Bleeds Are Overpowered

Ragnarock41

montiferus wrote: »

Master Weapons need to stay as is. The DW is already useless in PVE so what are we now trying to make them useless for PVP as well?

How many once useful sets/weapons have been rendered useless over the years thanks to all the QQ ing?

Maybe things are different on PC but I don't find bleeds to be OP on console. I feel like this forum consists mostly of bad players who want the game to be easier for them so they cry for nerfs everywhere. I mean there is a legit thread in the PVP section calling for a nerf to fossilize. Really? I mean come on. Lets all just fight naked with bare fists. Will that make everyone happy?

I like how the people with no clue about anything often believe they know it the best. DW is useless in PvE huh? Do you even PvE mate?

ccmedaddy

He obviously meant the Master's DW lol. Y'all need to chill

Ragnarock41

ccmedaddy wrote: »

He obviously meant the Master's DW lol. Y'all need to chill

it doesn't need to be useful for PvE in the first place. I don't remember anyone crying about asylum 2h or master 2h not being used in PvE either but buffing it would make it god tier in PvP.

Not every gear needs to be viable. I certainly don't miss old malubeth, I don't miss old viper, I don't miss old sloads. Even though I loved it back then, I also don't miss black rose too.

Are we gonna cry about every set that overperformed and got a nerf?

montiferus

ccmedaddy wrote: »

He obviously meant the Master's DW lol. Y'all need to chill

Lol thank you for clarifying what I thought was pretty obvious. Appreciate it.

People get so triggered. Spend more time playing the game and learning your class and less time complaining on the forums. Or better yet if you can't beat them join them. Last time I checked master weapons weren't locked behind a pay wall or a DLC. It is available in the base game.

montiferus

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

He obviously meant the Master's DW lol. Y'all need to chill

it doesn't need to be useful for PvE in the first place. I don't remember anyone crying about asylum 2h or master 2h not being used in PvE either but buffing it would make it god tier in PvP.

Not every gear needs to be viable. I certainly don't miss old malubeth, I don't miss old viper, I don't miss old sloads. Even though I loved it back then, I also don't miss black rose too.

Are we gonna cry about every set that overperformed and got a nerf?

Bro you seem to be the only one crying. Lol.

My point was Master DW is irrelevant in PVE. If it gets nerfed you will now have another item that is irrelevant in the game. Does that make sense?

Ragnarock41

montiferus wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

He obviously meant the Master's DW lol. Y'all need to chill

it doesn't need to be useful for PvE in the first place. I don't remember anyone crying about asylum 2h or master 2h not being used in PvE either but buffing it would make it god tier in PvP.

Not every gear needs to be viable. I certainly don't miss old malubeth, I don't miss old viper, I don't miss old sloads. Even though I loved it back then, I also don't miss black rose too.

Are we gonna cry about every set that overperformed and got a nerf?

Bro you seem to be the only one crying. Lol.

My point was Master DW is irrelevant in PVE. If it gets nerfed you will now have another item that is irrelevant in the game. Does that make sense?

Better to have a bad set than a broken one. But I certainly don't expect you to understand why it needs a tone down. Consoles are almost always behind on meta so I'm giving you about 6 months to catch up with PC then realize what everyone is talking about.

montiferus

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

montiferus wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

He obviously meant the Master's DW lol. Y'all need to chill

it doesn't need to be useful for PvE in the first place. I don't remember anyone crying about asylum 2h or master 2h not being used in PvE either but buffing it would make it god tier in PvP.

Not every gear needs to be viable. I certainly don't miss old malubeth, I don't miss old viper, I don't miss old sloads. Even though I loved it back then, I also don't miss black rose too.

Are we gonna cry about every set that overperformed and got a nerf?

Bro you seem to be the only one crying. Lol.

My point was Master DW is irrelevant in PVE. If it gets nerfed you will now have another item that is irrelevant in the game. Does that make sense?

Better to have a bad set than a broken one. But I certainly don't expect you to understand why it needs a tone down. Consoles are almost always behind on meta so I'm giving you about 6 months to catch up with PC then realize what everyone is talking about.

You keep saying how I don't understand when you couldn't even grasp my point about the Master DW weapons. Perhaps you have battle fatigue and its affecting your comprehension. Or has all the bleeding made you dizzy?

Maybe you should just get better at the game no? Isn't that an option? Adapt or die?

ccmedaddy

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

He obviously meant the Master's DW lol. Y'all need to chill

it doesn't need to be useful for PvE in the first place. I don't remember anyone crying about asylum 2h or master 2h not being used in PvE either but buffing it would make it god tier in PvP.

Not every gear needs to be viable. I certainly don't miss old malubeth, I don't miss old viper, I don't miss old sloads. Even though I loved it back then, I also don't miss black rose too.

Are we gonna cry about every set that overperformed and got a nerf?

Literally no one here is talking about buffing Master's DW. You completely missed the point the person you quoted was making and you are now QQing over some strawman argument you made up in your head.

Like, I dunno, go outside and talk a walk or something? Why u mad?

