Sounds like a L2P issue, Zos even gives proper hints to...



...I... Errh... Huh...

Oh well.

Asmael wrote: »

Sounds like a L2P issue, Zos even gives proper hints to...



...I... Errh... Huh...

Oh well.

ZOS told you to l2p. Nice job ZOS. Use the very thing bleed ignores.

DKsUnite wrote: »

Bleeds are defs strong and hurt and really the best way to counter them is HoT's and % mitigation like maim and protection. When someone stacks 4 bleeds on you though, that's a death sentence and way too powerful imo.

Don't forget Sload's on top of all of it.

I run a bleed build stam sorc... 2H/DW.... Master's Axes too. Ran Cyro Crest too sometimes.

It really is a grey area... some ppl just melt (in the case of glass cannon bow stamblades... good.. i don't feel bad at all) others still take a while.

I got left alone with a DK on Domination map in BG. I don't know how we got left alone for that long, maybe my team tied his up, but i was there a good 3-4 minutes if not more till he finally went down, just beating on him....
He actually didn't bother even attacking at all... he did less than 5 figure dmg at the final screen.

He stood there, took dmg.. healed up... I am pretty sure I dumped like 4-5 pots to sustain and I also have run rune cage from the get go (pre summerset) instead of dizzy. Dizzy is really unreliable with my aussie ping.

Inc hurricane I get like 7 dots running. 2H bleed, brawler, TBnB, Blood Craze, Double Dot poison and Hurricane.
Plus I was heavy attacking and dumping DBoS....

So most ppl fit in the middle somewhere...

Some templars just wipe your dots and mash you back. In medium I am squishy as hell anyone comes to aid their team/alliance buddy you gotta roll... get ready to LoS...
Stamblades catch you slipping you get dropped. Same with mag Sorcs.... Stamdens...


In heavy (i have 28k resists, 5.2k crit resist build) I can't just spam my abilities.. i gotta throw in heavy attacks....

IF anything the tune has to be careful and smallish.. but we know ZOS doesn't do incremental.. so I am worried they will over tune the other way.

I made the toon to be fast.. to deal the death of a thousand cuts.. not be super bursty... but in return it takes time... instead of stamblade gank instant.

Yea they’re strong.. so is perma block.

Seems like DKs in particular are struggling a lot with this. Which is interesting cus they are still some of the most durable and difficult to kill specs in the game. Bleeds are one of the only reliable ways to dent a sturdy dk for a stam build. How do you counter bleeds? With healing. Literally the counter to damage is heals, and healing is something dragonknights have an over abundance of. People asserting bleeds are a counter don’t understand the meaning of the word. Wings are a counter. Mark is a counter. Oblivion damage is a counter. Defile is a counter. Bleeds are just damage, which is “countered” by healing. But I can see why a class used to ez tanking and mitigation might see the one form of damage they cant easily repel as a major balance issue.

I will reiterate that bleeds exist for a reason. They serve a purpose. And you remove that without regard to the overall picture, and you could easily give rise once again to the perma blocking, block casting, “unkillable” to pugs playstyle that zos abhors. And I don’t think they want that.

.

pieratsos wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Seems like DKs in particular are struggling a lot with this. Which is interesting cus they are still some of the most durable and difficult to kill specs in the game. Bleeds are one of the only reliable ways to dent a sturdy dk for a stam build. How do you counter bleeds? With healing. Literally the counter to damage is heals, and healing is something dragonknights have an over abundance of. People asserting bleeds are a counter don’t understand the meaning of the word. Wings are a counter. Mark is a counter. Defile is a counter. Bleeds are just damage, which is “countered” by healing. But I can see why a class used to ez tanking and mitigation might see the one form of damage they cant easily repel as a major balance issue.

I will reiterate that bleeds exist for a reason. They serve a purpose. And you remove that without regard to the overall picture, and you could easily give rise once again to the perma blocking, block casting, “unkillable” to pugs playstyle that zos abhors. And I don’t think they want that.

