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4.1.2 Rune cage change is a joke.
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@DDuke
Thats just one side of the coin. Kodi said in one of his streams in which people judged him about only playing stamblade and stamden, that he plays only those classes because those are the "competitive" classes in solo open world and he does not want to play a weaker class because its not fun for him. Dunno about what you are talking about. Some people just like doing their own thing. Also enjoyable content has nothing to do with playing an unpopular class. Enjoyable content is a very subjective concept. Just because you and me dont find sorcs enjoyable to play, it doesnt mean that everyone feel the same way.
Im really not sure why you think kodi thinks in the same way as you do tho. Have you ever watched his content? He is like the epitome of meta and repetitive content. And then he left to play what else, the most popular game out there. The guy is like the exact opposite of you. Doesnt mean his content is not enjoyable to watch. The guy is doing his own thing and he likes what he is doing, kudos to him.
What he thinks/doesn't think is about as irrelevant as what you or I think (ok, slightly more relevant than what you think because I know he's a good player and not some random forum poster), but the last time I saw him streaming few months ago he was on a magicka sorcerer (killing people trying to get to that boat near Alessia Bridge, I have a good memory).
Also I'm not thinking anyone shares my exact mindset, but I'd like to believe people are smart enough and wouldn't make "top 5 series" and then fill it with 5 sorc videos. That doesn't really help with viewer retention.Also do you seriously keep insist on bringing nerf threads as ur argument after u contradicted that argument twice? First you used forums as ur argument of balance. Then you posted that forums are flooded with clueless people because people didnt agree with you, and then you used forums as ur argument of balance again. But somehow im the one that needs to try a different approach? Ok i guess. I mean, there are a couple of nerf threads running now, one guy talking about how shields should be affected by major defile and some other guy talking about 50k shields with spammable 20k burst. Feel free to use stuff like that as ur argument, just dont expect anyone to take you seriously.
Spamming the thread to convince people of something because of how i feel? Thats rich, coming from you. Dude, the only thing you are doing is talking about you and trying to balance the entire game around you and ur builds. Key word is you. You somehow believe that everything has to do with you but its about how i feel? Lmao. You are pure comedy mate.
Eh, I argue from my own perspective, just like you and anyone else who doesn't have a split personality disorder. But what I also do is take other peoples viewpoints into account, even yours, (and even if they're mostly clueless) and then see if the public opinion matches the mathematical metrics (and other cold hard facts that can't be disputed) out there.
You only do the first part: argue based on your personal experiences on a magicka sorcerer. And I don't even know if you are a good player. How am I supposed to take you seriously?Edited by DDuke on August 8, 2018 6:00PM0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭last time I saw him streaming few months ago he was on a magicka sorcerer (killing people trying to get to that boat near Alessia Bridge, I have a good memory).
Also I'm not thinking anyone shares my exact mindset, but I'd like to believe people are smart enough and wouldn't make "top 5 series" and then fill it with 5 sorc videos. That doesn't really help with viewer retention.
That would probably be after summerset. Also dont know whats the purpose of pointing out that he was killing people trying to get on that boat. You can do that on a magden too. Probably even better than a sorc could.
No, he wouldnt fill it with sorcs. Thats because its a top 5 series. Quality is what makes it into the video. Nothing to do with popular or unpopular, performing or underperforming. A sorc killing 3 potatoes is about as impressive as a mDK killing 3 potatoes. Both dont make the cut. He isnt going to put a complete potato clip in the video just because the class isnt good.Eh, I argue from my own perspective, just like you and anyone else who doesn't have a split personality disorder. But what I also do is take other peoples viewpoints into account, even yours, (and even if they're mostly clueless) and then see if the public opinion matches the mathematical metrics (and other cold hard facts that can't be disputed) out there.
And thats precisely the issue with you. You argue just from ur own perspective refusing to see the topic from any other point of view unless its in complete agreement with urs. Thats the whole freaking point. If people in the forums are in agreement with you they are all viewpoints that should be taken into account as a fact. If they dont agree with you, they are all clueless people who dont know what they are talking about and they are all wrong. Lol.
You only do the first part: argue based on your personal experiences on a magicka sorcerer. And I don't even know if you are a good player. How am I supposed to take you seriously?
Nope, wrong again. Go back and read. I am not arguing based on my personal experience as a sorc. I am arguing based on my experience both as a magsorc and against a mag sorc. Im also taking multiple other playstyles into account instead of just my own, i give the benefit of the doubt to other people, i put myself in other people's shoes and try to understand their point of view. This is very obvious if you actually pay attention to what im saying. Ill be happy to quote some posts and explain to help you if you dont understand.
What you are doing however is exactly what you described. You argue only based on ur experience against a sorc with only ur builds in scenarios that you create because obviously everything has to do with you.
You are literally accusing me and calling me clueless because of things that you do. And the sad part is that you cant even see it. But its not like i expected anything else from someone with this mindset.That's because I'm rarely wrongSure, I have an ego. This is not news to me.
Doesn't make me wrong though, so I don't know what the purpose of pointing that out is.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭last time I saw him streaming few months ago he was on a magicka sorcerer (killing people trying to get to that boat near Alessia Bridge, I have a good memory).
Also I'm not thinking anyone shares my exact mindset, but I'd like to believe people are smart enough and wouldn't make "top 5 series" and then fill it with 5 sorc videos. That doesn't really help with viewer retention.
That would probably be after summerset. Also dont know whats the purpose of pointing out that he was killing people trying to get on that boat. You can do that on a magden too. Probably even better than a sorc could.
No, he wouldnt fill it with sorcs. Thats because its a top 5 series. Quality is what makes it into the video. Nothing to do with popular or unpopular, performing or underperforming. A sorc killing 3 potatoes is about as impressive as a mDK killing 3 potatoes. Both dont make the cut. He isnt going to put a complete potato clip in the video just because the class isnt good.
So why bring it up?
And no, there's nothing impressive about sorcerer 1vX right now as it's undisputably the strongest class right now - you'd have to get a ridiculously high amount of kills to seem above average right now with Rune Cage.
What's impressive is doing well with classes/builds that are not "meta".Eh, I argue from my own perspective, just like you and anyone else who doesn't have a split personality disorder. But what I also do is take other peoples viewpoints into account, even yours, (and even if they're mostly clueless) and then see if the public opinion matches the mathematical metrics (and other cold hard facts that can't be disputed) out there.
And thats precisely the issue with you. You argue just from ur own perspective refusing to see the topic from any other point of view unless its in complete agreement with urs. Thats the whole freaking point. If people in the forums are in agreement with you they are all viewpoints that should be taken into account as a fact. If they dont agree with you, they are all clueless people who dont know what they are talking about and they are all wrong. Lol.
Did you read the second part at all?and then see if the public opinion matches the mathematical metrics (and other cold hard facts that can't be disputed) out there.
Facts. Matter.
Often times the public is wrong (i.e. clueless) no matter what they think (even if they agree with you), but luckily it's easy to check that when you understand math & game mechanics.You only do the first part: argue based on your personal experiences on a magicka sorcerer. And I don't even know if you are a good player. How am I supposed to take you seriously?
Nope, wrong again. Go back and read. I am not arguing based on my personal experience as a sorc. I am arguing based on my experience both as a magsorc and against a mag sorc. Im also taking multiple other playstyles into account instead of just my own, i give the benefit of the doubt to other people, i put myself in other people's shoes and try to understand their point of view. This is very obvious if you actually pay attention to what im saying. Ill be happy to quote some posts and explain to help you if you dont understand.
What you are doing however is exactly what you described. You argue only based on ur experience against a sorc with only ur builds in scenarios that you create because obviously everything has to do with you.
You are literally accusing me and calling me clueless because of things that you do. And the sad part is that you cant even see it. But its not like i expected anything else from someone with this mindset.
I create min-maxed scenarios because PvP is a min-maxed environment with builds ranging from low dmg to high dmg, squishy to tanky. If you can't understand that then I guess you don't really even try to understand other points of view (despite claiming to do so).
It has nothing do with my builds, with which you seem fixated. I have tankier characters as well that have no issues surviving Rune Cage (including a magicka sorcerer of my own).
Yes, and I stand by both statements. Do you want to know why I'm rarely wrong? Because I have a lot more experience in this game than most people posting (including you, guaranteed) & a certain degree of proficiency in mathematics & theorycrafting (having played MMOs for close to 20 years now).