Ragnarock41

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

He obviously meant the Master's DW lol. Y'all need to chill

it doesn't need to be useful for PvE in the first place. I don't remember anyone crying about asylum 2h or master 2h not being used in PvE either but buffing it would make it god tier in PvP.

Not every gear needs to be viable. I certainly don't miss old malubeth, I don't miss old viper, I don't miss old sloads. Even though I loved it back then, I also don't miss black rose too.

Are we gonna cry about every set that overperformed and got a nerf?

Literally no one here is talking about buffing Master's DW. You completely missed the point the person you quoted was making and you are now QQing over some strawman argument you made up in your head.

Like, I dunno, go outside and talk a walk or something? Why u mad?

I'm not? don't you two have a better answer than ''git gud'' or ''u mad''? What is this? am I in a call of duty forum?

DarkAedin

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

He obviously meant the Master's DW lol. Y'all need to chill

it doesn't need to be useful for PvE in the first place. I don't remember anyone crying about asylum 2h or master 2h not being used in PvE either but buffing it would make it god tier in PvP.

Not every gear needs to be viable. I certainly don't miss old malubeth, I don't miss old viper, I don't miss old sloads. Even though I loved it back then, I also don't miss black rose too.

Are we gonna cry about every set that overperformed and got a nerf?

Literally no one here is talking about buffing Master's DW. You completely missed the point the person you quoted was making and you are now QQing over some strawman argument you made up in your head.

Like, I dunno, go outside and talk a walk or something? Why u mad?

I am, buff dw master along with all the other master weapons by reverting the 1 piece nerf

Ragnarock41

DarkAedin wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

He obviously meant the Master's DW lol. Y'all need to chill

it doesn't need to be useful for PvE in the first place. I don't remember anyone crying about asylum 2h or master 2h not being used in PvE either but buffing it would make it god tier in PvP.

Not every gear needs to be viable. I certainly don't miss old malubeth, I don't miss old viper, I don't miss old sloads. Even though I loved it back then, I also don't miss black rose too.

Are we gonna cry about every set that overperformed and got a nerf?

Literally no one here is talking about buffing Master's DW. You completely missed the point the person you quoted was making and you are now QQing over some strawman argument you made up in your head.

Like, I dunno, go outside and talk a walk or something? Why u mad?

I am, buff dw master along with all the other master weapons by reverting the 1 piece nerf

I would say revert the buff to it, give back 1 piece bonuses to ability altering weapons , and maybe buff 3 piece jewelry sets while at it, like agility, willpower etc.

The real issue about bleeds is them ignoring resistances creating a lack of counterplay anyways, if it wasn't the case master dw would not overperform in the first place.

Brutusmax1mus

Glory wrote: »

Also ITT (since apparently people think it's only tank specs complaining??): People who use Master's DW Rending Slashes bleed for an ez 2k DoT but somehow think that healing or LOS is a "counter."

It's possible to acknowledge that certain things are overtuned and need to be adjusted but not completed removed from the game. No matter what spec you're running, it's not really balanced to know that someone is able to use an extremely cheap skill to snare + 2k DoT you.

What other damage types are so efficient in their DPS output across the board? I'd personally look at the efficiency of bleeds to do a true assessment of how effective they are compared to other damage types, and adjust accordingly.

Well, you can't judge efficiency simply on cost/ damage /dps to balance something. Comparing it to any non aoe dot isn't even easy. What happens if you need to snare again after 4 seconds, you've decreased cost/ damage efficiency by 100% if you reapply to snare, which many ppl use it for the snare too.

Keep in mind that a user typically gives up a 5pc bonus to run vdsa dw. So I'd think the damage is appropriate since it applies to only 1 skill. Their healing and damage of other skills aren't improved at all.

I think the problem is the free bleeds with twin blade and blunt and heavy weapons that ignore gcds bc they're procs.

IZZEFlameLash

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Put 3 of them together, 3k passive unresistable DPS. Pretty OK I suppose. Then add sloads, another 850, with active offense like a spammable, and then defiles to gimp your healing. All in all about 6k dps where your healing stacks are doing maybe 2k.

As the lord once said: That's alot of damage.

That's 3 different mechanics you're describing there man. Anyone who knows anything about PvP knows bleeds are strong but at the same time, I'm sure plenty notice the pattern in this thread... A bunch of DK mains complaining about what counters them hardest.

So which counters DK's the hardest, bleeds defiles or sloads? Cause saying "all 3, NERRRRRF" isn't a viable argument for nerfing bleeds. Plenty of things other than those 3 mechanics have put a crimp on "stand your ground" playstyle: emphasis on mobility, poisons, changes in block calculations, heavy armor nerfs.

Block+Major Vitality+Mending+Lingering Health+Troll King+healing skills (there are other things like CP, health regen, and set procs as well) needs a viable counter. You act like bleeds are on par with Shieldbreaker, which btw has existed unchanged for a long time now. And now with Defile sources nerfed and Befoul not working healing essentially got another buff. Bleeds are strong but fine, I'm fine with TTK being a bit lower, and yes for tanky DK's too. Cause you don't use defensive/sustain sets to reach BFG levels of damage, you have to build for it. Are we supposed to go for Dizzying Swing combos on blocking DK's? That's a sure way to end up in someone's 1vX clip.