So how about we actually balance the game instead of throwing band aid fixes that ignore mechanics.

Hell no!

Actually true balance isn't a goal

Underdogs and top dogs provide a more (dunno right word) but it increases sales.

Same marketing tactics are used in TCG (like MTG)

Emma_Overload wrote: »

But, yeah, bleeds are ridiculous, too, especially with Master's Axes.

Yea agreed there. Bleeds are too good atm, switched to axe from sword myself to try it, and i can bleed crit ppl for nearly 3k per tick..

Hahaha were back on bleeds again, after the Sloads nerf ? You one dementional players are too much. L2P

DarkAedin wrote: »

-Every magika build in the game has access to a ranged class dot.
-Dk is the only class with a stam varient of a class dot, and its melee range.
-axes have a low proc chance for bleeds.
-in a pve parse, bleeds are halfway down the dmg list on ur dmg done, so we already know that there are plenty of other dots that outperform bleeds dmg wise.

-3 pages in and not one person has actually brought up how to defend against bleeds, its pretty sad.
Here goes: u have two types of stam builds, heavy and medium; heavy users bleeds are mitigated by rapid regen/mutagen, medium armor users bleeds are more about the crit then stacking dmg, as a mag user, u fight crits with shields, so u once again rr/mutagen and pop a shield to negate the bleed critting u, which is where the majority of its dmg comes from.

There is a HUGE l2p issue happening here.

So many players dont understand that u MUST bring a few heals into pvp, i see this daily in bgs where any of my toons (all dd builds) walk in with 2-3 heals, i normally put out 200k healing on top of 1mil+dmg in a bg and my teamates are sub 100k healing out.
U counter dmg with different forms of mitigation AND healing, like many others b4 me have said, los the dude and heal up, or keep ur hots going constantly, bubble up, cc and pressure. Also start thinking about vitality/lingering potions, they can also outheal bleeds.

Smh ppl callin for nerfs without understanding fundamentals of the game

Your counters are literally just counters to everything. You keep your hots up, Los, pop a shield etc to help with getting hit by anything in the game. None of this stuff is specific to bleeds.

LeifErickson wrote: »

DarkAedin wrote: »

-Every magika build in the game has access to a ranged class dot.
-Dk is the only class with a stam varient of a class dot, and its melee range.
-axes have a low proc chance for bleeds.
-in a pve parse, bleeds are halfway down the dmg list on ur dmg done, so we already know that there are plenty of other dots that outperform bleeds dmg wise.

-3 pages in and not one person has actually brought up how to defend against bleeds, its pretty sad.
Here goes: u have two types of stam builds, heavy and medium; heavy users bleeds are mitigated by rapid regen/mutagen, medium armor users bleeds are more about the crit then stacking dmg, as a mag user, u fight crits with shields, so u once again rr/mutagen and pop a shield to negate the bleed critting u, which is where the majority of its dmg comes from.

There is a HUGE l2p issue happening here.

So many players dont understand that u MUST bring a few heals into pvp, i see this daily in bgs where any of my toons (all dd builds) walk in with 2-3 heals, i normally put out 200k healing on top of 1mil+dmg in a bg and my teamates are sub 100k healing out.
U counter dmg with different forms of mitigation AND healing, like many others b4 me have said, los the dude and heal up, or keep ur hots going constantly, bubble up, cc and pressure. Also start thinking about vitality/lingering potions, they can also outheal bleeds.

Smh ppl callin for nerfs without understanding fundamentals of the game

Your counters are literally just counters to everything. You keep your hots up, Los, pop a shield etc to help with getting hit by anything in the game. None of this stuff is specific to bleeds.

Leif, I’m not saying bleeds aren’t strong, but if those things he listed are counters to everything in the game and bleeds are in the game shouldn’t they then be counters to bleeds? Trust me I understand they are very strong, but you primarily play a perma/near perma blocking mdk, you also don’t want to surrender blood spawn or slot a hot, so by default you feel bleeds more than anything else. Just like stam builds have to feel your cc through dodge and block with accompanied immob, that is felt even more so by magicka builds that don’t have the stam sustain.

