[ZOS] Rework or remove cancel casting

beebay · August 2018

Mastery404 wrote: »

Sn1per0 wrote: »

You mean unintended mechanic. Does not change the fact that they NOW say it is a mechanic.

Source, please?

The light attack version shows up as a loading screen message. I’d say pretty official at this point.

p00tx · August 2018

All is fine, do not touch it at all

Sorry for the necro. No idea how I ended up here. Wish I could delete.

beebay · August 2018

p00tx wrote: »

Sorry for the necro. No idea how I ended up here. Wish I could delete.

Dont feel bad. I rarely pay attention to time stamps and compulsively post if I think my opinion is relevant.

Rickter · August 2018

All is fine, do not touch it at all

Reverb wrote: »

Mastery404 wrote: »

Sn1per0 wrote: »

You mean unintended mechanic. Does not change the fact that they NOW say it is a mechanic.

Source, please?

A 2015 ESO live, where Wrobel acknowledged they "are embracing it. It's a part of the game, and we want people to be doing it". His words. (Edit to embed link)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThZtwhYkKSs

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!! /thread!!!!!

like its official, its not called Cancel casting, its called Animation Canceling and what you dont understand is that it's precisely due to animation canceling that makes ESO's combat so fast and fliuid and sets it apart from its competition.

Due to bugs, combat is the ONE REDEEMING factor ESO has anymore. and youre going to try and petition to eliminate that?

LOL. kill the thread, please.

BigBragg · August 2018

All is fine, do not touch it at all

Rickter wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Mastery404 wrote: »

Sn1per0 wrote: »

You mean unintended mechanic. Does not change the fact that they NOW say it is a mechanic.

Source, please?

A 2015 ESO live, where Wrobel acknowledged they "are embracing it. It's a part of the game, and we want people to be doing it". His words. (Edit to embed link)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThZtwhYkKSs

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!! /thread!!!!!

like its official, its not called Cancel casting, its called Animation Canceling and what you dont understand is that it's precisely due to animation canceling that makes ESO's combat so fast and fliuid and sets it apart from its competition.

Due to bugs, combat is the ONE REDEEMING factor ESO has anymore. and youre going to try and petition to eliminate that?

LOL. kill the thread, please.

It should have been /thread when that video was posted a year and a half ago. I mean the video is three years old now. It is part of the game that the vocal minority can't seem to get behind, because their own stubborn ideas keep getting in the way. Approach it with an open mindset and learn it, use it, enjoy is wonderful nueances.

p00tx · August 2018

All is fine, do not touch it at all

So, for this to be an actual bug, or issue, its occurrence would have to be inconsistent and it would not be reliably replicated when prompted. Since this is available to literally everyone, and it can be easily and consistently replicated, it can't be called a bug. I really can't, for the life of me, imagine a scenario in which animation cancelling could be problematic, other than one in which one party was unwilling to learn how to do it themselves.

I don't know if I'd even be able to run my rotation without doing it anymore...

jcm2606 · August 2018

All is fine, do not touch it at all

SilverWF wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

I like when "pro" players (not pro in fact) protecting "weaving" or talking about something, that has nothing to do with the initial post.
If you just can't read - are you sure, that you are 'pro'? Lol, not.

Please, point me where I am fighting against 'weaving'? If you can't - then, you are ignorants, sorry.

I am talking about animation cancellation, when skill does NOT visually playing at all. And I am suggesting (one of options) to allow AC with any skill or attack, as long as it became a 'feature'. How does it would affect your lovely weaving? Right - nohow. WTF you are arguing here then?

AC ruins PVP experience completely, when victim has no clues about his enemy actions. Completely has no clues, because skills and attacks becomes 'invisible' for him! (That's why last screenshot here - just a visual example for some slow and low visitors). Not enemy by himself, but his actions.

Was it intended by ZOS? Not. Otherwise why skills has their unique visuals and not just all the same "weapon smashing"? Answer is obvious, right? For me - yes.

And not, this is not the same as attacking from stealth. Stealth was intended and designed like that, and you can not be 100% time in the stealth while attacking at the same time.

Lol, I feel myself like a teacher who explan '2+2' for low school kids

Weaving is animation cancelling. When you light attack weave, you are cancelling the recovery portion of the light attack animation with the skill. This is the literal definition of animation cancelling: to cancel the animation of one action with another. So yes, you are talking about weaving.

There are visual cues to the action that aren't the character animation in itself. I just tested in-game with two friends, both against a target dummy (out of PVP combat) and against one of them (in PVP combat), and they can still see the slash effect of the base morph of Venomous Claw, Searing Strike. I doubt morphing would do much, so you absolutely can see the visual cue of Venomous Claw. Heroic Slash I tested myself against a target dummy, and while it was a much quicker animation which does make it harder to notice, you can notice it. A bunch of sparks pop out of your target when the attack connects. Given the fact that I also tested Searing Strike against a target dummy solo, and I had the exact same results as with my two friends, it's a fair assumption that Heroic Slash is the same. So there absolutely is visual cues to skills, you just need to know how to spot them.

