[Class Reps] Meeting Notes - August 16

Gprime31 · August 2018

So this game will get much, much worse before it gets better? Nothing on server performance huh?

aeowulf · August 2018

Wow NB PVE tank sustain is comparable to a Warden according to that spreadsheet! Perception is a crazy thing!!!!

Jsmalls · August 2018

Curious on whats meant by a few statements:

Talks of damage shields rendering healers in PvE content useless.
I can see where this comes from as a MagSorc main. A lot of content a healer is unnecessary for completion. But in the hardcore endgame content a healer is absolutely necessary, and if you have players using damage shields then they aren't dpsing at that time which leads to inefficiency and that'll show in leaderboards/completion capabilities. Not to mention healers are used for more than just healing, they buff the group in so many other ways.
My fear from this statement is that PvP needs the capability of self defense. Damage shields are getting worse each patch as the damage creep and more CP caps are released (more potential to put points into shattering blows). There are single players that can eat away damage shields as fast as they go up (I'm talking 28k worth of damage shields in 2-3 gcds). Light armor is being held up by damage shields or high resistances by other means, and changing damage shields could render light armor unviable for several classes.
I guess what I'm saying is if damage shields were changed they'd need an entire rework and not just a bandaid change like increased resource cost or decreased strength.

Another statement addresses Crystal fragments and Crystal blast.
It talks about the inefficiency of the skill, but I don't know what is meant by that.
Overall in PvE the only complaint I have is the 10% damage nerf. The ability already pales in comparison to it's closest comparable ability assassin's will. Both are "proc" based but assassin's will offers 8% increased damage, does not suffer from RNG as heavily, gives increased critical % (frags also do but as a class buff offered to the group, a magNB can benefit from both Sorc passive and base % increase from the ability), and has a MUCH higher tooltip. Frags can feel clunky when animation cancelling, which was brought up about a mini cast time that isn't supposed to be present.
PvP wise if you land a frag it should HURT. There are so many counters and visuals to this ability that if it lands the MagSorc should be rewarded. Currently heavy armor/high resistance builds brush them off like nothing. And most other players do not feel threatened by them (without rune cage) as landing one will be outside a CC gcd meaning a block/cast heal or roll Dodge heal will render all damage done useless/undone in the next gcd.

My personal opinion on the matter (may be biased as I am a MagSorc main) is that Crystal frags need two useful morphs. One relative to assassin's will, a HARD hitting non CC ability (this would require the reversal of the 10% damage nerf or addition of a debuff on enemy/something to increases the reward for landing the ability). The other morph being a proc CC. Now in the notes it stated medium damage, I'm just wondering where that fits in with the idea of abilities should not CC and do much damage. Medium to me is around a 10-12k tooltip something akin to spammables. But I really don't think that fits into previous discussion on damaging CC abilities.

The statement on bound armor being not very useful.
Moving it to one bar was nice. Giving it an active ability is nice. But a tanking active ability for both morphs was poor. In PvP, For magicka you have an ability that is outperformed by Magelight, 10% critical %, 2% magicka recovery beats 1% more magicka and 2% spell damage, and the active ability is useless as the class DEPENDS on damage shields. The active ability would need a major change to consider slotting it instead of it in combination with Magelight.

OL isn't used because it's clunky and requires a GCD to enter. Otherwise it would be VERY powerful.

Enzym3 · August 2018

The only concern I have is this line here:

''Frost staff is intended to be a tanking/control element as opposed to a DPS element.''

Now earlier on in the discussion, it was noted that we all want frost mages - so are you going to put me out of misery right now and say there will not be a real frost dps mage (magwarden skills please) or do we have to wait another year ?

I only ask because i don't have much space and would like to decon all my frost gear if the above quote is true

Priyasekarssk · August 2018

Jsmalls wrote: »

Curious on whats meant by a few statements:

Talks of damage shields rendering healers in PvE content useless.
I can see where this comes from as a MagSorc main. A lot of content a healer is unnecessary for completion. But in the hardcore endgame content a healer is absolutely necessary, and if you have players using damage shields then they aren't dpsing at that time which leads to inefficiency and that'll show in leaderboards/completion capabilities. Not to mention healers are used for more than just healing, they buff the group in so many other ways.
My fear from this statement is that PvP needs the capability of self defense. Damage shields are getting worse each patch as the damage creep and more CP caps are released (more potential to put points into shattering blows). There are single players that can eat away damage shields as fast as they go up (I'm talking 28k worth of damage shields in 2-3 gcds). Light armor is being held up by damage shields or high resistances by other means, and changing damage shields could render light armor unviable for several classes.
I guess what I'm saying is if damage shields were changed they'd need an entire rework and not just a bandaid change like increased resource cost or decreased strength.

