Bleeds Are Overpowered

LeifErickson · August 2018

Bleeds are currently way too strong in Cyrodiil. There is almost no counter play to them at all, yet they also hit harder than just about every other dot. You get two on you and a defile and you are now passively dying and unable to outheal it. You get three on you and no defile and you are now passively dying and unable to outheal it. If there is more than one player attacking you with bleeds, you have almost no chance of winning on pretty much any class except maybe NB. Not even Templars can counter it because the bleeds are so cheap they can just reapply them and the cost of purifiying ritual is super high. Regardless, if you were to purify every time a bleed went on you, that's all you would be doing. You would never be able to go offensive.

Combine bleeds with the new bleed set and sloads and throw in a defile and you are now strong enough to kill 95% of the players in Cyrodiil. Not even NB can do much if they are combined with sloads. Bleeds need to be looked at and toned down.

Edit:
To give you an idea of how overpowered bleeds are, look what people rated stamplar dot damage in this image. Stamplars have like one class dot if you can even call power of the light a dot.

Aztlan · August 2018

Bleeds are strong but not OP. They are a good counter against tanky players with high resistances and all of those squirrelly, swifty players. Besides, if I choose a build that buffs bleed damage, I'm sacrificing something else, such as burst. This game is like rock-paper-scissors sometimes and that's fine.

olsborg · August 2018

I just yesterday put in a feedback about bleeds and how strong and popular they are these days, and understandably so. Its relatively balanced 1v1, but as soon as you get 2-3 or even 4 bleeding dots on you (some ppl can get 2 passive bleeds if running dw and 2h) you will melt away with no real counter.

ak_pvp · August 2018

Aztlan wrote: »

Bleeds are strong but not OP. They are a good counter against tanky players with high resistances and all of those squirrelly, swifty players. Besides, if I choose a build that buffs bleed damage, I'm sacrificing something else, such as burst. This game like rock-paper-scissors sometimes and that's fine.

No, they are a hard counter. A counter which you can reliably play against unless you are a certain type. A good counter is normal dots, AoEs etc. Something that can't be blocked, adds pressure but isn't too strong, and in which the slower tank would either have to endure or move from (lowering that tankiness)

You don't really give up anything for bleeds, especially for noCP just slap a master dw axes on with rending and watch people melt.

HankTwo · August 2018

Recently I talked with some magsorcs about bleeds, and they told me that those builds are very strong even against them. Which from a balance point of view seems bad, because bleeds should be - relatively speaking - weak against shielded light armor targets, since their defining strength, being able to bypass resistances, is mostly irrelevant there.

Tbh I think the biggest problem with bleeds is that they are just too damn resource efficient. You can get both passive bleed procs without spending a single drop of stamina. On top of that, master dw slashes do a huge amount of damage for the resources they costs.

Solariken · August 2018

I like the damage strength of bleeds, but I agree they are WAY too gd cheap and easy to apply passively.

I'm not sure what the answer is but dual wield needs to be looked at overall. It's far too easy to pile on a bunch of free damage while weaving heavies.

CatchMeTrolling · August 2018

They are a little over tuned but they have been for awhile it’s just the fact everyone is catching on to how good dots are and bleeds happen to be the best one.

Aedaryl · August 2018

BLEED ARE OP agaisnt everyone.

The problem of bleed is the damage.

BLEED DAMAGE IS INSANE. Even when damaging shield (which have 0 resistances), bleed deal far too much damage.

Nerf bleed damage.

Escorpiao_Noturno · August 2018

I agree. Bleeds to OP now.

Even for a tank is reallly hard to heal against bleeds.

Bleeds + Sloads+ Defile = DEAD

NERF BLEEDs PLEASE ZOS

Aztlan · August 2018

There is nothing easy about having Masters axes. Those things are a royal pain to farm, and if you use them, you sacrifice the 4 and 5 piece bonuses of another set in order to buff Rend. Given that, they should be very strong imo.

Minno · August 2018

Bleeds are reduced by percentage based mitigation and are subject to crits therefore impen plays a larger role in mitigating bleeds. Minor maim as well.

Current meta most builds are stacking armor. But it ignores physical resist and dots are really efficient against shields so..... Yea. Not surprised everyone is having issues with bleeds but trying to blame it on bleeds.

I think I maybe saw only one or two builds rolling 20% into thick skin and higher than 3k crit resists? And with everyone dropping wizard bleeds are looking better this patch generally speaking.