Even without visual cues, though, there are other ways to tell you've been hit with skills. The main part of Venomous Claw is the dot, which will show up as a status effect in your buffs/debuffs list, which you should have given it is now a base game feature, but even then you have addons so S'rendarr is a much better choice.

And yes, it was absolutely intended by Zenimax. The current state of blocking in all content relies on animation cancelling to be done reliably. Same with roll dodging, same with bar swapping (go into veteran Maelstrom and try completing the last stage frantically keeping your heals going without bar swap cancelling), same with light/heavy attacking (some mechanics rely on light/heavy attacking, sometimes you need the resources/ultimate, and it adds more depth to combat). Trust me when I say that even if block cancelling were removed, you would want it added back in the moment you feel how sluggish and unresponsive combat becomes.

Aren't you in the Jen Psaki club?

When ZOS said it wasn't intended - you still say it was. Okay

Visual cues? Where? In the spherics circumstances? Lol, how about always lagging and loosing packets Cyro?

Your attempts to defend obviously broken and bad designed mechs has no sense absolutely.

This crap can be protected only by: macro-users or that ones, who living closer to server (not geographically - prevention of ignorants responses) and has this onnly advantage, without that they can't do anything.
Lol-Pros

I live in Australia. On a good day in PVP, I sit at 350-500 ping constantly. In PVE, ping sits anywhere between 250-400. And I can see the cues. There is no reason why you shouldn't be able to see them due to lag if I can see them.

And no, I don't use macros. I've just put the time and effort into learning how to do it with my ping, and to be honest I'm not the best at it. I'm slow, I've learned what speed my ping likes me to go at without dropping inputs, so I animation cancel a tad slower than your average US player with 50-150 ping. And yet I'm defending this apparently "broken and bad designed" mechanic, because I know that it is central to the combat system.

Again, if animation cancelling were removed, you'd want it added back in the moment you feel how sluggish the combat system is. Go into any decently hard veteran dungeon and wait for the whole animation of every action to complete before starting another. Wait for your character to return to the idle pose. Do that, then maybe we can talk. Until then, you have no idea what you're talking about, and if you had your way, you would ruin the game for everybody.

GrigorijMalahevich · August 2018

You don’t benefit anything by animation cancelling with block, just saying...

Jayman1000 · August 2018

Remove possibility to block or swap panels until your character has stopped animation

I agree. I hate animation cancelling. It's not a matter of not being able to figure it out, it's a matter of hating that particular way of playing. I'd rather have less dps than having to play like that, so that's what I do. It's not particularly fun though knowing that I am not outputting my full potential because Im a avoiding a silly gameplay mechanic.

However as you can see in the vote most players just LUUURV it.... so, that's how it is.

paulychan · August 2018

All is fine, do not touch it at all

Great for bursting, not so great for sustained damage. I’m on console and I weave and cancel as often as I want. It’s an actual mechanic according to Zos and weaving is suggested during level up.

MakoFore · August 2018

All is fine, do not touch it at all

animation cancelling may have been a bug- but its inadvertently given combat another layer of skill and a higher ceiling for thsoe who are wiling to put in the time...and punish those that dont have a 150 ping. its great for some - horrible for others. i cancel everything but my ability to do so is always affected by ping. sometimes it ll cancel the actual skill going off at all.

Wifeaggro13 · August 2018

Remove possibility to block or swap panels until your character has stopped animation

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Argument is the same as it's always been. Camp A says that it's an exploit that ZOS didn't feel like fixing, camp B says that it's a feature.

What I've never understood though is the whole "game would be too slow" argument. Like, a 1s GCD isn't really all that slow. I feel like the vast majority of the gaming community as a whole is fine with the idea of that pace, the players who actually like it faster are a vocal minority just trying to keep their advantage because I guess they all live in the speed force or something.

It's true that the game is built around cancelling now though. If there were a proper 1s GCD in place, where it was literally 1 action per second, then weaving would become a lot slower and dps would go down by a good bit. I'm sure most content would still be very much complete-able, but vet trials would definitely have to be re-tuned. In the long run, I think it would be worth it, but ZOS isn't about to put so much time into something that the casuals don't notice and anyone who sticks around long enough to care will probably stay for other reasons.

no its always been a bug that zos acknowledged. then they decieded to leave it and call a feature

MisterBigglesworth · August 2018

None of the poll options is ideal.
I have always maintained this one simple rule:

If you cancel the animation, you cancel the damage.