Another statement addresses Crystal fragments and Crystal blast.
It talks about the inefficiency of the skill, but I don't know what is meant by that.
Overall in PvE the only complaint I have is the 10% damage nerf. The ability already pales in comparison to it's closest comparable ability assassin's will. Both are "proc" based but assassin's will offers 8% increased damage, does not suffer from RNG as heavily, gives increased critical % (frags also do but as a class buff offered to the group, a magNB can benefit from both Sorc passive and base % increase from the ability), and has a MUCH higher tooltip. Frags can feel clunky when animation cancelling, which was brought up about a mini cast time that isn't supposed to be present.
PvP wise if you land a frag it should HURT. There are so many counters and visuals to this ability that if it lands the MagSorc should be rewarded. Currently heavy armor/high resistance builds brush them off like nothing. And most other players do not feel threatened by them (without rune cage) as landing one will be outside a CC gcd meaning a block/cast heal or roll Dodge heal will render all damage done useless/undone in the next gcd.

My personal opinion on the matter (may be biased as I am a MagSorc main) is that Crystal frags need two useful morphs. One relative to assassin's will, a HARD hitting non CC ability (this would require the reversal of the 10% damage nerf or addition of a debuff on enemy/something to increases the reward for landing the ability). The other morph being a proc CC. Now in the notes it stated medium damage, I'm just wondering where that fits in with the idea of abilities should not CC and do much damage. Medium to me is around a 10-12k tooltip something akin to spammables. But I really don't think that fits into previous discussion on damaging CC abilities.

The statement on bound armor being not very useful.
Moving it to one bar was nice. Giving it an active ability is nice. But a tanking active ability for both morphs was poor. In PvP, For magicka you have an ability that is outperformed by Magelight, 10% critical %, 2% magicka recovery beats 1% more magicka and 2% spell damage, and the active ability is useless as the class DEPENDS on damage shields. The active ability would need a major change to consider slotting it instead of it in combination with Magelight.

OL isn't used because it's clunky and requires a GCD to enter. Otherwise it would be VERY powerful.

Already ZOs is working on how to nerf sorc in next patch. They wont give *** in magic sorc. Mag sorcs ask for class change token. Thats the only way to get out of this mess or abandon ESO. Any suggestion is waste of time.

Uviryth · August 2018

No mention that combat that in PvE is entirely based around DoTs, no matter what class, is inherently awful.
No mention of animationcanceling and the hight LA-Damage.

If thats what the future of classbalance is, then I´m afraid ESO is really done (for me).

/sad

Didgerion · August 2018

How come no class representative brought up the CP tree, all balance challenges started with addition of CP tree.

Illuvatarr · August 2018

The notes above convey, categorically, the complete detachment and misunderstanding the developers of this game have in regards to the sorcerer class (specifically magicka sorcerers). Nowhere is this truly more pronounced than in their desire to alter conjured ward (the very fact they are even considering that shows just how detached they are from the pvp reality magicka sorcerers face; our class representative should be screaming about this) It seems they have been counseled on this issue on countless occasions but for some reason cannot seem to grasp the real issues this class faces in real pvp settings.

Make no doubt about it, Magicka Sorcerers are amazing in large scale pvp battles on the non cp server. They have incredible ranged burst damage and timing their damage correctly will kill most players in a rotation. I don't think anyone disputes this.

The problems with the class come in the ability to

1) build distance from other players thus severely impacting survivability and playability in any pvp setting that isn't in a large scale zerg or keep defense.
2) sustainability in pve and pvp

1) The class cannot escape melee classes with and without gap closers effectively in pvp. This reality is due almost entirely to the now unnecessary streak scaling, the lack of viable cc and the lack of a snare removal. The streak resource scaling is no longer needed and should be reversed or the multiplicative effect of the 50 percent increase per streak needs to be adjusted or the amount of the increase needs to be reduced. The logic was pertinent at the time the nerf was implemented but is no longer necessary. I am not sure I understand why streak scales up in cost for repeated use but nightblade stealth does not. If I cannot build distance I cannot effectively fight stamina builds (who seem to have virtually limitless survival resources as well as limitless cc immunity) who literally kill my toon in legendary cp 160 gear with 5 piece light 1 piece heavy and 1 piece medium in under 5 seconds even with shields up. Viable cc and snare removal speak for themselves.
2) The class does not stack up to sustain dps in pve nor pvp. The stealther/assassin class (nightblades of course) can create a more viable ranged dps model than a ranged dps mage class (both from a higher dps and higher sustainability perspective). This is silly game design and, while appeasing probably the most popular class in the game at this point, does nothing to promote game balance both in pvp or in pve.