Oh boy... I guess I just became twice as egotistical in your mind after stating that and you're already formulating a triggered outburst about my persona (that's called an ad hominem btw, it's a logical fallacy) rather than staying on topic.
At this point it'd be better for you to just agree to disagree and move on - I'm not interested in hearing your monotone opinions about me over and over again (just put me on ignore if I bother you so much).Edited by DDuke on August 9, 2018 7:36PM0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
So why bring it up?
And no, there's nothing impressive about sorcerer 1vX right now as it's undisputably the strongest class right now - you'd have to get a ridiculously high amount of kills to seem above average right now with Rune Cage.
What's impressive is doing well with classes/builds that are not "meta".
You are the one who brought up 1vX clips as ur measure of balance. Not me. Also, right now? You seem to be confused. The discussion is about pre summerset.Did you read the second part at all?and then see if the public opinion matches the mathematical metrics (and other cold hard facts that can't be disputed) out there.
And what are those cold hard facts that cant be disputed? Oh yeah, its always ur opinion. Also when that public opinion includes people shouting 50k shields and spammable 20k bursts i believe the expression "matches the mathematical metrics and other cold hard facts" is already out of the window.
I create min-maxed scenarios because PvP is a min-maxed environment with builds ranging from low dmg to high dmg, squishy to tanky. If you can't understand that then I guess you don't really even try to understand other points of view (despite claiming to do so).
It has nothing do with my builds, with which you seem fixated. I have tankier characters as well that have no issues surviving Rune Cage (including a magicka sorcerer of my own).
And yet ive called rune cage broken more times than i can count despite u desperately trying to tell me that im defending it just to make a point. But why the hell are we still talking about rune cage. I thought the discussion was about pre summerset.Yes, and I stand by both statements. Do you want to know why I'm rarely wrong? Because I have a lot more experience in this game than most people posting (including you, guaranteed) & a certain degree of proficiency in mathematics & theorycrafting (having played MMOs for close to 20 years now).
Oh boy... I guess I just became twice as egotistical in your mind after stating that and you're already formulating a triggered outburst about my persona (that's called an ad hominem btw, it's a logical fallacy) rather than staying on topic.
At this point it'd be better for you to just agree to disagree and move on - I'm not interested in hearing your monotone opinions about me over and over again (just put me on ignore if I bother you so much).
Ever heard of the expression "the only thing i know is that i know nothing". Look it up.
You are so fixated on proving to people that you are right just for the sake of proving u are right. Your arguments are not even about the game. Your arguments are just about you and proving you are right to boost ur ego a little more.
Ad hominem? You do realise that you've been attacking me, calling me clueless and insinuating that im not smart in almost every single post of urs right? At least when im calling you egotistical, its not a logical fallacy. Its actually a cold hard fact that cannot be disputed because you literally admitted to it.
Certain degree of proficiency in mathematics and theorycrafting. What the flying ****. Dude, u are playing a video game which isnt even competetitive and ur last theorycrafted build is a build that basically the game built for you. You are just using some numbers the game gives you and you put them on formulas that the game created for you. You didnt discover a solution to the Navier Stokes equations if you even know what that is. So how about you get off ur high horse and leave the bs for people that actually buy them. I am a civil engineer, not some ***** 12 year old kid that you impress with ur silly math equations. I just dont feel the need to brag about myself on the forums of a freaking video game to feed my epeen.
Edited by pieratsos on August 9, 2018 9:25PM3 -
WreckfulAbandon✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Checkmath
Imo the range should have been reduced to ~20m, well within gap closer range, and the dmg should have been removed. Other than that, it was fine unblockable/undodgable. That way the sorc can still play ranged but has to move closer for the kill. There has always been counterplay to sorc burst since you can see it from a mile away, unless this is another balance change related to Xv1 capability? I play every class and sorcs rarely get their full combos off on me if I'm focused on countering them.
Either way, between the massive QQ and the resulting overnerf, poor form all around. They can't even give us any frags damage back to make this nerf more palatable. Just more "counterplay" for stamblades this patch... Lining up a Lethal Arrow stun from stealth + Ambush + Incap + finisher will still be possible, takes less time to setup, all hits in 1-2 GCD. Often non telegraphed the way LA works and you can fire off that combo much more often than Meteor combos. I guess the counterplay to NB's is to assume that one is always setting up a kill combo from stealth? And failing their combos carries less risk, Cloak says hi. And people complain about "counterplay" from the class with the most telegraphed burst?PC NA
All my comments are regarding PvP1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
So why bring it up?
And no, there's nothing impressive about sorcerer 1vX right now as it's undisputably the strongest class right now - you'd have to get a ridiculously high amount of kills to seem above average right now with Rune Cage.
What's impressive is doing well with classes/builds that are not "meta".
You are the one who brought up 1vX clips as ur measure of balance. Not me. Also, right now? You seem to be confused. The discussion is about pre summerset.
Yes I did, in an entirely different context. Try to keep up.
You are the one who brought up Kodi's top 5 series as some pathetic attempt to portray mSorcs as some weak underdog class that never got featured because it was so bad:Just look at kodi's top 5 series based on all platforms where any player could send a clip. Almost every single video was bombarded with mDKs and medium armor builds (not just stamblades). Mag sorcs average one feature in every other video. Even magplars were featured more than sorcs.
...only to backtrack few posts later:No, he wouldnt fill it with sorcs. Thats because its a top 5 series. Quality is what makes it into the video. Nothing to do with popular or unpopular, performing or underperforming.Did you read the second part at all?and then see if the public opinion matches the mathematical metrics (and other cold hard facts that can't be disputed) out there.
And what are those cold hard facts that cant be disputed? Oh yeah, its always ur opinion. Also when that public opinion includes people shouting 50k shields and spammable 20k bursts i believe the expression "matches the mathematical metrics and other cold hard facts" is already out of the window.
When people complain about sorc burst, they are correct based on math. It's not an opinion, it's numbers - unless sorcs are so "weak" that even the laws of mathematics want nothing to do with them.
When the same people complain about sorc shields, they are not correct based on math (you can build enough burst to get through shields on other classes). This is also a fact.
Public opinion is that sorcs are overperforming as can be seen on polls and threads around the forum. Yep, also a fact (even after applying margin of error to polls).
Pretty much everything else in this thread? Opinions.
I create min-maxed scenarios because PvP is a min-maxed environment with builds ranging from low dmg to high dmg, squishy to tanky. If you can't understand that then I guess you don't really even try to understand other points of view (despite claiming to do so).
It has nothing do with my builds, with which you seem fixated. I have tankier characters as well that have no issues surviving Rune Cage (including a magicka sorcerer of my own).
And yet ive called rune cage broken more times than i can count despite u desperately trying to tell me that im defending it just to make a point. But why the hell are we still talking about rune cage. I thought the discussion was about pre summerset.
Cool, are you going to repeat for the 27th time your opinions about how "weak" the class with the highest burst & some of the best defensive tools in the entire game was before summerset?Yes, and I stand by both statements. Do you want to know why I'm rarely wrong? Because I have a lot more experience in this game than most people posting (including you, guaranteed) & a certain degree of proficiency in mathematics & theorycrafting (having played MMOs for close to 20 years now).
Oh boy... I guess I just became twice as egotistical in your mind after stating that and you're already formulating a triggered outburst about my persona (that's called an ad hominem btw, it's a logical fallacy) rather than staying on topic.
At this point it'd be better for you to just agree to disagree and move on - I'm not interested in hearing your monotone opinions about me over and over again (just put me on ignore if I bother you so much).
Ever heard of the expression "the only thing i know is that i know nothing". Look it up.
You are so fixated on proving to people that you are right just for the sake of proving u are right. Your arguments are not even about the game. Your arguments are just about you and proving you are right to boost ur ego a little more.
My arguments are and have always been about the game.
It is you who keeps bringing up my persona because I talk about builds I play (i.e. my perspective) when it comes to balance issues of the game. If you haven't noticed, literally every post you make is hostile and points fingers at me.
I'm surprised that the forum moderators haven't stepped in yet because unconstructive people like you have no business on the forums.Ad hominem? You do realise that you've been attacking me, calling me clueless and insinuating that im not smart in almost every single post of urs right? At least when im calling you egotistical, its not a logical fallacy. Its actually a cold hard fact that cannot be disputed because you literally admitted to it.
I don't need to insinuate anything, you're doing well on your own.