Master weapons on the other hand might be needed to tune down. And maybe not being able to stack 2 axe procs from DW/2H. But other than that the counters are there outside of purge/cloak.

LegendaryMage · August 2018

You need at least 30%+ crit resistance and at least 20%+ thick skinned on a stam setup in PVP before you even port Cyrodiil. This applies to stamplars/magplars also. Especially to them since they're under the illusion that they're safer than others.

LeifErickson · August 2018

Minno wrote: »

But other than that the counters are there outside of purge/cloak.

What are the counters you speak of?

ak_pvp · August 2018

LegendaryMage wrote: »

You need at least 30%+ crit resistance and at least 20%+ thick skinned on a stam setup in PVP before you even port Cyrodiil. This applies to stamplars/magplars also. Especially to them since they're under the illusion that they're safer than others.

*Goes to noCP and dies.*

_Ahala_ · August 2018

I think they are talking about protection, maim, and thick skin cp... Thses are the opposites of beserk, sorcery/brutality, and thoumaturge cp... but even with all these counters, bleeds are still too cheep for their effectiveness

LegendaryMage · August 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

You need at least 30%+ crit resistance and at least 20%+ thick skinned on a stam setup in PVP before you even port Cyrodiil. This applies to stamplars/magplars also. Especially to them since they're under the illusion that they're safer than others.

*Goes to noCP and dies.*

You're fine, there's no offensive CPs there either.

Brutusmax1mus · August 2018

I love applying 4 bleeds with a stampede, carve, rending slashes. It ticks for like 4k total damage or something ridiculous. On a stam sorc dot build your implosion is op too.

Minno · August 2018

LeifErickson wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

But other than that the counters are there outside of purge/cloak.

What are the counters you speak of?

stop slotting bloodspawn thinking its going to BIS when all your fights are against bleeds that ignore the resists from that set?

Maybe get troll king instead? Or roll minor/major protection? Have a templar buddy for free synergy purges?
Dodge roll the melee attacks to avoid bleed procs? LOS and cloak the dots entirely?

Stop pretending there aren't things you can do to adjust.

SodanTok · August 2018

They are kinda stronger than they should be. Building for defense against them doesnt pay off well enough but also agree than most people dont actually try building for defense, making it seems they are stronger than they are (hello all 66 CP ironclad 37CP thick skin complainers in fortified brass or SnB etc, I know there is many of you)

Sharee · August 2018

Bleeds are borderline overpowered even with normal weapons.
Add master axes rending slashes and it's lights out.

DocFrost72 · August 2018

I suspect that first paragraph is a copy/paste of old nerf sloads posts. Watch.

LeifErickson wrote: »

*Sloads* are currently way too strong in Cyrodiil. There is almost no counter play to them at all, yet they also hit harder than just about every other dot. You get two on you and a defile and you are now passively dying and unable to outheal it. You get three on you and no defile and you are now passively dying and unable to outheal it. If there is more than one player attacking you with *sloads*, you have almost no chance of winning on pretty much any class except maybe NB. Not even Templars can counter it because the *sloads just reprocs* they can just reapply them and the cost of purifiying ritual is super high. Regardless, if you were to purify every time a *sloads* went on you, that's all you would be doing. You would never be able to go offensive.

Minno · August 2018

Also, POTL isn't a dot, it's delayed burst. Stamplar's only spamable DOT is jabs; maybe even crescent sweep AOE pulse as well (if templars actually use it lol).

Still not a compelling reason for a nerf on bleeds.

SodanTok wrote: »

They are kinda stronger than they should be. Building for defense against them doesnt pay off well enough but also agree than most people dont actually try building for defense, making it seems they are stronger than they are (hello all 66 CP ironclad 37CP thick skin complainers in fortified brass or SnB etc, I know there is many of you)

Right?! Dropping of wizard reposte across multiple builds making it worse too. Though some are going to slot minor protection/heartland set (where heartland will do 25%*5% against an AOE bleed like carve and 5%*8% minor protection against all other bleeds.).

LeifErickson · August 2018

Minno wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

But other than that the counters are there outside of purge/cloak.

What are the counters you speak of?

stop slotting bloodspawn thinking its going to BIS when all your fights are against bleeds that ignore the resists from that set?

Maybe get troll king instead? Or roll minor/major protection? Have a templar buddy for free synergy purges?
Dodge roll the melee attacks to avoid bleed procs? LOS and cloak the dots entirely?

