Bleeds Are Overpowered

Minno

LeifErickson wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

But other than that the counters are there outside of purge/cloak.

What are the counters you speak of?

stop slotting bloodspawn thinking its going to BIS when all your fights are against bleeds that ignore the resists from that set?

Maybe get troll king instead? Or roll minor/major protection? Have a templar buddy for free synergy purges?
Dodge roll the melee attacks to avoid bleed procs? LOS and cloak the dots entirely?

Stop pretending there aren't things you can do to adjust.

None of those are realistic counters at all and you know it.

You can't take off bloodspawn and put on troll king? Can't run impreg? Don't have a buddy running transmutation?

Doesn't matter anyway, most players aren't dying to bleeds alone, they are dying to a competent player pressuring you with other burst and trying to explain blame their player-death on a singular source.

Glory

Minno wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

But other than that the counters are there outside of purge/cloak.

What are the counters you speak of?

stop slotting bloodspawn thinking its going to BIS when all your fights are against bleeds that ignore the resists from that set?

Maybe get troll king instead? Or roll minor/major protection? Have a templar buddy for free synergy purges?
Dodge roll the melee attacks to avoid bleed procs? LOS and cloak the dots entirely?

Stop pretending there aren't things you can do to adjust.

None of those are realistic counters at all and you know it.

You can't take off bloodspawn and put on troll king? Can't run impreg? Don't have a buddy running transmutation?

Doesn't matter anyway, most players aren't dying to bleeds alone, they are dying to a competent player pressuring you with other burst and trying to explain blame their player-death on a singular source.

There's a reason these competent players you reference are all running Rending Slashes, axe builds... Anyone who follows a game's meta sees how setups shift towards things that are the most unbalanced/uncounterable/beneficial.

Examples:

• Current meta shift from 2H primary builds to DW builds due to 2H nerfs, difficulty countering bleeds, and S2W
• Desert Rose having widespread popularity, then switch to Lich
• Magicka sorcerer rune cage/frags rise/fall shows different levels of class popularity

Sure, there are "counters" to bleed builds, including yours but also things like "stack with 50 people" if you'd like to exaggerate. It doesn't counter the fact that bleeds are far too effective in their current state.

Qbiken

We´re already in a meta where tankiness and healing is severely overperforming. Defiles recently got nerfed in terms of duration, which boosts this heal/tank meta even more. Bleeds is one of many necessary tools to deal with these builds. I know ZOS has said healing is getting addressed in update 20, so if healing is nerfed then I agree that bleeds can be tuned down.

LeifErickson

Qbiken wrote: »

We´re already in a meta where tankiness and healing is severely overperforming. Defiles recently got nerfed in terms of duration, which boosts this heal/tank meta even more. Bleeds is one of many necessary tools to deal with these builds. I know ZOS has said healing is getting addressed in update 20, so if healing is nerfed then I agree that bleeds can be tuned down.

Healing is not overperforming and neither is tanking. Both of those things have been nerfed patch after patch over and over again with no nerfs to defile. That's why defile was nerfed (only slightly too) this patch.

Aztlan

If you nerf Rend, there will be little reason to run duel wield in PvP, outside of a few people running Shrouded Daggers or Blade Cloak. Rend is the best skill in the duel wield kit, for both PvE and PvP. Maybe you should be calling for buffs to your healing skills.

Qbiken

LeifErickson wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

We´re already in a meta where tankiness and healing is severely overperforming. Defiles recently got nerfed in terms of duration, which boosts this heal/tank meta even more. Bleeds is one of many necessary tools to deal with these builds. I know ZOS has said healing is getting addressed in update 20, so if healing is nerfed then I agree that bleeds can be tuned down.

Healing is not overperforming and neither is tanking. Both of those things have been nerfed patch after patch over and over again with no nerfs to defile. That's why defile was nerfed (only slightly too) this patch.

The amount of in-comming damage you can reduce is insane if you know how damage mitigation works (not referring to you specifically, just generalizing) and same thing goes for healing. I don´t deny defiles were overperforming, but healing is overtuned in it´s current state as well.