And yes, I have a big ego (and I have no problem admitting that). Very fascinating, keep digging for more illogical reasons why I must be wrong.
Also there's a difference between a false statement and a fallacy (which an ad hominem is). A logical fallacy is a flaw in reasoning - i.e. you are attacking my persona & not my argument - two completely uncorrelated subjects.Certain degree of proficiency in mathematics and theorycrafting. What the flying ****. Dude, u are playing a video game which isnt even competetitive and ur last theorycrafted build is a build that basically the game built for you. You are just using some numbers the game gives you and you put them on formulas that the game created for you.
Yes, that's pretty much what theorycrafting is, using numbers in the game and trying to figure out the optimal combination of variables. Where you are wrong though is that the game would "create" these formulas or builds - that part is on the players.
There are similar aspects in all competitive sports out there.You didnt discover a solution to the Navier Stokes equations if you even know what that is. So how about you get off ur high horse and leave the bs for people that actually buy them. I am a civil engineer, not some ***** 12 year old kid that you impress with ur silly math equations. I just dont feel the need to brag about myself on the forums of a freaking video game to feed my epeen.
Lmao.
Imagine if some random nobody with no idea what he was talking about started debating the intricacies of road construction with you, Mr. civil engineer, and then started raging at you when you explained why he was wrong.
Nothing to do with "bragging" or "epeen", but sometimes logic dictates you just gently need to remind people who otherwise don't listen that you are more likely to be correct than they are simply based on merits & proficiency on the subject.Edited by DDuke on August 9, 2018 11:10PM0 -
RinaldoGandolphi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Rinaldo Gandolphi-Breton Sorcerer Daggerfall Covenant
Juste Gandolphi Dark Elf Templar Daggerfall Covenant
Richter Gandolphi - Dark Elf Dragonknight Daggerfall Covenant
Mathias Gandolphi - Breton Nightblade Daggerfall Covenant
RinaldoGandolphi - High Elf Sorcerer Aldmeri Dominion
Officer Fire and Ice
Co-GM - MVP
Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)
"Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭How about this?- Rework frags
- Give instant cast and reduced cost proc to Crystal Frags, Crystal Blast, and whatever the base skill is.
- Remove the increased damage from the instant cast proc
- Give Frags its stun back (but now without the increased damage)
- Keep Blast's AoE damage, but remove its stun (so now it has an instant cast proc, but doesn't stun)
- Now we have two equally-attractive morphs; the PvE sorc will want Blast for the added AoE damage (whereas before, nobody in their right mind would want to use Blast), and the PvP sorc will want Frags for the CC, but without the bonus damage, it wouldn't be as OP as it used to be
- Make Rune Prison and Rune Cage melee-range abilities, much like the DK's, and revert all other changes made to Rune Cage during this PTS cycle.
What would this fix?- Crystal Blast will be actually useful.
- Rune Cage keeps its 5s duration, unblockability and undodgeability, but is now a short-range CC. That's a good tradeoff for the raw power of that 5s, unblockable, unreflectable, undodgeable CC.
- Sorcs get back their old long-ranged CC--which was more balanced than Rune Cage because it was blockable/dodgeable/reflectable. But now without the damage bonus.
Everyone's happy, right? @ZOS_Wrobel
There is a reason you are not employed by Zos. Your combat ideas make sense.1 - Rework frags
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usmguy1234✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is no point in reverting cage into pre-Summerset state (and that’s exactly what happened in 4.1.2). If you don’t remember, almost no one were using it then, and were running master destro + reach.
Damage component is completely useless now, since no one will sit being CCed for 5 seconds, you could have just complexly removed it.
Please, if you decided to revert the buff, why not to revert drag nerf and just remove cage from the game, reworking it into some kind of dot, maybe.
Is crap right? If they are going to remove the damage from cage then sorcs burst is trash again. They should give us some damage back to frags then.
Spot on.
And if a few K damage on one skills takes them from zero to hero as the Blade boys on this thread claim then it shows balance isn't too far off lol haha
Sorcs where wet for over two patches and the whines where still here.
But now they moaning about mages wrath, or was it overload, or negate or streak or Cage 5 second stun is the issue no its the damage no its not damage its the CC, no ita cos its broken.
Damn im confused. And bored of the whole topic
Problem is the total damage from sorc burst (not Rune Cage alone, though it does contribute to it atm)
or
that Rune Cage has no feasible counterplay.
Pick one. Personally I'd rather see them give the ability counterplay than nerfs to sorc damage.
And you've got nightblades hitting double digit snipes/merciless/incaps on people on a regular basis. I've got a really good almost golded out sorc build and the most I've hit with a frag after the empower change is 12k. Yet sorcs need to be balanced.Zaghigoth- Orc Stamplar
Soul Razor- Altmer Magsorc
Les Drago- Redguard Stamdk
Eirius- Altmer Magdk
Stormifeth- Altmer Magplar
Disclaimer: My comments are a little sarcasm mixed with truth. If you can't handle that don't respond to me.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭usmguy1234 wrote: »There is no point in reverting cage into pre-Summerset state (and that’s exactly what happened in 4.1.2). If you don’t remember, almost no one were using it then, and were running master destro + reach.
Damage component is completely useless now, since no one will sit being CCed for 5 seconds, you could have just complexly removed it.
Please, if you decided to revert the buff, why not to revert drag nerf and just remove cage from the game, reworking it into some kind of dot, maybe.
Is crap right? If they are going to remove the damage from cage then sorcs burst is trash again. They should give us some damage back to frags then.
Spot on.
And if a few K damage on one skills takes them from zero to hero as the Blade boys on this thread claim then it shows balance isn't too far off lol haha
Sorcs where wet for over two patches and the whines where still here.
But now they moaning about mages wrath, or was it overload, or negate or streak or Cage 5 second stun is the issue no its the damage no its not damage its the CC, no ita cos its broken.
Damn im confused. And bored of the whole topic
Problem is the total damage from sorc burst (not Rune Cage alone, though it does contribute to it atm)
or
that Rune Cage has no feasible counterplay.
Pick one. Personally I'd rather see them give the ability counterplay than nerfs to sorc damage.
And you've got nightblades hitting double digit snipes/merciless/incaps on people on a regular basis. I've got a really good almost golded out sorc build and the most I've hit with a frag after the empower change is 12k. Yet sorcs need to be balanced.
Yes, there are skills that individually hit higher than anything in sorc arsenal (except maybe Empowered Overload LAs which I've seen do 30k+ dmg), but that's just it: they're close to the only source of burst that lands during the period.
When you compare the total burst though... this is from page 2 of this thread:DDuke wrote:Using same setup on both characters.
Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery
Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc
NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack
So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0 (for the sake of the argument)
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst
and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst
Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238
Without Cage damage, without Fury & lands faster (i.e. over 1GCD rather than over 2 like the NB one) than the magblade burst that is considered one of the highest bursts in game.
Nothing wrong with that of course, not when it can be avoided (as I wrote on the post you replied to).Edited by DDuke on August 10, 2018 12:53AM0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yo, Duke, you forgot Cripple and Shade in your calculation. You forgot to subtract 15% damage from the sorc for Maim, and another ~8% for the free resistance buff. And add another 8% max magicka into the NB calculation for the free Siphoner passive.
You could also use Shooting Star into Fear into Merciless, all guaranteed. And of course, Skoria hits unmitigated as well in my theoretical calculation.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yo, Duke, you forgot Cripple and Shade in your calculation. You forgot to subtract 15% damage from the sorc for Maim, and another ~8% for the free resistance buff. And add another 8% max magicka into the NB calculation for the free Siphoner passive.
You could also use Shooting Star into Fear into Merciless, all guaranteed. And of course, Skoria hits unmitigated as well in my theoretical calculation.
Yeah, I also "forgot" sorc pets, Implosion etc.
I am comparing burst, not a duel between the two.
Siphoner passive is of course included in the NB burst.
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Mass Hysteria
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Shooting Star 14 324+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=17 188
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=18 989
47 773 tooltip burst
+60%(CritModifier)=76 436
...meaning that you spent 130 more ultimate to deal less damage than you would with an Incap combo.
Also, far from "guaranteed". Good luck being within 6m melee range of anyone right before a Meteor lands, pretty much requires Lotus Fan and a target that doesn't just dodge roll backwards out of fear range when you go for the gap closer.0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No pets in open world. Come on, man.
