can read it on the NB buffs) and Incap is used as CC in order to actually land the Merciless (close to) within one global cooldown like sorc burst.

If you add in Flame Reach & Impale to the mix it takes 3 global cooldowns to land the whole "burst", which means 2 seconds for your opponent (assuming you land the first LA+CC with Flame Reach) for your opponent to react.


I hate people who don't understand game mechanics but still proceed to make ignorant posts on the forums.

This isn't true at all.

EVERYONE with a half brain Block the meteor.

Sorc ultimate burst is the weakest you can find because people block everything (only curse is unblocable) and block reduce the damage to nothing.


Your "sorc have the best burst" was true when rune cage made the burst 100% uncounterable, but this isn't true anymore.


If you get hit by a meteor ultimate sorc burst combo, you are a noob

Eh, I could say the same about getting hit by Incap... after having played NB for over 4 years it's pretty predictable when people are going to use it, and thus it becomes easy to dodge (and then you dodge *all* the burst from NB).

Leap is also easily blocked (or even just made to "miss" by moving fast enough), Soul Assault easily blocked & then cloaked away. Every ultimate has counters.


Nothing prevents you from using DBOS on a Sorc btw, if you want a more "sudden" burst. Especially in noCP.

When you use shooting star on your stamblade ill use DBoS.
Since then lets continue amazing math that proves sorc needs desperately another nerf because before summerset and probably before that as well you are constantly on forums whining about magsorcs

Actually I think sorc needs buffs in the mobility department (Streak/BoL should remove snares/roots) and I think it'd help build diversity if a skill like Encase (or something else) had a DoT portion.

Apart from that, I feel sorc is fairly balanced at the moment. Just like other classes, bad players struggle to kill better players & good ones are dangerous. Nothing new there.


I just don't think they need more burst and that assessment is backed by math when cross-referencing to other classes. And I definitely don't think shields need buffs.

Ofcourse, magsorc is balanced when my curse+reach+frags deal exactly the same damage as 1 bow proc after soul harvest. Its all balanced right? MAX dmg from magblades was 15k, from stamblades 11k.(bow proc)

If your Curse+Reach+Frags deal same damage as one Merciless proc, that's a problem with your build.

With both characters using the exact same gear:
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Reach 4945+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+4%[Altmer Passive])=5538

---

31 423 total tooltip burst

vs

Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263 total tooltip burst


That burst combination of sorc deals 41,1% more damage than Merciless alone, which would indicate you're playing a build with an average of 3425 less spell damage (and/or 34k less magicka) than the NB.

Or that your assessment of sorc burst rotation vs Merciless alone isn't as accurate as you think.

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Your mathematics is from an imaginary world, sorc will NEVER kill a brained player without lich+shacle/necro. Will manage to kill only scrubs a good player will OoM you with that build in 1m of duel and rekt you in 2 sec as magsorc dies in less than 2 sec without shields.

Cool. Is that why all the sorcs in their Lich Shackle/Necro setups are QQ'ing about being weak? I'd suggest trying out Meditate if you're having sustain issues, perhaps with Cyrodiil's Light off bar (that still lets you stack up a lot of dmg).

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Bad players always struggle to kill good players and fail. Ive met 2 nightblades(stam+mag) that do not belong to the whineblade category. They have all the tools to OoM me and burst me down like a fly. Now, nightblades have all these amazing tools just because the vast majority of them CANT play their class properly.

That magsorc vs nb above is open world, no LoS no floors no teleports. In case of LoS or teleports 1st to 2nd floor nb is 100% unkillable from 2 sorcs, not just 1.

Sounds like you just died to a better player. Sh*t happens.

If vast majority of stamblades aren't capable of that then it sounds to me like a balanced class - just like sorcs now that vast majority of them aren't capable of killing good players.

Only one of those classes is QQ'ing on the forums though. I guess it's rough for many to get carried by Rune Cage and then have that taken away, but I'm sure people will adapt and just realize they need to get better instead of having the entire class raised up in strength (simultaneously making those who were already strong on sorc overpowered).

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Shield is the main issue of why sorc can't compete in PvP.

Shield stacking Harness and hardened need to be removed, because it's jail sorc need to go out.

DDuke wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

By the way when people say stuff like "Sorcs have the highest burst in the game...", you guys know that's a big, fat LIE, don't you?

Meanwhile, there are Nightblades running around who can hit you with an Assassin's Will that does 20K damage. That's 20,000 HP off your health bar just from one proc! It's not even an ultimate!!!

Of course, some wise guy is going to say "Well, NBs can only do that kind of damage because of all the debuffs they put on you..." SO WHAT!?! When are Sorcs going to get some crippling debuffs attached to Curse or Cage or whatever?