Stop pretending there aren't things you can do to adjust.

None of those are realistic counters at all and you know it.

The_Brosteen · August 2018

olsborg wrote: »

I just yesterday put in a feedback about bleeds and how strong and popular they are these days, and understandably so. Its relatively balanced 1v1, but as soon as you get 2-3 or even 4 bleeding dots on you (some ppl can get 2 passive bleeds if running dw and 2h) you will melt away with no real counter.

Soooo when fighting multiple people you are at a disadvantage?

Welcome to pvp in eso

Waffennacht · August 2018

The counter to bleeds is the same counter to Oblivion damage...

Personally, I'm feeling health regen is the strongest counter (not a solid counter, but enough to give you breathing room)

Aztlan · August 2018

Troll King.

The_Brosteen · August 2018

LeifErickson wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

But other than that the counters are there outside of purge/cloak.

What are the counters you speak of?

stop slotting bloodspawn thinking its going to BIS when all your fights are against bleeds that ignore the resists from that set?

Maybe get troll king instead? Or roll minor/major protection? Have a templar buddy for free synergy purges?
Dodge roll the melee attacks to avoid bleed procs? LOS and cloak the dots entirely?

Stop pretending there aren't things you can do to adjust.

None of those are realistic counters at all and you know it.

Those are all realistic counters and everyone knows it.*

There you go, fixed it

Mrsinister2 · August 2018

Most times I get completly wrecked I have 2 10k bleeds on my recap and I cleanse often. I'm not sure cleanse even helps or there just reapplied instantly maybe?

IZZEFlameLash · August 2018

Bleeds are too strong right now. It finishes off non-tanks within few seconds and tanks a bit longer. It's quite funny to watch 2 bleed builds fight each other. It is a contest of who gets the axe proc first and it goes into the favor of the one who gets it and the person that has DoT on them just suddenly dies unable to heal even. You may say it is a tank counter or something, but just like Sload's, it hurts non-tanks even more. Also hilarious to watch how applying bleed and then DBoSing finishes off most non-HA wearers (because of inherent smaller health pool and less resistance to resist DBoS damage). Very balance. Wow.

Glory · August 2018

Minno wrote: »

Bleeds are reduced by percentage based mitigation and are subject to crits therefore impen plays a larger role in mitigating bleeds. Minor maim as well.

Current meta most builds are stacking armor. But it ignores physical resist and dots are really efficient against shields so..... Yea. Not surprised everyone is having issues with bleeds but trying to blame it on bleeds.

I think I maybe saw only one or two builds rolling 20% into thick skin and higher than 3k crit resists? And with everyone dropping wizard bleeds are looking better this patch generally speaking.

Master weapons on the other hand might be needed to tune down. And maybe not being able to stack 2 axe procs from DW/2H. But other than that the counters are there outside of purge/cloak.

I play a build setup with better than those stats you suggest, and can definitely say that fighting against capable opponents the bleed damage present consistently tops my incoming damage.

Rending slashes alone crits over 1200 DoTs on me, and I have plenty of percentage based mitigation (major protection, transmutation, impen, what have you). Reading Leif's post, he mentions that the issue is that the damage on bleeds is high enough that 2-3 on you at a time is fairly insurmountable. I agree, as having three 1200 DoT ticks rolling against one person is 3600 effective DPS on top of other damage (spammables etc.), and that's not even considering the other DoT procs.

Minno wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

But other than that the counters are there outside of purge/cloak.

What are the counters you speak of?

stop slotting bloodspawn thinking its going to BIS when all your fights are against bleeds that ignore the resists from that set?

Maybe get troll king instead? Or roll minor/major protection? Have a templar buddy for free synergy purges?
Dodge roll the melee attacks to avoid bleed procs? LOS and cloak the dots entirely?

Stop pretending there aren't things you can do to adjust.

As I mentioned above, I have been in situations where I have troll king (from an ally), major protection, transmutation, and my own purifies. Yes, they are more effective than say bloodspawn in "countering" the bleed damage, but Leif's post is about how bleeds in particular are far too effective currently in the damage:cost:uptime ratio.

Glory · August 2018

Also, the presence of too many debuffs makes cleansing fairly unrealistic.

As other's have pointed out, it's crazy to think it's balanced that rending slashes applies 2 debuffs with barely any resource cost, but cleanses cost ridiculous amounts. The debuff:cleanse ratio is out of whack.