Implosion is a waste, except against tanky builds. And even then, the chance is so low, it really is a lucky shot. Implosion is for PvE or stamsorcs.
But your ulti paragraph is interesting. Basically, you admitted that Incap is cheaper and better than the best ultimate sorcs have.
Doesn't matter. Sorcs get nerfed to below-DB-strength. Do you think your time spent here was worth it? Was it really that bad having a real contender for best PvP class for three months? Instead of creating an exciting new build, now you're stuck with your old build for at least another three months, as are sorcs. Is that the desired outcome here? Nerfs instead of innovation and progress?4 -
Ender1310✭✭✭✭Everyone can't be wrong...there are a massive amount of player base complaining about rune cage/shield stacking. They are all wrong? Like really? All of them?2 -
usmguy1234✭✭✭✭✭
✭usmguy1234 wrote: »There is no point in reverting cage into pre-Summerset state (and that’s exactly what happened in 4.1.2). If you don’t remember, almost no one were using it then, and were running master destro + reach.
Damage component is completely useless now, since no one will sit being CCed for 5 seconds, you could have just complexly removed it.
Please, if you decided to revert the buff, why not to revert drag nerf and just remove cage from the game, reworking it into some kind of dot, maybe.
Is crap right? If they are going to remove the damage from cage then sorcs burst is trash again. They should give us some damage back to frags then.
Spot on.
And if a few K damage on one skills takes them from zero to hero as the Blade boys on this thread claim then it shows balance isn't too far off lol haha
Sorcs where wet for over two patches and the whines where still here.
But now they moaning about mages wrath, or was it overload, or negate or streak or Cage 5 second stun is the issue no its the damage no its not damage its the CC, no ita cos its broken.
Damn im confused. And bored of the whole topic
Problem is the total damage from sorc burst (not Rune Cage alone, though it does contribute to it atm)
or
that Rune Cage has no feasible counterplay.
Pick one. Personally I'd rather see them give the ability counterplay than nerfs to sorc damage.
And you've got nightblades hitting double digit snipes/merciless/incaps on people on a regular basis. I've got a really good almost golded out sorc build and the most I've hit with a frag after the empower change is 12k. Yet sorcs need to be balanced.
Yes, there are skills that individually hit higher than anything in sorc arsenal (except maybe Empowered Overload LAs which I've seen do 30k+ dmg), but that's just it: they're close to the only source of burst that lands during the period.
When you compare the total burst though... this is from page 2 of this thread:DDuke wrote:Using same setup on both characters.
Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery
Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc
NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack
So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0 (for the sake of the argument)
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst
and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst
Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238
Without Cage damage, without Fury & lands faster (i.e. over 1GCD rather than over 2 like the NB one) than the magblade burst that is considered one of the highest bursts in game.
Nothing wrong with that of course, not when it can be avoided (as I wrote on the post you replied to).
Your calculation only has 2 skills for the nightblade vs 3 from the sorc... add in swallow and you're at the sorc damage maybe more if you consider the 8% extra mag from siphoning. Also, I'd take merciless any day over the neutered frags that us sorcs have.Edited by usmguy1234 on August 10, 2018 2:34AMZaghigoth- Orc Stamplar
Soul Razor- Altmer Magsorc
Les Drago- Redguard Stamdk
Eirius- Altmer Magdk
Stormifeth- Altmer Magplar
Disclaimer: My comments are a little sarcasm mixed with truth. If you can't handle that don't respond to me.1 -
WreckfulAbandon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Everyone can't be wrong...there are a massive amount of player base complaining about rune cage/shield stacking. They are all wrong? Like really? All of them?
What's factually and logically correct =/= what's popular
That said, there are good arguments on both sides, but at this point Rune Cage would be better if they just reverted it to old school Rune Cage where it broke on damage. Back when no one complained about it being undodgeable/unblockable. So what exactly changed? Frags got nerfed, Streak got nerfed, Shields got nerfed, sustain got nerfed. Everything got nerfed and suddenly the undodgable and unblockable aspect is the problem?
And stop complaining about shield stacks. It's 2018. Damage has been steadily increasing for awhile now and shields have stayed the same. If that's what you're complaining about, I don't care if the population of India and China are with you. You are just wrong.PC NA
All my comments are regarding PvP1 -
bardx86✭✭✭✭✭
✭
So why bring it up?
And no, there's nothing impressive about sorcerer 1vX right now as it's undisputably the strongest class right now - you'd have to get a ridiculously high amount of kills to seem above average right now with Rune Cage.
What's impressive is doing well with classes/builds that are not "meta".
You are the one who brought up 1vX clips as ur measure of balance. Not me. Also, right now? You seem to be confused. The discussion is about pre summerset.
Yes I did, in an entirely different context. Try to keep up.
You are the one who brought up Kodi's top 5 series as some pathetic attempt to portray mSorcs as some weak underdog class that never got featured because it was so bad:Just look at kodi's top 5 series based on all platforms where any player could send a clip. Almost every single video was bombarded with mDKs and medium armor builds (not just stamblades). Mag sorcs average one feature in every other video. Even magplars were featured more than sorcs.
...only to backtrack few posts later:No, he wouldnt fill it with sorcs. Thats because its a top 5 series. Quality is what makes it into the video. Nothing to do with popular or unpopular, performing or underperforming.Did you read the second part at all?and then see if the public opinion matches the mathematical metrics (and other cold hard facts that can't be disputed) out there.
And what are those cold hard facts that cant be disputed? Oh yeah, its always ur opinion. Also when that public opinion includes people shouting 50k shields and spammable 20k bursts i believe the expression "matches the mathematical metrics and other cold hard facts" is already out of the window.
When people complain about sorc burst, they are correct based on math. It's not an opinion, it's numbers - unless sorcs are so "weak" that even the laws of mathematics want nothing to do with them.
When the same people complain about sorc shields, they are not correct based on math (you can build enough burst to get through shields on other classes). This is also a fact.
Public opinion is that sorcs are overperforming as can be seen on polls and threads around the forum. Yep, also a fact (even after applying margin of error to polls).
Pretty much everything else in this thread? Opinions.
I create min-maxed scenarios because PvP is a min-maxed environment with builds ranging from low dmg to high dmg, squishy to tanky. If you can't understand that then I guess you don't really even try to understand other points of view (despite claiming to do so).
It has nothing do with my builds, with which you seem fixated. I have tankier characters as well that have no issues surviving Rune Cage (including a magicka sorcerer of my own).
And yet ive called rune cage broken more times than i can count despite u desperately trying to tell me that im defending it just to make a point. But why the hell are we still talking about rune cage. I thought the discussion was about pre summerset.
Cool, are you going to repeat for the 27th time your opinions about how "weak" the class with the highest burst & some of the best defensive tools in the entire game was before summerset?Yes, and I stand by both statements. Do you want to know why I'm rarely wrong? Because I have a lot more experience in this game than most people posting (including you, guaranteed) & a certain degree of proficiency in mathematics & theorycrafting (having played MMOs for close to 20 years now).
Oh boy... I guess I just became twice as egotistical in your mind after stating that and you're already formulating a triggered outburst about my persona (that's called an ad hominem btw, it's a logical fallacy) rather than staying on topic.
At this point it'd be better for you to just agree to disagree and move on - I'm not interested in hearing your monotone opinions about me over and over again (just put me on ignore if I bother you so much).
Ever heard of the expression "the only thing i know is that i know nothing". Look it up.
You are so fixated on proving to people that you are right just for the sake of proving u are right. Your arguments are not even about the game. Your arguments are just about you and proving you are right to boost ur ego a little more.
My arguments are and have always been about the game.
It is you who keeps bringing up my persona because I talk about builds I play (i.e. my perspective) when it comes to balance issues of the game. If you haven't noticed, literally every post you make is hostile and points fingers at me.
I'm surprised that the forum moderators haven't stepped in yet because unconstructive people like you have no business on the forums.Ad hominem? You do realise that you've been attacking me, calling me clueless and insinuating that im not smart in almost every single post of urs right? At least when im calling you egotistical, its not a logical fallacy. Its actually a cold hard fact that cannot be disputed because you literally admitted to it.
I don't need to insinuate anything, you're doing well on your own.
And yes, I have a big ego (and I have no problem admitting that). Very fascinating, keep digging for more illogical reasons why I must be wrong.