I'll just copy paste this here:

Using same setup on both characters.

Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery

Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc

NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack

So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst

and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst

Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238

Everything accounted for, sorcs do have the highest burst in game (i.e. damage that lands within 1 GCD).


Note that this is not even including Fury, or Flame Reach as the CC (which you'd probably prefer over Rune Cage now).

That is not even including the ultimate cost. Let's not forgot NB have a 4 button combo ( 2*LA - incap - merciless ) while sorc need to press 6 button ( comet - 2*la - CC [cage/clench] - curse -frag )

Sure, not disputing it takes more time to setup sorc burst.

It however still deals more damage within one global cooldown than nightblade one (i.e. maximum burst).

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

By the way when people say stuff like "Sorcs have the highest burst in the game...", you guys know that's a big, fat LIE, don't you?

Meanwhile, there are Nightblades running around who can hit you with an Assassin's Will that does 20K damage. That's 20,000 HP off your health bar just from one proc! It's not even an ultimate!!!

Of course, some wise guy is going to say "Well, NBs can only do that kind of damage because of all the debuffs they put on you..." SO WHAT!?! When are Sorcs going to get some crippling debuffs attached to Curse or Cage or whatever?

I'll just copy paste this here:

Using same setup on both characters.

Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery

Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc

NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack

So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst

and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst

Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238

Everything accounted for, sorcs do have the highest burst in game (i.e. damage that lands within 1 GCD).


Note that this is not even including Fury, or Flame Reach as the CC (which you'd probably prefer over Rune Cage now).

You intentionally forgot guranteed crit , impale & flame reach + sneak and minor berseker bonus for NB ? Isnt it ?
I hate bad numbers.

Guaranteed crit on what, light attack? And what are you even talking about?

Minor Berserk is factored in (you can read it on the NB buffs) and Incap is used as CC in order to actually land the Merciless (close to) within one global cooldown like sorc burst.

If you add in Flame Reach & Impale to the mix it takes 3 global cooldowns to land the whole "burst", which means 2 seconds for your opponent (assuming you land the first LA+CC with Flame Reach) for your opponent to react.


I hate people who don't understand game mechanics but still proceed to make ignorant posts on the forums.

This isn't true at all.

EVERYONE with a half brain Block the meteor.

Sorc ultimate burst is the weakest you can find because people block everything (only curse is unblocable) and block reduce the damage to nothing.


Your "sorc have the best burst" was true when rune cage made the burst 100% uncounterable, but this isn't true anymore.


If you get hit by a meteor ultimate sorc burst combo, you are a noob

Eh, I could say the same about getting hit by Incap... after having played NB for over 4 years it's pretty predictable when people are going to use it, and thus it becomes easy to dodge (and then you dodge *all* the burst from NB).

Leap is also easily blocked (or even just made to "miss" by moving fast enough), Soul Assault easily blocked & then cloaked away. Every ultimate has counters.


Nothing prevents you from using DBOS on a Sorc btw, if you want a more "sudden" burst. Especially in noCP.

False, NB can hit with incap + bow, they have the possibility. Sorc doesn't have it with meteor.

Use incap -> Fear -> bow. For Dk use Fozzilise if you don't want have ur leap blocked, or use it in melee range.

"Every ultimate has counter" is different from : "Everyone counter ur ultimate easely without a way for to you make it land.

Well hit me up in game & try to land that on me. You have my @ username.

I'd be more than happy to demonstrate how easy it is to dodge Incap and/or CC break fear+dodge Assassin's Will. Or how you can simply outrange fossilize and/or CC Break+Block the Leap.


I already recorded a video (back in October last year) showcasing how easy it is to dodge fear->Assassin's Will, but I can make a more comprehensive one with more abilities.

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

By the way when people say stuff like "Sorcs have the highest burst in the game...", you guys know that's a big, fat LIE, don't you?

Meanwhile, there are Nightblades running around who can hit you with an Assassin's Will that does 20K damage. That's 20,000 HP off your health bar just from one proc! It's not even an ultimate!!!

Of course, some wise guy is going to say "Well, NBs can only do that kind of damage because of all the debuffs they put on you..." SO WHAT!?! When are Sorcs going to get some crippling debuffs attached to Curse or Cage or whatever?

I'll just copy paste this here:

Using same setup on both characters.

Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery

Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc

NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack

So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst

and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst

Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238

Everything accounted for, sorcs do have the highest burst in game (i.e. damage that lands within 1 GCD).


Note that this is not even including Fury, or Flame Reach as the CC (which you'd probably prefer over Rune Cage now).

Shadowy disguise guarantees a crit. Passives increase your crit damage. Nobody really plays Altmer on NB, it's more like Dunmer which also buffs NB light attacks. My pvp main is nb btw. It's just beyond reality to say that sorc has more burst than nb. I wouldn't laugh even if it was a joke.

