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Bleeds Are Overpowered
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Jjitsuboy98✭✭✭✭Jjitsuboy98 wrote: »bleed build with sloads on my solo Stam dk with skoria is probably my favorite Stam dk build. Sustain still sucks with Stam dk though. Incredible pressure though. I may try a healing set now that defile is weaker to replace sloads.
That's not a bleed build.
Seeing as it works on any class, it's not even a "build".
It's a proctard dot set combo.
Slap on Viper and you've got yourself the full-on meta dottard StamDK cancerous cheese for pseudo-l33t scrubs.
How can people like their free RNG-based damage so much - wouldn't they be better off playing Snakes and Ladders?
I just so wish the devs would cater more to chess players.
Nothing personal about the rant by the way.
Just opposing visions of the game.
Cheese on.
I only solo in cyrodil though and have been running a dot build for forever.0 -
IZZEFlameLash✭✭✭✭✭
✭To the people saying points into thick skinned helps and so does crit resist.
On my stam dk i run 3100 Crit resist and 56 points into thick skinned. The highest damage remember taking on my dk is nearly 10k over 4 ticks. on average i see 6k over 3 ticks, with 2-3 different bleeds in my feed.
Bleeds need adjusting.
So you are only protecting against a 41% crit DMG modifier? When Templars and nightblades are both getting 70-80%.IZZEFlameLash wrote: »IZZEFlameLash wrote: »WreckfulAbandon wrote: »
Put 3 of them together, 3k passive unresistable DPS. Pretty OK I suppose. Then add sloads, another 850, with active offense like a spammable, and then defiles to gimp your healing. All in all about 6k dps where your healing stacks are doing maybe 2k.
As the lord once said: That's alot of damage.
That's 3 different mechanics you're describing there man. Anyone who knows anything about PvP knows bleeds are strong but at the same time, I'm sure plenty notice the pattern in this thread... A bunch of DK mains complaining about what counters them hardest.
So which counters DK's the hardest, bleeds defiles or sloads? Cause saying "all 3, NERRRRRF" isn't a viable argument for nerfing bleeds. Plenty of things other than those 3 mechanics have put a crimp on "stand your ground" playstyle: emphasis on mobility, poisons, changes in block calculations, heavy armor nerfs.
Block+Major Vitality+Mending+Lingering Health+Troll King+healing skills (there are other things like CP, health regen, and set procs as well) needs a viable counter. You act like bleeds are on par with Shieldbreaker, which btw has existed unchanged for a long time now. And now with Defile sources nerfed and Befoul not working healing essentially got another buff. Bleeds are strong but fine, I'm fine with TTK being a bit lower, and yes for tanky DK's too. Cause you don't use defensive/sustain sets to reach BFG levels of damage, you have to build for it. Are we supposed to go for Dizzying Swing combos on blocking DK's? That's a sure way to end up in someone's 1vX clip.
I mean one of you even conceded that they could handle bleeds 1v1 but it's in Xv1 situations that they're OP...
That takes a whole lot to counter 1 button. Major Vitality requires pots to have reliable access but still have low up time on top of being on potion cooldown. Then if DK, 4k magicka to Major Mending and slotting Troll King that could have taken other sets just to have effective healing against it. This is all nice in ideal situation, but not gonna have Major Vitality (from Lingering) all the time for the duration of whole fight realistically where as bleeds are applied as simple as just using Rending Slashes and Light/Heavy attack.
Then again all that healing is keeping yourself topped off. It isn't magically stopping at only bleeds lol.
In real circumstance, you are basically on constant potion cd when you are using Immovability pots when outnumbered and occassional tri-pots. Then speed pots. So Major Vitality is basically out the window for the most part.
You are right that heals are not limited to bleeds but no other single player induced DoT require that much healing in this game. Nothing short of siege dots and stacked Sload's basically. And it does not change the fact that this one source of damage alone requires you to give up other options from pots forces you into losing defensive game. No other DoTs take me from full to 50 within 3 seconds. And those DoT build players don't stand around idly. I don't think you stand around idly as well. No other non-siege DoTs currently can do pressuring as effective as this. I'd rather have axe as a some mid way between sword and mace traits. Like half of each traits, this way, axes are still a good choice and axe bleed and Rending bleed don't stack and less stacks to deal with out in the open world in general.
Well you aren't locked to vitality pots; most of the QQ'ers in this thread have a nice access to major mending along with a passive that boosts their healing outside of a named buff.
And in some ways tri pots are still better than most due to the heal+recovery boost (why else are most stamina builds orcs if not for the health recovery boost).
Only thing they need to adjust for bleeds is to stop the dual axe stack and revise class passives to bring everyone up to the line with nightblades.
Well, 1 bleed, you might not need Major Vitality but once you start getting stacks of those 2k and up damage each, you probably do. But you did mention Major Vitality in your other post, which is why I mentioned the pot thing. But I think we can all agree on one thing, revise class passives and stop the stacking of such powerful DoTs.Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel0 -
DarkAedin✭✭✭✭✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »To the people saying points into thick skinned helps and so does crit resist.
On my stam dk i run 3100 Crit resist and 56 points into thick skinned. The highest damage remember taking on my dk is nearly 10k over 4 ticks. on average i see 6k over 3 ticks, with 2-3 different bleeds in my feed.