Also there's a difference between a false statement and a fallacy (which an ad hominem is). A logical fallacy is a flaw in reasoning - i.e. you are attacking my persona & not my argument - two completely uncorrelated subjects.Certain degree of proficiency in mathematics and theorycrafting. What the flying ****. Dude, u are playing a video game which isnt even competetitive and ur last theorycrafted build is a build that basically the game built for you. You are just using some numbers the game gives you and you put them on formulas that the game created for you.
Yes, that's pretty much what theorycrafting is, using numbers in the game and trying to figure out the optimal combination of variables. Where you are wrong though is that the game would "create" these formulas or builds - that part is on the players.
There are similar aspects in all competitive sports out there.You didnt discover a solution to the Navier Stokes equations if you even know what that is. So how about you get off ur high horse and leave the bs for people that actually buy them. I am a civil engineer, not some ***** 12 year old kid that you impress with ur silly math equations. I just dont feel the need to brag about myself on the forums of a freaking video game to feed my epeen.
Lmao.
Imagine if some random nobody with no idea what he was talking about started debating the intricacies of road construction with you, Mr. civil engineer, and then started raging at you when you explained why he was wrong.
Nothing to do with "bragging" or "epeen", but sometimes logic dictates you just gently need to remind people who otherwise don't listen that you are more likely to be correct than they are simply based on merits & proficiency on the subject.
You know DDuke we have entertained your perspective for some time however its time to just time for you to be less. Could you just go back to ganking from the shadows?1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭usmguy1234 wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »There is no point in reverting cage into pre-Summerset state (and that’s exactly what happened in 4.1.2). If you don’t remember, almost no one were using it then, and were running master destro + reach.
Damage component is completely useless now, since no one will sit being CCed for 5 seconds, you could have just complexly removed it.
Please, if you decided to revert the buff, why not to revert drag nerf and just remove cage from the game, reworking it into some kind of dot, maybe.
Is crap right? If they are going to remove the damage from cage then sorcs burst is trash again. They should give us some damage back to frags then.
Spot on.
And if a few K damage on one skills takes them from zero to hero as the Blade boys on this thread claim then it shows balance isn't too far off lol haha
Sorcs where wet for over two patches and the whines where still here.
But now they moaning about mages wrath, or was it overload, or negate or streak or Cage 5 second stun is the issue no its the damage no its not damage its the CC, no ita cos its broken.
Damn im confused. And bored of the whole topic
Problem is the total damage from sorc burst (not Rune Cage alone, though it does contribute to it atm)
or
that Rune Cage has no feasible counterplay.
Pick one. Personally I'd rather see them give the ability counterplay than nerfs to sorc damage.
And you've got nightblades hitting double digit snipes/merciless/incaps on people on a regular basis. I've got a really good almost golded out sorc build and the most I've hit with a frag after the empower change is 12k. Yet sorcs need to be balanced.
Yes, there are skills that individually hit higher than anything in sorc arsenal (except maybe Empowered Overload LAs which I've seen do 30k+ dmg), but that's just it: they're close to the only source of burst that lands during the period.
When you compare the total burst though... this is from page 2 of this thread:DDuke wrote:Using same setup on both characters.
Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery
Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc
NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack
So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0 (for the sake of the argument)
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst
and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst
Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238
Without Cage damage, without Fury & lands faster (i.e. over 1GCD rather than over 2 like the NB one) than the magblade burst that is considered one of the highest bursts in game.
Nothing wrong with that of course, not when it can be avoided (as I wrote on the post you replied to).
Your calculation only has 2 skills for the nightblade vs 3 from the sorc... add in swallow and you're at the sorc damage maybe more if you consider the 8% extra mag from siphoning. Also, I'd take merciless any day over the neutered frags that us sorcs have.
Yes, it has only 2 skills for the nightblade because guess what, that's all the burst you have on a NB - the class has no delayed damage that could land within the same GCD (and literally all their damage is dodgeable btw).No pets in open world. Come on, man.
Implosion is a waste, except against tanky builds. And even then, the chance is so low, it really is a lucky shot. Implosion is for PvE or stamsorcs.
But your ulti paragraph is interesting. Basically, you admitted that Incap is cheaper and better than the best ultimate sorcs have.
Doesn't matter. Sorcs get nerfed to below-DB-strength. Do you think your time spent here was worth it? Was it really that bad having a real contender for best PvP class for three months? Instead of creating an exciting new build, now you're stuck with your old build for at least another three months, as are sorcs. Is that the desired outcome here? Nerfs instead of innovation and progress?
Oh, so now pets don't count either because they dont fit your argument? Ok then, let's see how the burst compares with one Crippling Grasp tick (which is all that can land within the same GCD) & one hit from Shadow Image. But since we're talking about damage that can be dodged before the burst, we'll now add Fury to the sorc rotation as well to land within same GCD (unless you'll now tell me sorcs don't use their execute either?).
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0 (for the sake of the argument)
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10 574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
Fury 10 882+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+4%[Altmer Passive]+5%[Energized])=12 731
67 031 tooltip burst (lands within 1 GCD)
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Crippling Grasp 3476+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4727
Shadow Image 1839+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=2501
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
56 752 tooltip burst
and after crits:
67 031+50%=100 546
56 752+60%=90 803
...and this is assuming Rune Cage is still used - it won't, likely replaced by Reach which adds another:
(4750+2000[Master Destro])+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=7560 (11 340 crit) to the sorc burst
Good sorcs will still do fine... but I do understand why the bad ones feel like complaining about their loss of "I-Win" button.
Game taking some actual skill to play can't be a beneficial prospect for these players.Edited by DDuke on August 10, 2018 10:38AM0 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Good sorcs will still do fine...
Yes, we will kill potatoes like we always have been able to, and just Streak away from the decent players once more. The Sorc QQ won’t end therefore, NBs will still reign supreme, and everything will be just awesome.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.2 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭The real problem with sorc is they are not competitive VS meta builds, and a sorc can't kill a good StamDK/StamSorc/Stamwarden/Stamplar running meta (high resistance with S&B) or a magblade, an other magsorc, a magdk or a magplar without I win button rune cage is currently on live.
Live rune cage is a shame and allow counterplay was needed, nerfed the damage on top of allowing counterplay is directly sending the ability and the sorc to not competitive scene.
Sorc can't kill meta builds because they don't have enough pressure. Their burst can be easely blocked or dodged (rune is not there next patch) and they lack pressure to fit between bursts.
A sorc landing a burst every 6s or 7s vs good players (You need to stack hardened and harness for having safe GCD to set up the burst (fury/curse/reach/frag or meteor combo) the problem of that hight burst is you either one shot the ennemy if he has not enough HP left or the ennemy just reset the fight.
Between the 6-7s between each burst, every class can get full HP because only reach dots and light Attack are "pressuring" the ennemy.
For stamina, vigor and rally HoT outheal sorc "pressure"
For magplar, a single Block + BoL/HoTD out heal sorc "pressure"
For magDK, wings with PL heal outheal sorc "pressure"
For magNB, HoT and shield(s) outheal sorc "pressure"
For magden Shimmering and heal outheal sorc "pressure"
For magsorc Shieldstack out"heal" the sorc "pressure"
Sorc can't kill competitive meta build because theze one are tanky enough to not be pressurize by light attacks and because the sorc burst is telegraphed and easely counterable too by a dodge or a block (the burst should be counterable like that, no counterplay is stupid).
Sorc win vs builds that are really squichy (LA pressure them enough and they have low HP/resistance so they die from the burst) or VS noobs player that aren't able to pressure the sorc (aka force the sorc to shield stack) and that aren't able to proprely heal themself/block/dodge/shield.
Sorc is only able to kill off meta squichy builds and noobs.
The problem come from the sorc gameplay : You need to spend 2-3 GCD for shieldstack and you don't have pressure skills. You give to the ennemy the time to entirely recover. The sorc gameplay make sorc either a uncounterable one shot machine for kill or no kill machine, both of theze sides are unbalanced.
Next patch we go from an extreme to an other.
Sorc need pressure and rune cage should be a skill that give pressure (Strong DoT) and a good counterable stun.
Edited by Aedaryl on August 10, 2018 11:32AM2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Good sorcs will still do fine...
Yes, we will kill potatoes like we always have been able to, and just Streak away from the decent players once more. The Sorc QQ won’t end therefore, NBs will still reign supreme, and everything will be just awesome.