+3% Flame Damage
-4% Max Magicka

You can calculate with those modifiers, but it's not changing the outcome much (if at all). That sorc has more burst than NB is a mathematical fact. Is it easier to land than NB burst? Perhaps not, but atleast you (almost) always land the Curse portion of burst, where as entire NB burst can be dodged (and even if you do get hit by Incap, you can CC Break+dodge roll before Assassin's Will hits you).

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

More damage.

Better sustain.

Highest burst in the game, and yet still wants more damage. Magsorcs are never satisfied lol

If you think Magsorc has the highest burst ingame you never played a magblade or a stamblade.
Or you play it and you belong to the category of whineblades that constantly whine for buffs.

DDuke wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

By the way when people say stuff like "Sorcs have the highest burst in the game...", you guys know that's a big, fat LIE, don't you?

Meanwhile, there are Nightblades running around who can hit you with an Assassin's Will that does 20K damage. That's 20,000 HP off your health bar just from one proc! It's not even an ultimate!!!

Of course, some wise guy is going to say "Well, NBs can only do that kind of damage because of all the debuffs they put on you..." SO WHAT!?! When are Sorcs going to get some crippling debuffs attached to Curse or Cage or whatever?

I'll just copy paste this here:

Using same setup on both characters.

Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery

Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc

NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack

So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst

and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst

Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238

Everything accounted for, sorcs do have the highest burst in game (i.e. damage that lands within 1 GCD).


Note that this is not even including Fury, or Flame Reach as the CC (which you'd probably prefer over Rune Cage now).

There we go again, Decimus and his magic numbers out of nowhere.
Pre summerset your calculations on sorc burst was like 110k, how come and it dropped now?
I will never forget your calculations of cage doing 9k damage on players. Some serious math there bro. GG

PS
Please duel me one day with engine guardian/necro/destro mastery. Please? I beg you.

I've explained how I got the numbers, gear & buffs used. Same setups on both classes. Feel free to test it out yourself

Also, those numbers are for noCP (which is why you see a difference compared to what I theorycrafted pre-Summerset).


Not my fault people play trashy sustain setups and then QQ about not having damage.

If everysingle top player play a "sustain" build MAYBE it's because sorc is unsustainable because it's the most exepensive class to play and the WORST to sustain ?

Stop acting like sorc have the choice, they don't.

Even me playing as non meta need 2.3k mag recovery + minor magicka steal to sustain, it's what's happen when you don't get carried by Harness.

Sorc are forced to run a dedicated 5 pieces regen set + Light armor + regen race + Harness magicka back carry to sustain.

Or maybe it's because people get stuck with the concept of "meta" and don't really experiment.

But you don't have to take my word for it, go ask someone like Derra about how well Cyrodiil's Light+Meditate works for sustain.

There's also another trick for practically infinite magicka I don't want to disclose here as I promised not to talk about it when I first heard about it from someone.


My advise: go experiment with not only different sets, but different abilities as well.

DDuke wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Shield is the main issue of why sorc can't compete in PvP.

Shield stacking Harness and hardened need to be removed, because it's jail sorc need to go out.

DDuke wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

By the way when people say stuff like "Sorcs have the highest burst in the game...", you guys know that's a big, fat LIE, don't you?

Meanwhile, there are Nightblades running around who can hit you with an Assassin's Will that does 20K damage. That's 20,000 HP off your health bar just from one proc! It's not even an ultimate!!!

Of course, some wise guy is going to say "Well, NBs can only do that kind of damage because of all the debuffs they put on you..." SO WHAT!?! When are Sorcs going to get some crippling debuffs attached to Curse or Cage or whatever?

I'll just copy paste this here:

Using same setup on both characters.

Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery

Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc

NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack

So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst

and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst

Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238

Everything accounted for, sorcs do have the highest burst in game (i.e. damage that lands within 1 GCD).


Note that this is not even including Fury, or Flame Reach as the CC (which you'd probably prefer over Rune Cage now).

That is not even including the ultimate cost. Let's not forgot NB have a 4 button combo ( 2*LA - incap - merciless ) while sorc need to press 6 button ( comet - 2*la - CC [cage/clench] - curse -frag )

Sure, not disputing it takes more time to setup sorc burst.

It however still deals more damage within one global cooldown than nightblade one (i.e. maximum burst).

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

By the way when people say stuff like "Sorcs have the highest burst in the game...", you guys know that's a big, fat LIE, don't you?

Meanwhile, there are Nightblades running around who can hit you with an Assassin's Will that does 20K damage. That's 20,000 HP off your health bar just from one proc! It's not even an ultimate!!!