Bleeds need adjusting.
So you are only protecting against a 41% crit DMG modifier? When Templars and nightblades are both getting 70-80%.IZZEFlameLash wrote: »IZZEFlameLash wrote: »WreckfulAbandon wrote: »
Put 3 of them together, 3k passive unresistable DPS. Pretty OK I suppose. Then add sloads, another 850, with active offense like a spammable, and then defiles to gimp your healing. All in all about 6k dps where your healing stacks are doing maybe 2k.
As the lord once said: That's alot of damage.
That's 3 different mechanics you're describing there man. Anyone who knows anything about PvP knows bleeds are strong but at the same time, I'm sure plenty notice the pattern in this thread... A bunch of DK mains complaining about what counters them hardest.
So which counters DK's the hardest, bleeds defiles or sloads? Cause saying "all 3, NERRRRRF" isn't a viable argument for nerfing bleeds. Plenty of things other than those 3 mechanics have put a crimp on "stand your ground" playstyle: emphasis on mobility, poisons, changes in block calculations, heavy armor nerfs.
Block+Major Vitality+Mending+Lingering Health+Troll King+healing skills (there are other things like CP, health regen, and set procs as well) needs a viable counter. You act like bleeds are on par with Shieldbreaker, which btw has existed unchanged for a long time now. And now with Defile sources nerfed and Befoul not working healing essentially got another buff. Bleeds are strong but fine, I'm fine with TTK being a bit lower, and yes for tanky DK's too. Cause you don't use defensive/sustain sets to reach BFG levels of damage, you have to build for it. Are we supposed to go for Dizzying Swing combos on blocking DK's? That's a sure way to end up in someone's 1vX clip.
I mean one of you even conceded that they could handle bleeds 1v1 but it's in Xv1 situations that they're OP...
That takes a whole lot to counter 1 button. Major Vitality requires pots to have reliable access but still have low up time on top of being on potion cooldown. Then if DK, 4k magicka to Major Mending and slotting Troll King that could have taken other sets just to have effective healing against it. This is all nice in ideal situation, but not gonna have Major Vitality (from Lingering) all the time for the duration of whole fight realistically where as bleeds are applied as simple as just using Rending Slashes and Light/Heavy attack.
Then again all that healing is keeping yourself topped off. It isn't magically stopping at only bleeds lol.
In real circumstance, you are basically on constant potion cd when you are using Immovability pots when outnumbered and occassional tri-pots. Then speed pots. So Major Vitality is basically out the window for the most part.
You are right that heals are not limited to bleeds but no other single player induced DoT require that much healing in this game. Nothing short of siege dots and stacked Sload's basically. And it does not change the fact that this one source of damage alone requires you to give up other options from pots forces you into losing defensive game. No other DoTs take me from full to 50 within 3 seconds. And those DoT build players don't stand around idly. I don't think you stand around idly as well. No other non-siege DoTs currently can do pressuring as effective as this. I'd rather have axe as a some mid way between sword and mace traits. Like half of each traits, this way, axes are still a good choice and axe bleed and Rending bleed don't stack and less stacks to deal with out in the open world in general.
Well you aren't locked to vitality pots; most of the QQ'ers in this thread have a nice access to major mending along with a passive that boosts their healing outside of a named buff.
And in some ways tri pots are still better than most due to the heal+recovery boost (why else are most stamina builds orcs if not for the health recovery boost).
Only thing they need to adjust for bleeds is to stop the dual axe stack and revise class passives to bring everyone up to the line with nightblades.
Well, 1 bleed, you might not need Major Vitality but once you start getting stacks of those 2k and up damage each, you probably do. But you did mention Major Vitality in your other post, which is why I mentioned the pot thing. But I think we can all agree on one thing, revise class passives and stop the stacking of such powerful DoTs.
Like curse?1 -
Lichbourne90✭✭✭People defending bleeds here are either :
- Bad player that rely 100% on it to make kill
- People that lack of knowledge and hwo never met a comeptitive bleed build
When a light armor shield user is destroyed by bleed, you can claim it's OP.
Bleed destroy everyone, not only the tank they are supposed to counter.
Bleed damage is so high that it heavely hurt shields and light armor.
Nerf bleed damage by 33% minimum.
The old if you disagree with me your a bad player argument. Nice!10 - Bad player that rely 100% on it to make kill
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LeifErickson✭✭✭✭✭
✭Waffennacht wrote: »1. Nerf all sources of damage
2. Nerf tanky builds
3. Repeat
Nerf sorcs too.3 -
Lichbourne90✭✭✭Just pull a world of warcraft and make everyone the exact same stats with 0 build diversity in pvp. Doesn't matter what u wear your stats are based off ur item level and procs dont work0
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Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭EDIT: Deleted other quoteChilly-McFreeze wrote: »People defending bleeds here are either :- Bad player that rely 100% on it to make kill
- People that lack of knowledge and hwo never met a comeptitive bleed build
When a light armor shield user is destroyed by bleed, you can claim it's OP.
Bleed destroy everyone, not only the tank they are supposed to counter.
Bleed damage is so high that it heavely hurt shields and light armor.
Nerf bleed damage by 33% minimum.