I mean one of you even conceded that they could handle bleeds 1v1 but it's in Xv1 situations that they're OP...

That takes a whole lot to counter 1 button. Major Vitality requires pots to have reliable access but still have low up time on top of being on potion cooldown. Then if DK, 4k magicka to Major Mending and slotting Troll King that could have taken other sets just to have effective healing against it. This is all nice in ideal situation, but not gonna have Major Vitality (from Lingering) all the time for the duration of whole fight realistically where as bleeds are applied as simple as just using Rending Slashes and Light/Heavy attack.

Minno

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Put 3 of them together, 3k passive unresistable DPS. Pretty OK I suppose. Then add sloads, another 850, with active offense like a spammable, and then defiles to gimp your healing. All in all about 6k dps where your healing stacks are doing maybe 2k.

As the lord once said: That's alot of damage.

That's 3 different mechanics you're describing there man. Anyone who knows anything about PvP knows bleeds are strong but at the same time, I'm sure plenty notice the pattern in this thread... A bunch of DK mains complaining about what counters them hardest.

So which counters DK's the hardest, bleeds defiles or sloads? Cause saying "all 3, NERRRRRF" isn't a viable argument for nerfing bleeds. Plenty of things other than those 3 mechanics have put a crimp on "stand your ground" playstyle: emphasis on mobility, poisons, changes in block calculations, heavy armor nerfs.

Block+Major Vitality+Mending+Lingering Health+Troll King+healing skills (there are other things like CP, health regen, and set procs as well) needs a viable counter. You act like bleeds are on par with Shieldbreaker, which btw has existed unchanged for a long time now. And now with Defile sources nerfed and Befoul not working healing essentially got another buff. Bleeds are strong but fine, I'm fine with TTK being a bit lower, and yes for tanky DK's too. Cause you don't use defensive/sustain sets to reach BFG levels of damage, you have to build for it. Are we supposed to go for Dizzying Swing combos on blocking DK's? That's a sure way to end up in someone's 1vX clip.

I mean one of you even conceded that they could handle bleeds 1v1 but it's in Xv1 situations that they're OP...

That takes a whole lot to counter 1 button. Major Vitality requires pots to have reliable access but still have low up time on top of being on potion cooldown. Then if DK, 4k magicka to Major Mending and slotting Troll King that could have taken other sets just to have effective healing against it. This is all nice in ideal situation, but not gonna have Major Vitality (from Lingering) all the time for the duration of whole fight realistically where as bleeds are applied as simple as just using Rending Slashes and Light/Heavy attack.

Then again all that healing is keeping yourself topped off. It isn't magically stopping at only bleeds lol.

Minno

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Put 3 of them together, 3k passive unresistable DPS. Pretty OK I suppose. Then add sloads, another 850, with active offense like a spammable, and then defiles to gimp your healing. All in all about 6k dps where your healing stacks are doing maybe 2k.

As the lord once said: That's alot of damage.

That's 3 different mechanics you're describing there man. Anyone who knows anything about PvP knows bleeds are strong but at the same time, I'm sure plenty notice the pattern in this thread... A bunch of DK mains complaining about what counters them hardest.

So which counters DK's the hardest, bleeds defiles or sloads? Cause saying "all 3, NERRRRRF" isn't a viable argument for nerfing bleeds. Plenty of things other than those 3 mechanics have put a crimp on "stand your ground" playstyle: emphasis on mobility, poisons, changes in block calculations, heavy armor nerfs.

Block+Major Vitality+Mending+Lingering Health+Troll King+healing skills (there are other things like CP, health regen, and set procs as well) needs a viable counter. You act like bleeds are on par with Shieldbreaker, which btw has existed unchanged for a long time now. And now with Defile sources nerfed and Befoul not working healing essentially got another buff. Bleeds are strong but fine, I'm fine with TTK being a bit lower, and yes for tanky DK's too. Cause you don't use defensive/sustain sets to reach BFG levels of damage, you have to build for it. Are we supposed to go for Dizzying Swing combos on blocking DK's? That's a sure way to end up in someone's 1vX clip.

I mean one of you even conceded that they could handle bleeds 1v1 but it's in Xv1 situations that they're OP...

That takes a whole lot to counter 1 button. Major Vitality requires pots to have reliable access but still have low up time on top of being on potion cooldown. Then if DK, 4k magicka to Major Mending and slotting Troll King that could have taken other sets just to have effective healing against it. This is all nice in ideal situation, but not gonna have Major Vitality (from Lingering) all the time for the duration of whole fight realistically where as bleeds are applied as simple as just using Rending Slashes and Light/Heavy attack.

Then again all that healing is keeping yourself topped off against everything. It isn't magically stopping at only bleeds lol.