If shield breaker is the hard counter to shields, then everyone should run shield breaker, then everyone would complain about no counters to shield breaker. There is no end.

Bleeds aid against tank and perma block builds, but everyone that is not that feels it more. You as a tanky perma block mdk, it’s what pains you the most.

LeifErickson wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

DarkAedin wrote: »

-Every magika build in the game has access to a ranged class dot.
-Dk is the only class with a stam varient of a class dot, and its melee range.
-axes have a low proc chance for bleeds.
-in a pve parse, bleeds are halfway down the dmg list on ur dmg done, so we already know that there are plenty of other dots that outperform bleeds dmg wise.

-3 pages in and not one person has actually brought up how to defend against bleeds, its pretty sad.
Here goes: u have two types of stam builds, heavy and medium; heavy users bleeds are mitigated by rapid regen/mutagen, medium armor users bleeds are more about the crit then stacking dmg, as a mag user, u fight crits with shields, so u once again rr/mutagen and pop a shield to negate the bleed critting u, which is where the majority of its dmg comes from.

There is a HUGE l2p issue happening here.

So many players dont understand that u MUST bring a few heals into pvp, i see this daily in bgs where any of my toons (all dd builds) walk in with 2-3 heals, i normally put out 200k healing on top of 1mil+dmg in a bg and my teamates are sub 100k healing out.
U counter dmg with different forms of mitigation AND healing, like many others b4 me have said, los the dude and heal up, or keep ur hots going constantly, bubble up, cc and pressure. Also start thinking about vitality/lingering potions, they can also outheal bleeds.

Smh ppl callin for nerfs without understanding fundamentals of the game

Your counters are literally just counters to everything. You keep your hots up, Los, pop a shield etc to help with getting hit by anything in the game. None of this stuff is specific to bleeds.

Leif, I’m not saying bleeds aren’t strong, but if those things he listed are counters to everything in the game and bleeds are in the game shouldn’t they then be counters to bleeds? Trust me I understand they are very strong, but you primarily play a perma/near perma blocking mdk, you also don’t want to surrender blood spawn or slot a hot, so by default you feel bleeds more than anything else. Just like stam builds have to feel your cc through dodge and block with accompanied immob, that is felt even more so by magicka builds that don’t have the stam sustain.

If shield breaker is the hard counter to shields, then everyone should run shield breaker, then everyone would complain about no counters to shield breaker. There is no end.

Bleeds aid against tank and perma block builds, but everyone that is not that feels it more. You as a tanky perma block mdk, it’s what pains you the most.

You are right however the difference between your bleeds and the bleeds of Cyrodiil are a different ball game. You play solo or in a small group. Your bleeds are your own. A guy gets a couple bleeds on him from another guy, whatever. It's not that big of a deal. The problem is when I'm fighting multiple players running bleeds that stack 4+ bleeds on me. I have no chance whatsoever. And before people say "oh you shouldn't win that fight anyways blah blah blah," it's not that I think I should win, it's that I literally melt in 5 seconds or less in a fight like that. A tanky hold your ground class like mdk should not be dying in 5 seconds or less regardless of if they are getting countered. Why play a zero mobility hold your ground class if you can't hold your ground.

This is a new thing this patch. Take a look at the patch notes for Wolfhunter:



Link to patch notes: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/430154/pc-mac-patch-notes-v4-1-5-wolfhunter-update-19#latest

This "fix" is something that doesn't change anything for you because you play solo/in a small group. All ZOS needs to do to make bleeds not as bad is to make it so they can't be stacked 3+ on one player.

They shouldn't balance the game around that scenario though. That results in abilities that are only useful in zergs but terrible in other conditions (something that is a pain point for alot of abilities across all the classes). Case in point, you can actually die from 50 people in trash gear light attacking you if you arent careful; shall we nerf light attacks because I didn't run away to pick off that zerg 1 at a time? LOS is a tactic to help counter alot of things for good reason.