Just gonna ask this here a second time: what makes bleed so OP against wards?
I'm guessing its the part where they decided to be a vamp, stacked shields, have no HoT on by choice, then have bleeds stacked on them + dawnbreaker and when they are stunned get melted by executioner after DB strips their shields.
Edited by Kadoin on August 26, 2018 4:41PM2 - Bad player that rely 100% on it to make kill
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Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I see a lot of entertaining back-and-forth in this thread but not enough people seem to understand the underlying issues at hand. People on the one side are screaming "bleed dmg OP" while the other side laughing "L2HoT bro" but almost everyone ignoring that the only reason bleed builds are meta is because it's one of the only build types that lives on FREE offense without sacrificing any survivability. Hence why they are so freaking strong in noCP BG's.
I invite you all to experiment with just how much damage you can pack into only DW heavy attack + Rending with enchants/poisons and procs, and then snigger evilly to yourself when you realize that you net gained resources doing it.
Edited by Solariken on August 26, 2018 5:09PM4 -
IZZEFlameLash✭✭✭✭✭
✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »To the people saying points into thick skinned helps and so does crit resist.
On my stam dk i run 3100 Crit resist and 56 points into thick skinned. The highest damage remember taking on my dk is nearly 10k over 4 ticks. on average i see 6k over 3 ticks, with 2-3 different bleeds in my feed.
Bleeds need adjusting.
So you are only protecting against a 41% crit DMG modifier? When Templars and nightblades are both getting 70-80%.IZZEFlameLash wrote: »IZZEFlameLash wrote: »WreckfulAbandon wrote: »
Put 3 of them together, 3k passive unresistable DPS. Pretty OK I suppose. Then add sloads, another 850, with active offense like a spammable, and then defiles to gimp your healing. All in all about 6k dps where your healing stacks are doing maybe 2k.
As the lord once said: That's alot of damage.
That's 3 different mechanics you're describing there man. Anyone who knows anything about PvP knows bleeds are strong but at the same time, I'm sure plenty notice the pattern in this thread... A bunch of DK mains complaining about what counters them hardest.
So which counters DK's the hardest, bleeds defiles or sloads? Cause saying "all 3, NERRRRRF" isn't a viable argument for nerfing bleeds. Plenty of things other than those 3 mechanics have put a crimp on "stand your ground" playstyle: emphasis on mobility, poisons, changes in block calculations, heavy armor nerfs.
Block+Major Vitality+Mending+Lingering Health+Troll King+healing skills (there are other things like CP, health regen, and set procs as well) needs a viable counter. You act like bleeds are on par with Shieldbreaker, which btw has existed unchanged for a long time now. And now with Defile sources nerfed and Befoul not working healing essentially got another buff. Bleeds are strong but fine, I'm fine with TTK being a bit lower, and yes for tanky DK's too. Cause you don't use defensive/sustain sets to reach BFG levels of damage, you have to build for it. Are we supposed to go for Dizzying Swing combos on blocking DK's? That's a sure way to end up in someone's 1vX clip.
I mean one of you even conceded that they could handle bleeds 1v1 but it's in Xv1 situations that they're OP...
That takes a whole lot to counter 1 button. Major Vitality requires pots to have reliable access but still have low up time on top of being on potion cooldown. Then if DK, 4k magicka to Major Mending and slotting Troll King that could have taken other sets just to have effective healing against it. This is all nice in ideal situation, but not gonna have Major Vitality (from Lingering) all the time for the duration of whole fight realistically where as bleeds are applied as simple as just using Rending Slashes and Light/Heavy attack.
Then again all that healing is keeping yourself topped off. It isn't magically stopping at only bleeds lol.
In real circumstance, you are basically on constant potion cd when you are using Immovability pots when outnumbered and occassional tri-pots. Then speed pots. So Major Vitality is basically out the window for the most part.
You are right that heals are not limited to bleeds but no other single player induced DoT require that much healing in this game. Nothing short of siege dots and stacked Sload's basically. And it does not change the fact that this one source of damage alone requires you to give up other options from pots forces you into losing defensive game. No other DoTs take me from full to 50 within 3 seconds. And those DoT build players don't stand around idly. I don't think you stand around idly as well. No other non-siege DoTs currently can do pressuring as effective as this. I'd rather have axe as a some mid way between sword and mace traits. Like half of each traits, this way, axes are still a good choice and axe bleed and Rending bleed don't stack and less stacks to deal with out in the open world in general.
Well you aren't locked to vitality pots; most of the QQ'ers in this thread have a nice access to major mending along with a passive that boosts their healing outside of a named buff.
And in some ways tri pots are still better than most due to the heal+recovery boost (why else are most stamina builds orcs if not for the health recovery boost).
Only thing they need to adjust for bleeds is to stop the dual axe stack and revise class passives to bring everyone up to the line with nightblades.
Well, 1 bleed, you might not need Major Vitality but once you start getting stacks of those 2k and up damage each, you probably do. But you did mention Major Vitality in your other post, which is why I mentioned the pot thing. But I think we can all agree on one thing, revise class passives and stop the stacking of such powerful DoTs.
Like curse?