Cool, why don't you go play NB then if you think they'll "still reign supreme" (they don't atm, sorc does as a quick visit to any BG will tell you) after Incap nerf and Heavy Attack range is reduced from 10 to 7 meters.
I know I'll be playing my buffed up mDK next patch and getting easy kills on most of them.Edited by DDuke on August 10, 2018 11:37AM0 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Good sorcs will still do fine...
Yes, we will kill potatoes like we always have been able to, and just Streak away from the decent players once more. The Sorc QQ won’t end therefore, NBs will still reign supreme, and everything will be just awesome.
Cool, why don't you go play NB then if you think they'll "still reign supreme" (they don't atm, sorc does as a quick visit to any BG will tell you) after Incap nerf and Heavy Attack range is reduced from 10 to 7 meters.
I know I'll be playing my buffed up mDK next patch and getting easy kills on most of them.
Since 90+% of BGs are Deathmatch now probably it’s no wonder people are playing a Sorc, until ZOS finally changes the less than well designed scoring system at least.
Me? I’m going to play StamWarden or Stamplar next, if I PvP at all.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭Good sorcs will still do fine...
Yes, we will kill potatoes like we always have been able to, and just Streak away from the decent players once more. The Sorc QQ won’t end therefore, NBs will still reign supreme, and everything will be just awesome.
Cool, why don't you go play NB then if you think they'll "still reign supreme" (they don't atm, sorc does as a quick visit to any BG will tell you) after Incap nerf and Heavy Attack range is reduced from 10 to 7 meters.
I know I'll be playing my buffed up mDK next patch and getting easy kills on most of them.
Since 90+% of BGs are Deathmatch now probably it’s no wonder people are playing a Sorc, until ZOS finally changes the less than well designed scoring system at least.
Me? I’m going to play StamWarden or Stamplar next, if I PvP at all.
Go Gw2 again, it's better0 -
bardx86✭✭✭✭✭
✭The real problem with sorc is they are not competitive VS meta builds, and a sorc can't kill a good StamDK/StamSorc/Stamwarden/Stamplar running meta (high resistance with S&B) or a magblade, an other magsorc, a magdk or a magplar without I win button rune cage is currently on live.
Live rune cage is a shame and allow counterplay was needed, nerfed the damage on top of allowing counterplay is directly sending the ability and the sorc to not competitive scene.
Sorc can't kill meta builds because they don't have enough pressure. Their burst can be easely blocked or dodged (rune is not there next patch) and they lack pressure to fit between bursts.
A sorc landing a burst every 6s or 7s vs good players (You need to stack hardened and harness for having safe GCD to set up the burst (fury/curse/reach/frag or meteor combo) the problem of that hight burst is you either one shot the ennemy if he has not enough HP left or the ennemy just reset the fight.
Between the 6-7s between each burst, every class can get full HP because only reach dots and light Attack are "pressuring" the ennemy.
For stamina, vigor and rally HoT outheal sorc "pressure"
For magplar, a single Block + BoL/HoTD out heal sorc "pressure"
For magDK, wings with PL heal outheal sorc "pressure"
For magNB, HoT and shield(s) outheal sorc "pressure"
For magden Shimmering and heal outheal sorc "pressure"
For magsorc Shieldstack out"heal" the sorc "pressure"
Sorc can't kill competitive meta build because theze one are tanky enough to not be pressurize by light attacks and because the sorc burst is telegraphed and easely counterable too by a dodge or a block (the burst should be counterable like that, no counterplay is stupid).
Sorc win vs builds that are really squichy (LA pressure them enough and they have low HP/resistance so they die from the burst) or VS noobs player that aren't able to pressure the sorc (aka force the sorc to shield stack) and that aren't able to proprely heal themself/block/dodge/shield.
Sorc is only able to kill off meta squichy builds and noobs.
The problem come from the sorc gameplay : You need to spend 2-3 GCD for shieldstack and you don't have pressure skills. You give to the ennemy the time to entirely recover. The sorc gameplay make sorc either a uncounterable one shot machine for kill or no kill machine, both of theze sides are unbalanced.
Next patch we go from an extreme to an other.
Sorc need pressure and rune cage should be a skill that give pressure (Strong DoT) and a good counterable stun.
Great post.1 -
Beardimus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Good sorcs will still do fine...
Yes, we will kill potatoes like we always have been able to, and just Streak away from the decent players once more. The Sorc QQ won’t end therefore, NBs will still reign supreme, and everything will be just awesome.
Cool, why don't you go play NB then if you think they'll "still reign supreme" (they don't atm, sorc does as a quick visit to any BG will tell you) after Incap nerf and Heavy Attack range is reduced from 10 to 7 meters.
I know I'll be playing my buffed up mDK next patch and getting easy kills on most of them.
Sure now Sorc have lost that 10k tooltip problem you quote 100+ times as the issue things are all good for you?
That's a big loss to burst. AND you can dodge the CC...
So now are your complaints moving into BG thus a pop at endless fury? Or what's next on the Nerf sorc list?
Blades were top for a couple of patches, you know, we all know it. And now sorcs are nerfed worse than they were in that patch. So common, ill buy you some iTunes vouchers to change the tune.
I've just lost 10k tooltip damage with no compensation!Xbox One | EU | EP
Beardimus : VR16 Dunmer MagSorc [RIP MagDW 2015-2018]
Emperor of Sotha Sil 02-2018 & Sheogorath 05-2019
1st Emperor of RavenwatchAlts - - for the Lolz
Archimus : Bosmer Thief / Archer / Werewolf
Orcimus : Fat drunk Orc battlefield 1st aider
Scalimus - Argonian Sorc Healer / Pet master
Fighting small scale with : The SAXON Guild
Fighting with [PvP] : The Undaunted Wolves
Trading Guilds : TradersOfNirn | FourSquareTraders
Xbox One | NA | EP
Bëardimus : L43 Dunmer Magsorc / BG
Heals-With-Pets : VR16 Argonian Sorc PvP / BG Healer
Nordimus : VR16 Stamsorc
Beardimus le 13iem : L30 Dunmer Magsorc Icereach1 -
Beardimus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Good sorcs will still do fine...
Yes, we will kill potatoes like we always have been able to, and just Streak away from the decent players once more. The Sorc QQ won’t end therefore, NBs will still reign supreme, and everything will be just awesome.
Cool, why don't you go play NB then if you think they'll "still reign supreme" (they don't atm, sorc does as a quick visit to any BG will tell you) after Incap nerf and Heavy Attack range is reduced from 10 to 7 meters.
I know I'll be playing my buffed up mDK next patch and getting easy kills on most of them.
Since 90+% of BGs are Deathmatch now probably it’s no wonder people are playing a Sorc, until ZOS finally changes the less than well designed scoring system at least.
Me? I’m going to play StamWarden or Stamplar next, if I PvP at all.
Problem is giving choice to those that wanted it means the rest of us picking random get shoved into DMs too
or a big queue if choose specific Xbox One | EU | EP
Beardimus : VR16 Dunmer MagSorc [RIP MagDW 2015-2018]
Emperor of Sotha Sil 02-2018 & Sheogorath 05-2019
1st Emperor of RavenwatchAlts - - for the Lolz
Archimus : Bosmer Thief / Archer / Werewolf
Orcimus : Fat drunk Orc battlefield 1st aider
Scalimus - Argonian Sorc Healer / Pet master
Fighting small scale with : The SAXON Guild
Fighting with [PvP] : The Undaunted Wolves
Trading Guilds : TradersOfNirn | FourSquareTraders
Xbox One | NA | EP
Bëardimus : L43 Dunmer Magsorc / BG
Heals-With-Pets : VR16 Argonian Sorc PvP / BG Healer
Nordimus : VR16 Stamsorc
Beardimus le 13iem : L30 Dunmer Magsorc Icereach0 -
usmguy1234✭✭✭✭✭
✭usmguy1234 wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »There is no point in reverting cage into pre-Summerset state (and that’s exactly what happened in 4.1.2). If you don’t remember, almost no one were using it then, and were running master destro + reach.
Damage component is completely useless now, since no one will sit being CCed for 5 seconds, you could have just complexly removed it.
Please, if you decided to revert the buff, why not to revert drag nerf and just remove cage from the game, reworking it into some kind of dot, maybe.
Is crap right? If they are going to remove the damage from cage then sorcs burst is trash again. They should give us some damage back to frags then.
Spot on.
