Bleeds Are Overpowered

Zeromaz

HankTwo wrote: »

Recently I talked with some magsorcs about bleeds, and they told me that those builds are very strong even against them. Which from a balance point of view seems bad, because bleeds should be - relatively speaking - weak against shielded light armor targets, since their defining strength, being able to bypass resistances, is mostly irrelevant there.

Tbh I think the biggest problem with bleeds is that they are just too damn resource efficient. You can get both passive bleed procs without spending a single drop of stamina. On top of that, master dw slashes do a huge amount of damage for the resources they costs.

This is not entirely true. Shields have no resistances, so it would do the same non-crit damage to the shield as it would to anyone without a shield.

casparian

ITT: DKs who think DOTs that aren't mitigated by Blood Spawn are overpowered, but being able to hold block for the entire duration of an offensive combo is fine.

Asgari

So having anything stack on you in this game is strong.


Being 1v3 mDKs is just as miserable as being 1v3 bleed DKs for example .. If anything the 3mDKs are far worse since chances are they are holding block more often than not.

Bleeds are not a problem, the problem is DK passives need to be updated and brought to the current state of the game and not be left to pre 1.6 still.

technohic

Always entertained to read comments on things that are the stronger setups. Always absolutes. Bleeds in this case are probably stronger than setups without bleeds. Guess it depends on your definition of OP. If BIS = OP then there’s always going to be something OP. At the same time; I do get tired of having to swap troll king between toons.

LeifErickson

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

DarkAedin wrote: »

-Every magika build in the game has access to a ranged class dot.
-Dk is the only class with a stam varient of a class dot, and its melee range.
-axes have a low proc chance for bleeds.
-in a pve parse, bleeds are halfway down the dmg list on ur dmg done, so we already know that there are plenty of other dots that outperform bleeds dmg wise.

-3 pages in and not one person has actually brought up how to defend against bleeds, its pretty sad.
Here goes: u have two types of stam builds, heavy and medium; heavy users bleeds are mitigated by rapid regen/mutagen, medium armor users bleeds are more about the crit then stacking dmg, as a mag user, u fight crits with shields, so u once again rr/mutagen and pop a shield to negate the bleed critting u, which is where the majority of its dmg comes from.

There is a HUGE l2p issue happening here.

So many players dont understand that u MUST bring a few heals into pvp, i see this daily in bgs where any of my toons (all dd builds) walk in with 2-3 heals, i normally put out 200k healing on top of 1mil+dmg in a bg and my teamates are sub 100k healing out.
U counter dmg with different forms of mitigation AND healing, like many others b4 me have said, los the dude and heal up, or keep ur hots going constantly, bubble up, cc and pressure. Also start thinking about vitality/lingering potions, they can also outheal bleeds.

Smh ppl callin for nerfs without understanding fundamentals of the game

Your counters are literally just counters to everything. You keep your hots up, Los, pop a shield etc to help with getting hit by anything in the game. None of this stuff is specific to bleeds.

Leif, I’m not saying bleeds aren’t strong, but if those things he listed are counters to everything in the game and bleeds are in the game shouldn’t they then be counters to bleeds? Trust me I understand they are very strong, but you primarily play a perma/near perma blocking mdk, you also don’t want to surrender blood spawn or slot a hot, so by default you feel bleeds more than anything else. Just like stam builds have to feel your cc through dodge and block with accompanied immob, that is felt even more so by magicka builds that don’t have the stam sustain.

If shield breaker is the hard counter to shields, then everyone should run shield breaker, then everyone would complain about no counters to shield breaker. There is no end.

Bleeds aid against tank and perma block builds, but everyone that is not that feels it more. You as a tanky perma block mdk, it’s what pains you the most.

You are right however the difference between your bleeds and the bleeds of Cyrodiil are a different ball game. You play solo or in a small group. Your bleeds are your own. A guy gets a couple bleeds on him from another guy, whatever. It's not that big of a deal. The problem is when I'm fighting multiple players running bleeds that stack 4+ bleeds on me. I have no chance whatsoever. And before people say "oh you shouldn't win that fight anyways blah blah blah," it's not that I think I should win, it's that I literally melt in 5 seconds or less in a fight like that. A tanky hold your ground class like mdk should not be dying in 5 seconds or less regardless of if they are getting countered. Why play a zero mobility hold your ground class if you can't hold your ground.