Curse is not even dealing damage every single second for 4~6k (usual explosion damage and are resistance affected) while it is on you. If it did explode every single second, I'd be all for it not stacking. But then, why am I saying this when there are Sorc mains that can handle this. Nerf Sorc btw.Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel2 -
DarkAedin✭✭✭✭✭I see a lot of entertaining back-and-forth in this thread but not enough people seem to understand the underlying issues at hand. People on the one side are screaming "bleed dmg OP" while the other side laughing "L2HoT bro" but almost everyone ignoring that the only reason bleed builds are meta is because it's one of the only build types that lives on FREE offense without sacrificing any survivability. Hence why they are so freaking strong in noCP BG's.
I invite you all to experiment with just how much damage you can pack into only DW heavy attack + Rending with enchants/poisons and procs, and then snigger evilly to yourself when you realize that you net gained resources doing it.
My fire staff makes me do 8% more dmg to u, my electric staff sets u offballanced, and my ice staff snares you.
My bow dmg scales higher the further i stand from you
My maces ignore part of ur armor
My swords make my heal/hit harder
My dw bleeds.
The crowd who doesnt get bleeds isnt understanding that its also melee's only form of dot and its from melee weapons, not class skills, and we have to use axes for the "free" dot which means my other attacks wont be hitting as hard.
With an abundance of shield stackers and perma blockers, bleed mechanics are a neccesary evil.
And all u have to do is keep ur hots going to negate its dmg. Mountain out of an ant hill.5 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I see a lot of entertaining back-and-forth in this thread but not enough people seem to understand the underlying issues at hand. People on the one side are screaming "bleed dmg OP" while the other side laughing "L2HoT bro" but almost everyone ignoring that the only reason bleed builds are meta is because it's one of the only build types that lives on FREE offense without sacrificing any survivability. Hence why they are so freaking strong in noCP BG's.
I invite you all to experiment with just how much damage you can pack into only DW heavy attack + Rending with enchants/poisons and procs, and then snigger evilly to yourself when you realize that you net gained resources doing it.
My fire staff makes me do 8% more dmg to u, my electric staff sets u offballanced, and my ice staff snares you.
My bow dmg scales higher the further i stand from you
My maces ignore part of ur armor
My swords make my heal/hit harder
My dw bleeds.
The crowd who doesnt get bleeds isnt understanding that its also melee's only form of dot and its from melee weapons, not class skills, and we have to use axes for the "free" dot which means my other attacks wont be hitting as hard.
With an abundance of shield stackers and perma blockers, bleed mechanics are a neccesary evil.
And all u have to do is keep ur hots going to negate its dmg. Mountain out of an ant hill.
The reason its op is basically everything else is subpar to bleeds so running anything else is selfgimping, hence it needs nerfed.
PC EU
PvP only1 -
CyrusArya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Omg wheres the lol butten
Dude was like the first person kicked from the class discussion discords for throwing temper tantrums and calling everyone a “noob”. Hardly the sort of person to engage in a discussion with. But if I were to address him, I’d probably say something like damage shields don’t have resistances anyways so bleeds are simply nothing more then dots on them. If a light armor shield build is getting blown up by a dot build...any dot build...they are not shielding right and could stand to learn how to play. I main a mag sorc and never struggle vs bleeds. Neither do the good players on light armor shielding specs of any class. Always a competitive fight on both ends.Lichbourne90 wrote: »
The old if you disagree with me your a bad player argument. Nice!I see a lot of entertaining back-and-forth in this thread but not enough people seem to understand the underlying issues at hand. People on the one side are screaming "bleed dmg OP" while the other side laughing "L2HoT bro" but almost everyone ignoring that the only reason bleed builds are meta is because it's one of the only build types that lives on FREE offense without sacrificing any survivability. Hence why they are so freaking strong in noCP BG's.
I invite you all to experiment with just how much damage you can pack into only DW heavy attack + Rending with enchants/poisons and procs, and then snigger evilly to yourself when you realize that you net gained resources doing it.
Literally the only free damage you are talking about is the twin blade and blunt passive. It’s disingenuous to roll a dot from a skill+enchant/poison into that when you can get all of that on a staff...from range. More damage too. You are sacrificing survivability. It’s the opportunity cost of playing a ranged caster and of running sword and board. Having to play in melee range is inhenerently a more risky play style. Especially in medium armor such as my stamplar where you have neither a physical shield or a damage shield.The reason dual wield is popular in BGs is cus the game isn’t balanced around no CP at all. Things die a lot faster than they are supposed to. This is intentional because BGs are meant to be fast paced. So people opt for a “kill before you die since we’re on a timer anyways” model of buildcrafting. Dual wield is the damage oriented weapon type for stamina, and it is no stronger than the fire staff is in the current meta. There’s a reason casters have dominated the dueling scene since they made staves count as 2 set pieces.
Most importantly, and this is addressed to you and every single other QQer in this thread: no one competent dies to just bleeds. No one. It’s just that people who whine tend to assign blame and make excuses. They see a single bleed on their recap and chalk the L up to bleeds, conveniently ignoring everything else that goes into a fight from the other end. So go ahead. I invite you to que into some BGs against me and run around spamming nothing but heavy attack+rending. You can snigger yourself right into a 0-10 BG recap.8 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »People defending bleeds here are either :- Bad player that rely 100% on it to make kill
- People that lack of knowledge and hwo never met a comeptitive bleed build
When a light armor shield user is destroyed by bleed, you can claim it's OP.