WreckfulAbandon

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

That takes a whole lot to counter 1 button. Major Vitality requires pots to have reliable access but still have low up time on top of being on potion cooldown. Then if DK, 4k magicka to Major Mending and slotting Troll King that could have taken other sets just to have effective healing against it. This is all nice in ideal situation, but not gonna have Major Vitality (from Lingering) all the time for the duration of whole fight realistically where as bleeds are applied as simple as just using Rending Slashes and Light/Heavy attack.

It takes a lot of bleeding to negate all the above mentioned heals, you aren't gonna do it with Rending + LA.

Argonians with infused potion glyphs can get a high uptime on Major Vitality, and easily sustain Major Mending as well. Even without high uptime on those buffs a smart player can make them count. Healing in this game is simply too strong/easy and the high ceiling of healing capabilities necessitates high pressure builds to negate it. And now without Befoul it matters even more.

What to do about all of this is another matter. I don't necessarily want Stamden healing nerfed or Befoul to exist like it did. But all of the pieces you can put together to heal make it overtuned. I have been against Major Vitality for a long time, and even though I love my Lingering Health + Speed pots maybe Lingering Health is overperforming too if it's the BiS potion option for a lot of builds. Argonian resourceful passive as well. Long story short if you want to nerf bleeds some of these are gonna have to go or it will be easy to have an immortal build capable of moderate damage output as well. And at this point I'm sick of talking about nerfs so I just want to lay out the facts without advocating for anything to be nerfed.

Except Argonians. I wouldn't mind Resourceful passive being brought more in line; I still wonder why there aren't more Clever Alchemist Argonian potion builds running amok in PvP. With such a build you easily recoup the lost dmg from potion glyphs and then some, and still have all of the above mentioned healing mechanics with decent sustain. In fact I'm going to see if I can't shrug off bleed builds with my Argonian Stamden after I level his Fighters Guild and Undaunted.

IZZEFlameLash

Minno wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Put 3 of them together, 3k passive unresistable DPS. Pretty OK I suppose. Then add sloads, another 850, with active offense like a spammable, and then defiles to gimp your healing. All in all about 6k dps where your healing stacks are doing maybe 2k.

As the lord once said: That's alot of damage.

That's 3 different mechanics you're describing there man. Anyone who knows anything about PvP knows bleeds are strong but at the same time, I'm sure plenty notice the pattern in this thread... A bunch of DK mains complaining about what counters them hardest.

So which counters DK's the hardest, bleeds defiles or sloads? Cause saying "all 3, NERRRRRF" isn't a viable argument for nerfing bleeds. Plenty of things other than those 3 mechanics have put a crimp on "stand your ground" playstyle: emphasis on mobility, poisons, changes in block calculations, heavy armor nerfs.

Block+Major Vitality+Mending+Lingering Health+Troll King+healing skills (there are other things like CP, health regen, and set procs as well) needs a viable counter. You act like bleeds are on par with Shieldbreaker, which btw has existed unchanged for a long time now. And now with Defile sources nerfed and Befoul not working healing essentially got another buff. Bleeds are strong but fine, I'm fine with TTK being a bit lower, and yes for tanky DK's too. Cause you don't use defensive/sustain sets to reach BFG levels of damage, you have to build for it. Are we supposed to go for Dizzying Swing combos on blocking DK's? That's a sure way to end up in someone's 1vX clip.

I mean one of you even conceded that they could handle bleeds 1v1 but it's in Xv1 situations that they're OP...

That takes a whole lot to counter 1 button. Major Vitality requires pots to have reliable access but still have low up time on top of being on potion cooldown. Then if DK, 4k magicka to Major Mending and slotting Troll King that could have taken other sets just to have effective healing against it. This is all nice in ideal situation, but not gonna have Major Vitality (from Lingering) all the time for the duration of whole fight realistically where as bleeds are applied as simple as just using Rending Slashes and Light/Heavy attack.

Then again all that healing is keeping yourself topped off. It isn't magically stopping at only bleeds lol.

In real circumstance, you are basically on constant potion cd when you are using Immovability pots when outnumbered and occassional tri-pots. Then speed pots. So Major Vitality is basically out the window for the most part.

You are right that heals are not limited to bleeds but no other single player induced DoT require that much healing in this game. Nothing short of siege dots and stacked Sload's basically. And it does not change the fact that this one source of damage alone requires you to give up other options from pots forces you into losing defensive game. No other DoTs take me from full to 50 within 3 seconds. And those DoT build players don't stand around idly. I don't think you stand around idly as well. No other non-siege DoTs currently can do pressuring as effective as this. I'd rather have axe as a some mid way between sword and mace traits. Like half of each traits, this way, axes are still a good choice and axe bleed and Rending bleed don't stack and less stacks to deal with out in the open world in general.

Arthg

Two cents:

Bleeds are very strong, I think they need adjustment - albeit careful.

Master weapons need to stay strong, with perhaps a 5% reduction to the tick damage - tops.

Twin Blade & Blunt and Heavy Weapons bleeds proc too easily and too often.
Tone down the proc chance from 8% to something like 5%?
I don't know if these passives can self-proc like Sloads did, but if they do, make sure they don 't.