Doesn't matter if you cancelled it by blocking, or bar swapping, or dodge-rolling, or whatever. If you cancel the animation, the damage is cancelled as well.

SilverWF · August 2018

Allow cancel cast animation by light or heavy attacks or another skill cast

Why video with that guy popped here? How does it proves a point that this is NOT a bad game design.
At 3th page I am repeating that this is bad game design. 'Design' ~= 'bug'
Please, hand up who cant understand that.

jcm2606 wrote: »

Again, if animation cancelling were removed, you'd want it added back in the moment you feel how sluggish the combat system is. Go into any decently hard veteran dungeon and wait for the whole animation of every action to complete before starting another. Wait for your character to return to the idle pose. Do that, then maybe we can talk. Until then, you have no idea what you're talking about, and if you had your way, you would ruin the game for everybody.

Again? Wow
Seriously, how many time surrounding you ppl usually talking to you the same things in hope you'll finally get them?
Personally me, again, in 100th time, specially for you, supporting the idea allowing AC with anything. It's even literally above any of my posts - poll option.

But you still talking to me, that removing AC is bad. Are you OK?

Aesthier · August 2018

Remove possibility to block or swap panels until your character has stopped animation

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

None of the poll options is ideal.
I have always maintained this one simple rule:

If you cancel the animation, you cancel the damage.

Doesn't matter if you cancelled it by blocking, or bar swapping, or dodge-rolling, or whatever. If you cancel the animation, the damage is cancelled as well.

^ This a thousand times over.

SilverWF · August 2018

Allow cancel cast animation by light or heavy attacks or another skill cast

I.e. Liquid Lightning
My sorc raises her hand in the air, then moving down, like trying to pull something from the sky and then finally a lightning pool creates. This is a solid 1 sec long ritual and damage starts only at the end of it.

Other option: press skill and then block
lightning pool creates instantly without any crappy and long animations.
0.3-0.4 sec to 1st damage tick and you still have 0.6 sec window to use LA, until skill's GCD finishes up and allows you to use another skill

Attention, the question: why that skill even has animation? make it optional: if someone like this visual stuff, then he would use it.
If someone not - he would turn off animations and would play without them. Basically, no any skills would have animations and the only pause between them would be internal cooldown.

Hey, ZOS, if you call this as 'feature', then, in respect to your customers and supporting your own words, make it optional.

This is not only just getting rid of boring animations. This is actually increasing your DPS, drastically.

Btw, that loading screen tip says "use LAs in between of skills", not "to cancel it"
Also, why there is no tip with "use block to cancel full animation of our badly designed skills"?

Jhalin · August 2018

All is fine, do not touch it at all

If you seriously think you have to macro to effectively use animation cancelling, you need to L2P

It’s easy to do intentionally by anyone, you can and will do it unintentionally, and it’s necessary for effective combat because it’s a direct result of action priority.

rudimentxb14_ESO · August 2018

All is fine, do not touch it at all

changing things like this is a population killer. Do not go against the grain on this one. It will have a serious negative impact on the game and it's population. I've seen it in other games and it's not pretty.

ResTandRespeC · August 2018

All is fine, do not touch it at all

SilverWF wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

Yes, I know about 'instant', prob you too if only you were able to read just 1st post... if only...

Also, I see no reasons to not allow AC with ANYTHING, as it was suggested in the 1st post

But reading sucks, right?

I wasn’t referring to your initial months old post that got necrod. Rather I’m addressing the current conversation, which with this topic always devolves to how animation cancelling is a bug or exploit or somehow unfair when it is neither of these things.

To address your inital concern about macros tho, macros are not really a thing in this game. Anything a macro can do, a person can do. And the game is too situational and dynamic for a sequence of macros to ever really be effective. The only place where I see macros maybe being applicable is ganking, since if done right you control the whole process from engagement->kill in a gank. Other than that, anyone who has experience playing at a higher level will tell you macros are irrelevant.

Just watched your vid
https://youtu.be/eOUEzQ4k0GE?t=6s
Right from the start all see is abusing lower ping. Have any of you seen any skill used from 0:06 to 0:10? I've seen Dawnbraker and Jabs once.
And this is at your side! At your side it is barely visible already! What enemies have seen there? Do you really want to know? Nothing.

You can not post unneeded walls of text here, just make it shorter: "I wanna keep my advantage - that's it"

Lol

ResTandRespeC · August 2018

All is fine, do not touch it at all

SilverWF wrote: »

I.e. Liquid Lightning
My sorc raises her hand in the air, then moving down, like trying to pull something from the sky and then finally a lightning pool creates. This is a solid 1 sec long ritual and damage starts only at the end of it.

