4.1.2 Rune cage change is a joke.

DDuke

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Yes I did, in an entirely different context. Try to keep up.

Sigh, here we go again. You are the one who brought up 1vX as some pathetic attempt to portray mSorcs as some OP monster wrecking everyone (prior to summerset). I just used ur logic and brought up the top 5 clips featuring one medium build after the other even tho u said it sucks (to which i actually agreed) to show you that 1vX videos are not really a measure of which class is actually overperforming. To which you replied again with another pathetic attempt that kodi wouldnt do this or that cause its not enjoyable content or whatever even tho there was evidence of the exact opposite. And i explained that he wouldnt fill the video with sorc clips because simply they are not impressive meaning the vast majority of them is just potato smashing. Now if ur measurement of balance is potato smashing then sure, sorcs were always monsters. But then again, if potato smashing is ur measurement of balance, then ur logic is flawed to begin with.

How so? If someone is able to kill multiple people alone with less effort than other classes (and without using AoE abilities mind you) then I'd say there's a balance issue.

You don't think "potato smashing" (I'd be very curious how "being a potato" is determined, but let's not derail this any further than it already has been) should factor in at all when it comes to balance?

What should then, duels? Group vs group? As far as I'm aware mSorc has never been mediocre in any of those scenarios.


In my opinion all facets of the game should be considered.

Also hold on... you yourself admit sorcs have been ridiculously strong even prior to Summerset:

Also, key word is back in the day. Back in the day we didnt have tanks everywhere either and you didnt need ults to kill people. Back in the day sorcs were tanking zergs with one hand scratching their ****, shields lasted a million years, and they were actually one shotting people with or without ult. Not just because of rune cage. But we dont live in 2015 or 2016 anymore.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5328818/#Comment_5328818

pieratsos wrote: »

I never attempted to portray mSorcs as some weak underdog class. I just explained where the term sub par comes from, when people use it to describe sorcs prior to summerset. mSorcs being a bad class and talking about rune cage even tho it wasnt even the topic are just nonsense you keep trying to put in my mouth just to prove ur point.

DDuke wrote: »

Cool, are you going to repeat for the 27th time your opinions about how "weak" the class with the highest burst & some of the best defensive tools in the entire game was before summerset?

More nonsense and putting words in my mouth just to make a point. Nothing new here.

Am I?

pieratsos wrote:

Go and watch the entire series of legend tournaments before summerset without cheesy crap. Msorc was competing with magplar for worst class. And thats because magplar had inadequate representation.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5361925/#Comment_5361925

pieratsos wrote:

Come on now, i think its common knowledge that sorcs before summerset were mostly relevant because they are good at killing potatoes. No sustained dmg, meh burst, crutching on master destro to cc and spammable. Before summerset i never even felt threatened by a sorc. All you needed was 25k+ hp and half a working braincell to survive against a normal sorc.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5362113/#Comment_5362113


Case closed.

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

When people complain about sorc burst, they are correct based on math. It's not an opinion, it's numbers - unless sorcs are so "weak" that even the laws of mathematics want nothing to do with them.

Sorc is supposed to be the burst class. It should have higher burst than the rest of the classes. It should hurt when u get hit by a sorc burst because if they cant kill you with that they aint going to kill you ever. Sorc burst prior to summerset wasnt high. It was enough mostly against normal medium armor builds, on top of actually having a million different counters. Complaining about that is not correct. If the burst class cant even burst the squishy builds when they manage to land the most telegraphed combo in the game, then what the hell would be the purpose of playing that class at all? To just shieldstack people to death?

Sorc burst prior to Summerset was still the highest in the game. Do I need to bring up the numbers again?

If you couldn't burst people, that's on you and you alone, because no mathematical metric backs you on your assertion that sorcs couldn't burst even squishy builds and I have video evidence to the contrary as well.

So yes, according to the metrics out there complaining about sorc burst is correct, though I only agree with those complaints when no counterplay exists to said burst.


Also I do hope you realize you're again painting sorc as some weak underdog class pre-Summerset with statements like:
"If the burst class cant even burst the squishy builds when they manage to land the most telegraphed combo in the game, then what the hell would be the purpose of playing that class at all? To just shieldstack people to death?"


...in case you weren't aware how your words are being perceived.

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Also there's a difference between a false statement and a fallacy (which an ad hominem is). A logical fallacy is a flaw in reasoning - i.e. you are attacking my persona & not my argument - two completely uncorrelated subjects.

And telling people that they are not smart is not attacking their persona?
Or telling people they are bad and they just want free kills even after they specifically stated numerous times that they consider rune cage broken?
Or telling someone who disagreed with ur build as being viable that he is just bad?

Its almost as if telling people that they are bad is a cold hard fact according to you and not actually a personal attack. I mean we can keep going back and forth on the topic. Kinda boring tho. Can we go back on the insults? They were more fun.

How good someone is in the game can skew perception regarding game balance, so I believe that is relevant to the discussion. Someone having a big ego (i.e. high self esteem) isn't.


...also I am not calling people "not smart" (there's actually a smarter word for that...), but you've done that multiple times in this thread and others:

pieratsos wrote:

This is getting really boring. At this point i legitimately believe that you are incredibly stupid. Cause only someone incredibly stupid would do that.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5339934/#Comment_5339934

pieratsos wrote:

Also nice attempt with that list of dumb comments to make ur point. Now u can actually go back to the forums since rune cage became a monster and see the Constructive comments from people who actually know what they are talking about. And then feel free to ask urself why they are all arguing with you if they don't like cage either. Maybe ull realize how stupid some of ur comments are.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5329885/#Comment_5329885

pieratsos wrote:

3. Dodge roll every 1-2 seconds the entire time. Just when you think that you couldnt get more stupid.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5338397/#Comment_5338397

pieratsos wrote:

And shields are not impacted at all by CP that increases crit damage or penetration, two of the main CP sinks for damage outside of Master-At-Arms and Mighty/Elemental Expert.

Wait wait wait. Did you actually insinuate that shields having no resistances is good for them because opponents have waisted points in penetration CP? Can you even comprehend the stupidity of that comment?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5360378#Comment_5360378

pieratsos wrote:

The stacking at keeps is a combination of the following:
- Current tick mechanics
- current siege mechanics
- radius part of camps
- lack of strong groups who can confidently seperate from the frontline and go it alone successfully. (I'm not talking about the flip back line and leave immediately groups)
- server performance and population

Removing camps would just increase the other problems because people would play much safer just stacking/attacking in keeps with greater numbers even more to attempt to prevent deaths

Are you seriously telling me that clueless people just rush through oils and catapults and melt because they have the safety of the camp and not because they are just dumb? Seriously?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5354605/#Comment_5354605

pieratsos wrote:

Anyway, your attempt to teach me is so cute, appreciate that

Ok i wont, feel free to make a fool of urself a little more with ur lack of knowledge of basic game mechanics. No issue with me.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5349800/#Comment_5349800

pieratsos wrote:

Well You're like always missing the main point of discussion which is competitve and fair gameplay without favouring brainless playstyles which many people wants but You dont. Also in your head You have vision that shieldbreaker spammer will post a message to that magsorc he want to attack that he's going to LA spam and he have shieldbreaker.

In reality what will happen is shieldbreaker LA spammer will start spamming light attacks from hide stunning opponent at opening which will cause atleast 3 light attack and 1 oblivion dmg enchant to proc which means before magsorc even start fight he is already around half of his health. So when fight starts it's 20+ k health for shieldbreaker spammer vs 10-15k health for magsorc so 3,5k DPS (adding oblivion dmg enchant it's possible with Sload it's even more) is pretty much enough to take magsorc down before he'll apply his full combo. From the moment magsorc breakes free to the moment his full dmg combo is exploding it'll take 6+ seconds since after break free he'll have to localize the enemy 1st apply defenses like ehaling ward etc and then start applying his combo which takes like 4 seconds atleast. Since fight barely started and sorc is already low on health he needs to choose either go in full defense mode which will cause no dmg to enemy while burning down resources or risk and try to nuke enemy but when it'll fail that will mean death. If sorc decide to go with the burst combo all what shieldbreaker user needs to do is poping immovability pot and block for a split of second to reduce sorc burst combo potential to the point it wont be even half of the dmg You suggested it can be. You can say "well then just blink away" but when blink have 15 meters and bow LA 36+ meters it's not that simple especially if shieldbreaker user can apply some slows. Blink is not sulution for everything.