Merlin13KAGL · August 2018

Tanks need BG recognition too, not just healers. With the minimal exception of Deathmatch, any role should be able to contribute to medal count and successful win, beyond just "assists."

Medium attacks should scale for both damage and resource return. The BS of having a heavy get cut slightly short and getting less DPS than two LA's, yet zero resource return as with a HA isn't reasonable. Scale the effective DPS down and resources up the longer you hold the attack. 1/2 credit should be a minimum.

Lack of skill fire, HA bugs (HA's when not holding Heavy attack, no HA when Heavy attacking, lack of attack at all on targeted enemy or requiring release and press again), and general non-responsiveness in some situations (not lag induced, registering on client, disregarded on server) ~ shouldn't have to mash a button 5x to get a skill to finally fire after the limited window is already closed, and targeting needs to get improved across the board (mistargets, wrong targets, or HA/LA that simply go around an enemy (not even passively dodged) shouldn't be happening, especially when something is 2 ft in front of you and the size of a small house.)

Consistency in dodge direction (backwards if no movement key pressed, in the direction of movement if there is a keypress.)

Basic combat mechanics should be working for all classes almost five years into live development.

After those things are addressed: Diversity in tanking gear/class/race, more diversity in class/race combo's in general, more diversity in Stam backbar skills. Level out the DPS. There shouldn't be a 10-20k difference at the top end from one class to another in the hands of a good player.

Would also like to see clearer methods for those to identify ways to improve role, skill, and dps on a given character, beyond fellow player assistance or half a dozen addons required.

Merlin13KAGL · August 2018

Quantum_V wrote: »

Hey all!

I just quickly want to talk about the comment on the comparison between heavy, medium and light armorm -- hopefully clarify that a little bit more.

I'm gonna talk for myself now and present my personal opinion. What came to my mind from the meeting is not that ZoS necessarily plans on nerfing heavy armor, but bringing up the utility you get in medium and light. We had an internal meeting a couple of days prior to the meeting with the devs, and we almost unanimously agreed that the balance between the three is pretty good, atleast when it comes to passives and what they offer you for each determined playstyle.

Because of that I believe we wont be getting nerfs to heavy armor, but a possible revitalization of the three armor types. A new balance point for armor. It seemed like they're not looking for a simple "nerf heavy/buff medium light solution", but a rework between the three. No plain nerfs/buffs in a vacuum, but almost like overhauling changes that might alter how each armor piece works, modifications that extend simple changes in passives.

I don't know, ZoS didn't tell us directly what they're planning on doing, whenever they propose a solution (and it will surely be done before the patch hits), we will have a more viable and coherent way to argument in favor or against the changes.

Hopefully that helped clarify somethings!

Let me know if you've got any questions!

A simple alternative to this would be to make each perk per-piece, that way you could adjust a build by armor type without the 5pc bonus restriction which applies to two passives of LA/HA, but only one of MA.

Make the perks per-piece, getting an increase in effectiveness the more pieces you have. This would allow a full 5-7 pc LA/MA/HA build to get additional bonus without eliminating the benefit one could get running something beyond the usual 5-1-1 or 6-1 combo. Choose your armor build based on the total combo of weights required, getting a bonus for a 'full set' but not an automatic penalty for not having one?

Tasear · August 2018

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Tanks need BG recognition too, not just healers. With the minimal exception of Deathmatch, any role should be able to contribute to medal count and successful win, beyond just "assists."

Medium attacks should scale for both damage and resource return. The BS of having a heavy get cut slightly short and getting less DPS than two LA's, yet zero resource return as with a HA isn't reasonable. Scale the effective DPS down and resources up the longer you hold the attack. 1/2 credit should be a minimum.