Of course, some wise guy is going to say "Well, NBs can only do that kind of damage because of all the debuffs they put on you..." SO WHAT!?! When are Sorcs going to get some crippling debuffs attached to Curse or Cage or whatever?

I'll just copy paste this here:

Using same setup on both characters.

Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery

Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc

NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack

So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst

and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst

Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238

Everything accounted for, sorcs do have the highest burst in game (i.e. damage that lands within 1 GCD).


Note that this is not even including Fury, or Flame Reach as the CC (which you'd probably prefer over Rune Cage now).

You intentionally forgot guranteed crit , impale & flame reach + sneak and minor berseker bonus for NB ? Isnt it ?
I hate bad numbers.

Guaranteed crit on what, light attack? And what are you even talking about?

Minor Berserk is factored in (you can read it on the NB buffs) and Incap is used as CC in order to actually land the Merciless (close to) within one global cooldown like sorc burst.

If you add in Flame Reach & Impale to the mix it takes 3 global cooldowns to land the whole "burst", which means 2 seconds for your opponent (assuming you land the first LA+CC with Flame Reach) for your opponent to react.


I hate people who don't understand game mechanics but still proceed to make ignorant posts on the forums.

This isn't true at all.

EVERYONE with a half brain Block the meteor.

Sorc ultimate burst is the weakest you can find because people block everything (only curse is unblocable) and block reduce the damage to nothing.


Your "sorc have the best burst" was true when rune cage made the burst 100% uncounterable, but this isn't true anymore.


If you get hit by a meteor ultimate sorc burst combo, you are a noob

Eh, I could say the same about getting hit by Incap... after having played NB for over 4 years it's pretty predictable when people are going to use it, and thus it becomes easy to dodge (and then you dodge *all* the burst from NB).

Leap is also easily blocked (or even just made to "miss" by moving fast enough), Soul Assault easily blocked & then cloaked away. Every ultimate has counters.


Nothing prevents you from using DBOS on a Sorc btw, if you want a more "sudden" burst. Especially in noCP.

When you use shooting star on your stamblade ill use DBoS.
Since then lets continue amazing math that proves sorc needs desperately another nerf because before summerset and probably before that as well you are constantly on forums whining about magsorcs

Actually I think sorc needs buffs in the mobility department (Streak/BoL should remove snares/roots) and I think it'd help build diversity if a skill like Encase (or something else) had a DoT portion.

Apart from that, I feel sorc is fairly balanced at the moment. Just like other classes, bad players struggle to kill better players & good ones are dangerous. Nothing new there.


I just don't think they need more burst and that assessment is backed by math when cross-referencing to other classes. And I definitely don't think shields need buffs.

Ofcourse, magsorc is balanced when my curse+reach+frags deal exactly the same damage as 1 bow proc after soul harvest. Its all balanced right? MAX dmg from magblades was 15k, from stamblades 11k.(bow proc)

If your Curse+Reach+Frags deal same damage as one Merciless proc, that's a problem with your build.

With both characters using the exact same gear:
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Reach 4945+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+4%[Altmer Passive])=5538

---

31 423 total tooltip burst

vs

Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263 total tooltip burst


That burst combination of sorc deals 41,1% more damage than Merciless alone, which would indicate you're playing a build with an average of 3425 less spell damage (and/or 34k less magicka) than the NB.

Or that your assessment of sorc burst rotation vs Merciless alone isn't as accurate as you think.

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Your mathematics is from an imaginary world, sorc will NEVER kill a brained player without lich+shacle/necro. Will manage to kill only scrubs a good player will OoM you with that build in 1m of duel and rekt you in 2 sec as magsorc dies in less than 2 sec without shields.

Cool. Is that why all the sorcs in their Lich Shackle/Necro setups are QQ'ing about being weak? I'd suggest trying out Meditate if you're having sustain issues, perhaps with Cyrodiil's Light off bar (that still lets you stack up a lot of dmg).

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Bad players always struggle to kill good players and fail. Ive met 2 nightblades(stam+mag) that do not belong to the whineblade category. They have all the tools to OoM me and burst me down like a fly. Now, nightblades have all these amazing tools just because the vast majority of them CANT play their class properly.

That magsorc vs nb above is open world, no LoS no floors no teleports. In case of LoS or teleports 1st to 2nd floor nb is 100% unkillable from 2 sorcs, not just 1.

Sounds like you just died to a better player. Sh*t happens.

If vast majority of stamblades aren't capable of that then it sounds to me like a balanced class - just like sorcs now that vast majority of them aren't capable of killing good players.

Only one of those classes is QQ'ing on the forums though. I guess it's rough for many to get carried by Rune Cage and then have that taken away, but I'm sure people will adapt and just realize they need to get better instead of having the entire class raised up in strength (simultaneously making those who were already strong on sorc overpowered).