Bleed destroy everyone, not only the tank they are supposed to counter.
Bleed damage is so high that it heavely hurt shields and light armor.
Nerf bleed damage by 33% minimum.
Just gonna ask this here a second time: what makes bleed so OP against wards?
The damage, the damage is too high.
It shouldn't do good damage on a 0 resistance shield, since it's supposed to be a counter to high resistance tank.0 - Bad player that rely 100% on it to make kill
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Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Omg wheres the lol butten
Dude was like the first person kicked from the class discussion discords for throwing temper tantrums and calling everyone a “noob”. Hardly the sort of person to engage in a discussion with. But if I were to address him, I’d probably say something like damage shields don’t have resistances anyways so bleeds are simply nothing more then dots on them. If a light armor shield build is getting blown up by a dot build...any dot build...they are not shielding right and could stand to learn how to play. I main a mag sorc and never struggle vs bleeds. Neither do the good players on light armor shielding specs of any class. Always a competitive fight on both ends.Lichbourne90 wrote: »
The old if you disagree with me your a bad player argument. Nice!I see a lot of entertaining back-and-forth in this thread but not enough people seem to understand the underlying issues at hand. People on the one side are screaming "bleed dmg OP" while the other side laughing "L2HoT bro" but almost everyone ignoring that the only reason bleed builds are meta is because it's one of the only build types that lives on FREE offense without sacrificing any survivability. Hence why they are so freaking strong in noCP BG's.
I invite you all to experiment with just how much damage you can pack into only DW heavy attack + Rending with enchants/poisons and procs, and then snigger evilly to yourself when you realize that you net gained resources doing it.
Literally the only free damage you are talking about is the twin blade and blunt passive. It’s disingenuous to roll a dot from a skill+enchant/poison into that when you can get all of that on a staff...from range. More damage too. You are sacrificing survivability. It’s the opportunity cost of playing a ranged caster and of running sword and board. Having to play in melee range is inhenerently a more risky play style. Especially in medium armor such as my stamplar where you have neither a physical shield or a damage shield.The reason dual wield is popular in BGs is cus the game isn’t balanced around no CP at all. Things die a lot faster than they are supposed to. This is intentional because BGs are meant to be fast paced. So people opt for a “kill before you die since we’re on a timer anyways” model of buildcrafting. Dual wield is the damage oriented weapon type for stamina, and it is no stronger than the fire staff is in the current meta. There’s a reason casters have dominated the dueling scene since they made staves count as 2 set pieces.
Most importantly, and this is addressed to you and every single other QQer in this thread: no one competent dies to just bleeds. No one. It’s just that people who whine tend to assign blame and make excuses. They see a single bleed on their recap and chalk the L up to bleeds, conveniently ignoring everything else that goes into a fight from the other end. So go ahead. I invite you to que into some BGs against me and run around spamming nothing but heavy attack+rending. You can snigger yourself right into a 0-10 BG recap.
This seems like a high-sodium dodge of the issue I raised - bc I already said way back in the thread that I think the damage is fine. The cost associated (or lack there of) is not.
Also nobody is buying this constant boo-hoo about how poor stamplars need their huge bleeds to be viable when stamplar is quietly the best BG stam spec in this meta.
Furthermore, everyone needs to stop acting like range is any significant advantage at all in BG's. By now almost everyone has caught on to the Swift and speed+HOT pot meta.
Also to you Arya, you mock my comment about heavy+Rending combos yet that's exactly what you and every other metahump stamplar do - jav into heavy + Rending and DBoS. Like, why act like I'm being silly when everyone knows what the most common combo is.5 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »People defending bleeds here are either :- Bad player that rely 100% on it to make kill
- People that lack of knowledge and hwo never met a comeptitive bleed build
When a light armor shield user is destroyed by bleed, you can claim it's OP.
Bleed destroy everyone, not only the tank they are supposed to counter.
Bleed damage is so high that it heavely hurt shields and light armor.
Nerf bleed damage by 33% minimum.
Just gonna ask this here a second time: what makes bleed so OP against wards?
The damage, the damage is too high.
It shouldn't do good damage on a 0 resistance shield, since it's supposed to be a counter to high resistance tank.
That makes little sense, the only possible way for anything to deal more damage to resistance builds than to 0 resistance is for the damage to scale upwards on resistance.... Which is completely crazy1 - Bad player that rely 100% on it to make kill
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Crixus8000✭✭✭✭✭
✭I see a lot of entertaining back-and-forth in this thread but not enough people seem to understand the underlying issues at hand. People on the one side are screaming "bleed dmg OP" while the other side laughing "L2HoT bro" but almost everyone ignoring that the only reason bleed builds are meta is because it's one of the only build types that lives on FREE offense without sacrificing any survivability. Hence why they are so freaking strong in noCP BG's.
I invite you all to experiment with just how much damage you can pack into only DW heavy attack + Rending with enchants/poisons and procs, and then snigger evilly to yourself when you realize that you net gained resources doing it.
I agree, bleed builds do insane dmg while also dealing the most dmg in my opinion.