Lack of skill fire, HA bugs (HA's when not holding Heavy attack, no HA when Heavy attacking, lack of attack at all on targeted enemy or requiring release and press again), and general non-responsiveness in some situations (not lag induced, registering on client, disregarded on server) ~ shouldn't have to mash a button 5x to get a skill to finally fire after the limited window is already closed, and targeting needs to get improved across the board (mistargets, wrong targets, or HA/LA that simply go around an enemy (not even passively dodged) shouldn't be happening, especially when something is 2 ft in front of you and the size of a small house.)

Consistency in dodge direction (backwards if no movement key pressed, in the direction of movement if there is a keypress.)

Basic combat mechanics should be working for all classes almost five years into live development.

After those things are addressed: Diversity in tanking gear/class/race, more diversity in class/race combo's in general, more diversity in Stam backbar skills. Level out the DPS. There shouldn't be a 10-20k difference at the top end from one class to another in the hands of a good player.

Would also like to see clearer methods for those to identify ways to improve role, skill, and dps on a given character, beyond fellow player assistance or half a dozen addons required.

Noted concern about tanks and bgs

ruikkarikun · August 2018

Harness Magicka and Conjured Ward skills are overshadowing and diminishing the role of healers.

What??????????????

Are you kidding me? You want sorc be dead not only in pvp but in pve too? Are you insane?

Letho2469 · August 2018

There are five things that make this game a mess to balance (especially pve AND pvp together taken into consideration) and suck the fun out of it:

1. dodge roll immortality against player attacks (making stamina players cancerous enemies in pvp - and hey, i am playing stamina only, so no 'salty mag-pvp'er comments pls, thank you...)
2. shields (for non-restostaff users)
3. strong passive self-heal (and this only for a few lucky classes...)
4. breakfree using stamina
5. some classes given a better and unique toolkit that makes them over-attractive for group play.

All five aspects have to be balanced against each other which will never work out properly.

ad 1. use dodge roll mainly as a mobility thing and probably against projectile attacks (immortality against pve attacks is alright, but pleeease.... not against/while inside aoe telegraphers...). probably improve it's range a bit.
OR
use a charge system for dodge rolls and make it free cost.
ad 2. make shields a healer thing. this will make balancing easier and improve healers' value
ad 3. make heals active abilities. one vigor morph for stamina, one for magicka users, probably some VERY! light passive self heals, but not only for 2 or 3 classes, but for ALL classes (solo content!). the way it is currently done with good self heal only given to some noble classes is utter horseshit. rework solo content (vMSA) accordingly.
ad 4. yes, dodgeroll + breakfree for stam, shields for magicka, i know. this has not worked out and never will. make breakfree a free ability and give it a cooldown (cc immunity must be taken into consideration) => now ppl have to decide when to use it best.
ad 5. (PvE) balancing issues can only be solved by consolidating class mechanics: either ALL classes have sustain advantages, passive group heal, self heal, etc. or NONE at all.

This list is FAR from being complete / taking all things into consideration. A change like the one suggested would need much adaptation for other game mechanics.

code65536 · August 2018

As I wrote in another thread, the blame for healers feeling useless belongs squarely with content design. I.e., this is a problem that belongs with @ZOS_Finn's department, not @ZOS_Wrobel's department.

Example of content where healers are marginalized:

The Zaan encounter in Veteran Scalecaller Peak: The biggest killer, the poison cones, must be sidestepped and cannot be healed through (or shielded through, for that matter). Zaan's beam must be blocked and can't be healed through. Zaan's fire breath must be kited and can't be healed through. The ice phases are a DPS race where healing can buy you a few extra seconds, but you won't need those few extra seconds if you have a third DD to push you through that phase quicker. Finally, having an extra DD means that you have to endure fewer mechanics and makes the fight easier.
The Hard Mode Vykosa encounter in Veteran Moon Hunter Keep: Throughout the fight, werewolves spawn. These werewolves have a heavy attack that will hit a typical DD for 80K, so it must be dodged. (The tank could try taking them, but having the wolves close to the boss runs the risk of pushing the boss and getting even more add spawns.) In short, the name of the game is dodging damage. You can't heal (or shield) through 80K hits. (The funny thing is that in vet non-HM, those same wolves hit for a mere pitiful 8.5K--you don't need to dodge, block, or shield.) And because there are so many werewolves that spawn throughout the fight, having an extra DD to kill them more quickly makes the fight noticeably easier. In short, you have damage that must be avoided and can't be healed and having extra DPS means that you can neutralize the source of that damage much more quickly.