My frags+curse deal around 4.5k ea. to 90% of players i meet while my reach depends, usually does around 4k or less. That makes us less than the 15k bow proc ive had.
Stop these tooltip stuff, it works alot differently in cyrodiil you come across monster mistakes like 4-5 months ago you where claiming cage does 9k damage.

Can you 1v1 and stop during the duel to meditate as a magsorc? Are you really playing ESO and really have your magsorc still? Or when you escape a zerg you stop to meditate after 4 streaks rekt ur whole magica pool?

You cried as hard as anybody could in forums, you and more whineblades ofc for the meteor+cage combo. While your cloak supattack+incap remains BALANCED right? No timing, no nothing just cloak sup attack+lA+incap. Again and again and you complain for sorcs that have to time down: Curse+reach+frag+fury WHILE their shields are still up otherwise they go down like flies. So fyi a sorc times down 6 skills to be as efficient as your stamblade is with 3 and lets not forget that you roll the 4 out of 6.


Better player?
When my BOTH of my shields get bursted down before i apply them YOU think a better player does that or an un-balanced DAMOOGE + that stupid shade that cuts down my dmg 15% ? Get serious man, exit forums play abit with your magsorc and duel me with that sorc setup of urs + ur meditate.

SilverWF wrote: »

Personally me would be happy if Surge would receive a buff to Heavy Attack. Maybe not 40% as DKs have, but probably 20%

I would be happy if Surge receive the siphoning strikes treatment with a lesser magnitude or smaller efficiency since sorc has cost reduction passives

Emmagoldman wrote: »

Sorc is generally balanced but needs a tad bit of love in terms of how it can be enjoyably played. Sorc was always most rewarded when being forced to line up burst and kite.

I would like to see crystal frags have the stun back at its current level of dmg and a frag with the previuos dmg without the stun as the kther morph

Streak should have a slight increase in the range of streak and a slight reduction in cost.

otherwise its fine

A very sensible post.
In full agreement that streak should cost less and frags get it's stun back. I think everyone is in universal agreement.

Marshall1289 wrote: »

As usual this topic turned in to nightblade's and sorc's fighting about numbers in a PvP environment, it's one aspect of the game. The OP was looking for ideas, these aren't ideas, they're disputes.

This is exactly why I can't stand these posts, and why it's embarrassing as a sorc myself. Because other sorcs can't talk about thier ideas or class without pointing fingers at another class, and going "but (insert class) has this and that!"
If you want to talk about sorcs, why the need to drag nightblades, templars, or anything else into it? It's unreal...

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Shield is the main issue of why sorc can't compete in PvP.

Shield stacking Harness and hardened need to be removed, because it's jail sorc need to go out.

DDuke wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

By the way when people say stuff like "Sorcs have the highest burst in the game...", you guys know that's a big, fat LIE, don't you?

Meanwhile, there are Nightblades running around who can hit you with an Assassin's Will that does 20K damage. That's 20,000 HP off your health bar just from one proc! It's not even an ultimate!!!

Of course, some wise guy is going to say "Well, NBs can only do that kind of damage because of all the debuffs they put on you..." SO WHAT!?! When are Sorcs going to get some crippling debuffs attached to Curse or Cage or whatever?

I'll just copy paste this here:

Using same setup on both characters.

Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery

Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc

NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack

So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst

and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst

Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238

Everything accounted for, sorcs do have the highest burst in game (i.e. damage that lands within 1 GCD).


Note that this is not even including Fury, or Flame Reach as the CC (which you'd probably prefer over Rune Cage now).

That is not even including the ultimate cost. Let's not forgot NB have a 4 button combo ( 2*LA - incap - merciless ) while sorc need to press 6 button ( comet - 2*la - CC [cage/clench] - curse -frag )

Sure, not disputing it takes more time to setup sorc burst.

It however still deals more damage within one global cooldown than nightblade one (i.e. maximum burst).

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

By the way when people say stuff like "Sorcs have the highest burst in the game...", you guys know that's a big, fat LIE, don't you?

Meanwhile, there are Nightblades running around who can hit you with an Assassin's Will that does 20K damage. That's 20,000 HP off your health bar just from one proc! It's not even an ultimate!!!

Of course, some wise guy is going to say "Well, NBs can only do that kind of damage because of all the debuffs they put on you..." SO WHAT!?! When are Sorcs going to get some crippling debuffs attached to Curse or Cage or whatever?

I'll just copy paste this here:

Using same setup on both characters.

Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery

Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc

NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack

So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst

and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst

Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238

Everything accounted for, sorcs do have the highest burst in game (i.e. damage that lands within 1 GCD).


Note that this is not even including Fury, or Flame Reach as the CC (which you'd probably prefer over Rune Cage now).