My main issue with bleeds though is that they have no counter play. You can get a build with really high burst potential that can kill most people in 1 combo, but at least you can do things about that. Take a look at stamdens, they have amazing burst with dizzy, sub assault and dawnbreaker, inexperienced players get destroyed by this but people who know how to fight against them will block/roll or counter attack before the sub assault hits to ruin the combo. Bleeds have no counterplay apart from purge that only a magplar can do reliably and bleeds are cheaper than purge so they still win.
The only thing you can do against bleeds is stack heals but that's not enough, I don't see it as fair when a dmg source so powerful ignores everything, cost so little and can be stacked. I don't mind things dealing massive dmg and being powerful as long as you can actually use skill to fight against it, but bleeds just force everyone to stack loads of self healing and I don't think that's a good thing.
Pvp already has many proc sets, I like more skill based gameplay, not the most meta thing being free, unresistable dmg.
Edited by Crixus8000 on August 26, 2018 8:21PM3 -
WreckfulAbandon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Crixus8000 wrote: »I see a lot of entertaining back-and-forth in this thread but not enough people seem to understand the underlying issues at hand. People on the one side are screaming "bleed dmg OP" while the other side laughing "L2HoT bro" but almost everyone ignoring that the only reason bleed builds are meta is because it's one of the only build types that lives on FREE offense without sacrificing any survivability. Hence why they are so freaking strong in noCP BG's.
I invite you all to experiment with just how much damage you can pack into only DW heavy attack + Rending with enchants/poisons and procs, and then snigger evilly to yourself when you realize that you net gained resources doing it.
I agree, bleed builds do insane dmg while also dealing the most dmg in my opinion.
My main issue with bleeds though is that they have no counter play. You can get a build with really high burst potential that can kill most people in 1 combo, but at least you can do things about that. Take a look at stamdens, they have amazing burst with dizzy, sub assault and dawnbreaker, inexperienced players get destroyed by this but people who know how to fight against them will block/roll or counter attack before the sub assault hits to ruin the combo. Bleeds have no counterplay apart from purge that only a magplar can do reliably and bleeds are cheaper than purge so they still win.
The only thing you can do against bleeds is stack heals but that's not enough, I don't see it as fair when a dmg source so powerful ignores everything, cost so little and can be stacked. I don't mind things dealing massive dmg and being powerful as long as you can actually use skill to fight against it, but bleeds just force everyone to stack loads of self healing and I don't think that's a good thing.
As always the counter to pressure is not healing but counter pressure. If they are a super high damage build then they are also more susceptible to pressure. You have to have enough survival to buy time to go on the offensive - whether through shields, heals, or another combo of defensive methods. I play on every side of bleeds builds - bleed vs non-bleed, non-bleed vs bleed, bleed vs bleed, non vs non. They absolutely have their place in the game and do not warrant a nerf on their own. Too much in this game has been nerfed and it seems that this only increases calls for nerfs from the people that got nerfed.PC NA
All my comments are regarding PvP5 -
Crixus8000✭✭✭✭✭
✭WreckfulAbandon wrote: »
As always the counter to pressure is not healing but counter pressure. If they are a super high damage build then they are also more susceptible to pressure. You have to have enough survival to buy time to go on the offensive - whether through shields, heals, or another combo of defensive methods. I play on every side of bleeds builds - bleed vs non-bleed, non-bleed vs bleed, bleed vs bleed, non vs non. They absolutely have their place in the game and do not warrant a nerf on their own. Too much in this game has been nerfed and it seems that this only increases calls for nerfs from the people that got nerfed.
Yeah pressure can work too if you are also a dot or bleed build. Or if the person using bleeds is inexperienced.
The issue is though as others have mentioned is that bleed builds aren't weak in other areas to achieve their dmg like other high dmg builds are, since 2 of the bleeds are free and the other is very cheap it means they can build for high tankiness and recovery. So when it comes to racing I find it pretty hard when they are just as tanky as me and get free stacked dmg that is ignoring my defences and all I can do is use the slow dizzy swing that does not ignore theres.
I'm not a fan of nerfs. There is many things I think are extremely powerful but I wouldn't ask for a nerf, but I think bleeds are gamebreaking from my experience using them and fighting them in no cp.
4 -
Jjitsuboy98✭✭✭✭So is the problem mainly no cp? I never play bgs. I think bleeds and dots are a great way to play a Stam DK. As someone above mentioned things like a Stam Wardens burst is great against guys that aren't very good or lower levels. But take for example fighting a nightblade on a Stam warden. U have no good counter with the typical 2H and SnB dizzy setup. I started running a DW setup utilizing some axe bleeds and double dot posions with the skill blood craze. Combine that with sub assault and steel tornado for a cloak counter and the build is much more competitive in tough encounters especially against nblades. I don't think that's "cheese" I think it's a good idea. This is with solo CP cyrodil in mind though.