Of course magsorc have chance to deal with that type of build under certain circumstances like weak experience of opponent , ready to use resto ult , dark deal slotted , tristat potion used in proper moment and basicly outplaying and outstarting the opponent. The problem is that magsorc needs to be much more experienced player then shieldbreaker spammer to even have a chance of winning this. Now if there will be 2 shieldbreaker users agaisnt 1 magsorc they can be really average players to take that 1 sorc down with ease just by mashing 1 button. If we'll compare amount of things magsorc needs to do to survive or even win this fight against pure light attack spam then it's quite obvious this fight is far from fair or competitive and skill is secondary variable.

To actually understand everything you just wrote someone would have to be at least familiar with game mechanics. Unfortunately some people are just simply clueless.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5345743/#Comment_5345743

pieratsos wrote:

I have shown you a video of a sorc killing his target in one second.

A duel to prove it can be done in seven is thus completely pointless.

You are not really familiar with the terms DPS and burst dmg are you?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5344764/#Comment_5344764

...I'm actually having a harder time finding posts where you don't insult people. How forum moderators still allow someone that toxic around is beyond me.

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Yes, that's pretty much what theorycrafting is, using numbers in the game and trying to figure out the optimal combination of variables. Where you are wrong though is that the game would "create" these formulas or builds - that part is on the players.

Oh really? And i thought it was also about the actual theory behind the build. You know, the line of thinking behind the build, rotations, choices etc. Especially when we are talking about non meta. You know, when i look at ur mDK build, i dont give a crap about the math behind choosing BSW. Anyone can do that. You know whats actual theorycraft? Taking a skill (chains) that everyone regarded as a dead skill and proving to people that its good. Taking an entire class everyone viewed as a tank and showing that it can be played otherwise. Thats theorycrafting, not math. Thats what leads back to you. Not the math you did.

Yes really. How do you imagine people figured out that skills like Chains are actually good? Or that Asylum Bow would be best option for stamina ranged burst? Math.

pieratsos wrote: »

No, im not wrong. The formulas are not on the players. They are on the devs. They created the formulas and how dmg, mitigation or sustain is calculated. You just take those formulas and put the numbers on them. Thats not necessarily theorycrafting. Thats just simple math. And yes when it comes to ur bow build its the game that made it for you. Nothing against ur build or the effort you put into it, but you just literally put on a bow that told you what to do and you did it in the most lazy way. A freaking gank. You know what would be impressive theorycrafting? Putting that on a stamden for example and try to incorporate the snipe burst into ur rotation, timing it with sub assault or whatever for insane burst. Thats theorycrafting. Jack Daniel's entire channel is an example of non meta theorycrafting. Even when his builds do not seem to perform good, they are still impressive just because of how outside of the box he thinks creating unique rotations etc. You could tweak the numbers of his builds as much as you want, but the builds will always bear his mark. Thats theorycrafting.

So in other words theorycrafting is making builds that you "approve" of, and rest is just "game making builds for people"? Smh.

Yes, I could use Asylum Bow on a Warden but it wouldn't be as efficient since warden lacks kiting tools and Sub Assault isn't necessary to get kills. Why? Because I've done the math and I actually tested prototypes of bow warden (along with bow sorc & bow DK). In theory the burst is there, but in practice you don't get to land it frequently enough when solo (in groups these setups actually work).

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lmao.

Imagine if some random nobody with no idea what he was talking about started debating the intricacies of road construction with you, Mr. civil engineer, and then started raging at you when you explained why he was wrong.

And you missed the point entirely so lmao indeed. For starters, ur analogy is unlucky to say the least. The difference between the qualifications you need to be able to talk about the two topics is like day and night. Are you seriously so naive to compare simple math equations with a subject such as road construction and even go as far as calling me a random nobody who has no idea what he is talking about because i had the audacity to disagree with you on how hard some simple math equations are?

But anw, thats not even the point. The point was that i did not dispute ur argument about being good at math. I disputed the basis of that argument. A better analogy would be like me bragging about being an engineer and the basis of that argument being that i know the ingredients of concrete. If i were to do that then you may as well call me an idiot because i would be. It doesnt take an engineer to know that. You can just google it.

Yeah, so imagine if someone kept claiming that the ingredients to concrete were gummy bears and lemonade and wouldn't believe you when you told him that wasn't the case and mentioned you have more expertise on the subject.

The analogy is not off at all, unfortunately.

pieratsos

bardx86 wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Yes I did, in an entirely different context. Try to keep up.

Sigh, here we go again. You are the one who brought up 1vX as some pathetic attempt to portray mSorcs as some OP monster wrecking everyone (prior to summerset). I just used ur logic and brought up the top 5 clips featuring one medium build after the other even tho u said it sucks (to which i actually agreed) to show you that 1vX videos are not really a measure of which class is actually overperforming. To which you replied again with another pathetic attempt that kodi wouldnt do this or that cause its not enjoyable content or whatever even tho there was evidence of the exact opposite. And i explained that he wouldnt fill the video with sorc clips because simply they are not impressive meaning the vast majority of them is just potato smashing. Now if ur measurement of balance is potato smashing then sure, sorcs were always monsters. But then again, if potato smashing is ur measurement of balance, then ur logic is flawed to begin with.

I never attempted to portray mSorcs as some weak underdog class. I just explained where the term sub par comes from, when people use it to describe sorcs prior to summerset. mSorcs being a bad class and talking about rune cage even tho it wasnt even the topic are just nonsense you keep trying to put in my mouth just to prove ur point.

DDuke wrote: »

Cool, are you going to repeat for the 27th time your opinions about how "weak" the class with the highest burst & some of the best defensive tools in the entire game was before summerset?

More nonsense and putting words in my mouth just to make a point. Nothing new here.

DDuke wrote: »

When people complain about sorc burst, they are correct based on math. It's not an opinion, it's numbers - unless sorcs are so "weak" that even the laws of mathematics want nothing to do with them.

Sorc is supposed to be the burst class. It should have higher burst than the rest of the classes. It should hurt when u get hit by a sorc burst because if they cant kill you with that they aint going to kill you ever. Sorc burst prior to summerset wasnt high. It was enough mostly against normal medium armor builds, on top of actually having a million different counters. Complaining about that is not correct. If the burst class cant even burst the squishy builds when they manage to land the most telegraphed combo in the game, then what the hell would be the purpose of playing that class at all? To just shieldstack people to death?

DDuke wrote: »

Also there's a difference between a false statement and a fallacy (which an ad hominem is). A logical fallacy is a flaw in reasoning - i.e. you are attacking my persona & not my argument - two completely uncorrelated subjects.

And telling people that they are not smart is not attacking their persona?
Or telling people they are bad and they just want free kills even after they specifically stated numerous times that they consider rune cage broken?
Or telling someone who disagreed with ur build as being viable that he is just bad?

Its almost as if telling people that they are bad is a cold hard fact according to you and not actually a personal attack. I mean we can keep going back and forth on the topic. Kinda boring tho. Can we go back on the insults? They were more fun.

DDuke wrote: »

Yes, that's pretty much what theorycrafting is, using numbers in the game and trying to figure out the optimal combination of variables. Where you are wrong though is that the game would "create" these formulas or builds - that part is on the players.

Oh really? And i thought it was also about the actual theory behind the build. You know, the line of thinking behind the build, rotations, choices etc. Especially when we are talking about non meta. You know, when i look at ur mDK build, i dont give a crap about the math behind choosing BSW. Anyone can do that. You know whats actual theorycraft? Taking a skill (chains) that everyone regarded as a dead skill and proving to people that its good. Taking an entire class everyone viewed as a tank and showing that it can be played otherwise. Thats theorycrafting, not math. Thats what leads back to you. Not the math you did.