This is a new thing this patch. Take a look at the patch notes for Wolfhunter:



Link to patch notes: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/430154/pc-mac-patch-notes-v4-1-5-wolfhunter-update-19#latest

This "fix" is something that doesn't change anything for you because you play solo/in a small group. All ZOS needs to do to make bleeds not as bad is to make it so they can't be stacked 3+ on one player.

We are both screwed there bud. They aren’t going to, and arguably shouldn’t balance items in favor of the 1.

The not stacking part seems decent, but then we have to look about assimilating that to everything.
Is it just weapon skills? After wpn skills do we consider class skills? How horrible would it be if your embers couldn’t be placed on a target cause Quantum’s embers were on it? It’s just an all around rough and sticky situation.

You are right. The difference between bleeds and embers, though, is that it's much easier to mitigate embers. I don't want stamplar to be nerfed. I don't want any class to be nerfed. But if nerfing things outside of class skill lines hurts a class so much, it must mean that that class needs some serious work (which I'm sure you agree with).

Drakkdjinn

Ranged oblivion/bleeds is the real boogeyman; that's a low effort, low risk spammable 'unmitigatable' dmg trend that's been picking up in recent patches & being encouraged by ZoS.

The more common current bleed builds actually require the player to apply them in the context of a risk of death (swift has made this less risky, which IMO swift is a poor addition to the game that removes build diversity).

Speaking of common, as an OG ESO Hemophiliac I've died to bleeds twice, ever.

Just wait until the bownerds figure out they can start running savage werewolf + sloads - pvp is going to look like this with the bow coming out on top:

https://youtu.be/r671j5MvwV4

The_Brosteen

I also saw a bleed on my death recap plz nerf

DarkAedin

ak_pvp wrote: »

DarkAedin wrote: »

-Every magika build in the game has access to a ranged class dot.
-Dk is the only class with a stam varient of a class dot, and its melee range.
-axes have a low proc chance for bleeds.
-in a pve parse, bleeds are halfway down the dmg list on ur dmg done, so we already know that there are plenty of other dots that outperform bleeds dmg wise.

-3 pages in and not one person has actually brought up how to defend against bleeds, its pretty sad.
Here goes: u have two types of stam builds, heavy and medium; heavy users bleeds are mitigated by rapid regen/mutagen, medium armor users bleeds are more about the crit then stacking dmg, as a mag user, u fight crits with shields, so u once again rr/mutagen and pop a shield to negate the bleed critting u, which is where the majority of its dmg comes from.

There is a HUGE l2p issue happening here.

So many players dont understand that u MUST bring a few heals into pvp, i see this daily in bgs where any of my toons (all dd builds) walk in with 2-3 heals, i normally put out 200k healing on top of 1mil+dmg in a bg and my teamates are sub 100k healing out.
U counter dmg with different forms of mitigation AND healing, like many others b4 me have said, los the dude and heal up, or keep ur hots going constantly, bubble up, cc and pressure. Also start thinking about vitality/lingering potions, they can also outheal bleeds.

Smh ppl callin for nerfs without understanding fundamentals of the game

I don't think you know what you are talking about, or in your words, understand the fundamentals of the game.

"Bleeds aren't that stronk on deeps so they must be weak huh" No. Bleeds go through all resist stat, On DPS tests you are usually fully pen'd anyway. You aren't in PvP, and most people have more resists than a dummy, so comparitively bleeds are a lot stronger.
What are you on about rapid regen/mutagen, do you run in a zerg with healers protecting you, because wew lad. Yes, shields work against bleeds. But not much else.

By yourself you simply cannot outheal bleeds without going full potato damage. Master bleeds do 1.2k dps. Twin blade and heavy weapons bleeds about 1k each. Then other constant DPS, can't outheal, can't kill them easily if they have a brain, and can't resist it without purging.

Its broken.