Rather than preventing the same sources of damage from stacking (in the form of Major/Minor (de)buffs), we could envisage to have more options for potions.
For instance, a pot that would remove 3 debuffs, and prevent the stacking of more than three debuffs on you for 15 seconds.

Another solution could be to buff Purge from the Alliance War tree, by reducing the magicka cost (to ~4K for Efficient Purge).

I don't think these last two suggestions would be OP or encroach on Templars' Rituals too much.
Hopefully they would open more gameplay options.

Once again: 2¢.

ak_pvp

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Put 3 of them together, 3k passive unresistable DPS. Pretty OK I suppose. Then add sloads, another 850, with active offense like a spammable, and then defiles to gimp your healing. All in all about 6k dps where your healing stacks are doing maybe 2k.

As the lord once said: That's alot of damage.

That's 3 different mechanics you're describing there man. Anyone who knows anything about PvP knows bleeds are strong but at the same time, I'm sure plenty notice the pattern in this thread... A bunch of DK mains complaining about what counters them hardest.

So which counters DK's the hardest, bleeds defiles or sloads? Cause saying "all 3, NERRRRRF" isn't a viable argument for nerfing bleeds. Plenty of things other than those 3 mechanics have put a crimp on "stand your ground" playstyle: emphasis on mobility, poisons, changes in block calculations, heavy armor nerfs.

Block+Major Vitality+Mending+Lingering Health+Troll King+healing skills (there are other things like CP, health regen, and set procs as well) needs a viable counter. You act like bleeds are on par with Shieldbreaker, which btw has existed unchanged for a long time now. And now with Defile sources nerfed and Befoul not working healing essentially got another buff. Bleeds are strong but fine, I'm fine with TTK being a bit lower, and yes for tanky DK's too. Cause you don't use defensive/sustain sets to reach BFG levels of damage, you have to build for it. Are we supposed to go for Dizzying Swing combos on blocking DK's? That's a sure way to end up in someone's 1vX clip.

I mean one of you even conceded that they could handle bleeds 1v1 but it's in Xv1 situations that they're OP...

Well done. You both missed and validated my points.

The guy before me, and half this thread to be honest, was looking at bleeds in a vaccum. "Pssh, 3k dps is easy to heal out."
Conveniently forgettinh to add all the other factors that bleeds can be stacked in. If it was just unresistable 3k/s damage it would be fine, just like sloads by itself wasn't bad. But it is uncounterable, unresistable and can be combo'd with things.

It is exactly like shield breaker too. Around and often over 3k unresistable damage mixed with whatever else that you need to basically either kill them or escape, because your defense isn't doing anything. It like shieldbreaker, is a hard counter that should be weakened. I don't advocate keeping it. The difference is that bleeds are more rife than shieldbreaker.

How would you kill a tank: You do exactly what non bleed builds do, and what bleed builds should have to do. Either kill them with normal, soft counter dots and pressure their healthbar, or if you can't ignore them and realize they are just a useless tank which does basically nothing.(Healbots are different since they provide support, bleeds don't even work vs these)

You don't use def sets for damage, yes, you do have to build for damage, yes. But you (sorcs/blades mainly) have inbuilt non mitigation defense methods, cloak, shields for instance. If you have damage on a mitigation based defense build, you lose defense, wheras if you do it on a non mit build, you don't lose as much.

Chilly-McFreeze

ak_pvp wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Put 3 of them together, 3k passive unresistable DPS. Pretty OK I suppose. Then add sloads, another 850, with active offense like a spammable, and then defiles to gimp your healing. All in all about 6k dps where your healing stacks are doing maybe 2k.

As the lord once said: That's alot of damage.

That's 3 different mechanics you're describing there man. Anyone who knows anything about PvP knows bleeds are strong but at the same time, I'm sure plenty notice the pattern in this thread... A bunch of DK mains complaining about what counters them hardest.

So which counters DK's the hardest, bleeds defiles or sloads? Cause saying "all 3, NERRRRRF" isn't a viable argument for nerfing bleeds. Plenty of things other than those 3 mechanics have put a crimp on "stand your ground" playstyle: emphasis on mobility, poisons, changes in block calculations, heavy armor nerfs.

Block+Major Vitality+Mending+Lingering Health+Troll King+healing skills (there are other things like CP, health regen, and set procs as well) needs a viable counter. You act like bleeds are on par with Shieldbreaker, which btw has existed unchanged for a long time now. And now with Defile sources nerfed and Befoul not working healing essentially got another buff. Bleeds are strong but fine, I'm fine with TTK being a bit lower, and yes for tanky DK's too. Cause you don't use defensive/sustain sets to reach BFG levels of damage, you have to build for it. Are we supposed to go for Dizzying Swing combos on blocking DK's? That's a sure way to end up in someone's 1vX clip.

I mean one of you even conceded that they could handle bleeds 1v1 but it's in Xv1 situations that they're OP...

Well done. You both missed and validated my points.

The guy before me, and half this thread to be honest, was looking at bleeds in a vaccum. "Pssh, 3k dps is easy to heal out."
Conveniently forgettinh to add all the other factors that bleeds can be stacked in. If it was just unresistable 3k/s damage it would be fine, just like sloads by itself wasn't bad. But it is uncounterable, unresistable and can be combo'd with things.