No, im not wrong. The formulas are not on the players. They are on the devs. They created the formulas and how dmg, mitigation or sustain is calculated. You just take those formulas and put the numbers on them. Thats not necessarily theorycrafting. Thats just simple math. And yes when it comes to ur bow build its the game that made it for you. Nothing against ur build or the effort you put into it, but you just literally put on a bow that told you what to do and you did it in the most lazy way. A freaking gank. You know what would be impressive theorycrafting? Putting that on a stamden for example and try to incorporate the snipe burst into ur rotation, timing it with sub assault or whatever for insane burst. Thats theorycrafting. Jack Daniel's entire channel is an example of non meta theorycrafting. Even when his builds do not seem to perform good, they are still impressive just because of how outside of the box he thinks creating unique rotations etc. You could tweak the numbers of his builds as much as you want, but the builds will always bear his mark. Thats theorycrafting.

DDuke wrote: »

Lmao.

Imagine if some random nobody with no idea what he was talking about started debating the intricacies of road construction with you, Mr. civil engineer, and then started raging at you when you explained why he was wrong.

And you missed the point entirely so lmao indeed. For starters, ur analogy is unlucky to say the least. The difference between the qualifications you need to be able to talk about the two topics is like day and night. Are you seriously so naive to compare simple math equations with a subject such as road construction and even go as far as calling me a random nobody who has no idea what he is talking about because i had the audacity to disagree with you on how hard some simple math equations are?

But anw, thats not even the point. The point was that i did not dispute ur argument about being good at math. I disputed the basis of that argument. A better analogy would be like me bragging about being an engineer and the basis of that argument being that i know the ingredients of concrete. If i were to do that then you may as well call me an idiot because i would be. It doesnt take an engineer to know that. You can just google it.

"Nothing against ur build or the effort you put into it, but you just literally put on a bow that told you what to do and you did it in the most lazy way. A freaking gank."

Bravo, Lol

Yes i have no issues with the build and i understand the effort he put into it. Its his work kudos to him. However it is what is. What exactly did you not understand? Or are we somehow not allowed to judge other people's builds now?

usmguy1234

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Yes I did, in an entirely different context. Try to keep up.

Sigh, here we go again. You are the one who brought up 1vX as some pathetic attempt to portray mSorcs as some OP monster wrecking everyone (prior to summerset). I just used ur logic and brought up the top 5 clips featuring one medium build after the other even tho u said it sucks (to which i actually agreed) to show you that 1vX videos are not really a measure of which class is actually overperforming. To which you replied again with another pathetic attempt that kodi wouldnt do this or that cause its not enjoyable content or whatever even tho there was evidence of the exact opposite. And i explained that he wouldnt fill the video with sorc clips because simply they are not impressive meaning the vast majority of them is just potato smashing. Now if ur measurement of balance is potato smashing then sure, sorcs were always monsters. But then again, if potato smashing is ur measurement of balance, then ur logic is flawed to begin with.

How so? If someone is able to kill multiple people alone with less effort than other classes (and without using AoE abilities mind you) then I'd say there's a balance issue.

You don't think "potato smashing" (I'd be very curious how "being a potato" is determined, but let's not derail this any further than it already has been) should factor in at all when it comes to balance?

What should then, duels? Group vs group? As far as I'm aware mSorc has never been mediocre in any of those scenarios.


In my opinion all facets of the game should be considered.

Also hold on... you yourself admit sorcs have been ridiculously strong even prior to Summerset:

Also, key word is back in the day. Back in the day we didnt have tanks everywhere either and you didnt need ults to kill people. Back in the day sorcs were tanking zergs with one hand scratching their ****, shields lasted a million years, and they were actually one shotting people with or without ult. Not just because of rune cage. But we dont live in 2015 or 2016 anymore.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5328818/#Comment_5328818

pieratsos wrote: »

I never attempted to portray mSorcs as some weak underdog class. I just explained where the term sub par comes from, when people use it to describe sorcs prior to summerset. mSorcs being a bad class and talking about rune cage even tho it wasnt even the topic are just nonsense you keep trying to put in my mouth just to prove ur point.

DDuke wrote: »

Cool, are you going to repeat for the 27th time your opinions about how "weak" the class with the highest burst & some of the best defensive tools in the entire game was before summerset?

More nonsense and putting words in my mouth just to make a point. Nothing new here.

Am I?

pieratsos wrote:

Go and watch the entire series of legend tournaments before summerset without cheesy crap. Msorc was competing with magplar for worst class. And thats because magplar had inadequate representation.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5361925/#Comment_5361925

pieratsos wrote:

Come on now, i think its common knowledge that sorcs before summerset were mostly relevant because they are good at killing potatoes. No sustained dmg, meh burst, crutching on master destro to cc and spammable. Before summerset i never even felt threatened by a sorc. All you needed was 25k+ hp and half a working braincell to survive against a normal sorc.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5362113/#Comment_5362113


Case closed.

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

When people complain about sorc burst, they are correct based on math. It's not an opinion, it's numbers - unless sorcs are so "weak" that even the laws of mathematics want nothing to do with them.

Sorc is supposed to be the burst class. It should have higher burst than the rest of the classes. It should hurt when u get hit by a sorc burst because if they cant kill you with that they aint going to kill you ever. Sorc burst prior to summerset wasnt high. It was enough mostly against normal medium armor builds, on top of actually having a million different counters. Complaining about that is not correct. If the burst class cant even burst the squishy builds when they manage to land the most telegraphed combo in the game, then what the hell would be the purpose of playing that class at all? To just shieldstack people to death?

Sorc burst prior to Summerset was still the highest in the game. Do I need to bring up the numbers again?

If you couldn't burst people, that's on you and you alone, because no mathematical metric backs you on your assertion that sorcs couldn't burst even squishy builds and I have video evidence to the contrary as well.

So yes, according to the metrics out there complaining about sorc burst is correct, though I only agree with those complaints when no counterplay exists to said burst.


Also I do hope you realize you're again painting sorc as some weak underdog class pre-Summerset with statements like:
"If the burst class cant even burst the squishy builds when they manage to land the most telegraphed combo in the game, then what the hell would be the purpose of playing that class at all? To just shieldstack people to death?"


...in case you weren't aware how your words are being perceived.

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Also there's a difference between a false statement and a fallacy (which an ad hominem is). A logical fallacy is a flaw in reasoning - i.e. you are attacking my persona & not my argument - two completely uncorrelated subjects.

And telling people that they are not smart is not attacking their persona?
Or telling people they are bad and they just want free kills even after they specifically stated numerous times that they consider rune cage broken?
Or telling someone who disagreed with ur build as being viable that he is just bad?

Its almost as if telling people that they are bad is a cold hard fact according to you and not actually a personal attack. I mean we can keep going back and forth on the topic. Kinda boring tho. Can we go back on the insults? They were more fun.

How good someone is in the game can skew perception regarding game balance, so I believe that is relevant to the discussion. Someone having a big ego (i.e. high self esteem) isn't.


...also I am not calling people "not smart" (there's actually a smarter word for that...), but you've done that multiple times in this thread and others:

pieratsos wrote:

This is getting really boring. At this point i legitimately believe that you are incredibly stupid. Cause only someone incredibly stupid would do that.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5339934/#Comment_5339934

pieratsos wrote:

Also nice attempt with that list of dumb comments to make ur point. Now u can actually go back to the forums since rune cage became a monster and see the Constructive comments from people who actually know what they are talking about. And then feel free to ask urself why they are all arguing with you if they don't like cage either. Maybe ull realize how stupid some of ur comments are.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5329885/#Comment_5329885

pieratsos wrote:

3. Dodge roll every 1-2 seconds the entire time. Just when you think that you couldnt get more stupid.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5338397/#Comment_5338397

pieratsos wrote:

And shields are not impacted at all by CP that increases crit damage or penetration, two of the main CP sinks for damage outside of Master-At-Arms and Mighty/Elemental Expert.