LeifErickson

Qbiken wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

We´re already in a meta where tankiness and healing is severely overperforming. Defiles recently got nerfed in terms of duration, which boosts this heal/tank meta even more. Bleeds is one of many necessary tools to deal with these builds. I know ZOS has said healing is getting addressed in update 20, so if healing is nerfed then I agree that bleeds can be tuned down.

Healing is not overperforming and neither is tanking. Both of those things have been nerfed patch after patch over and over again with no nerfs to defile. That's why defile was nerfed (only slightly too) this patch.

The amount of in-comming damage you can reduce is insane if you know how damage mitigation works (not referring to you specifically, just generalizing) and same thing goes for healing. I don´t deny defiles were overperforming, but healing is overtuned in it´s current state as well.

But how is healing overtuned? I have seen nothing that makes me think that on NA PC.

Glory

Aztlan wrote: »

If you nerf Rend, there will be little reason to run duel wield in PvP, outside of a few people running Shrouded Daggers or Blade Cloak. Rend is the best skill in the duel wield kit, for both PvE and PvP. Maybe you should be calling for buffs to your healing skills.

Have you heard of our lord and saviour, Spin to Win?

LegendaryMage

It seems to me some players in this thread might be confusing bleeds with other damage over time effects.

You see, if someone is running a DOT build, that doesn't mean that most of the damage is coming from pure 'bleeds', you have to understand that bleeds and oblivion damage over time (from any source) is one thing, damage over time from skills like master's dual wield is another.

Those CAN and ARE affected by your resistances so if you're fighting someone with a lot of DOTs, in addition to having a competent setup yourself, you also need to fight them with a hit & run playstyle so you avoid them putting all of that on you.

Do not stand there in front of the bleedblade while he slowly applies one DOT after another in addition to proc'ing axe bleeds, make your enemy work real hard to have more than 1-2 on you at any time.

CyrusArya

Bleeds are very strong, but I don’t think they are overpowered. You counter bleeds the same way you counter any dot builds or dots...you heal through them and apply counter pressure. Mechanically, bleeds don’t function any differently than other dots besides ignoring armor resists. A lot of ppl are arguing that fighting bleeds while outnumbered is tough. Fighting a ton of things is tough when outnumbered. Bleeds exist as a counter to block casting and tanky specs, and that is their purpose. Ever try killing a tanky blocky healy mDK, magplar, or stamden with a dizzy swing build? It’s magnitudes more frustrating than fighting a bleed spec as anything. Between the purpose of bleeds in PvP and also their role in PvE, I highly doubt zos is inclined to nerf it without looking at the big picture and making appropriate changes elsewhere to compensate.

The main counter arguments I have for a nerf to bleeds are this.

1.) It’s what keeps dual wield viable, more true now than ever before. 2h and sword&board are significantly stronger both on the passive and active skills if you remove bleeds from the equation. For the sake of build diversity, bleeds have to be strong.

2.) Some classes, such as Stamplar and Stam sorc, rely on bleed damage to be viable and competitive. These are classes designed around dot damage that synergize with the dual wield kit, stamplar especially. Every other class runs 2h and sword and board significantly better. If there is a nerf to bleeds, both these pressure based classes have to be heavily compensated and buffed to remain competitive with the bursty and/or tanky stam specs.

So between the fact that bleeds are a counter to tanky specs, the build diversity, and the necessity of the damage type for certain builds to be competitive....I think bleeds have a place and are fine. A nerf would have to come with compensation elsewhere.

Syncronaut

You know you can just block attacks?

A very simple was to counter bleed users is to block 90% of time and damage them 10% of that time. With a dot if posible.