Example of content where healers are valued:

Veteran Cloudrest: Healers are arguably the most important role because there is a lot of strong unavoidable ambient damage in the form of Dark Drain and an intensive healing-check mechanic in the form of the Baneful Mark debuff.
The Hard Mode Balorgh encounter in Veteran March of Sacrifices: Unlike its sister dungeon, the HM in vMoS favors having a healer. There are no DPS races except for the final execute burn. Having more DPS doesn't really make things easier or help you avoid mechanics (the hunt skip is a bug and is triggered by timing rather than by high DPS). And there is a lot of ambient damage during the hunt--some of which isn't really feasible to avoid, such as when you need to angle a boss into a trap that is in the water when that water is electrified--that having a healer takes away a lot of the stress and makes the hunts significantly more forgiving.

Content that features 1-shots and mechanics that require damage avoidance is what makes healers feel useless. Content that features DPS checks and where mechanics can be avoided with high DPS is what makes healers feel useless. Content featuring unavoidable ambient damage will make healers more useful. Content where high DPS isn't as important as survival will make healers feel more useful.

The content design team need to actively think about the mechanics that they design and always ask themselves, "How does this challenge the DDs? How does this challenge the tank? How does this challenge the healer?" Good mechanics design will offer challenges for all three roles. They've gotten pretty good in the past couple of years at making sure that the tanks feel useful, but their track record with healers is still very hit-or-miss.

Carbonised · August 2018

code65536 wrote: »

As I wrote in another thread, the blame for healers feeling useless belongs squarely with content design. I.e., this is a problem that belongs with @ZOS_Finn's department, not @ZOS_Wrobel's department.

Example of content where healers are marginalized:
The Zaan encounter in Veteran Scalecaller Peak: The biggest killer, the poison cones, must be sidestepped and cannot be healed through (or shielded through, for that matter). Zaan's beam must be blocked and can't be healed through. Zaan's fire breath must be kited and can't be healed through. The ice phases are a DPS race where healing can buy you a few extra seconds, but you won't need those few extra seconds if you have a third DD to push you through that phase quicker. Finally, having an extra DD means that you have to endure fewer mechanics and makes the fight easier.

The Hard Mode Vykosa encounter in Veteran Moon Hunter Keep: Throughout the fight, werewolves spawn. These werewolves have a heavy attack that will hit a typical DD for 80K, so it must be dodged. (The tank could try taking them, but having the wolves close to the boss runs the risk of pushing the boss and getting even more add spawns.) In short, the name of the game is dodging damage. You can't heal (or shield) through 80K hits. (The funny thing is that in vet non-HM, those same wolves hit for a mere pitiful 8.5K--you don't need to dodge, block, or shield.) And because there are so many werewolves that spawn throughout the fight, having an extra DD to kill them more quickly makes the fight noticeably easier. In short, you have damage that must be avoided and can't be healed and having extra DPS means that you can neutralize the source of that damage much more quickly.

Example of content where healers are valued:
Veteran Cloudrest: Healers are arguably the most important role because there is a lot of strong unavoidable ambient damage in the form of Dark Drain and an intensive healing-check mechanic in the form of the Baneful Mark debuff.

The Hard Mode Balorgh encounter in Veteran March of Sacrifices: Unlike its sister dungeon, the HM in vMoS favors having a healer. There are no DPS races except for the final execute burn. Having more DPS doesn't really make things easier or help you avoid mechanics (the hunt skip is a bug and is triggered by timing rather than by high DPS). And there is a lot of ambient damage during the hunt--some of which isn't really feasible to avoid, such as when you need to angle a boss into a trap that is in the water when that water is electrified--that having a healer takes away a lot of the stress and makes the hunts significantly more forgiving.

Content that features 1-shots and mechanics that require damage avoidance is what makes healers feel useless. Content that features DPS checks and where mechanics can be avoided with high DPS is what makes healers feel useless. Content featuring unavoidable ambient damage will make healers more useful. Content where high DPS isn't as important as survival will make healers feel more useful.

The content design team need to actively think about the mechanics that they design and always ask themselves, "How does this challenge the DDs? How does this challenge the tank? How does this challenge the healer?" Good mechanics design will offer challenges for all three roles. They've gotten pretty good in the past couple of years at making sure that the tanks feel useful, but their track record with healers is still very hit-or-miss.

Exactly this. Healers are still needed in vet trials, but the reason healers are often passed over for a 3rd DD in dungeons is exactly this, DPS races and DPSing through mechanics, as well as a generous amount of one-shot mechanics in many DLC dungeons.