You intentionally forgot guranteed crit , impale & flame reach + sneak and minor berseker bonus for NB ? Isnt it ?
I hate bad numbers.

Guaranteed crit on what, light attack? And what are you even talking about?

Minor Berserk is factored in (you can read it on the NB buffs) and Incap is used as CC in order to actually land the Merciless (close to) within one global cooldown like sorc burst.

If you add in Flame Reach & Impale to the mix it takes 3 global cooldowns to land the whole "burst", which means 2 seconds for your opponent (assuming you land the first LA+CC with Flame Reach) for your opponent to react.


I hate people who don't understand game mechanics but still proceed to make ignorant posts on the forums.

This isn't true at all.

EVERYONE with a half brain Block the meteor.

Sorc ultimate burst is the weakest you can find because people block everything (only curse is unblocable) and block reduce the damage to nothing.


Your "sorc have the best burst" was true when rune cage made the burst 100% uncounterable, but this isn't true anymore.


If you get hit by a meteor ultimate sorc burst combo, you are a noob

Eh, I could say the same about getting hit by Incap... after having played NB for over 4 years it's pretty predictable when people are going to use it, and thus it becomes easy to dodge (and then you dodge *all* the burst from NB).

Leap is also easily blocked (or even just made to "miss" by moving fast enough), Soul Assault easily blocked & then cloaked away. Every ultimate has counters.


Nothing prevents you from using DBOS on a Sorc btw, if you want a more "sudden" burst. Especially in noCP.

When you use shooting star on your stamblade ill use DBoS.
Since then lets continue amazing math that proves sorc needs desperately another nerf because before summerset and probably before that as well you are constantly on forums whining about magsorcs

Actually I think sorc needs buffs in the mobility department (Streak/BoL should remove snares/roots) and I think it'd help build diversity if a skill like Encase (or something else) had a DoT portion.

Apart from that, I feel sorc is fairly balanced at the moment. Just like other classes, bad players struggle to kill better players & good ones are dangerous. Nothing new there.


I just don't think they need more burst and that assessment is backed by math when cross-referencing to other classes. And I definitely don't think shields need buffs.

Ofcourse, magsorc is balanced when my curse+reach+frags deal exactly the same damage as 1 bow proc after soul harvest. Its all balanced right? MAX dmg from magblades was 15k, from stamblades 11k.(bow proc)

If your Curse+Reach+Frags deal same damage as one Merciless proc, that's a problem with your build.

With both characters using the exact same gear:
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Reach 4945+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+4%[Altmer Passive])=5538

---

31 423 total tooltip burst

vs

Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263 total tooltip burst


That burst combination of sorc deals 41,1% more damage than Merciless alone, which would indicate you're playing a build with an average of 3425 less spell damage (and/or 34k less magicka) than the NB.

Or that your assessment of sorc burst rotation vs Merciless alone isn't as accurate as you think.

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Your mathematics is from an imaginary world, sorc will NEVER kill a brained player without lich+shacle/necro. Will manage to kill only scrubs a good player will OoM you with that build in 1m of duel and rekt you in 2 sec as magsorc dies in less than 2 sec without shields.

Cool. Is that why all the sorcs in their Lich Shackle/Necro setups are QQ'ing about being weak? I'd suggest trying out Meditate if you're having sustain issues, perhaps with Cyrodiil's Light off bar (that still lets you stack up a lot of dmg).

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Bad players always struggle to kill good players and fail. Ive met 2 nightblades(stam+mag) that do not belong to the whineblade category. They have all the tools to OoM me and burst me down like a fly. Now, nightblades have all these amazing tools just because the vast majority of them CANT play their class properly.

That magsorc vs nb above is open world, no LoS no floors no teleports. In case of LoS or teleports 1st to 2nd floor nb is 100% unkillable from 2 sorcs, not just 1.

Sounds like you just died to a better player. Sh*t happens.

If vast majority of stamblades aren't capable of that then it sounds to me like a balanced class - just like sorcs now that vast majority of them aren't capable of killing good players.

Only one of those classes is QQ'ing on the forums though. I guess it's rough for many to get carried by Rune Cage and then have that taken away, but I'm sure people will adapt and just realize they need to get better instead of having the entire class raised up in strength (simultaneously making those who were already strong on sorc overpowered).

My frags+curse deal around 4.5k ea. to 90% of players i meet while my reach depends, usually does around 4k or less. That makes us less than the 15k bow proc ive had.
Stop these tooltip stuff, it works alot differently in cyrodiil you come across monster mistakes like 4-5 months ago you where claiming cage does 9k damage.