There are options like this:
Templar - Sun Shield + Radiant Glory
Dragonknight - Engulfing Flames + Inferno + Volatile Armor + Obsidian Shard
Sorcerer - Kite like a mad person
Nightblade - Shadowy Disguise is all you need
Warden - Ice Fortress + Arctic Blast + Crystallized Slab (you have to kite and enemy kills itself over time)

Minno

CyrusArya wrote: »

Bleeds are very strong, but I don’t think they are overpowered. You counter bleeds the same way you counter any dot builds or dots...you heal through them and apply counter pressure. Mechanically, bleeds don’t function any differently than other dots besides ignoring armor resists. A lot of ppl are arguing that fighting bleeds while outnumbered is tough. Fighting a ton of things is tough when outnumbered. Bleeds exist as a counter to block casting and tanky specs, and that is their purpose. Ever try killing a tanky blocky healy mDK, magplar, or stamden with a dizzy swing build? It’s magnitudes more frustrating than fighting a bleed spec as anything. Between the purpose of bleeds in PvP and also their role in PvE, I highly doubt zos is inclined to nerf it without looking at the big picture and making appropriate changes elsewhere to compensate.

The main counter arguments I have for a nerf to bleeds are this.

1.) It’s what keeps dual wield viable, more true now than ever before. 2h and sword&board are significantly stronger both on the passive and active skills if you remove bleeds from the equation. For the sake of build diversity, bleeds have to be strong.

2.) Some classes, such as Stamplar and Stam sorc, rely on bleed damage to be viable and competitive. These are classes designed around dot damage that synergize with the dual wield kit, stamplar especially. Every other class runs 2h and sword and board significantly better. If there is a nerf to bleeds, both these pressure based classes have to be heavily compensated and buffed to remain competitive with the bursty and/or tanky stam specs.

So between the fact that bleeds are a counter to tanky specs, the build diversity, and the necessity of the damage type for certain builds to be competitive....I think bleeds have a place and are fine. A nerf would have to come with compensation elsewhere.

Agreed!

Minno

Syncronaut wrote: »

You know you can just block attacks?

A very simple was to counter bleed users is to block 90% of time and damage them 10% of that time. With a dot if posible.

There are options like this:
Templar - Sun Shield + Radiant Glory
Dragonknight - Engulfing Flames + Inferno + Volatile Armor + Obsidian Shard
Sorcerer - Kite like a mad person
Nightblade - Shadowy Disguise is all you need
Warden - Ice Fortress + Arctic Blast + Crystallized Slab (you have to kite and enemy kills itself over time)

blocking only helps on the initial hit of a bleed based ability. And that initial hit isn't a bleed but physical damage so armor values/blocking helps there. The bleed is still applied unless you dodge the initial hit.

Glory

Syncronaut wrote: »

You know you can just block attacks?

A very simple was to counter bleed users is to block 90% of time and damage them 10% of that time. With a dot if posible.

There are options like this:
Templar - Sun Shield + Radiant Glory
Dragonknight - Engulfing Flames + Inferno + Volatile Armor + Obsidian Shard
Sorcerer - Kite like a mad person
Nightblade - Shadowy Disguise is all you need
Warden - Ice Fortress + Arctic Blast + Crystallized Slab (you have to kite and enemy kills itself over time)

This is so wrong it's amazing...

Solariken

Glory wrote: »

Also, the presence of too many debuffs makes cleansing fairly unrealistic.

As other's have pointed out, it's crazy to think it's balanced that rending slashes applies 2 debuffs with barely any resource cost, but cleanses cost ridiculous amounts. The debuff:cleanse ratio is out of whack.

Defense should always cost more than offense, it's basically a pillar of good combat design.

Glory wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Bleeds are reduced by percentage based mitigation and are subject to crits therefore impen plays a larger role in mitigating bleeds. Minor maim as well.

Current meta most builds are stacking armor. But it ignores physical resist and dots are really efficient against shields so..... Yea. Not surprised everyone is having issues with bleeds but trying to blame it on bleeds.

I think I maybe saw only one or two builds rolling 20% into thick skin and higher than 3k crit resists? And with everyone dropping wizard bleeds are looking better this patch generally speaking.

Master weapons on the other hand might be needed to tune down. And maybe not being able to stack 2 axe procs from DW/2H. But other than that the counters are there outside of purge/cloak.

I play a build setup with better than those stats you suggest, and can definitely say that fighting against capable opponents the bleed damage present consistently tops my incoming damage.