Hold your ground builds are outdated as well; you have to start building speed. And DK's now have immunity on wings something other classes just don't have without running mist/FM!

We had this same discussion when people hated IC/1T templar jesus beam so much they kept saying "multiple players use this ability therefore it must be nerfed!" It then created a version of jesus beam for multiple patches that was only effective in a group zerg setting due to the counters that everyone pretended didn't exist but were quite strong.

LeifErickson wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

DarkAedin wrote: »

-Every magika build in the game has access to a ranged class dot.
-Dk is the only class with a stam varient of a class dot, and its melee range.
-axes have a low proc chance for bleeds.
-in a pve parse, bleeds are halfway down the dmg list on ur dmg done, so we already know that there are plenty of other dots that outperform bleeds dmg wise.

-3 pages in and not one person has actually brought up how to defend against bleeds, its pretty sad.
Here goes: u have two types of stam builds, heavy and medium; heavy users bleeds are mitigated by rapid regen/mutagen, medium armor users bleeds are more about the crit then stacking dmg, as a mag user, u fight crits with shields, so u once again rr/mutagen and pop a shield to negate the bleed critting u, which is where the majority of its dmg comes from.

There is a HUGE l2p issue happening here.

So many players dont understand that u MUST bring a few heals into pvp, i see this daily in bgs where any of my toons (all dd builds) walk in with 2-3 heals, i normally put out 200k healing on top of 1mil+dmg in a bg and my teamates are sub 100k healing out.
U counter dmg with different forms of mitigation AND healing, like many others b4 me have said, los the dude and heal up, or keep ur hots going constantly, bubble up, cc and pressure. Also start thinking about vitality/lingering potions, they can also outheal bleeds.

Smh ppl callin for nerfs without understanding fundamentals of the game

Your counters are literally just counters to everything. You keep your hots up, Los, pop a shield etc to help with getting hit by anything in the game. None of this stuff is specific to bleeds.

Leif, I’m not saying bleeds aren’t strong, but if those things he listed are counters to everything in the game and bleeds are in the game shouldn’t they then be counters to bleeds? Trust me I understand they are very strong, but you primarily play a perma/near perma blocking mdk, you also don’t want to surrender blood spawn or slot a hot, so by default you feel bleeds more than anything else. Just like stam builds have to feel your cc through dodge and block with accompanied immob, that is felt even more so by magicka builds that don’t have the stam sustain.

If shield breaker is the hard counter to shields, then everyone should run shield breaker, then everyone would complain about no counters to shield breaker. There is no end.

Bleeds aid against tank and perma block builds, but everyone that is not that feels it more. You as a tanky perma block mdk, it’s what pains you the most.

You are right however the difference between your bleeds and the bleeds of Cyrodiil are a different ball game. You play solo or in a small group. Your bleeds are your own. A guy gets a couple bleeds on him from another guy, whatever. It's not that big of a deal. The problem is when I'm fighting multiple players running bleeds that stack 4+ bleeds on me. I have no chance whatsoever. And before people say "oh you shouldn't win that fight anyways blah blah blah," it's not that I think I should win, it's that I literally melt in 5 seconds or less in a fight like that. A tanky hold your ground class like mdk should not be dying in 5 seconds or less regardless of if they are getting countered. Why play a zero mobility hold your ground class if you can't hold your ground.

This is a new thing this patch. Take a look at the patch notes for Wolfhunter:



Link to patch notes: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/430154/pc-mac-patch-notes-v4-1-5-wolfhunter-update-19#latest

This "fix" is something that doesn't change anything for you because you play solo/in a small group. All ZOS needs to do to make bleeds not as bad is to make it so they can't be stacked 3+ on one player.

We are both screwed there bud. They aren’t going to, and arguably shouldn’t balance items in favor of the 1.

The not stacking part seems decent, but then we have to look about assimilating that to everything.
Is it just weapon skills? After wpn skills do we consider class skills? How horrible would it be if your embers couldn’t be placed on a target cause Quantum’s embers were on it? It’s just an all around rough and sticky situation.