So it clearly seems like I need to explain what "tooltip burst" means. Tooltip burst is the damage you'd have on a zero mitigation target after all buffs. This is the best way of calculating burst as it removes variables and hypotethicals from the equation (i.e. you don't have to wonder "hmm, was the target I hit wearing tankier gear when I played X character instead" etc). It's a pretty simple concept.

And I did get 9k tooltip damage (closer to 10k) on Cage back then:


Also if you're only dealing 4,5k damage with Frags/Reach and on the same target you deal 15k with Merciless, that's a problem with your sorc build. Simple as that.

Here's what I've been hit for in this patch (in noCP!) all while trying to burst through shields:

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Can you 1v1 and stop during the duel to meditate as a magsorc? Are you really playing ESO and really have your magsorc still? Or when you escape a zerg you stop to meditate after 4 streaks rekt ur whole magica pool?

Of course you can.

There's multiple tools in the sorc kit that allow you to use Meditate without getting interrupted (Streak, Defensive Rune, Mines...) and if you get interrupted with Cyrodiil's Light on you get a free shield (since the set makes next cast free after interrupt).

That skill is so strong it works even on less mobile classes without passive defenses like Defensive Rune/Fear Trap/Mines/Cloak/Streak - it's become a must have even on my mDK & magplar regardless of whether I play BGs or Cyrodiil.

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

You cried as hard as anybody could in forums, you and more whineblades ofc for the meteor+cage combo. While your cloak supattack+incap remains BALANCED right? No timing, no nothing just cloak sup attack+lA+incap. Again and again and you complain for sorcs that have to time down: Curse+reach+frag+fury WHILE their shields are still up otherwise they go down like flies. So fyi a sorc times down 6 skills to be as efficient as your stamblade is with 3 and lets not forget that you roll the 4 out of 6.

Yep, for a reason it seems. All the people who got carried by it are now complaining about sorc being weak as they can't associate their lack of talent with their bad performance.

"It's the class, it's not me!"
Classic.


If you think stamblade (or any of the other classes) is so easy, go and play one (preferably a medium one, not heavy TK+Fury+Legion overperforming bs).

Eagerly awaiting for the 1vX montage. I'm yet to see any of the sorcs who QQ about their class do any better on any other class.

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Better player?
When my BOTH of my shields get bursted down before i apply them YOU think a better player does that or an un-balanced DAMOOGE + that stupid shade that cuts down my dmg 15% ? Get serious man, exit forums play abit with your magsorc and duel me with that sorc setup of urs + ur meditate.

Eh, that just sounds like you got rekt.

Shields aren't supposed to be full on invulnerability - that's why there's multiple combos that go through them if you manage to land everything.

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

By the way when people say stuff like "Sorcs have the highest burst in the game...", you guys know that's a big, fat LIE, don't you?

Meanwhile, there are Nightblades running around who can hit you with an Assassin's Will that does 20K damage. That's 20,000 HP off your health bar just from one proc! It's not even an ultimate!!!

Of course, some wise guy is going to say "Well, NBs can only do that kind of damage because of all the debuffs they put on you..." SO WHAT!?! When are Sorcs going to get some crippling debuffs attached to Curse or Cage or whatever?

I'll just copy paste this here:

Using same setup on both characters.

Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery

Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc

NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack

So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst

and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst

Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238

Everything accounted for, sorcs do have the highest burst in game (i.e. damage that lands within 1 GCD).


Note that this is not even including Fury, or Flame Reach as the CC (which you'd probably prefer over Rune Cage now).

Shadowy disguise guarantees a crit. Passives increase your crit damage. Nobody really plays Altmer on NB, it's more like Dunmer which also buffs NB light attacks. My pvp main is nb btw. It's just beyond reality to say that sorc has more burst than nb. I wouldn't laugh even if it was a joke.

+3% Flame Damage
-4% Max Magicka

You can calculate with those modifiers, but it's not changing the outcome much (if at all). That sorc has more burst than NB is a mathematical fact. Is it easier to land than NB burst? Perhaps not, but atleast you (almost) always land the Curse portion of burst, where as entire NB burst can be dodged (and even if you do get hit by Incap, you can CC Break+dodge roll before Assassin's Will hits you).

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

More damage.

Better sustain.

Highest burst in the game, and yet still wants more damage. Magsorcs are never satisfied lol

If you think Magsorc has the highest burst ingame you never played a magblade or a stamblade.
Or you play it and you belong to the category of whineblades that constantly whine for buffs.

DDuke wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

By the way when people say stuff like "Sorcs have the highest burst in the game...", you guys know that's a big, fat LIE, don't you?

Meanwhile, there are Nightblades running around who can hit you with an Assassin's Will that does 20K damage. That's 20,000 HP off your health bar just from one proc! It's not even an ultimate!!!