Rending slashes alone crits over 1200 DoTs on me, and I have plenty of percentage based mitigation (major protection, transmutation, impen, what have you). Reading Leif's post, he mentions that the issue is that the damage on bleeds is high enough that 2-3 on you at a time is fairly insurmountable. I agree, as having three 1200 DoT ticks rolling against one person is 3600 effective DPS on top of other damage (spammables etc.), and that's not even considering the other DoT procs.

Minno wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

But other than that the counters are there outside of purge/cloak.

What are the counters you speak of?

stop slotting bloodspawn thinking its going to BIS when all your fights are against bleeds that ignore the resists from that set?

Maybe get troll king instead? Or roll minor/major protection? Have a templar buddy for free synergy purges?
Dodge roll the melee attacks to avoid bleed procs? LOS and cloak the dots entirely?

Stop pretending there aren't things you can do to adjust.

As I mentioned above, I have been in situations where I have troll king (from an ally), major protection, transmutation, and my own purifies. Yes, they are more effective than say bloodspawn in "countering" the bleed damage, but Leif's post is about how bleeds in particular are far too effective currently in the damage:cost:uptime ratio.

The bold is correct. The DPS potential of bleeds is fine, but the resource/GCD cost are not appropriately matched to that damage potential.

Brutusmax1mus

Syncronaut wrote: »

You know you can just block attacks?

A very simple was to counter bleed users is to block 90% of time and damage them 10% of that time. With a dot if posible.

There are options like this:
Templar - Sun Shield + Radiant Glory
Dragonknight - Engulfing Flames + Inferno + Volatile Armor + Obsidian Shard
Sorcerer - Kite like a mad person
Nightblade - Shadowy Disguise is all you need
Warden - Ice Fortress + Arctic Blast + Crystallized Slab (you have to kite and enemy kills itself over time)

This guy's serious?

Drakkdjinn

I'll leave this here:

Kaladin Chalhoub ran the numbers and found sloads outperforms master DW in dps, not sure how your chart above is more relevant than that.

WW bleeds got buffed this patch with gear & now they can reapply a devastating dot by spamming left click.

PotL is *** amazing.

Minno

Solariken wrote: »

Glory wrote: »

Also, the presence of too many debuffs makes cleansing fairly unrealistic.

As other's have pointed out, it's crazy to think it's balanced that rending slashes applies 2 debuffs with barely any resource cost, but cleanses cost ridiculous amounts. The debuff:cleanse ratio is out of whack.

Defense should always cost more than offense, it's basically a pillar of good combat design.

Glory wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Bleeds are reduced by percentage based mitigation and are subject to crits therefore impen plays a larger role in mitigating bleeds. Minor maim as well.

Current meta most builds are stacking armor. But it ignores physical resist and dots are really efficient against shields so..... Yea. Not surprised everyone is having issues with bleeds but trying to blame it on bleeds.

I think I maybe saw only one or two builds rolling 20% into thick skin and higher than 3k crit resists? And with everyone dropping wizard bleeds are looking better this patch generally speaking.

Master weapons on the other hand might be needed to tune down. And maybe not being able to stack 2 axe procs from DW/2H. But other than that the counters are there outside of purge/cloak.

I play a build setup with better than those stats you suggest, and can definitely say that fighting against capable opponents the bleed damage present consistently tops my incoming damage.

Rending slashes alone crits over 1200 DoTs on me, and I have plenty of percentage based mitigation (major protection, transmutation, impen, what have you). Reading Leif's post, he mentions that the issue is that the damage on bleeds is high enough that 2-3 on you at a time is fairly insurmountable. I agree, as having three 1200 DoT ticks rolling against one person is 3600 effective DPS on top of other damage (spammables etc.), and that's not even considering the other DoT procs.

Minno wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

But other than that the counters are there outside of purge/cloak.

What are the counters you speak of?

stop slotting bloodspawn thinking its going to BIS when all your fights are against bleeds that ignore the resists from that set?

Maybe get troll king instead? Or roll minor/major protection? Have a templar buddy for free synergy purges?
Dodge roll the melee attacks to avoid bleed procs? LOS and cloak the dots entirely?

Stop pretending there aren't things you can do to adjust.