Wait wait wait. Did you actually insinuate that shields having no resistances is good for them because opponents have waisted points in penetration CP? Can you even comprehend the stupidity of that comment?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5360378#Comment_5360378

pieratsos wrote:

The stacking at keeps is a combination of the following:
- Current tick mechanics
- current siege mechanics
- radius part of camps
- lack of strong groups who can confidently seperate from the frontline and go it alone successfully. (I'm not talking about the flip back line and leave immediately groups)
- server performance and population

Removing camps would just increase the other problems because people would play much safer just stacking/attacking in keeps with greater numbers even more to attempt to prevent deaths

Are you seriously telling me that clueless people just rush through oils and catapults and melt because they have the safety of the camp and not because they are just dumb? Seriously?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5354605/#Comment_5354605

pieratsos wrote:

Anyway, your attempt to teach me is so cute, appreciate that

Ok i wont, feel free to make a fool of urself a little more with ur lack of knowledge of basic game mechanics. No issue with me.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5349800/#Comment_5349800

pieratsos wrote:

Well You're like always missing the main point of discussion which is competitve and fair gameplay without favouring brainless playstyles which many people wants but You dont. Also in your head You have vision that shieldbreaker spammer will post a message to that magsorc he want to attack that he's going to LA spam and he have shieldbreaker.

In reality what will happen is shieldbreaker LA spammer will start spamming light attacks from hide stunning opponent at opening which will cause atleast 3 light attack and 1 oblivion dmg enchant to proc which means before magsorc even start fight he is already around half of his health. So when fight starts it's 20+ k health for shieldbreaker spammer vs 10-15k health for magsorc so 3,5k DPS (adding oblivion dmg enchant it's possible with Sload it's even more) is pretty much enough to take magsorc down before he'll apply his full combo. From the moment magsorc breakes free to the moment his full dmg combo is exploding it'll take 6+ seconds since after break free he'll have to localize the enemy 1st apply defenses like ehaling ward etc and then start applying his combo which takes like 4 seconds atleast. Since fight barely started and sorc is already low on health he needs to choose either go in full defense mode which will cause no dmg to enemy while burning down resources or risk and try to nuke enemy but when it'll fail that will mean death. If sorc decide to go with the burst combo all what shieldbreaker user needs to do is poping immovability pot and block for a split of second to reduce sorc burst combo potential to the point it wont be even half of the dmg You suggested it can be. You can say "well then just blink away" but when blink have 15 meters and bow LA 36+ meters it's not that simple especially if shieldbreaker user can apply some slows. Blink is not sulution for everything.

Of course magsorc have chance to deal with that type of build under certain circumstances like weak experience of opponent , ready to use resto ult , dark deal slotted , tristat potion used in proper moment and basicly outplaying and outstarting the opponent. The problem is that magsorc needs to be much more experienced player then shieldbreaker spammer to even have a chance of winning this. Now if there will be 2 shieldbreaker users agaisnt 1 magsorc they can be really average players to take that 1 sorc down with ease just by mashing 1 button. If we'll compare amount of things magsorc needs to do to survive or even win this fight against pure light attack spam then it's quite obvious this fight is far from fair or competitive and skill is secondary variable.

To actually understand everything you just wrote someone would have to be at least familiar with game mechanics. Unfortunately some people are just simply clueless.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5345743/#Comment_5345743

pieratsos wrote:

I have shown you a video of a sorc killing his target in one second.

A duel to prove it can be done in seven is thus completely pointless.

You are not really familiar with the terms DPS and burst dmg are you?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5344764/#Comment_5344764

...I'm actually having a harder time finding posts where you don't insult people. How forum moderators still allow someone that toxic around is beyond me.

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Yes, that's pretty much what theorycrafting is, using numbers in the game and trying to figure out the optimal combination of variables. Where you are wrong though is that the game would "create" these formulas or builds - that part is on the players.

Oh really? And i thought it was also about the actual theory behind the build. You know, the line of thinking behind the build, rotations, choices etc. Especially when we are talking about non meta. You know, when i look at ur mDK build, i dont give a crap about the math behind choosing BSW. Anyone can do that. You know whats actual theorycraft? Taking a skill (chains) that everyone regarded as a dead skill and proving to people that its good. Taking an entire class everyone viewed as a tank and showing that it can be played otherwise. Thats theorycrafting, not math. Thats what leads back to you. Not the math you did.

Yes really. How do you imagine people figured out that skills like Chains are actually good? Or that Asylum Bow would be best option for stamina ranged burst? Math.

pieratsos wrote: »

No, im not wrong. The formulas are not on the players. They are on the devs. They created the formulas and how dmg, mitigation or sustain is calculated. You just take those formulas and put the numbers on them. Thats not necessarily theorycrafting. Thats just simple math. And yes when it comes to ur bow build its the game that made it for you. Nothing against ur build or the effort you put into it, but you just literally put on a bow that told you what to do and you did it in the most lazy way. A freaking gank. You know what would be impressive theorycrafting? Putting that on a stamden for example and try to incorporate the snipe burst into ur rotation, timing it with sub assault or whatever for insane burst. Thats theorycrafting. Jack Daniel's entire channel is an example of non meta theorycrafting. Even when his builds do not seem to perform good, they are still impressive just because of how outside of the box he thinks creating unique rotations etc. You could tweak the numbers of his builds as much as you want, but the builds will always bear his mark. Thats theorycrafting.

So in other words theorycrafting is making builds that you "approve" of, and rest is just "game making builds for people"? Smh.

Yes, I could use Asylum Bow on a Warden but it wouldn't be as efficient since warden lacks kiting tools and Sub Assault isn't necessary to get kills. Why? Because I've done the math and I actually tested prototypes of bow warden (along with bow sorc & bow DK). In theory the burst is there, but in practice you don't get to land it frequently enough when solo (in groups these setups actually work).

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lmao.

Imagine if some random nobody with no idea what he was talking about started debating the intricacies of road construction with you, Mr. civil engineer, and then started raging at you when you explained why he was wrong.

And you missed the point entirely so lmao indeed. For starters, ur analogy is unlucky to say the least. The difference between the qualifications you need to be able to talk about the two topics is like day and night. Are you seriously so naive to compare simple math equations with a subject such as road construction and even go as far as calling me a random nobody who has no idea what he is talking about because i had the audacity to disagree with you on how hard some simple math equations are?

But anw, thats not even the point. The point was that i did not dispute ur argument about being good at math. I disputed the basis of that argument. A better analogy would be like me bragging about being an engineer and the basis of that argument being that i know the ingredients of concrete. If i were to do that then you may as well call me an idiot because i would be. It doesnt take an engineer to know that. You can just google it.

Yeah, so imagine if someone kept claiming that the ingredients to concrete were gummy bears and lemonade and wouldn't believe you when you told him that wasn't the case and mentioned you have more expertise on the subject.

The analogy is not off at all, unfortunately.

Concrete, gummy bears, and lemonade do have a common chemical....citric acid. Legit chemist here.... don't make me nerd out.

pieratsos

DDuke wrote: »

How so? If someone is able to kill multiple people alone with less effort than other classes (and without using AoE abilities mind you) then I'd say there's a balance issue.

You don't think "potato smashing" (I'd be very curious how "being a potato" is determined, but let's not derail this any further than it already has been) should factor in at all when it comes to balance?

What should then, duels? Group vs group? As far as I'm aware mSorc has never been mediocre in any of those scenarios.


In my opinion all facets of the game should be considered.

Knowledge about game mechanics, viewing the class objectively, how it fairs in different scenarios and not just some extreme situations, what options does it have etc. With the exception of last patch and the rune cage abomination sorcs usually had the highest burst but also the most telegraphed. Potatoes do not know how to counter that and they simply explode to a sorc burst. A sorc tags them they start chasing the sorc running away from their group and there you go, u have an easy 1v3 for example. Its not that they just kill those potatoes easier. Its that they can also get into winnable fights easier because of their mobility. I never disputed that and i never said the class is trash. As long as a class has good mobility it will most likely be at least decent in open world.