Of course, some wise guy is going to say "Well, NBs can only do that kind of damage because of all the debuffs they put on you..." SO WHAT!?! When are Sorcs going to get some crippling debuffs attached to Curse or Cage or whatever?

I'll just copy paste this here:

Using same setup on both characters.

Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery

Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc

NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack

So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst

and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst

Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238

Everything accounted for, sorcs do have the highest burst in game (i.e. damage that lands within 1 GCD).


Note that this is not even including Fury, or Flame Reach as the CC (which you'd probably prefer over Rune Cage now).

There we go again, Decimus and his magic numbers out of nowhere.
Pre summerset your calculations on sorc burst was like 110k, how come and it dropped now?
I will never forget your calculations of cage doing 9k damage on players. Some serious math there bro. GG

PS
Please duel me one day with engine guardian/necro/destro mastery. Please? I beg you.

I've explained how I got the numbers, gear & buffs used. Same setups on both classes. Feel free to test it out yourself

Also, those numbers are for noCP (which is why you see a difference compared to what I theorycrafted pre-Summerset).


Not my fault people play trashy sustain setups and then QQ about not having damage.

If everysingle top player play a "sustain" build MAYBE it's because sorc is unsustainable because it's the most exepensive class to play and the WORST to sustain ?

Stop acting like sorc have the choice, they don't.

Even me playing as non meta need 2.3k mag recovery + minor magicka steal to sustain, it's what's happen when you don't get carried by Harness.

Sorc are forced to run a dedicated 5 pieces regen set + Light armor + regen race + Harness magicka back carry to sustain.

Or maybe it's because people get stuck with the concept of "meta" and don't really experiment.

But you don't have to take my word for it, go ask someone like Derra about how well Cyrodiil's Light+Meditate works for sustain.

There's also another trick for practically infinite magicka I don't want to disclose here as I promised not to talk about it when I first heard about it from someone.


My advise: go experiment with not only different sets, but different abilities as well.

Cyrodiil's Light + meditate ? Really ? So you are telling me to not use a dedicated pure magicka regen 5 pieces set to use a 5 pieces set that only work with 1 skill, the one you need to spam for SUSTAIN?

You don't get it. Other classes doesn't need to have a dedicated 5 pieces set or invest tons of regen to be able to sustain. Having Cyrodil Light to use meditate (which will not work outnumbered) instead of lich isn't resloving sorc sutain issues.

Tell me ur not speaking about the Defensive Position Set trick ?

You don't have to use Cyrodiil's Light to sustain with Meditate, but it works nicely on a magicka build. I use Meditate without any set that would synergize with the skill on my full damage stamblade (yes, you actually can't sustain full dmg builds on other classes either without slotting sustain skills...)


And no, I wasn't talking about Asylum S&B+Shield Discipline & Defensive Stance spam, though that works nicely as well (if you're fighting ranged builds).

Aedaryl wrote: »

You didn't unserstood my point about meteor and other ultimates.

With other ultimate, you can bait people and br skilled to be sure it will land. With meteor, you can't because of the HUGE telegraph.

The ceiling for meteor, is extremely low, while the ceiling for incap or dawnbreaker is high, that's the difference. A halfbrain player will always 100% counter the meteor, while other ultimate can be used it a way it doesn't.

That's because you didn't make one. Your previous posts were about sorc sustain, to which I responded as can be seen above.

If you think Meteor sucks because it's too predictable, slot DBOS or Soul Assault like magplars do.

Aedaryl wrote: »

Saying sorc have the best burst is false because everyone counter meteor (and so the combo follwing) 100% of the time. If your DB or incap is blocked/dodged 100% of the time, then it's mean it's YOU being too much predictable. While meteor is ALWAYS predictable (because of telegraph).

My advice : Play sorc and come with me in cyro, I wanna see how ur "Best burst in the game" will kill competant player and how your non "trashy sustain build" will last.

Even without the Meteor sorc has best burst in game when you count Fury proc, that's how far ahead it is of everything else. And I wish I enjoyed playing sorc more, I'd have already made several strong non-meta builds for it.

I guess I'll have to make some proof of concept video just to prove people wrong though (if no one else will).

Aedaryl wrote: »

You will never be able to kill competitive player because burst will ALWAYS be countered and because stam user will stay full HP between burst even if you have a perfect weaving. Also, you will not sustain since comepetant player will out speed you and will not let use skills like Dark conversion or meditate.

Spoiler: if you can't burst a "competitive player" (read: meta tank build) with sorc, you can't burst it with any other burst oriented build either. Feel free to try and burst one with a medium stamblade for example

Tank builds are an universal issue, not just a sorc issue. And I wouldn't go as far as calling them "competitive players" - most of them are trash and simply get carried by overperforming bs.

Buff and sorc in same sentence? Please no.