Im sorry, but u are flat out incorrect.
I aslo only solo/small man and soends most of my time in bgs

Xvorg

Shinshadow wrote: »

SO... why doesn't the bow have any skills that cause bleed?? Let's face facts, if you get shot with one, you WILL bleed out.

I think poison Injection is more than enough

ak_pvp

Bleeds are fine, they only deal higher than sload dps each whilst maimed no biggy since its only DKs who are *** by it and they are actually decent for once, can't be having that.
That isn't sigil buffed or cheesed, its in a BG and the user was maimed by talons. Its even often higher.

caeliusstarbreaker

LeifErickson wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

DarkAedin wrote: »

-Every magika build in the game has access to a ranged class dot.
-Dk is the only class with a stam varient of a class dot, and its melee range.
-axes have a low proc chance for bleeds.
-in a pve parse, bleeds are halfway down the dmg list on ur dmg done, so we already know that there are plenty of other dots that outperform bleeds dmg wise.

-3 pages in and not one person has actually brought up how to defend against bleeds, its pretty sad.
Here goes: u have two types of stam builds, heavy and medium; heavy users bleeds are mitigated by rapid regen/mutagen, medium armor users bleeds are more about the crit then stacking dmg, as a mag user, u fight crits with shields, so u once again rr/mutagen and pop a shield to negate the bleed critting u, which is where the majority of its dmg comes from.

There is a HUGE l2p issue happening here.

So many players dont understand that u MUST bring a few heals into pvp, i see this daily in bgs where any of my toons (all dd builds) walk in with 2-3 heals, i normally put out 200k healing on top of 1mil+dmg in a bg and my teamates are sub 100k healing out.
U counter dmg with different forms of mitigation AND healing, like many others b4 me have said, los the dude and heal up, or keep ur hots going constantly, bubble up, cc and pressure. Also start thinking about vitality/lingering potions, they can also outheal bleeds.

Smh ppl callin for nerfs without understanding fundamentals of the game

Your counters are literally just counters to everything. You keep your hots up, Los, pop a shield etc to help with getting hit by anything in the game. None of this stuff is specific to bleeds.

Leif, I’m not saying bleeds aren’t strong, but if those things he listed are counters to everything in the game and bleeds are in the game shouldn’t they then be counters to bleeds? Trust me I understand they are very strong, but you primarily play a perma/near perma blocking mdk, you also don’t want to surrender blood spawn or slot a hot, so by default you feel bleeds more than anything else. Just like stam builds have to feel your cc through dodge and block with accompanied immob, that is felt even more so by magicka builds that don’t have the stam sustain.

If shield breaker is the hard counter to shields, then everyone should run shield breaker, then everyone would complain about no counters to shield breaker. There is no end.

Bleeds aid against tank and perma block builds, but everyone that is not that feels it more. You as a tanky perma block mdk, it’s what pains you the most.

You are right however the difference between your bleeds and the bleeds of Cyrodiil are a different ball game. You play solo or in a small group. Your bleeds are your own. A guy gets a couple bleeds on him from another guy, whatever. It's not that big of a deal. The problem is when I'm fighting multiple players running bleeds that stack 4+ bleeds on me. I have no chance whatsoever. And before people say "oh you shouldn't win that fight anyways blah blah blah," it's not that I think I should win, it's that I literally melt in 5 seconds or less in a fight like that. A tanky hold your ground class like mdk should not be dying in 5 seconds or less regardless of if they are getting countered. Why play a zero mobility hold your ground class if you can't hold your ground.

This is a new thing this patch. Take a look at the patch notes for Wolfhunter:



Link to patch notes: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/430154/pc-mac-patch-notes-v4-1-5-wolfhunter-update-19#latest

This "fix" is something that doesn't change anything for you because you play solo/in a small group. All ZOS needs to do to make bleeds not as bad is to make it so they can't be stacked 3+ on one player.

We are both screwed there bud. They aren’t going to, and arguably shouldn’t balance items in favor of the 1.