And if a few K damage on one skills takes them from zero to hero as the Blade boys on this thread claim then it shows balance isn't too far off lol haha
Sorcs where wet for over two patches and the whines where still here.
But now they moaning about mages wrath, or was it overload, or negate or streak or Cage 5 second stun is the issue no its the damage no its not damage its the CC, no ita cos its broken.
Damn im confused. And bored of the whole topic
Problem is the total damage from sorc burst (not Rune Cage alone, though it does contribute to it atm)
or
that Rune Cage has no feasible counterplay.
Pick one. Personally I'd rather see them give the ability counterplay than nerfs to sorc damage.
And you've got nightblades hitting double digit snipes/merciless/incaps on people on a regular basis. I've got a really good almost golded out sorc build and the most I've hit with a frag after the empower change is 12k. Yet sorcs need to be balanced.
Yes, there are skills that individually hit higher than anything in sorc arsenal (except maybe Empowered Overload LAs which I've seen do 30k+ dmg), but that's just it: they're close to the only source of burst that lands during the period.
When you compare the total burst though... this is from page 2 of this thread:DDuke wrote:Using same setup on both characters.
Gear: 5/1/1 2x Engine Guardian 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery
Sorc buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, Ancient Knowledge passive, Empower for Light Attack (from Meteor), Altmer passive +4% to Shooting Star & Light Attack & Shock Glyph, +5% (Energized passive) to Shock Glyph, +10% to Frag proc
NB buffs: Major Sorcery, Wpn Dmg Enchant, +20% to Merciless & Light Attack (Incap buff), Minor Berserk, Altmer passive +4% to Light Attack
So let's compare.
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0 (for the sake of the argument)
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
54 300 tooltip burst
and NB:
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
49 524 tooltip burst
Now let's assume everything crits (NB has 60% crit modifier, Sorc 50%):
54 300+50%=81 450
49 524+60%=79 238
Without Cage damage, without Fury & lands faster (i.e. over 1GCD rather than over 2 like the NB one) than the magblade burst that is considered one of the highest bursts in game.
Nothing wrong with that of course, not when it can be avoided (as I wrote on the post you replied to).
Your calculation only has 2 skills for the nightblade vs 3 from the sorc... add in swallow and you're at the sorc damage maybe more if you consider the 8% extra mag from siphoning. Also, I'd take merciless any day over the neutered frags that us sorcs have.
Yes, it has only 2 skills for the nightblade because guess what, that's all the burst you have on a NB - the class has no delayed damage that could land within the same GCD (and literally all their damage is dodgeable btw).No pets in open world. Come on, man.
Implosion is a waste, except against tanky builds. And even then, the chance is so low, it really is a lucky shot. Implosion is for PvE or stamsorcs.
But your ulti paragraph is interesting. Basically, you admitted that Incap is cheaper and better than the best ultimate sorcs have.
Doesn't matter. Sorcs get nerfed to below-DB-strength. Do you think your time spent here was worth it? Was it really that bad having a real contender for best PvP class for three months? Instead of creating an exciting new build, now you're stuck with your old build for at least another three months, as are sorcs. Is that the desired outcome here? Nerfs instead of innovation and progress?
Oh, so now pets don't count either because they dont fit your argument? Ok then, let's see how the burst compares with one Crippling Grasp tick (which is all that can land within the same GCD) & one hit from Shadow Image. But since we're talking about damage that can be dodged before the burst, we'll now add Fury to the sorc rotation as well to land within same GCD (unless you'll now tell me sorcs don't use their execute either?).
Shooting Star 14 323+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=16 041
Light Attack 3565+(40%[Empower]+4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=5418
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0 (for the sake of the argument)
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10 574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
Fury 10 882+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+4%[Altmer Passive]+5%[Energized])=12 731
67 031 tooltip burst (lands within 1 GCD)
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=4278
Incap 12 890+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=14 952
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4991
Crippling Grasp 3476+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=4727
Shadow Image 1839+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=2501
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk])=3040
Merciless 16 370+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+8%[Minor Berserk]+20%[Incap])=22 263
56 752 tooltip burst
and after crits:
67 031+50%=100 546
56 752+60%=90 803
...and this is assuming Rune Cage is still used - it won't, likely replaced by Reach which adds another:
(4750+2000[Master Destro])+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=7560 (11 340 crit) to the sorc burst
Good sorcs will still do fine... but I do understand why the bad ones feel like complaining about their loss of "I-Win" button.
Game taking some actual skill to play can't be a beneficial prospect for these players.
I think you are intelligent enough to realize the constrains between theoretical and real world applications. All that burst means squat if you can't land it or even attempt to land it. Sorc may have had an edge on magnb during summerset because Zos can't code and rune was hitting nightblades after they cloak.... but that's it. Now with the rc changes sorc has no way to control a fight against roll builds... the ones most capable of bursting us down in a millisecond. Yet magnb retains crippling grasp which is a very nice skill to control fights against roll builds.Zaghigoth- Orc Stamplar
Soul Razor- Altmer Magsorc
Les Drago- Redguard Stamdk
Eirius- Altmer Magdk
Stormifeth- Altmer Magplar
Disclaimer: My comments are a little sarcasm mixed with truth. If you can't handle that don't respond to me.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Good sorcs will still do fine...
Yes, we will kill potatoes like we always have been able to, and just Streak away from the decent players once more. The Sorc QQ won’t end therefore, NBs will still reign supreme, and everything will be just awesome.
Cool, why don't you go play NB then if you think they'll "still reign supreme" (they don't atm, sorc does as a quick visit to any BG will tell you) after Incap nerf and Heavy Attack range is reduced from 10 to 7 meters.
I know I'll be playing my buffed up mDK next patch and getting easy kills on most of them.
Sure now Sorc have lost that 10k tooltip problem you quote 100+ times as the issue things are all good for you?
That's a big loss to burst. AND you can dodge the CC...
So now are your complaints moving into BG thus a pop at endless fury? Or what's next on the Nerf sorc list?
Blades were top for a couple of patches, you know, we all know it. And now sorcs are nerfed worse than they were in that patch. So common, ill buy you some iTunes vouchers to change the tune.
I've just lost 10k tooltip damage with no compensation!
You've lost barely no damage at all if you swap to Reach. What you've lost is an undodgeable I-Win button that guaranteed more burst lands than non-tank builds can handle.
And as I've mentioned I do think they overnerfed Cage - since it's dodgeable there's no reason why it shouldn't deal damage as well. Oh well, they're gonna rework the ability anyway in Update 20 so enjoy Reach until then.
And no, Sorcs are not "worse than they were before Summerset". On what do you base that assumption? Summerset buffed sorcs in a lot more ways than just Rune Cage (2H changes, Persistence passive buff etc).1 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes I did, in an entirely different context. Try to keep up.
Sigh, here we go again. You are the one who brought up 1vX as some pathetic attempt to portray mSorcs as some OP monster wrecking everyone (prior to summerset). I just used ur logic and brought up the top 5 clips featuring one medium build after the other even tho u said it sucks (to which i actually agreed) to show you that 1vX videos are not really a measure of which class is actually overperforming. To which you replied again with another pathetic attempt that kodi wouldnt do this or that cause its not enjoyable content or whatever even tho there was evidence of the exact opposite. And i explained that he wouldnt fill the video with sorc clips because simply they are not impressive meaning the vast majority of them is just potato smashing. Now if ur measurement of balance is potato smashing then sure, sorcs were always monsters. But then again, if potato smashing is ur measurement of balance, then ur logic is flawed to begin with.
I never attempted to portray mSorcs as some weak underdog class. I just explained where the term sub par comes from, when people use it to describe sorcs prior to summerset. mSorcs being a bad class and talking about rune cage even tho it wasnt even the topic are just nonsense you keep trying to put in my mouth just to prove ur point.
More nonsense and putting words in my mouth just to make a point. Nothing new here.Cool, are you going to repeat for the 27th time your opinions about how "weak" the class with the highest burst & some of the best defensive tools in the entire game was before summerset?
When people complain about sorc burst, they are correct based on math. It's not an opinion, it's numbers - unless sorcs are so "weak" that even the laws of mathematics want nothing to do with them.
Sorc is supposed to be the burst class. It should have higher burst than the rest of the classes. It should hurt when u get hit by a sorc burst because if they cant kill you with that they aint going to kill you ever. Sorc burst prior to summerset wasnt high. It was enough mostly against normal medium armor builds, on top of actually having a million different counters. Complaining about that is not correct. If the burst class cant even burst the squishy builds when they manage to land the most telegraphed combo in the game, then what the hell would be the purpose of playing that class at all? To just shieldstack people to death?