As I mentioned above, I have been in situations where I have troll king (from an ally), major protection, transmutation, and my own purifies. Yes, they are more effective than say bloodspawn in "countering" the bleed damage, but Leif's post is about how bleeds in particular are far too effective currently in the damage:cost:uptime ratio.

The bold is correct. The DPS potential of bleeds is fine, but the resource/GCD cost are not appropriately matched to that damage potential.

though the GCD ignoring nature of DOTS is kinda the main reason of using them. If they had a punishing GCD most players wouldnt use them, because applying 3-4 dots already costs 3-4 seconds of GCDs (IDK how more punishing you can get than that lol)

And in Glory's post that was quoted, having ALOT of defense mitigation does only goes so far outside of block/major protection. So then things like bleeds feel like they are overpowered but that's only because, unless you give up dmg/sustain for ALOT of defensive stats, you will only have between 60-80% total mitigation in both CP/nCP pvp (mostly because of battlespirit, which is also nerfing bleed damage by 50%).

That would also explain why the better counters are healing/purge/LOS/Offensive pressure being universally mentioned. Your healing can crit for 50% modifier, purge from a teammate helps wipe off some debuffs without ripping into your GCD use (though I agree that abilities shouldn't have multiple debuffs attached to it if purge is going to have 2-5 debuff caps), and LOS ensures the dots applied are either failing to hit you initially or your reposition to allow your main hots to counter the bleeds so you can save some GCD on offense when the window presents itself (which is why HOTs are considered the hard counter to DOTs).

Players/builds are using DOTs/bleeds:
- because it helps them passively remain on offense via the GCD ignoring nature of the duration
- because other players don't use LOS tactics to avoid targets from stacking DOTS.

So effectively they feel inflated but not all the classes have escape abilities either so the perception of bleeds varies across classes (why magplars might feel bleeds are tough despite having purge, or DKs feel bleeds are too OP but classes like stamplar, stam sorc, wardens, and nightblades feel bleeds are ok because they can move+apply pressure).

Thogard

DoTs should absolutely outDPS burst... that’s the whole point of using them.

Master DW is a tad too strong though, especially in no CP, and especially when stacked with sloads or MA.

If master DW bonus couldn’t Crit, it wouldn’t be as big a deal.

Stigant

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Bleeds are too strong right now. It finishes off non-tanks within few seconds and tanks a bit longer. It's quite funny to watch 2 bleed builds fight each other. It is a contest of who gets the axe proc first and it goes into the favor of the one who gets it and the person that has DoT on them just suddenly dies unable to heal even. You may say it is a tank counter or something, but just like Sload's, it hurts non-tanks even more. Also hilarious to watch how applying bleed and then DBoSing finishes off most non-HA wearers (because of inherent smaller health pool and less resistance to resist DBoS damage). Very balance. Wow.

in every MMO I played, whatever was a counter against tanks was also working well against nonTanks.
It's that simple, you build for something else than Tanking, you 're suffering the full effect of other people's attacks and offensive effects, counter to tanks just makes tanks ability to deal with the particular effect very hard and that's the way it should be...
I don't understand why people can't comprehend the fact that counter against Tank actually work against them as well and ask for nerfs... you should have as hard time dealing with counter against a Tank as the Tank himself.

Joy_Division

I'm fine with Rending Slashes being a strong skill and putting a lot of pressure on opponents. This skill is way too cheap though for what it does.

I have more of an issue with everything else being over-nerfed and making that tactic so disproportionately strong.

Waffennacht

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'm fine with Rending Slashes being a strong skill and putting a lot of pressure on opponents. This skill is way too cheap though for what it does.

I have more of an issue with everything else being over-nerfed and making that tactic so disproportionately strong.

@Joy_Division we've both been playing long enough to know, every QQ gets them to Nerf it, and in ZoS' mind, there is no such thing as an "over Nerf"

Personally, I find lack of accessibility to be more OP than any single mechanic or ability.

Sloads creation stemmed from an exact result of ZoS' wanting tanky builds to be punished; bleeds, while effective against all builds really, are in-line with that same mentality directly.