Also a set like sloads can be annoying when u are facing multiple sloaders. But as a solo player on a class with no burst and sustain it can help when u finally manage to get a sorc or mage blade in execute range and they pop their shields. But I don't play other styles of PVP so I can't really make a call on the no cp stuff. I feel like someone who runs by himself you always need to find the best way to survive and deal damage because you are also going up against multiple people who use powerful specs and gear setups. And I know the game shouldn't be balanced on solo players but that's what some people enjoy.1 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Omg wheres the lol butten
Dude was like the first person kicked from the class discussion discords for throwing temper tantrums and calling everyone a “noob”. Hardly the sort of person to engage in a discussion with. But if I were to address him, I’d probably say something like damage shields don’t have resistances anyways so bleeds are simply nothing more then dots on them. If a light armor shield build is getting blown up by a dot build...any dot build...they are not shielding right and could stand to learn how to play. I main a mag sorc and never struggle vs bleeds. Neither do the good players on light armor shielding specs of any class. Always a competitive fight on both ends.Lichbourne90 wrote: »
The old if you disagree with me your a bad player argument. Nice!I see a lot of entertaining back-and-forth in this thread but not enough people seem to understand the underlying issues at hand. People on the one side are screaming "bleed dmg OP" while the other side laughing "L2HoT bro" but almost everyone ignoring that the only reason bleed builds are meta is because it's one of the only build types that lives on FREE offense without sacrificing any survivability. Hence why they are so freaking strong in noCP BG's.
I invite you all to experiment with just how much damage you can pack into only DW heavy attack + Rending with enchants/poisons and procs, and then snigger evilly to yourself when you realize that you net gained resources doing it.
Literally the only free damage you are talking about is the twin blade and blunt passive. It’s disingenuous to roll a dot from a skill+enchant/poison into that when you can get all of that on a staff...from range. More damage too. You are sacrificing survivability. It’s the opportunity cost of playing a ranged caster and of running sword and board. Having to play in melee range is inhenerently a more risky play style. Especially in medium armor such as my stamplar where you have neither a physical shield or a damage shield.The reason dual wield is popular in BGs is cus the game isn’t balanced around no CP at all. Things die a lot faster than they are supposed to. This is intentional because BGs are meant to be fast paced. So people opt for a “kill before you die since we’re on a timer anyways” model of buildcrafting. Dual wield is the damage oriented weapon type for stamina, and it is no stronger than the fire staff is in the current meta. There’s a reason casters have dominated the dueling scene since they made staves count as 2 set pieces.
Most importantly, and this is addressed to you and every single other QQer in this thread: no one competent dies to just bleeds. No one. It’s just that people who whine tend to assign blame and make excuses. They see a single bleed on their recap and chalk the L up to bleeds, conveniently ignoring everything else that goes into a fight from the other end. So go ahead. I invite you to que into some BGs against me and run around spamming nothing but heavy attack+rending. You can snigger yourself right into a 0-10 BG recap.
This seems like a high-sodium dodge of the issue I raised - bc I already said way back in the thread that I think the damage is fine. The cost associated (or lack there of) is not.
Also nobody is buying this constant boo-hoo about how poor stamplars need their huge bleeds to be viable when stamplar is quietly the best BG stam spec in this meta.
Furthermore, everyone needs to stop acting like range is any significant advantage at all in BG's. By now almost everyone has caught on to the Swift and speed+HOT pot meta.
Also to you Arya, you mock my comment about heavy+Rending combos yet that's exactly what you and every other metahump stamplar do - jav into heavy + Rending and DBoS. Like, why act like I'm being silly when everyone knows what the most common combo is.
If the combo is so common, how do you get wrecked by it? I don't know about you, but if 99.999% of people doing something, I expect it to happen the moment I see them and already block, roll, or go on the offensive.
EDIT: I should also so I have NEVER been killed by that combination.Edited by Kadoin on August 27, 2018 6:01AM1 -
Sun7dance✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I think all these dots are the answer against the huge lag in PvP.
I'm sure you all know that you suddenly cannot hit your target because of lag or asynchrony. In those situations dots are relly helpfull, coz they keep up the pressure on your target.
So even stamblades change more and more to dotblades. With steeltornado it is the best answer against the bad performance.
Sad but true!Edited by Sun7dance on August 27, 2018 6:27AMPS5|EU3 -
KingExecration✭✭✭✭
Omg wheres the lol butten
Dude was like the first person kicked from the class discussion discords for throwing temper tantrums and calling everyone a “noob”. Hardly the sort of person to engage in a discussion with. But if I were to address him, I’d probably say something like damage shields don’t have resistances anyways so bleeds are simply nothing more then dots on them. If a light armor shield build is getting blown up by a dot build...any dot build...they are not shielding right and could stand to learn how to play. I main a mag sorc and never struggle vs bleeds. Neither do the good players on light armor shielding specs of any class. Always a competitive fight on both ends.Lichbourne90 wrote: »
The old if you disagree with me your a bad player argument. Nice!I see a lot of entertaining back-and-forth in this thread but not enough people seem to understand the underlying issues at hand. People on the one side are screaming "bleed dmg OP" while the other side laughing "L2HoT bro" but almost everyone ignoring that the only reason bleed builds are meta is because it's one of the only build types that lives on FREE offense without sacrificing any survivability. Hence why they are so freaking strong in noCP BG's.
I invite you all to experiment with just how much damage you can pack into only DW heavy attack + Rending with enchants/poisons and procs, and then snigger evilly to yourself when you realize that you net gained resources doing it.