And telling people that they are not smart is not attacking their persona?Also there's a difference between a false statement and a fallacy (which an ad hominem is). A logical fallacy is a flaw in reasoning - i.e. you are attacking my persona & not my argument - two completely uncorrelated subjects.
Or telling people they are bad and they just want free kills even after they specifically stated numerous times that they consider rune cage broken?
Or telling someone who disagreed with ur build as being viable that he is just bad?
Its almost as if telling people that they are bad is a cold hard fact according to you and not actually a personal attack. I mean we can keep going back and forth on the topic. Kinda boring tho. Can we go back on the insults? They were more fun.
Yes, that's pretty much what theorycrafting is, using numbers in the game and trying to figure out the optimal combination of variables. Where you are wrong though is that the game would "create" these formulas or builds - that part is on the players.
Oh really? And i thought it was also about the actual theory behind the build. You know, the line of thinking behind the build, rotations, choices etc. Especially when we are talking about non meta. You know, when i look at ur mDK build, i dont give a crap about the math behind choosing BSW. Anyone can do that. You know whats actual theorycraft? Taking a skill (chains) that everyone regarded as a dead skill and proving to people that its good. Taking an entire class everyone viewed as a tank and showing that it can be played otherwise. Thats theorycrafting, not math. Thats what leads back to you. Not the math you did.
No, im not wrong. The formulas are not on the players. They are on the devs. They created the formulas and how dmg, mitigation or sustain is calculated. You just take those formulas and put the numbers on them. Thats not necessarily theorycrafting. Thats just simple math. And yes when it comes to ur bow build its the game that made it for you. Nothing against ur build or the effort you put into it, but you just literally put on a bow that told you what to do and you did it in the most lazy way. A freaking gank. You know what would be impressive theorycrafting? Putting that on a stamden for example and try to incorporate the snipe burst into ur rotation, timing it with sub assault or whatever for insane burst. Thats theorycrafting. Jack Daniel's entire channel is an example of non meta theorycrafting. Even when his builds do not seem to perform good, they are still impressive just because of how outside of the box he thinks creating unique rotations etc. You could tweak the numbers of his builds as much as you want, but the builds will always bear his mark. Thats theorycrafting.Lmao.
Imagine if some random nobody with no idea what he was talking about started debating the intricacies of road construction with you, Mr. civil engineer, and then started raging at you when you explained why he was wrong.
And you missed the point entirely so lmao indeed. For starters, ur analogy is unlucky to say the least. The difference between the qualifications you need to be able to talk about the two topics is like day and night. Are you seriously so naive to compare simple math equations with a subject such as road construction and even go as far as calling me a random nobody who has no idea what he is talking about because i had the audacity to disagree with you on how hard some simple math equations are?
But anw, thats not even the point. The point was that i did not dispute ur argument about being good at math. I disputed the basis of that argument. A better analogy would be like me bragging about being an engineer and the basis of that argument being that i know the ingredients of concrete. If i were to do that then you may as well call me an idiot because i would be. It doesnt take an engineer to know that. You can just google it.
1 -
bardx86✭✭✭✭✭
✭
"Nothing against ur build or the effort you put into it, but you just literally put on a bow that told you what to do and you did it in the most lazy way. A freaking gank."Yes I did, in an entirely different context. Try to keep up.
Sigh, here we go again. You are the one who brought up 1vX as some pathetic attempt to portray mSorcs as some OP monster wrecking everyone (prior to summerset). I just used ur logic and brought up the top 5 clips featuring one medium build after the other even tho u said it sucks (to which i actually agreed) to show you that 1vX videos are not really a measure of which class is actually overperforming. To which you replied again with another pathetic attempt that kodi wouldnt do this or that cause its not enjoyable content or whatever even tho there was evidence of the exact opposite. And i explained that he wouldnt fill the video with sorc clips because simply they are not impressive meaning the vast majority of them is just potato smashing. Now if ur measurement of balance is potato smashing then sure, sorcs were always monsters. But then again, if potato smashing is ur measurement of balance, then ur logic is flawed to begin with.
I never attempted to portray mSorcs as some weak underdog class. I just explained where the term sub par comes from, when people use it to describe sorcs prior to summerset. mSorcs being a bad class and talking about rune cage even tho it wasnt even the topic are just nonsense you keep trying to put in my mouth just to prove ur point.
More nonsense and putting words in my mouth just to make a point. Nothing new here.Cool, are you going to repeat for the 27th time your opinions about how "weak" the class with the highest burst & some of the best defensive tools in the entire game was before summerset?
When people complain about sorc burst, they are correct based on math. It's not an opinion, it's numbers - unless sorcs are so "weak" that even the laws of mathematics want nothing to do with them.
Sorc is supposed to be the burst class. It should have higher burst than the rest of the classes. It should hurt when u get hit by a sorc burst because if they cant kill you with that they aint going to kill you ever. Sorc burst prior to summerset wasnt high. It was enough mostly against normal medium armor builds, on top of actually having a million different counters. Complaining about that is not correct. If the burst class cant even burst the squishy builds when they manage to land the most telegraphed combo in the game, then what the hell would be the purpose of playing that class at all? To just shieldstack people to death?
And telling people that they are not smart is not attacking their persona?Also there's a difference between a false statement and a fallacy (which an ad hominem is). A logical fallacy is a flaw in reasoning - i.e. you are attacking my persona & not my argument - two completely uncorrelated subjects.
Or telling people they are bad and they just want free kills even after they specifically stated numerous times that they consider rune cage broken?
Or telling someone who disagreed with ur build as being viable that he is just bad?
Its almost as if telling people that they are bad is a cold hard fact according to you and not actually a personal attack. I mean we can keep going back and forth on the topic. Kinda boring tho. Can we go back on the insults? They were more fun.
Yes, that's pretty much what theorycrafting is, using numbers in the game and trying to figure out the optimal combination of variables. Where you are wrong though is that the game would "create" these formulas or builds - that part is on the players.
Oh really? And i thought it was also about the actual theory behind the build. You know, the line of thinking behind the build, rotations, choices etc. Especially when we are talking about non meta. You know, when i look at ur mDK build, i dont give a crap about the math behind choosing BSW. Anyone can do that. You know whats actual theorycraft? Taking a skill (chains) that everyone regarded as a dead skill and proving to people that its good. Taking an entire class everyone viewed as a tank and showing that it can be played otherwise. Thats theorycrafting, not math. Thats what leads back to you. Not the math you did.
No, im not wrong. The formulas are not on the players. They are on the devs. They created the formulas and how dmg, mitigation or sustain is calculated. You just take those formulas and put the numbers on them. Thats not necessarily theorycrafting. Thats just simple math. And yes when it comes to ur bow build its the game that made it for you. Nothing against ur build or the effort you put into it, but you just literally put on a bow that told you what to do and you did it in the most lazy way. A freaking gank. You know what would be impressive theorycrafting? Putting that on a stamden for example and try to incorporate the snipe burst into ur rotation, timing it with sub assault or whatever for insane burst. Thats theorycrafting. Jack Daniel's entire channel is an example of non meta theorycrafting. Even when his builds do not seem to perform good, they are still impressive just because of how outside of the box he thinks creating unique rotations etc. You could tweak the numbers of his builds as much as you want, but the builds will always bear his mark. Thats theorycrafting.Lmao.
Imagine if some random nobody with no idea what he was talking about started debating the intricacies of road construction with you, Mr. civil engineer, and then started raging at you when you explained why he was wrong.
And you missed the point entirely so lmao indeed. For starters, ur analogy is unlucky to say the least. The difference between the qualifications you need to be able to talk about the two topics is like day and night. Are you seriously so naive to compare simple math equations with a subject such as road construction and even go as far as calling me a random nobody who has no idea what he is talking about because i had the audacity to disagree with you on how hard some simple math equations are?
But anw, thats not even the point. The point was that i did not dispute ur argument about being good at math. I disputed the basis of that argument. A better analogy would be like me bragging about being an engineer and the basis of that argument being that i know the ingredients of concrete. If i were to do that then you may as well call me an idiot because i would be. It doesnt take an engineer to know that. You can just google it.
Bravo, Lol1