However when you look at the class objectively at what it can do in other scenarios then multiple issues start popping up. They have no dots, their defense mechanics are forcing them to sacrifice prety much half of their cds just to keep their shields up, they have no debuffs, they simply cant put pressure on other people, they have no other defense mechanics other than shields, no build diversity, they have no options when they cant burst someone down. The class is simply not designed well. If you burst everyone down the class is broken, and if u cant the class feels subpar. Which is why you see sorcs not wanting to go back to presummerset. There is nothing more frustrating than fighting someone who is clearly a much worse player than you but still feel that there is nothing u can do to kill him because ur burst just isnt enough. This all or nothing crap cant be balanced. Id much rather see the cc return to frags without increasing its dmg and just give them a dot. Maybe on streak or defensive rune. And then get rid of the stupid shieldstacking and give them some other form of defense.

DDuke wrote: »

Also hold on... you yourself admit sorcs have been ridiculously strong even prior to Summerset:

You seem to confused when it comes to the timeline. Sorcs were ridiculously OP years ago. Back when we didnt have tanks, shields lasted 20s, people didnt have 43098675hp etc. You could prob call them OP up until homestead if you want even tho they were weaker compared to years ago when they were tanking zergs with one hand scratching their balls. Sorcs feeling subpar (i explained in what way) is mostly in between morrowind and summerset. Hp steadily increasing across the board, proxy "nerfs" , sustain nerfs in morrowind forcing them to drop dmg sets, frag nerfs, tanks popping left right and centre and it slowly reached a point where the burst just wasnt enough.

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote:

Go and watch the entire series of legend tournaments before summerset without cheesy crap. Msorc was competing with magplar for worst class. And thats because magplar had inadequate representation.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5361925/#Comment_5361925

pieratsos wrote:

Come on now, i think its common knowledge that sorcs before summerset were mostly relevant because they are good at killing potatoes. No sustained dmg, meh burst, crutching on master destro to cc and spammable. Before summerset i never even felt threatened by a sorc. All you needed was 25k+ hp and half a working braincell to survive against a normal sorc.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5362113/#Comment_5362113


Case closed.

Wait wut? Oh this should be really fun. Have you even bothered to actually read those quotes and actually understand them? Lol. You took both quotes out of context to create a strawman so it can fit in ur agenda. And then u are wondering why im telling you that you are spinning things? Literally my next post to you after that quote is this

pieratsos wrote: »

Complaining? Where did you see me complaining? I was just pointing out some facts. The point of mentioning duelling wasnt to judge the class based on duelling non cheese. I didnt say the class was trash because they were not good in "balanced" duels. I was just pointing out that the class was meh against anyone decent. Mostly being able just to force a draw by just shieldstacking their *** off. Hence why people use the term subpar.

But i suppose that comment doesnt fit ur agenda so you conveniently didnt include it. Indeed case closed, thx for going through the trouble and proving for me that you are actually spinning everything just to prove that you are right.

DDuke wrote: »

...I'm actually having a harder time finding posts where you don't insult people. How forum moderators still allow someone that toxic around is beyond me.

Oh i have no issues at admitting of being toxic. But then again so are you and you wont admit it. Even tho half of those links you posted are not insults. Im sorry but if someone calls everyone a macro user and when u give some advice and explain what actually happened he responds by being ironic what did you expect. I didnt insult him. I just simply told him that he can keep making a fool of himself. Also how is calling a comment stupid or dumb an insult. If someone is telling you that killing someone with light attacks in 7 seconds is balanced or that shields having no resistances is a good thing about shields well..... I mean lets not kid ourselves here. We both know how you would answer in similar occasions. I mean, you've called people bad just because they dont like ur build or that they simply dont agree with you.

DDuke wrote: »

Yes really. How do you imagine people figured out that skills like Chains are actually good? Or that Asylum Bow would be best option for stamina ranged burst? Math.

Umm, what exactly is the math behind chains. Its a gap closer giving you empower allowing for more dmg. Its ur experience in the game that told you to even test that and how it would actually fit in ur build. Asylum bow being the best option for stamina ranged burst. Uhhh, i meant that you used a bow that basically told you what to do ffs. Its not that hard of a concept. You seem to be confusing knowledge of game mechanics and experience with math.

DDuke wrote: »

So in other words theorycrafting is making builds that you "approve" of, and rest is just "game making builds for people"? Smh.
Yes, I could use Asylum Bow on a Warden but it wouldn't be as efficient since warden lacks kiting tools and Sub Assault isn't necessary to get kills. Why? Because I've done the math and I actually tested prototypes of bow warden (along with bow sorc & bow DK). In theory the burst is there, but in practice you don't get to land it frequently enough when solo (in groups these setups actually work).

Only I approve? Where did i say that i do not approve ur builds and that anything i dont approve is just "game making builds for people". I just said that its not impressive because the freaking bow literally told you what to do.

I never stated that it would be as efficient as other meta stamden builds. Just like ur bow build is not as efficient as meta stamblades. But its a theorycrafting challenge to make something non meta work no? And i gave you jack's builds as an example. That bolded statement tho. Now do you understand what i mean when i say its not just maths? You literally explained it urself.

DDuke wrote: »

Yeah, so imagine if someone kept claiming that the ingredients to concrete were gummy bears and lemonade and wouldn't believe you when you told him that wasn't the case and mentioned you have more expertise on the subject.

The analogy is not off at all, unfortunately.

But i never told you that ur math are wrong. So the analogy is most certainly off. I just told you that solving simple math equations doesnt make you a math expert. If you were to tell me that knowing the ingredients of concrete doesnt make you an engineer you would be right.

Didgerion

KingLogix wrote: »

I wont write much. To keep it short.... the damage from the rune cage is not the issue. the 0 counter play followed by a huge timed delayed burst is the issue.

This is no where near comparable to fossilize > dk burst.

That's true and false. Fossilize is better than rune cage if you play against a magica build in non-CP campaign...

Also rune cage is hit or miss against a good stamina build, you have one chance to kill a stamina build with rune-cage and meteor combo while stamina build has multiple opportunities to do it while your meteor is charging up....again i'm talking non CP campaign....

Maybe CP system is the problem and not rune-cage...

The only problem of rune-cage is player not being able to instantly break it.

But now, mag sorcs have nothing to do in non-cp campaign.

Mayrael

Didgerion wrote: »

KingLogix wrote: »

I wont write much. To keep it short.... the damage from the rune cage is not the issue. the 0 counter play followed by a huge timed delayed burst is the issue.

This is no where near comparable to fossilize > dk burst.

That's true and false. Fossilize is better than rune cage if you play against a magica build in non-CP campaign...

Also rune cage is hit or miss against a good stamina build, you have one chance to kill a stamina build with rune-cage and meteor combo while stamina build has multiple opportunities to do it while your meteor is charging up....again i'm talking non CP campaign....

Maybe CP system is the problem and not rune-cage...

The only problem of rune-cage is player not being able to instantly break it.

But now, mag sorcs have nothing to do in non-cp campaign.

Main problem w RC is that it have delay. When you have frags froced all you need to do is to cast RC and frags and your target gets stunned in the moment when frags are connecting not allowing you to counter it (at least at closer ranges, when you use RC and frags from 30+ meters it won't work). Usual rotation curse, furry, rc, frags is very easy to pull off and hits almost simultaneously not allowing for any counter play when done right.

bardx86

pieratsos wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Yes I did, in an entirely different context. Try to keep up.

Sigh, here we go again. You are the one who brought up 1vX as some pathetic attempt to portray mSorcs as some OP monster wrecking everyone (prior to summerset). I just used ur logic and brought up the top 5 clips featuring one medium build after the other even tho u said it sucks (to which i actually agreed) to show you that 1vX videos are not really a measure of which class is actually overperforming. To which you replied again with another pathetic attempt that kodi wouldnt do this or that cause its not enjoyable content or whatever even tho there was evidence of the exact opposite. And i explained that he wouldnt fill the video with sorc clips because simply they are not impressive meaning the vast majority of them is just potato smashing. Now if ur measurement of balance is potato smashing then sure, sorcs were always monsters. But then again, if potato smashing is ur measurement of balance, then ur logic is flawed to begin with.