It is exactly like shield breaker too. Around and often over 3k unresistable damage mixed with whatever else that you need to basically either kill them or escape, because your defense isn't doing anything. It like shieldbreaker, is a hard counter that should be weakened. I don't advocate keeping it. The difference is that bleeds are more rife than shieldbreaker.

How would you kill a tank: You do exactly what non bleed builds do, and what bleed builds should have to do. Either kill them with normal, soft counter dots and pressure their healthbar, or if you can't ignore them and realize they are just a useless tank which does basically nothing.(Healbots are different since they provide support, bleeds don't even work vs these)

You don't use def sets for damage, yes, you do have to build for damage, yes. But you (sorcs/blades mainly) have inbuilt non mitigation defense methods, cloak, shields for instance. If you have damage on a mitigation based defense build, you lose defense, wheras if you do it on a non mit build, you don't lose as much.

Not arguing the gist of that but honestly, you shouldn't put bleeds and oblivion damage on the same level and call them unresistable, when only one of them isn't affected by any means of mitigation. It devalues your overall message since you should know that there are other means of mitigation outside of armor resistance, the only mitigation that bleeds ignore.

CaliMade

To the people saying points into thick skinned helps and so does crit resist.

On my stam dk i run 3100 Crit resist and 56 points into thick skinned. The highest damage remember taking on my dk is nearly 10k over 4 ticks. on average i see 6k over 3 ticks, with 2-3 different bleeds in my feed.

Bleeds need adjusting.

ak_pvp

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Put 3 of them together, 3k passive unresistable DPS. Pretty OK I suppose. Then add sloads, another 850, with active offense like a spammable, and then defiles to gimp your healing. All in all about 6k dps where your healing stacks are doing maybe 2k.

As the lord once said: That's alot of damage.

That's 3 different mechanics you're describing there man. Anyone who knows anything about PvP knows bleeds are strong but at the same time, I'm sure plenty notice the pattern in this thread... A bunch of DK mains complaining about what counters them hardest.

So which counters DK's the hardest, bleeds defiles or sloads? Cause saying "all 3, NERRRRRF" isn't a viable argument for nerfing bleeds. Plenty of things other than those 3 mechanics have put a crimp on "stand your ground" playstyle: emphasis on mobility, poisons, changes in block calculations, heavy armor nerfs.

Block+Major Vitality+Mending+Lingering Health+Troll King+healing skills (there are other things like CP, health regen, and set procs as well) needs a viable counter. You act like bleeds are on par with Shieldbreaker, which btw has existed unchanged for a long time now. And now with Defile sources nerfed and Befoul not working healing essentially got another buff. Bleeds are strong but fine, I'm fine with TTK being a bit lower, and yes for tanky DK's too. Cause you don't use defensive/sustain sets to reach BFG levels of damage, you have to build for it. Are we supposed to go for Dizzying Swing combos on blocking DK's? That's a sure way to end up in someone's 1vX clip.

I mean one of you even conceded that they could handle bleeds 1v1 but it's in Xv1 situations that they're OP...

Well done. You both missed and validated my points.

The guy before me, and half this thread to be honest, was looking at bleeds in a vaccum. "Pssh, 3k dps is easy to heal out."
Conveniently forgettinh to add all the other factors that bleeds can be stacked in. If it was just unresistable 3k/s damage it would be fine, just like sloads by itself wasn't bad. But it is uncounterable, unresistable and can be combo'd with things.

It is exactly like shield breaker too. Around and often over 3k unresistable damage mixed with whatever else that you need to basically either kill them or escape, because your defense isn't doing anything. It like shieldbreaker, is a hard counter that should be weakened. I don't advocate keeping it. The difference is that bleeds are more rife than shieldbreaker.

How would you kill a tank: You do exactly what non bleed builds do, and what bleed builds should have to do. Either kill them with normal, soft counter dots and pressure their healthbar, or if you can't ignore them and realize they are just a useless tank which does basically nothing.(Healbots are different since they provide support, bleeds don't even work vs these)

You don't use def sets for damage, yes, you do have to build for damage, yes. But you (sorcs/blades mainly) have inbuilt non mitigation defense methods, cloak, shields for instance. If you have damage on a mitigation based defense build, you lose defense, wheras if you do it on a non mit build, you don't lose as much.

Not arguing the gist of that but honestly, you shouldn't put bleeds and oblivion damage on the same level and call them unresistable, when only one of them isn't affected by any means of mitigation. It devalues your overall message since you should know that there are other means of mitigation outside of armor resistance, the only mitigation that bleeds ignore.