Personally, I think bleeds, roll dodge, and less debuffs are a direct result of ZoS promoting medium armor - mainly due to the feedback of medium under performing.

The ONLY effective counter to Stam sorc + swift dodge bow + DW was an undodgeable ranged hard CC and execute, well with that long gone... Medium has few, if any counters

Glory

Minno wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Glory wrote: »

Also, the presence of too many debuffs makes cleansing fairly unrealistic.

As other's have pointed out, it's crazy to think it's balanced that rending slashes applies 2 debuffs with barely any resource cost, but cleanses cost ridiculous amounts. The debuff:cleanse ratio is out of whack.

Defense should always cost more than offense, it's basically a pillar of good combat design.

Glory wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Bleeds are reduced by percentage based mitigation and are subject to crits therefore impen plays a larger role in mitigating bleeds. Minor maim as well.

Current meta most builds are stacking armor. But it ignores physical resist and dots are really efficient against shields so..... Yea. Not surprised everyone is having issues with bleeds but trying to blame it on bleeds.

I think I maybe saw only one or two builds rolling 20% into thick skin and higher than 3k crit resists? And with everyone dropping wizard bleeds are looking better this patch generally speaking.

Master weapons on the other hand might be needed to tune down. And maybe not being able to stack 2 axe procs from DW/2H. But other than that the counters are there outside of purge/cloak.

I play a build setup with better than those stats you suggest, and can definitely say that fighting against capable opponents the bleed damage present consistently tops my incoming damage.

Rending slashes alone crits over 1200 DoTs on me, and I have plenty of percentage based mitigation (major protection, transmutation, impen, what have you). Reading Leif's post, he mentions that the issue is that the damage on bleeds is high enough that 2-3 on you at a time is fairly insurmountable. I agree, as having three 1200 DoT ticks rolling against one person is 3600 effective DPS on top of other damage (spammables etc.), and that's not even considering the other DoT procs.

Minno wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

But other than that the counters are there outside of purge/cloak.

What are the counters you speak of?

stop slotting bloodspawn thinking its going to BIS when all your fights are against bleeds that ignore the resists from that set?

Maybe get troll king instead? Or roll minor/major protection? Have a templar buddy for free synergy purges?
Dodge roll the melee attacks to avoid bleed procs? LOS and cloak the dots entirely?

Stop pretending there aren't things you can do to adjust.

As I mentioned above, I have been in situations where I have troll king (from an ally), major protection, transmutation, and my own purifies. Yes, they are more effective than say bloodspawn in "countering" the bleed damage, but Leif's post is about how bleeds in particular are far too effective currently in the damage:cost:uptime ratio.

The bold is correct. The DPS potential of bleeds is fine, but the resource/GCD cost are not appropriately matched to that damage potential.

though the GCD ignoring nature of DOTS is kinda the main reason of using them. If they had a punishing GCD most players wouldnt use them, because applying 3-4 dots already costs 3-4 seconds of GCDs (IDK how more punishing you can get than that lol)

And in Glory's post that was quoted, having ALOT of defense mitigation does only goes so far outside of block/major protection. So then things like bleeds feel like they are overpowered but that's only because, unless you give up dmg/sustain for ALOT of defensive stats, you will only have between 60-80% total mitigation in both CP/nCP pvp (mostly because of battlespirit, which is also nerfing bleed damage by 50%).

That would also explain why the better counters are healing/purge/LOS/Offensive pressure being universally mentioned. Your healing can crit for 50% modifier, purge from a teammate helps wipe off some debuffs without ripping into your GCD use (though I agree that abilities shouldn't have multiple debuffs attached to it if purge is going to have 2-5 debuff caps), and LOS ensures the dots applied are either failing to hit you initially or your reposition to allow your main hots to counter the bleeds so you can save some GCD on offense when the window presents itself (which is why HOTs are considered the hard counter to DOTs).

Players/builds are using DOTs/bleeds:
- because it helps them passively remain on offense via the GCD ignoring nature of the duration
- because other players don't use LOS tactics to avoid targets from stacking DOTS.