I can't fathom why they suddenly try and blame it on shields or whatever, when it is clearly a consequence of recent dungeon design decisions.

Illuvatarr · August 2018

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Guys, please stay respectful and constructive. As mentioned in the first paragraph, this doesn't encompass every piece of feedback. The goal here is to collect how the majority of players are feeling, and it may not include everything. We want to continue doing this, but respect goes both ways.

We are trying. Really we are.

People have invested alot of time and energy in their characters and it is clear that the DK/NB class representatives dominate these discussions.

As someone who has come back to this game after FOUR years of not playing, I have played religiously the past two months or so.

ZOS and the class reps have made it easy to cancel my account again after seeing just how amazingly magicka sorcs have been destroyed as a class by the powers that be. Every mechanic in pvp disfavors them from drain magicka/stamina potions to every class being able to burst like a magicka sorc does without the survivability penalty. Furthermore, it is impossible to escape with the streak limitations in place, and combined with snares, no matter how good you are, you will die and not be able to escape.

Dont get me wrong. In large zerg situations, magicka sorcs shine or in keep defense. Shine is relative, however, as every class can burst to the same level almost with a inferno destruction staff. The burst that stamina builds can do with a bow/2h (and it requires no skill and timing like a magicka sorc requires due to timed burst) is comical and is greater than the magicka sorc can do back to them due to silly passives and armor mechanics effectively nullifying the way the magicka sorc plays.

The game overwhelmingly favors stamina builds and this should be clear by watching videos of the "elite" players decimate groups with stamina aoes and stamina characters.

Game really sucks now and, by reading the class representative notes, it made it that much easier to cancel my account again and move on to other games. At least when it comes to magicka sorcs, they are completely and blithely unaware of how to fix this class. (for example a thought that might have occurred to you is just how silly and overpowered magicka/stamina drain potions are and how they unfairly benefit class/weapon specs that use more weapon based abilities).

Good luck and hopefully the ethos dominating the developers (lets buff nightblades, stamina builds need help, wardens/templars need more burst damage (with healing skill lines superior to the other classes), nightblades need help haha) changes and you focus on making the game enjoyable for everyone.

I just dont see it in the near term and tired of doing everything right with my toon and still getting destroyed in pvp due to limitations placed on my class by a myopic group of overseers.

Xvorg · August 2018

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Specific Class goals for update 20
Dragonknights:
Address inconsistent ability ranges (Embers 5 meters, Whip 8 meters, Flames 10 meters)

Hardened Armor morph needs improvement

Power Lash stun does not synergize well with class theme of control. Also want to move away from high burst+stun mechanics

Nothing on DK passives? Nothing on Ardent Flame?

Illuvatarr · August 2018

To provide some concrete examples rather than just a rant....

1) The very fact you are considering nerfing sorc damage shields so that "healers have a place in game" is simply unbelievable. (already needs to be spammed just to keep any ONE dps spec from instantly killing my toon). Healers will never have a place in this game. The game was designed for every toon to be self sustaining. If you make the pve changes, you will ruin magicka sorcs (and potentially other classes in pvp although I cannot comment as I dont have the knowledge base as I do about the magicka sorc).
2) With their current survivability, magicka sorcs should be the hardest hitting and highest burst class in the game. Bar none. The crystal frags changes should be reversed given the new environment (should knock down and scale widely in damage just like after release) and the streak changes should be reversed. Furthermore, streak should have a chance to remove snares or remove them outright. Yes, I am not kidding. Magicka Sorcs just sit there and die in the open field and thats why you rarely see them anymore. If stamina classes can do momentum essentially at will, I should be able to counter them and escape considering they even get near me and I die instantly. (in all impenetrable gear and exact gear set prescribed in the meta for magicka sorcs).
3) The class has no way to sustain and is pretty much forced to be cookie cutter to work. I can choose daedric tomb/minefield to try and stop the crowd of melee classes with cc immunity get to me and permasnare me (although most simply use a gap closer and ignore the mines altogether) or I can use harness magicka to try and maintain sustain at the cost of stamina. The class is forced to spec all magicka to be viable and is forced to make a choice between sustain and survivability. A huge choice that complete stymies the classes already hampered ability to survive in pvp. Its silly.
4) The class has no way to purge negative effects. My understanding is that every other class in game does.
5) Where is the magicka sorc counter to reflective scales? It's five years or so into launch and there is still nothing the class can do to get around this. With an inferno staff, the dk can hit me from range as hard if not harder than I can hit him. Where is my counter? Is this even on your radar?
6) I have been playing mmos for many years. Never in the history of that tenure have I seen a more overpowered ability on a class than nightblade stealth and their ability to use it right in front of you to avoid damage and targeting without penalty or on a timer. Is this serious balancing? The only counter in game to it that could possibly work is magelight and it does not work. Magelight should be a passive buff and a hard counter to it but it lasts 6 seconds and has to be reapplied. To show just how off balance ZOS balancing is with this, they decided to make it a visual effect so nightblades get another buff and can avoid the person with magelight. This “helps” everyone but really just helps nightblades.