I never attempted to portray mSorcs as some weak underdog class. I just explained where the term sub par comes from, when people use it to describe sorcs prior to summerset. mSorcs being a bad class and talking about rune cage even tho it wasnt even the topic are just nonsense you keep trying to put in my mouth just to prove ur point.

DDuke wrote: »

Cool, are you going to repeat for the 27th time your opinions about how "weak" the class with the highest burst & some of the best defensive tools in the entire game was before summerset?

More nonsense and putting words in my mouth just to make a point. Nothing new here.

DDuke wrote: »

When people complain about sorc burst, they are correct based on math. It's not an opinion, it's numbers - unless sorcs are so "weak" that even the laws of mathematics want nothing to do with them.

Sorc is supposed to be the burst class. It should have higher burst than the rest of the classes. It should hurt when u get hit by a sorc burst because if they cant kill you with that they aint going to kill you ever. Sorc burst prior to summerset wasnt high. It was enough mostly against normal medium armor builds, on top of actually having a million different counters. Complaining about that is not correct. If the burst class cant even burst the squishy builds when they manage to land the most telegraphed combo in the game, then what the hell would be the purpose of playing that class at all? To just shieldstack people to death?

DDuke wrote: »

Also there's a difference between a false statement and a fallacy (which an ad hominem is). A logical fallacy is a flaw in reasoning - i.e. you are attacking my persona & not my argument - two completely uncorrelated subjects.

And telling people that they are not smart is not attacking their persona?
Or telling people they are bad and they just want free kills even after they specifically stated numerous times that they consider rune cage broken?
Or telling someone who disagreed with ur build as being viable that he is just bad?

Its almost as if telling people that they are bad is a cold hard fact according to you and not actually a personal attack. I mean we can keep going back and forth on the topic. Kinda boring tho. Can we go back on the insults? They were more fun.

DDuke wrote: »

Yes, that's pretty much what theorycrafting is, using numbers in the game and trying to figure out the optimal combination of variables. Where you are wrong though is that the game would "create" these formulas or builds - that part is on the players.

Oh really? And i thought it was also about the actual theory behind the build. You know, the line of thinking behind the build, rotations, choices etc. Especially when we are talking about non meta. You know, when i look at ur mDK build, i dont give a crap about the math behind choosing BSW. Anyone can do that. You know whats actual theorycraft? Taking a skill (chains) that everyone regarded as a dead skill and proving to people that its good. Taking an entire class everyone viewed as a tank and showing that it can be played otherwise. Thats theorycrafting, not math. Thats what leads back to you. Not the math you did.

No, im not wrong. The formulas are not on the players. They are on the devs. They created the formulas and how dmg, mitigation or sustain is calculated. You just take those formulas and put the numbers on them. Thats not necessarily theorycrafting. Thats just simple math. And yes when it comes to ur bow build its the game that made it for you. Nothing against ur build or the effort you put into it, but you just literally put on a bow that told you what to do and you did it in the most lazy way. A freaking gank. You know what would be impressive theorycrafting? Putting that on a stamden for example and try to incorporate the snipe burst into ur rotation, timing it with sub assault or whatever for insane burst. Thats theorycrafting. Jack Daniel's entire channel is an example of non meta theorycrafting. Even when his builds do not seem to perform good, they are still impressive just because of how outside of the box he thinks creating unique rotations etc. You could tweak the numbers of his builds as much as you want, but the builds will always bear his mark. Thats theorycrafting.

DDuke wrote: »

Lmao.

Imagine if some random nobody with no idea what he was talking about started debating the intricacies of road construction with you, Mr. civil engineer, and then started raging at you when you explained why he was wrong.

And you missed the point entirely so lmao indeed. For starters, ur analogy is unlucky to say the least. The difference between the qualifications you need to be able to talk about the two topics is like day and night. Are you seriously so naive to compare simple math equations with a subject such as road construction and even go as far as calling me a random nobody who has no idea what he is talking about because i had the audacity to disagree with you on how hard some simple math equations are?

But anw, thats not even the point. The point was that i did not dispute ur argument about being good at math. I disputed the basis of that argument. A better analogy would be like me bragging about being an engineer and the basis of that argument being that i know the ingredients of concrete. If i were to do that then you may as well call me an idiot because i would be. It doesnt take an engineer to know that. You can just google it.

"Nothing against ur build or the effort you put into it, but you just literally put on a bow that told you what to do and you did it in the most lazy way. A freaking gank."

Bravo, Lol

Yes i have no issues with the build and i understand the effort he put into it. Its his work kudos to him. However it is what is. What exactly did you not understand? Or are we somehow not allowed to judge other people's builds now?

Maybe I came off wrong there. I thought what you said was perfect hince the bravo.

Jsmalls

@DDuke

Why do you keep bringing up 2016 like it was a patch ago...

In 2016 my MagSorc would melt everything in existence and I was able to Solo PvP and take down large groups single handily.

Great MagSorcs in 2016 were Gods to other players...


It's 2018 now, 2 YEARS LATER.

I can't even 1v2 anymore without a struggle for resources, enough time to get out of defense and into offense, or without running into players with 27k health (no one did that *** in 2016, used to be high risk high reward for everyone and if you made a mistake you died, not survive with 10k health because your setup allows for mistakes).


You can't take our strengths in 2016 as a dueling class and apply them to 2018, even if it was the last time a dueling tournament happened in EU. There have been plenty more in NA since then and let me tell you MagSorcs were getting laughed at IN RECENT PATCHES.

Let's live in the current year, thanks. Case closed.

D0PAMINE

I was frustrated getting rune caged but I ended up practicing the break free and looking for signs that im about to be caged, and now it's no longer an issue for me and I can usually get out. My only issue is sometimes momentum, reflective plate, immov pots etc don't seem to give immunity or remove the snare. My ping is usually pretty good even in PCNA Cyro vivec primetime.

DDuke

Jsmalls wrote: »

@DDuke

Why do you keep bringing up 2016 like it was a patch ago...

In 2016 my MagSorc would melt everything in existence and I was able to Solo PvP and take down large groups single handily.

Great MagSorcs in 2016 were Gods to other players...


It's 2018 now, 2 YEARS LATER.

I can't even 1v2 anymore without a struggle for resources, enough time to get out of defense and into offense, or without running into players with 27k health (no one did that *** in 2016, used to be high risk high reward for everyone and if you made a mistake you died, not survive with 10k health because your setup allows for mistakes).


You can't take our strengths in 2016 as a dueling class and apply them to 2018, even if it was the last time a dueling tournament happened in EU. There have been plenty more in NA since then and let me tell you MagSorcs were getting laughed at IN RECENT PATCHES.

Let's live in the current year, thanks. Case closed.

That's on you if you can't 1vX on a sorc, it has never been easier thanks to Rune Cage. If you meant the last few patches then that's still on you, because I can find dozens of videos of sorcerers able to do that.

And dueling... I still see plenty of pet sorcerers doing well when I visit EU dueling spot. Guess how many medium armor builds I see doing well? 0.

So don't act like a martyr when other cheese builds can pose a challenge.

TheValar85

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

@Checkmath

Imo the range should have been reduced to ~20m, well within gap closer range, and the dmg should have been removed. Other than that, it was fine unblockable/undodgable. That way the sorc can still play ranged but has to move closer for the kill. There has always been counterplay to sorc burst since you can see it from a mile away, unless this is another balance change related to Xv1 capability? I play every class and sorcs rarely get their full combos off on me if I'm focused on countering them.

Either way, between the massive QQ and the resulting overnerf, poor form all around. They can't even give us any frags damage back to make this nerf more palatable. Just more "counterplay" for stamblades this patch... Lining up a Lethal Arrow stun from stealth + Ambush + Incap + finisher will still be possible, takes less time to setup, all hits in 1-2 GCD. Often non telegraphed the way LA works and you can fire off that combo much more often than Meteor combos. I guess the counterplay to NB's is to assume that one is always setting up a kill combo from stealth? And failing their combos carries less risk, Cloak says hi. And people complain about "counterplay" from the class with the most telegraphed burst?

yeah thst just ridiculus

TheValar85

Ender1310 wrote: »

Everyone can't be wrong...there are a massive amount of player base complaining about rune cage/shield stacking. They are all wrong? Like really? All of them?

i wouldn't call a few people everybody if i were you.