You can only reduce it so much with % modifiers as a DK/Warden or heavy stamsorc. And since bleed is stronger than oblivion at base, after % reduction each bleed is about sloads tier and you can't really do anything else against it.

pieratsos

Waffennacht wrote: »

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pieratsos wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Seems like DKs in particular are struggling a lot with this. Which is interesting cus they are still some of the most durable and difficult to kill specs in the game. Bleeds are one of the only reliable ways to dent a sturdy dk for a stam build. How do you counter bleeds? With healing. Literally the counter to damage is heals, and healing is something dragonknights have an over abundance of. People asserting bleeds are a counter don’t understand the meaning of the word. Wings are a counter. Mark is a counter. Defile is a counter. Bleeds are just damage, which is “countered” by healing. But I can see why a class used to ez tanking and mitigation might see the one form of damage they cant easily repel as a major balance issue.

I will reiterate that bleeds exist for a reason. They serve a purpose. And you remove that without regard to the overall picture, and you could easily give rise once again to the perma blocking, block casting, “unkillable” to pugs playstyle that zos abhors. And I don’t think they want that.

So how about we actually balance the game instead of throwing band aid fixes that ignore mechanics.

Hell no!

Actually true balance isn't a goal

Underdogs and top dogs provide a more (dunno right word) but it increases sales.

Same marketing tactics are used in TCG (like MTG)

Who said anything about true balance. I'm not talking about everyone being the same. I'm talking about balanced gameplay. If the goal is to abuse people with crap like oblivion dmg and bleeds then no wonder PVP is on a free fall.

Minno

CaliMade wrote: »

To the people saying points into thick skinned helps and so does crit resist.

On my stam dk i run 3100 Crit resist and 56 points into thick skinned. The highest damage remember taking on my dk is nearly 10k over 4 ticks. on average i see 6k over 3 ticks, with 2-3 different bleeds in my feed.

Bleeds need adjusting.

So you are only protecting against a 41% crit DMG modifier? When Templars and nightblades are both getting 70-80%.

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Put 3 of them together, 3k passive unresistable DPS. Pretty OK I suppose. Then add sloads, another 850, with active offense like a spammable, and then defiles to gimp your healing. All in all about 6k dps where your healing stacks are doing maybe 2k.

As the lord once said: That's alot of damage.

That's 3 different mechanics you're describing there man. Anyone who knows anything about PvP knows bleeds are strong but at the same time, I'm sure plenty notice the pattern in this thread... A bunch of DK mains complaining about what counters them hardest.

So which counters DK's the hardest, bleeds defiles or sloads? Cause saying "all 3, NERRRRRF" isn't a viable argument for nerfing bleeds. Plenty of things other than those 3 mechanics have put a crimp on "stand your ground" playstyle: emphasis on mobility, poisons, changes in block calculations, heavy armor nerfs.

Block+Major Vitality+Mending+Lingering Health+Troll King+healing skills (there are other things like CP, health regen, and set procs as well) needs a viable counter. You act like bleeds are on par with Shieldbreaker, which btw has existed unchanged for a long time now. And now with Defile sources nerfed and Befoul not working healing essentially got another buff. Bleeds are strong but fine, I'm fine with TTK being a bit lower, and yes for tanky DK's too. Cause you don't use defensive/sustain sets to reach BFG levels of damage, you have to build for it. Are we supposed to go for Dizzying Swing combos on blocking DK's? That's a sure way to end up in someone's 1vX clip.

I mean one of you even conceded that they could handle bleeds 1v1 but it's in Xv1 situations that they're OP...

That takes a whole lot to counter 1 button. Major Vitality requires pots to have reliable access but still have low up time on top of being on potion cooldown. Then if DK, 4k magicka to Major Mending and slotting Troll King that could have taken other sets just to have effective healing against it. This is all nice in ideal situation, but not gonna have Major Vitality (from Lingering) all the time for the duration of whole fight realistically where as bleeds are applied as simple as just using Rending Slashes and Light/Heavy attack.

Then again all that healing is keeping yourself topped off. It isn't magically stopping at only bleeds lol.

In real circumstance, you are basically on constant potion cd when you are using Immovability pots when outnumbered and occassional tri-pots. Then speed pots. So Major Vitality is basically out the window for the most part.

You are right that heals are not limited to bleeds but no other single player induced DoT require that much healing in this game. Nothing short of siege dots and stacked Sload's basically. And it does not change the fact that this one source of damage alone requires you to give up other options from pots forces you into losing defensive game. No other DoTs take me from full to 50 within 3 seconds. And those DoT build players don't stand around idly. I don't think you stand around idly as well. No other non-siege DoTs currently can do pressuring as effective as this. I'd rather have axe as a some mid way between sword and mace traits. Like half of each traits, this way, axes are still a good choice and axe bleed and Rending bleed don't stack and less stacks to deal with out in the open world in general.

Well you aren't locked to vitality pots; most of the QQ'ers in this thread have a nice access to major mending along with a passive that boosts their healing outside of a named buff.

And in some ways tri pots are still better than most due to the heal+recovery boost (why else are most stamina builds orcs if not for the health recovery boost).

Only thing they need to adjust for bleeds is to stop the dual axe stack and revise class passives to bring everyone up to the line with nightblades.

Crixus8000

I have been saying bleeds are op for a while. They have 0 counter play, hit way too hard and require no skill. They make pvp less skill based than it already is and honestly are just boring to fight against.