Xvorg · August 2018

BohnT wrote: »

oh boy stamdk being bad in any category yet the only changes coming with update 20 will be magdk QoL changes like let's make their life better before we try to bring stamdk back to agrypnocoma from it's current state that has more in common with death than being alive

I'm afraid they want mDK and sDK players fight each other, which is a shame.

Xvorg · August 2018

WNxSiv wrote: »

The only concern I have is this line here:

''Frost staff is intended to be a tanking/control element as opposed to a DPS element.''

Now earlier on in the discussion, it was noted that we all want frost mages - so are you going to put me out of misery right now and say there will not be a real frost dps mage (magwarden skills please) or do we have to wait another year ?

I only ask because i don't have much space and would like to decon all my frost gear if the above quote is true

New class: Criomage ---> 59.99 USD

Xvorg · August 2018

Illuvatarr wrote: »

5) Where is the magicka sorc counter to reflective scales? It's five years or so into launch and there is still nothing the class can do to get around this. With an inferno staff, the dk can hit me from range as hard if not harder than I can hit him. Where is my counter? Is this even on your radar?

Rune, Mages fury, Daedric curse, Negate, Attro, streak, full HA lit/resto staff, force shock, pulsar, just to name a few.

Wings are a counter to frags and I would dare to say it is the only counter to frags that DK has access.

Xvorg · August 2018

pieratsos wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Specific Class goals for update 20
Dragonknights:
Power Lash stun does not synergize well with class theme of control. Also want to move away from high burst+stun mechanics

Please, for Almalexia, exclude the DK reps from all future meetings and discussions if this is the sort of change we can expect. My Mag DK is already severely handicapped in Cyrodiil and changes like this will only make it worse. The entire purpose of the Class Reps program is to improve the classes. I feel as if the DK reps are engaging in active sabotage based on items like this. Why not cut to the chase and just double all costs and halve all output? It would save so much more time given how improving DKs is clearly not a goal of this program.

They are going to remove the stun and give it something else to compensate. Judging from the notes probably going back to being undodgeable again. So if anything, power lash may be getting buffed not nerfed.

Probably something that will make half the forum scream "NERF!!!"

usmguy1234 · August 2018

Illuvatarr wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Guys, please stay respectful and constructive. As mentioned in the first paragraph, this doesn't encompass every piece of feedback. The goal here is to collect how the majority of players are feeling, and it may not include everything. We want to continue doing this, but respect goes both ways.

We are trying. Really we are.

People have invested alot of time and energy in their characters and it is clear that the DK/NB class representatives dominate these discussions.

As someone who has come back to this game after FOUR years of not playing, I have played religiously the past two months or so.

ZOS and the class reps have made it easy to cancel my account again after seeing just how amazingly magicka sorcs have been destroyed as a class by the powers that be. Every mechanic in pvp disfavors them from drain magicka/stamina potions to every class being able to burst like a magicka sorc does without the survivability penalty. Furthermore, it is impossible to escape with the streak limitations in place, and combined with snares, no matter how good you are, you will die and not be able to escape.

Dont get me wrong. In large zerg situations, magicka sorcs shine or in keep defense. Shine is relative, however, as every class can burst to the same level almost with a inferno destruction staff. The burst that stamina builds can do with a bow/2h (and it requires no skill and timing like a magicka sorc requires due to timed burst) is comical and is greater than the magicka sorc can do back to them due to silly passives and armor mechanics effectively nullifying the way the magicka sorc plays.

The game overwhelmingly favors stamina builds and this should be clear by watching videos of the "elite" players decimate groups with stamina aoes and stamina characters.

Game really sucks now and, by reading the class representative notes, it made it that much easier to cancel my account again and move on to other games. At least when it comes to magicka sorcs, they are completely and blithely unaware of how to fix this class. (for example a thought that might have occurred to you is just how silly and overpowered magicka/stamina drain potions are and how they unfairly benefit class/weapon specs that use more weapon based abilities).