Feanor

So...4.1.5:

1. Reduced the stun duration to 3.5 seconds from 5
2. Decreased the damage by 20%
3. Damage only gets applied if the stun lasts the full duration
4. Made it dodgeable

LOL.

TheValar85

D0PAMINE wrote: »

I was frustrated getting rune caged but I ended up practicing the break free and looking for signs that im about to be caged, and now it's no longer an issue for me and I can usually get out. My only issue is sometimes momentum, reflective plate, immov pots etc don't seem to give immunity or remove the snare. My ping is usually pretty good even in PCNA Cyro vivec primetime.

See this guys comment? This is how you lrean, this is what you should all do. instead of QQ.

Kudos for you men.

Jsmalls

DDuke wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

@DDuke

Why do you keep bringing up 2016 like it was a patch ago...

In 2016 my MagSorc would melt everything in existence and I was able to Solo PvP and take down large groups single handily.

Great MagSorcs in 2016 were Gods to other players...


It's 2018 now, 2 YEARS LATER.

I can't even 1v2 anymore without a struggle for resources, enough time to get out of defense and into offense, or without running into players with 27k health (no one did that *** in 2016, used to be high risk high reward for everyone and if you made a mistake you died, not survive with 10k health because your setup allows for mistakes).


You can't take our strengths in 2016 as a dueling class and apply them to 2018, even if it was the last time a dueling tournament happened in EU. There have been plenty more in NA since then and let me tell you MagSorcs were getting laughed at IN RECENT PATCHES.

Let's live in the current year, thanks. Case closed.

That's on you if you can't 1vX on a sorc, it has never been easier thanks to Rune Cage. If you meant the last few patches then that's still on you, because I can find dozens of videos of sorcerers able to do that.

And dueling... I still see plenty of pet sorcerers doing well when I visit EU dueling spot. Guess how many medium armor builds I see doing well? 0.

So don't act like a martyr when other cheese builds can pose a challenge.

@DDuke

I can post videos all day off 1vXing potatoes that don't know how to heal, Dodge roll, block or give sustained pressure.

I'm saying the videos from 2016 and 2018 would be infinitely different. 2016 would include several skilled players in the 1vX where as in 2018 there may only be one. Making a 1vX video and putting it on YouTube isn't hard, it just requires enough play time, I mean even you can do it so.

Might be shocking but I don't use Rune Cage. I use elemental weapons and streak. Higher burst opportunity but very counterable.

DDuke

Jsmalls wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

@DDuke

Why do you keep bringing up 2016 like it was a patch ago...

In 2016 my MagSorc would melt everything in existence and I was able to Solo PvP and take down large groups single handily.

Great MagSorcs in 2016 were Gods to other players...


It's 2018 now, 2 YEARS LATER.

I can't even 1v2 anymore without a struggle for resources, enough time to get out of defense and into offense, or without running into players with 27k health (no one did that *** in 2016, used to be high risk high reward for everyone and if you made a mistake you died, not survive with 10k health because your setup allows for mistakes).


You can't take our strengths in 2016 as a dueling class and apply them to 2018, even if it was the last time a dueling tournament happened in EU. There have been plenty more in NA since then and let me tell you MagSorcs were getting laughed at IN RECENT PATCHES.

Let's live in the current year, thanks. Case closed.

That's on you if you can't 1vX on a sorc, it has never been easier thanks to Rune Cage. If you meant the last few patches then that's still on you, because I can find dozens of videos of sorcerers able to do that.

And dueling... I still see plenty of pet sorcerers doing well when I visit EU dueling spot. Guess how many medium armor builds I see doing well? 0.

So don't act like a martyr when other cheese builds can pose a challenge.

@DDuke

I can post videos all day off 1vXing potatoes that don't know how to heal, Dodge roll, block or give sustained pressure.

I'm saying the videos from 2016 and 2018 would be infinitely different. 2016 would include several skilled players in the 1vX where as in 2018 there may only be one. Making a 1vX video and putting it on YouTube isn't hard, it just requires enough play time, I mean even you can do it so.

Might be shocking but I don't use Rune Cage. I use elemental weapons and streak. Higher burst opportunity but very counterable.

So you're saying sorc is balanced and in line with other classes now then? Unless what you're implying is that another class can "1vX good players" (which btw is a bit of a paradox).

Feanor

DDuke wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

@DDuke

Why do you keep bringing up 2016 like it was a patch ago...

In 2016 my MagSorc would melt everything in existence and I was able to Solo PvP and take down large groups single handily.

Great MagSorcs in 2016 were Gods to other players...


It's 2018 now, 2 YEARS LATER.

I can't even 1v2 anymore without a struggle for resources, enough time to get out of defense and into offense, or without running into players with 27k health (no one did that *** in 2016, used to be high risk high reward for everyone and if you made a mistake you died, not survive with 10k health because your setup allows for mistakes).


You can't take our strengths in 2016 as a dueling class and apply them to 2018, even if it was the last time a dueling tournament happened in EU. There have been plenty more in NA since then and let me tell you MagSorcs were getting laughed at IN RECENT PATCHES.

Let's live in the current year, thanks. Case closed.

That's on you if you can't 1vX on a sorc, it has never been easier thanks to Rune Cage. If you meant the last few patches then that's still on you, because I can find dozens of videos of sorcerers able to do that.

And dueling... I still see plenty of pet sorcerers doing well when I visit EU dueling spot. Guess how many medium armor builds I see doing well? 0.

So don't act like a martyr when other cheese builds can pose a challenge.

@DDuke

I can post videos all day off 1vXing potatoes that don't know how to heal, Dodge roll, block or give sustained pressure.

I'm saying the videos from 2016 and 2018 would be infinitely different. 2016 would include several skilled players in the 1vX where as in 2018 there may only be one. Making a 1vX video and putting it on YouTube isn't hard, it just requires enough play time, I mean even you can do it so.

Might be shocking but I don't use Rune Cage. I use elemental weapons and streak. Higher burst opportunity but very counterable.

So you're saying sorc is balanced and in line with other classes now then? Unless what you're implying is that another class can "1vX good players" (Which btw is a bit of a paradox).

No, he's saying you can't 1vX good players on a Sorc either, Rune Cage or no. Unless you have other evidence of course that shows 1vXing said good players that aren't afk'ing somehow.

Beardimus

Feanor wrote: »

So...4.1.5:

1. Reduced the stun duration to 3.5 seconds from 5
2. Decreased the damage by 20%
3. Damage only gets applied if the stun lasts the full duration
4. Made it dodgeable

LOL.

Hilarious and still the warriors continue to moan about sorc.

Honestly if they put the energy into learning to counter that they put in this thread their issues would disappear .

I wonder what they are going to moan about next. As they have got what they wanted (beyond) in fact with rune cage.

I'm embarrassed for anyone that continues to moan.

NOW time to start a thread about Cloak needing a stocking cost like streak I'm sure all the nightladies from this thread will be straight over.

DDuke

Feanor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

@DDuke

Why do you keep bringing up 2016 like it was a patch ago...

In 2016 my MagSorc would melt everything in existence and I was able to Solo PvP and take down large groups single handily.

Great MagSorcs in 2016 were Gods to other players...


It's 2018 now, 2 YEARS LATER.

I can't even 1v2 anymore without a struggle for resources, enough time to get out of defense and into offense, or without running into players with 27k health (no one did that *** in 2016, used to be high risk high reward for everyone and if you made a mistake you died, not survive with 10k health because your setup allows for mistakes).


You can't take our strengths in 2016 as a dueling class and apply them to 2018, even if it was the last time a dueling tournament happened in EU. There have been plenty more in NA since then and let me tell you MagSorcs were getting laughed at IN RECENT PATCHES.