The not stacking part seems decent, but then we have to look about assimilating that to everything.
Is it just weapon skills? After wpn skills do we consider class skills? How horrible would it be if your embers couldn’t be placed on a target cause Quantum’s embers were on it? It’s just an all around rough and sticky situation.

You are right. The difference between bleeds and embers, though, is that it's much easier to mitigate embers. I don't want stamplar to be nerfed. I don't want any class to be nerfed. But if nerfing things outside of class skill lines hurts a class so much, it must mean that that class needs some serious work (which I'm sure you agree with).

The stacking embers wasn’t about mitigation it was about the theoretical flip side of that coin. If we stop abilities from stacking then in the same negation of 2 people using and axe to take advantage of that dmg/Perk, then you guys would miss out on the healing of embers because they wouldn’t stack. In this theoretical situation of course.

Stamplar will be stamplar, will be stamplar.
I make use of bleeds on my stamplar because
1) master weapons are good dmg, I spent the time farming for them, and I don’t like using bow, or sb for that matter. Everyone wanted 2h to be 2 lines in a set... congrats you gave me my back bar weapon.
2) they functionally fit into stamplar strengths
3) I already have to proc burning light, what’s throwing another dot/bleed in their hurting? I did the math by switching cp around to favor higher burning light vs higher jabs... I’m basically losing 800 dmg across all 4 jabs hitting, for 1000-1100 extra burning light dmg. Which given jabs hit box, I stand a better shot of that hitting with its % to proc than all 4 jabs.
4) I don’t have a cc that goes through block, and I can’t really fill up my potl if the target is blocking all the dmg. Let alone my main source of dmg leaves my vulnerable.

So I’m using a game mechanic to help my class do better because of things that I feel lacking.

Here is exactly where the problem is.... you can take all the things bleed is doing to help me out....

then just go throw it on a nb.

Then toss 3 nb outside ash milgate.

And now we want to nerf bleeds.

Added: They can nerf it all they want I’ll figure out some other way to make stamplar work.

Xvorg

CyrusArya wrote: »

Seems like DKs in particular are struggling a lot with this. Which is interesting cus they are still some of the most durable and difficult to kill specs in the game. Bleeds are one of the only reliable ways to dent a sturdy dk for a stam build. How do you counter bleeds? With healing. Literally the counter to damage is heals, and healing is something dragonknights have an over abundance of. People asserting bleeds are a counter don’t understand the meaning of the word. Wings are a counter. Mark is a counter. Oblivion damage is a counter. Defile is a counter. Bleeds are just damage, which is “countered” by healing. But I can see why a class used to ez tanking and mitigation might see the one form of damage they cant easily repel as a major balance issue.

I will reiterate that bleeds exist for a reason. They serve a purpose. And you remove that without regard to the overall picture, and you could easily give rise once again to the perma blocking, block casting, “unkillable” to pugs playstyle that zos abhors. And I don’t think they want that.

While I agree mDK has a lot of heals (some of them quite good) stam DK on the other hand has nothing that helps them mitigate bleeds naturally, besides running vigor + Rally. SDK mag pool is tiny, because the class has no way to max resources, so you have to put all your money into stam, with some points into mag (to run at least one of these: Foss, Volatile, wings, obsidian). A tgood way to counter that would be to run rending slashes, but sDKs have no natural gap closer that helps them reach a running enemy (chains sloted mean you lose foss).

Anyway, askig for a nerf in bleeds would kill Stamplar and stamsorc. Instead ZoS should fix DKs giving them options beyond the permablocking turtle.

DarkAedin

LeifErickson wrote: »

DarkAedin wrote: »

-Every magika build in the game has access to a ranged class dot.
-Dk is the only class with a stam varient of a class dot, and its melee range.
-axes have a low proc chance for bleeds.
-in a pve parse, bleeds are halfway down the dmg list on ur dmg done, so we already know that there are plenty of other dots that outperform bleeds dmg wise.

-3 pages in and not one person has actually brought up how to defend against bleeds, its pretty sad.
Here goes: u have two types of stam builds, heavy and medium; heavy users bleeds are mitigated by rapid regen/mutagen, medium armor users bleeds are more about the crit then stacking dmg, as a mag user, u fight crits with shields, so u once again rr/mutagen and pop a shield to negate the bleed critting u, which is where the majority of its dmg comes from.