Literally the only free damage you are talking about is the twin blade and blunt passive. It’s disingenuous to roll a dot from a skill+enchant/poison into that when you can get all of that on a staff...from range. More damage too. You are sacrificing survivability. It’s the opportunity cost of playing a ranged caster and of running sword and board. Having to play in melee range is inhenerently a more risky play style. Especially in medium armor such as my stamplar where you have neither a physical shield or a damage shield.The reason dual wield is popular in BGs is cus the game isn’t balanced around no CP at all. Things die a lot faster than they are supposed to. This is intentional because BGs are meant to be fast paced. So people opt for a “kill before you die since we’re on a timer anyways” model of buildcrafting. Dual wield is the damage oriented weapon type for stamina, and it is no stronger than the fire staff is in the current meta. There’s a reason casters have dominated the dueling scene since they made staves count as 2 set pieces.
Most importantly, and this is addressed to you and every single other QQer in this thread: no one competent dies to just bleeds. No one. It’s just that people who whine tend to assign blame and make excuses. They see a single bleed on their recap and chalk the L up to bleeds, conveniently ignoring everything else that goes into a fight from the other end. So go ahead. I invite you to que into some BGs against me and run around spamming nothing but heavy attack+rending. You can snigger yourself right into a 0-10 BG recap.
This seems like a high-sodium dodge of the issue I raised - bc I already said way back in the thread that I think the damage is fine. The cost associated (or lack there of) is not.
Also nobody is buying this constant boo-hoo about how poor stamplars need their huge bleeds to be viable when stamplar is quietly the best BG stam spec in this meta.
Furthermore, everyone needs to stop acting like range is any significant advantage at all in BG's. By now almost everyone has caught on to the Swift and speed+HOT pot meta.
Also to you Arya, you mock my comment about heavy+Rending combos yet that's exactly what you and every other metahump stamplar do - jav into heavy + Rending and DBoS. Like, why act like I'm being silly when everyone knows what the most common combo is.
If the combo is so common, how do you get wrecked by it? I don't know about you, but if 99.999% of people doing something, I expect it to happen the moment I see them and already block, roll, or go on the offensive.
EDIT: I should also so I have NEVER been killed by that combination.
The only times I can say I die to that combo is when the stupid javelin bug happens and I start sliding around like I’m at a water park.2 -
xeNNNNN✭✭✭✭✭
✭In Battlegrounds yes they are busted and gross in Cyrodil CP side of things, not so much.Ah, e-communities - the "pinnacle" of the internet............yeah, right.0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭.
Hrm...
My builds don't run procs in this meta.
Most are dodgeable (skoria and zaan obviously not - but Zaan has range limits)
You'll find bleeds to be more common soon I think0 -
IZZEFlameLash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Waffennacht wrote: ».
Hrm...
My builds don't run procs in this meta.
Most are dodgeable (skoria and zaan obviously not - but Zaan has range limits)
You'll find bleeds to be more common soon I think
You may not. But others will. Easy BG builds do seem to all revolve around proc sets. Part of the reason why I am not interested in BGs. It's something I'd do only when enough people bug me to.Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: ».
Hrm...
My builds don't run procs in this meta.
Most are dodgeable (skoria and zaan obviously not - but Zaan has range limits)
You'll find bleeds to be more common soon I think
You may not. But others will. Easy BG builds do seem to all revolve around proc sets. Part of the reason why I am not interested in BGs. It's something I'd do only when enough people bug me to.
I am pretty much exclusively BG. Sloads, Skoria, Zaan, Caluurion are really the only "proc" sets used.
When players catch on that everything is dodgeable at range (except Soul) then the popularity of these sets will drop significantly0 -
milllaurie✭✭✭✭Last time I checked theres this skill called Purge available to ALL CLASSES. You can find it under "Alliance war" - "Support". It not only removes 2 negative effects for you - it cleanses your group too.
I can't believe people are ignoring it for most of the time.
Next time take a good look what that unkillable warden is running - oh right, that's purge.
Farmer group in a resource tower - at least one of them has purge slotted.
I could never say bleeds are op in my stamblade. On squishy toons any damage is op. But when running my dk tank I really don't like any damage that ignores my resistances, so I like to have a reliable way to cleanse myself.
For those who want to say "oh but I don't have a slot for purge" - ditch something then. Ditch shuffle, or anything it's completely up to you. Purging saves your butt. You have a tool to counter bleeds and really any dots. You can choose to use it or not.3 -
Nihang✭✭✭milllaurie wrote: »Last time I checked theres this skill called Purge available to ALL CLASSES. You can find it under "Alliance war" - "Support". It not only removes 2 negative effects for you - it cleanses your group too.
I can't believe people are ignoring it for most of the time.
Next time take a good look what that unkillable warden is running - oh right, that's purge.
Farmer group in a resource tower - at least one of them has purge slotted.
I could never say bleeds are op in my stamblade. On squishy toons any damage is op. But when running my dk tank I really don't like any damage that ignores my resistances, so I like to have a reliable way to cleanse myself.
For those who want to say "oh but I don't have a slot for purge" - ditch something then. Ditch shuffle, or anything it's completely up to you. Purging saves your butt. You have a tool to counter bleeds and really any dots. You can choose to use it or not.
I think you forgot to add "/s".#LOVEPALACE3