So effectively they feel inflated but not all the classes have escape abilities either so the perception of bleeds varies across classes (why magplars might feel bleeds are tough despite having purge, or DKs feel bleeds are too OP but classes like stamplar, stam sorc, wardens, and nightblades feel bleeds are ok because they can move+apply pressure).

There are two issues I have with all your arguments on this post Minno:

1. If there are as many debuffs present attached to seemingly every skill in the game (exaggeration but not far off...),, some skills having 3 debuffs (not counting sets/poisons, etc.) then you are 100% correct in the fact that debuff caps are hugely imbalanced. Also, access to truly accessible purges (ignoring cloak and certain sets sure) is limited to either 1) being a templar and using an expensive skill; 2) telling someone they need to play with a templar buddy?? 3) using a super expensive alliance war skill 4) spamming a shouldn't-really-be-spammed netch on mag warden.
2. Your solutions have been not directly addressing the argument that bleeds in particular are overperforming. Yeah, sure it's a great idea in general to run troll king or LOS. Telling someone LOS is a counter to bleeds is silly, as LOS is a counter to everything. You could jump from LOS as an argument to "just don't fight and only siege from the safety of keeps" as a counter to bleeds. Sure, this fixes your problem of bleeds being overtuned, but does it address the issue?

godchucknzilla

Bleeds are currently over performing. Especially with master weapons.

ak_pvp

Qbiken wrote: »

We´re already in a meta where tankiness and healing is severely overperforming. Defiles recently got nerfed in terms of duration, which boosts this heal/tank meta even more. Bleeds is one of many necessary tools to deal with these builds. I know ZOS has said healing is getting addressed in update 20, so if healing is nerfed then I agree that bleeds can be tuned down.

Tankiness is underperforming. EIther you have no damage or you aren't a tank and can be killed easily.

brandonv516

Bleeds are insane. I guess they could be looked at as "OP" depending on who you watch use them or what sets are being used.

Someone above said that a player using bleeds is sacrificing burst. Not entirely true. I've watched many good players go from their deadly bleeds, switch bars and set up a sweet burst combo.

Also I'll put this out there: just because something is a "pain" to farm does not mean it should overperform.

Bleeds likely need a tweak.

SilverWF

Wonder, if there anything, that wasn't on the forums with "(thing) overpowered" or "Nerf (thing)"?

ak_pvp

Bleeds are far too strong. Passable in CP PvP but with 2.5k maimed ticks in noCP you need to realise its far too strong.

It's a hard counter for many builds and like sloads it's down to a "just heal, don't get hit and completely change ur build bro." Anything where you have to stomach the full damage without a chance to either stop or fairly mitigate it is too strong.

It was the same with rune combos. Same with sloads, same with shield breaker.

IZZEFlameLash

Stigant wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Bleeds are too strong right now. It finishes off non-tanks within few seconds and tanks a bit longer. It's quite funny to watch 2 bleed builds fight each other. It is a contest of who gets the axe proc first and it goes into the favor of the one who gets it and the person that has DoT on them just suddenly dies unable to heal even. You may say it is a tank counter or something, but just like Sload's, it hurts non-tanks even more. Also hilarious to watch how applying bleed and then DBoSing finishes off most non-HA wearers (because of inherent smaller health pool and less resistance to resist DBoS damage). Very balance. Wow.

in every MMO I played, whatever was a counter against tanks was also working well against nonTanks.
It's that simple, you build for something else than Tanking, you 're suffering the full effect of other people's attacks and offensive effects, counter to tanks just makes tanks ability to deal with the particular effect very hard and that's the way it should be...
I don't understand why people can't comprehend the fact that counter against Tank actually work against them as well and ask for nerfs... you should have as hard time dealing with counter against a Tank as the Tank himself.

But here in this game, it is very overdone. I cannot even think of examples that puts everyone on instagib risk (you cannot do anything about it, pretty much without gimping yourself) because of some damage source. Tbf, having a pile of non-potato players alone should be a counter enough at this point and stage of nerfed tank in this game.

Shinshadow

SO... why doesn't the bow have any skills that cause bleed?? Let's face facts, if you get shot with one, you WILL bleed out.