There is a HUGE l2p issue happening here.

So many players dont understand that u MUST bring a few heals into pvp, i see this daily in bgs where any of my toons (all dd builds) walk in with 2-3 heals, i normally put out 200k healing on top of 1mil+dmg in a bg and my teamates are sub 100k healing out.
U counter dmg with different forms of mitigation AND healing, like many others b4 me have said, los the dude and heal up, or keep ur hots going constantly, bubble up, cc and pressure. Also start thinking about vitality/lingering potions, they can also outheal bleeds.

Smh ppl callin for nerfs without understanding fundamentals of the game

Your counters are literally just counters to everything. You keep your hots up, Los, pop a shield etc to help with getting hit by anything in the game. None of this stuff is specific to bleeds.

Bleeds arent too special, they are just a dot. In order to make them ballanced against ranged dots, something had to be done, so instead of ramping up the dmg, they bypass resists, however they are also outhealed by ur most basic hot. And u negate the majority of thier damage by shielding and not allowing them to crit.

Master dw are where they should be (bar the old 1 slot, which they should get back imo), hard to get, breaks up the 5/5/2 meta, and increases stams rare melee dot, but not by a broken amount at all, we even know that sloads was outperforming master dw, AND we could deal with sloads too.

Minno

ak_pvp wrote: »

Bleeds are fine, they only deal higher than sload dps each whilst maimed no biggy since its only DKs who are *** by it and they are actually decent for once, can't be having that.
That isn't sigil buffed or cheesed, its in a BG and the user was maimed by talons. Its even often higher.

12000 tooltip axe bleed?
2037 tooltip blood craze bleed?

I think you got blasted by some crit hits and probably only had 1100 CR in that BG. Either that or someone's stacking that leet 6k WD and zapped you lol. Which in that case, should we really have 6k WD potential from our sets? Should probably nerf some sets before we start messing with abilities.

DarkAedin

ak_pvp wrote: »

Bleeds are fine, they only deal higher than sload dps each whilst maimed no biggy since its only DKs who are *** by it and they are actually decent for once, can't be having that.
That isn't sigil buffed or cheesed, its in a BG and the user was maimed by talons. Its even often higher.

Theres a lot of information ur missing there, was he fully buffed when he bled you? I have ranged magica dots that do more dmg then that b4 i combat prayer, was he combat prayered? Did he infused wpn dmg master bow pi u first?
I mean gratz, u got bled for 2k a tic, were any crits? I mean srsly dude, ur gonna need a lot more information then this picture and a bunch of QQing over an easly outhealed dot

Lichbourne90

Minno wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Bleeds are fine, they only deal higher than sload dps each whilst maimed no biggy since its only DKs who are *** by it and they are actually decent for once, can't be having that.
That isn't sigil buffed or cheesed, its in a BG and the user was maimed by talons. Its even often higher.

12000 tooltip axe bleed?
2037 tooltip blood craze bleed?

I think you got blasted by some crit hits and probably only had 1100 CR in that BG. Either that or someone's stacking that leet 6k WD and zapped you lol. Which in that case, should we really have 6k WD potential from our sets? Should probably nerf some sets before we start messing with abilities.

That's a whole different argument in of itself. 6k weapon damage is fine. I run a build like that. And make sacrifices to do so. It's the same concept as playing super tank with mitigation or building for pure sustain. U make sacrifices.

Drakkdjinn

ak_pvp wrote: »

2k bleed ticks? That's pvp's kryptonite?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OrS5Ym6vzU

Brutusmax1mus

This whole "multiple like effects shouldn't stack" idea is not what zos wants. They want large scale. That would be a small scale buff, and is impossible bc zos.

Minno

Lichbourne90 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Bleeds are fine, they only deal higher than sload dps each whilst maimed no biggy since its only DKs who are *** by it and they are actually decent for once, can't be having that.
That isn't sigil buffed or cheesed, its in a BG and the user was maimed by talons. Its even often higher.