Let's live in the current year, thanks. Case closed.

That's on you if you can't 1vX on a sorc, it has never been easier thanks to Rune Cage. If you meant the last few patches then that's still on you, because I can find dozens of videos of sorcerers able to do that.

And dueling... I still see plenty of pet sorcerers doing well when I visit EU dueling spot. Guess how many medium armor builds I see doing well? 0.

So don't act like a martyr when other cheese builds can pose a challenge.

@DDuke

I can post videos all day off 1vXing potatoes that don't know how to heal, Dodge roll, block or give sustained pressure.

I'm saying the videos from 2016 and 2018 would be infinitely different. 2016 would include several skilled players in the 1vX where as in 2018 there may only be one. Making a 1vX video and putting it on YouTube isn't hard, it just requires enough play time, I mean even you can do it so.

Might be shocking but I don't use Rune Cage. I use elemental weapons and streak. Higher burst opportunity but very counterable.

So you're saying sorc is balanced and in line with other classes now then? Unless what you're implying is that another class can "1vX good players" (Which btw is a bit of a paradox).

No, he's saying you can't 1vX good players on a Sorc either, Rune Cage or no. Unless you have other evidence of course that shows 1vXing said good players that aren't afk'ing somehow.

You could easily 1vX good players before Rune Cage nerf because it removed the capability to react (i.e. what separates them from bad players) from those players.

Being a "good player" doesn't mean playing tank builds only.


No point dwelling on this though, the problem has been eradicated. Mission accomplished.

Feanor

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

@DDuke

Why do you keep bringing up 2016 like it was a patch ago...

In 2016 my MagSorc would melt everything in existence and I was able to Solo PvP and take down large groups single handily.

Great MagSorcs in 2016 were Gods to other players...


It's 2018 now, 2 YEARS LATER.

I can't even 1v2 anymore without a struggle for resources, enough time to get out of defense and into offense, or without running into players with 27k health (no one did that *** in 2016, used to be high risk high reward for everyone and if you made a mistake you died, not survive with 10k health because your setup allows for mistakes).


You can't take our strengths in 2016 as a dueling class and apply them to 2018, even if it was the last time a dueling tournament happened in EU. There have been plenty more in NA since then and let me tell you MagSorcs were getting laughed at IN RECENT PATCHES.

Let's live in the current year, thanks. Case closed.

That's on you if you can't 1vX on a sorc, it has never been easier thanks to Rune Cage. If you meant the last few patches then that's still on you, because I can find dozens of videos of sorcerers able to do that.

And dueling... I still see plenty of pet sorcerers doing well when I visit EU dueling spot. Guess how many medium armor builds I see doing well? 0.

So don't act like a martyr when other cheese builds can pose a challenge.

@DDuke

I can post videos all day off 1vXing potatoes that don't know how to heal, Dodge roll, block or give sustained pressure.

I'm saying the videos from 2016 and 2018 would be infinitely different. 2016 would include several skilled players in the 1vX where as in 2018 there may only be one. Making a 1vX video and putting it on YouTube isn't hard, it just requires enough play time, I mean even you can do it so.

Might be shocking but I don't use Rune Cage. I use elemental weapons and streak. Higher burst opportunity but very counterable.

So you're saying sorc is balanced and in line with other classes now then? Unless what you're implying is that another class can "1vX good players" (Which btw is a bit of a paradox).

No, he's saying you can't 1vX good players on a Sorc either, Rune Cage or no. Unless you have other evidence of course that shows 1vXing said good players that aren't afk'ing somehow.

You could easily 1vX good players before Rune Cage nerf because it removed the capability to react (i.e. what separates them from bad players) from those players.

Being a "good player" doesn't mean playing tank builds only.


No point dwelling on this though, the problem has been eradicated. Mission accomplished.

Being a "good player" means you break free instantly, and as you only have 1 Meteor available, you certainly don't win a 1v3. Yeah, another grand mission accomplished and another skill trashed (they even reduced the stun duration to 3.5 secs with 4.1.5 on top). I wonder what's next.

brandonv516

RC is now perfect.

Feanor

brandonv516 wrote: »

RC is now perfect.

For whom? I daresay everyone on the receiving end is rejoicing after it took 4 nerfs, sure.

Darkenarlol

make all sorc damage abilities applies only if target is afk for 20 sec

if target is not afk sorc takes a debuff - hardened ward instead of shielding gonna inflict

oblivion damage to sorc with double of the shield's tooltip

this change gonna be equal in matter of sanity to current RC changes

LjAnimalchin

Most sorcs this patch are completely delusional.. and in denial about the application of "skill" in this game..

Jsmalls

@DDuke

The paradox you speak of is just a confusion in understanding my post.

We can all agree that there are GREAT, GOOD, AVERAGE, and BAD/INEXPERIENCED players right?

Now I understand measuring that is borderline impossible. And if course great players can make mistakes and die to lesser skilled players, good players can execute well and kill a great player etc.

What I am saying is a GREAT MagSorc can't really 1vX good players anymore. You have a back loaded burst coupled with a timed defense mechanism (I agreed with the 6 second damage shield, not that they even last that long anyway) with no real spammable and no sustained pressure. 50% of your bursts will be interrupted by CCs, and a good majority are EASILY hard countered.

Our class ultimates are poor against good players, and any ultimates available to us like Soul assault and meteor have very limited usage (soul assault is good against a rolly polly, meteor is good against a cloaking NB... Sometimes). Rune cage gave us a good synergy with meteor (one that nightblades and dragon knights already had). Otherwise these ultimates are useless. LoS or back and they have become a wasted ultimate. Whereas dawnbreaker has become this God tier stamina ultimate that has little counters (preemptively blocking a move you're not sure is coming). The day magicka gets an ultimate of that caliber MagSorcs will most likely be back on top. Until then we'll 1vX potatoes and act like we're a great class when we're not.

This same thing can be said about Magicka Templars and Wardens, but I'm coming from the MagSorc perspective.

Beardimus

Can we edit the thread title?

Rune Cage go live is a REAL joke?

Or just close it, it's done. Cage is over. Nerf Sorc brigade are going home to sharpen their pitch forks for another day!

pieratsos

DDuke wrote: »

No point dwelling on this though, the problem has been eradicated. Mission accomplished.

Did you just say that ur mission was to make the skill useless? Hm, its just that i thought that ur goal was a constructive discussion to make it balanced like you said numerous times. Guess i was wrong.

Feanor

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

No point dwelling on this though, the problem has been eradicated. Mission accomplished.

Did you just say that ur mission was to make the skill useless? Hm, its just that i thought that ur goal was a constructive discussion to make it balanced like you said numerous times. Guess i was wrong.

I’m surprised you are surprised. At this point they could have reduced the stun duration even further to 1 second and the range to 8m too. It wouldn’t have mattered.

DDuke

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

No point dwelling on this though, the problem has been eradicated. Mission accomplished.

Did you just say that ur mission was to make the skill useless? Hm, its just that i thought that ur goal was a constructive discussion to make it balanced like you said numerous times. Guess i was wrong.

Mission objective: make the game worth playing again for non-tank builds.

Mission accomplished.


Did they overnerf Cage? Yes, sure (should've kept dmg since they made it dodgeable imo). But that's a whole lot better than the alternative.


They're gonna work on the ability next update & hopefully make it worth using (but not overpowered).

pieratsos

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

No point dwelling on this though, the problem has been eradicated. Mission accomplished.

Did you just say that ur mission was to make the skill useless? Hm, its just that i thought that ur goal was a constructive discussion to make it balanced like you said numerous times. Guess i was wrong.

Mission objective: make the game worth playing again for non-tank builds.

Mission accomplished.


Did they overnerf Cage? Yes, sure (should've kept dmg since they made it dodgeable imo). But that's a whole lot better than the alternative.


They're gonna work on the ability next update & hopefully make it worth using (but not overpowered).

Overnerfed is an understatement. I hate the ability with passion but even i feel pity for it. It made history. The first ability in the game to get nerfed 4 times in one patch.