I play no cp so I can't reduce their dmg from cp tree.

To give you an idea how powerfull they are I play a pretty tanky char. I aim for a lot of healing mainly to try and counter bleeds. I use lingering pots, healing poisons, vigor, forward momentum, troll king, hp regen food, and crit surge, so I heal a lot. I get 4k hp regen with that and use minor maim, yet just 1 bleed char can kill me in a few seconds.

Most people use master axes that can apply their own bleed and increase the bleed from rending slashes, and then carry a 2h axe for more bleeds. these are very easy to apply and if just one player built like this attacks you that's around 5k dmg a second that Ignores resistances. Add in a proc set like sloads/viper and major defile and it's impossible to defend against.

Crixus8000

Aztlan wrote: »

Bleeds are strong but not OP. They are a good counter against tanky players with high resistances and all of those squirrelly, swifty players. Besides, if I choose a build that buffs bleed damage, I'm sacrificing something else, such as burst. This game is like rock-paper-scissors sometimes and that's fine.

Those tanky players are sacrificing dmg to be tanky, yet bleeds kills them in a few seconds, hardly seems balanced.

Also bleeds don't really sacrifice anything, you can apply 3 bleed ticks very easily and still have high burst. Not that you even need high burst since the bleeds deal so much dmg. It's not rock-paper-scissors, it's bleeds beat everything.

They are stupidly easy to apply, deal insane levels of damage and have 0 counters.

Look at all the replies for people mentioning counters. I have more heals than most people will run and 4k hp regen with 25k hp in no cp and use minor maim, and still die in a few seconds to a bleed build..........

CyrusArya

Crixus8000 wrote: »

To give you an idea how powerfult they are I play a pretty tanky char. I aim for a lot of healing mainly to try and counter bleeds. I use lingering pots, healing poisons, vigor, forward momentum, troll king, hp regen food, and crit surge, so I heal a lot. I get 4k hp regen with that, yet just 1 bleed char can kill me in a few seconds.

Sounds like a severe l2p issue tbh. Bleeds are strong, but not that strong. From my experience fighting with and against bleeds (on various classes), competent opponents on ANY class or spec don’t die in a few seconds to bleeds...or anything. Especially when they are using carry sets like troll king and lingering pots...lol. Either you are exaggerating the issue drastically, or have a long way to go in terms of player development. In either case, this isn’t very solid input for balancing.

As far as the application and stacking of bleeds, just because something can happen doesn’t mean it will consistently. The up time for a triple bleed stack is pretty low throughout the course of any given fight. Duels, BGs, open world...they are all too fast paced for all three to be reliably proced all the time.

What I’m getting from this thread is a lot of people really struggle with bleeds and seem to roll over dead at the first sight of them, and that’s behavior that I just don’t see from good players on any class.

flacidstone

If it makes anyone feel any better I’ve had a single rending bleed crit tick for 5.6k on someone in cp cyro. This was most likely first tick after an incap but either way.

Crixus8000

CyrusArya wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

To give you an idea how powerfult they are I play a pretty tanky char. I aim for a lot of healing mainly to try and counter bleeds. I use lingering pots, healing poisons, vigor, forward momentum, troll king, hp regen food, and crit surge, so I heal a lot. I get 4k hp regen with that, yet just 1 bleed char can kill me in a few seconds.

Sounds like a severe l2p issue tbh. Bleeds are strong, but not that strong. From my experience fighting with and against bleeds (on various classes), competent opponents on ANY class or spec don’t die in a few seconds to bleeds...or anything. Especially when they are using carry sets like troll king and lingering pots...lol. Either you are exaggerating the issue drastically, or have a long way to go in terms of player development. In either case, this isn’t very solid input for balancing.

As far as the application and stacking of bleeds, just because something can happen doesn’t mean it will consistently. The up time for a triple bleed stack is pretty low throughout the course of any given fight. Duels, BGs, open world...they are all too fast paced for all three to be reliably proced all the time.

What I’m getting from this thread is a lot of people really struggle with bleeds and seem to roll over dead at the first sight of them, and that’s behavior that I just don’t see from good players on any class.

Learn to play issue ? Lol how, should I learn to block them more ? Learn to purge them on my stam char or maybe get more resists ?

I have been playing pvp a while and I am decent at it, tbh the only build in the game that I really struggle against is bleeds. I play no cp so maybe it's very different, but I have played with bleeds, fought against many bleed builds and seem them in action many times and they overperform more than anything I have seen in the game.

You say they aren't consistent, I have to disagree. I played with them a while and starting with a heavy into rending would usually apply the dw bleed, then while 2 bleed stacks are on I would switch bars and use my spammable while light attack weaving to apply the other. I never once found them to be hard to apply.

casparian

Crixus8000 wrote: »

I play no cp so maybe it's very different,

It is very different. Bleeds were balanced with the existence of Thick-Skinned and Hardy in mind, and in general ZOS has balanced the game around the existence of CP. If bleeds are overpowered in the absence of CP, that's a problem with ZOS' "balance the game around CP but remove them from an entire game mode" model -- not bleeds.