12000 tooltip axe bleed?
2037 tooltip blood craze bleed?

I think you got blasted by some crit hits and probably only had 1100 CR in that BG. Either that or someone's stacking that leet 6k WD and zapped you lol. Which in that case, should we really have 6k WD potential from our sets? Should probably nerf some sets before we start messing with abilities.

That's a whole different argument in of itself. 6k weapon damage is fine. I run a build like that. And make sacrifices to do so. It's the same concept as playing super tank with mitigation or building for pure sustain. U make sacrifices.

True! Though I have seen 5.xK WD builds that still get 1800 regen/tanky stats at only cost of having a 30-33k stam pool.

Definitely a different discussion

Lichbourne90

Minno wrote: »

Lichbourne90 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Bleeds are fine, they only deal higher than sload dps each whilst maimed no biggy since its only DKs who are *** by it and they are actually decent for once, can't be having that.
That isn't sigil buffed or cheesed, its in a BG and the user was maimed by talons. Its even often higher.

12000 tooltip axe bleed?
2037 tooltip blood craze bleed?

I think you got blasted by some crit hits and probably only had 1100 CR in that BG. Either that or someone's stacking that leet 6k WD and zapped you lol. Which in that case, should we really have 6k WD potential from our sets? Should probably nerf some sets before we start messing with abilities.

That's a whole different argument in of itself. 6k weapon damage is fine. I run a build like that. And make sacrifices to do so. It's the same concept as playing super tank with mitigation or building for pure sustain. U make sacrifices.

True! Though I have seen 5.xK WD builds that still get 1800 regen/tanky stats at only cost of having a 30-33k stam pool.

Definitely a different discussion

What I'm hearing is nerf redguard again

Waffennacht

OMG

We already have "unkillable tanks plz Nerf omgerz!" threads now.

Imagine once effects can no longer stack...

The 6v1 losers are gonna cry oh so much harder!

Glory

Also ITT (since apparently people think it's only tank specs complaining??): People who use Master's DW Rending Slashes bleed for an ez 2k DoT but somehow think that healing or LOS is a "counter."

It's possible to acknowledge that certain things are overtuned and need to be adjusted but not completed removed from the game. No matter what spec you're running, it's not really balanced to know that someone is able to use an extremely cheap skill to snare + 2k DoT you.

What other damage types are so efficient in their DPS output across the board? I'd personally look at the efficiency of bleeds to do a true assessment of how effective they are compared to other damage types, and adjust accordingly.

ak_pvp

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

2k bleed ticks? That's pvp's kryptonite?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OrS5Ym6vzU

Put 3 of them together, 3k passive unresistable DPS. Pretty OK I suppose. Then add sloads, another 850, with active offense like a spammable, and then defiles to gimp your healing. All in all about 6k dps where your healing stacks are doing maybe 2k.

As the lord once said: That's alot of damage.

Ragnarock41

Told it times and times again. Its a very fun experience when venom claws on an equal build gets outperformed by a bleed that comes with a heal over time .d So much for class identity man.

WreckfulAbandon

ak_pvp wrote: »

Put 3 of them together, 3k passive unresistable DPS. Pretty OK I suppose. Then add sloads, another 850, with active offense like a spammable, and then defiles to gimp your healing. All in all about 6k dps where your healing stacks are doing maybe 2k.

As the lord once said: That's alot of damage.

That's 3 different mechanics you're describing there man. Anyone who knows anything about PvP knows bleeds are strong but at the same time, I'm sure plenty notice the pattern in this thread... A bunch of DK mains complaining about what counters them hardest.

So which counters DK's the hardest, bleeds defiles or sloads? Cause saying "all 3, NERRRRRF" isn't a viable argument for nerfing bleeds. Plenty of things other than those 3 mechanics have put a crimp on "stand your ground" playstyle: emphasis on mobility, poisons, changes in block calculations, heavy armor nerfs.