Good luck and hopefully the ethos dominating the developers (lets buff nightblades, stamina builds need help, wardens/templars need more burst damage (with healing skill lines superior to the other classes), nightblades need help haha) changes and you focus on making the game enjoyable for everyone.

I just dont see it in the near term and tired of doing everything right with my toon and still getting destroyed in pvp due to limitations placed on my class by a myopic group of overseers.

I would like to second this.

RebornV3x · August 2018

I had high hopes for this program but so far its been disappointing to say the least

I sense a nerf to sorc wards incoming hopefully sorcs will get better burst dps and sustain and other defensive options like buffing mines if not this class will continue to be mediocre and possibly one of the worst classes

Making healing more rewarding sounds great and any thing to help mag wardens out too is great tho

usmguy1234 · August 2018

Xvorg wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

5) Where is the magicka sorc counter to reflective scales? It's five years or so into launch and there is still nothing the class can do to get around this. With an inferno staff, the dk can hit me from range as hard if not harder than I can hit him. Where is my counter? Is this even on your radar?

Rune, Mages fury, Daedric curse, Negate, Attro, streak, full HA lit/resto staff, force shock, pulsar, just to name a few.

Wings are a counter to frags and I would dare to say it is the only counter to frags that DK has access.

Good luck killing a decent mdk/sdk with any of those. On the other hand it's embers->la->skoria proc->sorc shields down-> petrify->leap->lash->powerlash->sorc dead-> gg or venomous claw-> dizzying-> leap->reverse slice->gg

Ragnarock41 · August 2018

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

5) Where is the magicka sorc counter to reflective scales? It's five years or so into launch and there is still nothing the class can do to get around this. With an inferno staff, the dk can hit me from range as hard if not harder than I can hit him. Where is my counter? Is this even on your radar?

Rune, Mages fury, Daedric curse, Negate, Attro, streak, full HA lit/resto staff, force shock, pulsar, just to name a few.

Wings are a counter to frags and I would dare to say it is the only counter to frags that DK has access.

Good luck killing a decent mdk/sdk with any of those. On the other hand it's embers->la->skoria proc->sorc shields down-> petrify->leap->lash->powerlash->sorc dead-> gg or venomous claw-> dizzying-> leap->reverse slice->gg

and the sorc will be sleeping meanwhile?

Cadbury · August 2018

I'm sad but not surprised that it appears the class reps are being blamed for the changes ZOS wants to implement.
I was in another MMO where this exact same scenario occurred. There was alot of vitriol and finger pointing until two of the reps quit the game. I hated watching it happen then and I hate it now.

Illuvatarr · August 2018

Xvorg wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

5) Where is the magicka sorc counter to reflective scales? It's five years or so into launch and there is still nothing the class can do to get around this. With an inferno staff, the dk can hit me from range as hard if not harder than I can hit him. Where is my counter? Is this even on your radar?

Rune, Mages fury, Daedric curse, Negate, Attro, streak, full HA lit/resto staff, force shock, pulsar, just to name a few.

Wings are a counter to frags and I would dare to say it is the only counter to frags that DK has access.

Ya you shouldnt have that counter to frags. No longer needed. Arguably never was.

I dont have a hard counter to your class. You shouldnt have one to mine. The level of entitlement behind your statement is troubling.

Frags is and should be the sorcs class defining ability. With the amount of dodge in game, it is easily avoided. Reflective scales still being in game is a slap in the face to arguably one of the worst class specs there is.

Letho2469 · August 2018

If changes leave magsorcs in a too bad spot, then they have to be overhauled (like most other classes). Easy as that. My comments were related to general gameplay elements like stamina vs. magicka.

IZZEFlameLash · August 2018

Cadbury wrote: »

I'm sad but not surprised that it appears the class reps are being blamed for the changes ZOS wants to implement.
I was in another MMO where this exact same scenario occurred. There was alot of vitriol and finger pointing until two of the reps quit the game. I hated watching it happen then and I hate it now.

Most of us know it ain't class reps' fault. We know it is ZOS's fault. This entire program is nothing more than a PR stunt and was hoping to get the reps blamed on their behalf. But I think ZOS underestimated players. At least so this whole thing seems right now. There are like no real pain points written there for DKs for example. Really don't know what ZOS is doing.