Block+Major Vitality+Mending+Lingering Health+Troll King+healing skills (there are other things like CP, health regen, and set procs as well) needs a viable counter. You act like bleeds are on par with Shieldbreaker, which btw has existed unchanged for a long time now. And now with Defile sources nerfed and Befoul not working healing essentially got another buff. Bleeds are strong but fine, I'm fine with TTK being a bit lower, and yes for tanky DK's too. Cause you don't use defensive/sustain sets to reach BFG levels of damage, you have to build for it. Are we supposed to go for Dizzying Swing combos on blocking DK's? That's a sure way to end up in someone's 1vX clip.

I mean one of you even conceded that they could handle bleeds 1v1 but it's in Xv1 situations that they're OP...

caeliusstarbreaker

Glory wrote: »

Also ITT (since apparently people think it's only tank specs complaining??): People who use Master's DW Rending Slashes bleed for an ez 2k DoT but somehow think that healing or LOS is a "counter."

It's possible to acknowledge that certain things are overtuned and need to be adjusted but not completed removed from the game. No matter what spec you're running, it's not really balanced to know that someone is able to use an extremely cheap skill to snare + 2k DoT you.

What other damage types are so efficient in their DPS output across the board? I'd personally look at the efficiency of bleeds to do a true assessment of how effective they are compared to other damage types, and adjust accordingly.

You’re right, we should nerf embers and venom claw because they are cheaper than rending and apply a snare haha. I’m just kidding mind you.

Honestly, I think the main issue is master wpns, followed by bleeds stacking.. can’t really stop the stacking so I guess it’s nerf master wpns.
Rending is real simple to deal with on its own. Axes themselves are technically locked behind a 16% proc chance.
Rending with master wpns effectively doubles its its dmg.

Ragnarock41

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Glory wrote: »

Also ITT (since apparently people think it's only tank specs complaining??): People who use Master's DW Rending Slashes bleed for an ez 2k DoT but somehow think that healing or LOS is a "counter."

It's possible to acknowledge that certain things are overtuned and need to be adjusted but not completed removed from the game. No matter what spec you're running, it's not really balanced to know that someone is able to use an extremely cheap skill to snare + 2k DoT you.

What other damage types are so efficient in their DPS output across the board? I'd personally look at the efficiency of bleeds to do a true assessment of how effective they are compared to other damage types, and adjust accordingly.

You’re right, we should nerf embers and venom claw because they are cheaper than rending and apply a snare haha. I’m just kidding mind you.

Honestly, I think the main issue is master wpns, followed by bleeds stacking.. can’t really stop the stacking so I guess it’s nerf master wpns.
Rending is real simple to deal with on its own. Axes themselves are technically locked behind a 16% proc chance.
Rending with master wpns effectively doubles its its dmg.

claws does not come with a snare or heal over time. the %30 snare is only applied on the direct damage part of the snare, and it comes from the passives. I don't think rending outdamaging claws is fine either. 2h ult is also supposed to be a tank counter but it does not outperform incap for example.

ccmedaddy

Nerf Master DW's 2pc bonus slightly, and then give all Masters/VMA weapons their bonus stats back please. >.>

montiferus

Master Weapons need to stay as is. The DW is already useless in PVE so what are we now trying to make them useless for PVP as well?

How many once useful sets/weapons have been rendered useless over the years thanks to all the QQ ing?

Maybe things are different on PC but I don't find bleeds to be OP on console. I feel like this forum consists mostly of bad players who want the game to be easier for them so they cry for nerfs everywhere. I mean there is a legit thread in the PVP section calling for a nerf to fossilize. Really? I mean come on. Lets all just fight naked with bare fists. Will that make everyone happy?

LeifErickson

montiferus wrote: »

Master Weapons need to stay as is. The DW is already useless in PVE so what are we now trying to make them useless for PVP as well?

How many once useful sets/weapons have been rendered useless over the years thanks to all the QQ ing?

Maybe things are different on PC but I don't find bleeds to be OP on console. I feel like this forum consists mostly of bad players who want the game to be easier for them so they cry for nerfs everywhere. I mean there is a legit thread in the PVP section calling for a nerf to fossilize. Really? I mean come on. Lets all just fight naked with bare fists. Will that make everyone happy?

In what world is DW useless in PVE?

Edit: unless you are talking about the master weapons.