Other option: press skill and then block
lightning pool creates instantly without any crappy and long animations.
0.3-0.4 sec to 1st damage tick and you still have 0.6 sec window to use LA, until skill's GCD finishes up and allows you to use another skill

This isn't true. Even if you do block cancel you can't get a light attack off any earlier then you could of by just going LA>skill>LA. You used to be able to do what you described, way back when there wasn't a GCD. You get the same damage from LA>skill>block>LA as you do from LA>skill>LA as the remaining milliseconds of animation after the GCD are ignored by any skill or LA. The only thing it does is make is hit the target faster. So lets say your in vMA and want to kill a target faster with forcepulse. If you block cancel the damage will hit the target faster.

jcm2606 · August 2018

All is fine, do not touch it at all

SilverWF wrote: »

Why video with that guy popped here? How does it proves a point that this is NOT a bad game design.
At 3th page I am repeating that this is bad game design. 'Design' ~= 'bug'
Please, hand up who cant understand that.

jcm2606 wrote: »

Again, if animation cancelling were removed, you'd want it added back in the moment you feel how sluggish the combat system is. Go into any decently hard veteran dungeon and wait for the whole animation of every action to complete before starting another. Wait for your character to return to the idle pose. Do that, then maybe we can talk. Until then, you have no idea what you're talking about, and if you had your way, you would ruin the game for everybody.

Again? Wow
Seriously, how many time surrounding you ppl usually talking to you the same things in hope you'll finally get them?
Personally me, again, in 100th time, specially for you, supporting the idea allowing AC with anything. It's even literally above any of my posts - poll option.

But you still talking to me, that removing AC is bad. Are you OK?

You're advocating the removal of bash, and hence block cancelling. I have pointed out several times now that bash/block cancelling alone is central to this game's combat system, and that removing bash/block cancelling would ruin the game for everybody. What part of that don't you understand?

Every part of animation cancelling is there for a reason, and is there to allow you to perform those actions reliably. I'm going to say this one last time. Run through a decently hard veteran dungeon, when you want to use an action, wait for the entire animation of the previous action to finish. Want to block? Wait for your character to return to the idle pose. Want to hit a heal to stay alive? Wait for your character to return to the idle pose. Want to roll out of the way of an attack? Wait for your character to return to the idle pose.

Until you do this, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You have absolutely no idea why animation cancelling is a thing in the first place. And for this reason, Zenimax will never take your advice, because they know your advice will turn the quick and fluid combat system we have now into a sluggish and clunky mess, ruining the game for everybody.

/thread

DocFrost72 · August 2018

SilverWF wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

You clearly have no idea what you are discussing if you think there is a point to forcing animations after you are hit.

Point of advice: Arya knows a *lot* more about the game than most. Prolly more than I ever will regarding pvp. It's not smart to debate someone who knows more than you do.

Man, you clearly have no idea about that text, that you even quoted - you just can't read.

Point of advice: read several times before post.

Side note: I never said about "forcing animations after you are hit"

You have shown yourself from the best side here

Now that I have your attention (since you ignored my post and @tag)

Do you know that when I press the button for an instant cast ability the animation plays after the damage?

Glad I got under your skin, it means it's an invested conversation and will get an answer this time

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · August 2018

Remove possibility to block or swap panels until your character has stopped animation

Man this post was funny then and it’s still funny now. Yes this is a part of the game that’s not going to I personally think it should but that’s not going to happen. But guys come on don’t act like we all forget when ZoS was going to “fix” this and ended up giving up and using the age old truth of you can’t beat em join em.

D0PAMINE · August 2018

SilverWF wrote: »

I.e. Liquid Lightning
My sorc raises her hand in the air, then moving down, like trying to pull something from the sky and then finally a lightning pool creates. This is a solid 1 sec long ritual and damage starts only at the end of it.

Other option: press skill and then block
lightning pool creates instantly without any crappy and long animations.
0.3-0.4 sec to 1st damage tick and you still have 0.6 sec window to use LA, until skill's GCD finishes up and allows you to use another skill

Attention, the question: why that skill even has animation? make it optional: if someone like this visual stuff, then he would use it.
If someone not - he would turn off animations and would play without them. Basically, no any skills would have animations and the only pause between them would be internal cooldown.

Hey, ZOS, if you call this as 'feature', then, in respect to your customers and supporting your own words, make it optional.

This is not only just getting rid of boring animations. This is actually increasing your DPS, drastically.

Btw, that loading screen tip says "use LAs in between of skills", not "to cancel it"
Also, why there is no tip with "use block to cancel full animation of our badly designed skills"?

Wander into a tough situation? Fleeing is a perfectly valid battle tactic. Find or craft better gear, level up a bit more and come back to fight another day.

Troneon · August 2018

Remove possibility to block or swap panels until your character has stopped animation

Reverb wrote: »

Mastery404 wrote: »

Sn1per0 wrote: »

You mean unintended mechanic. Does not change the fact that they NOW say it is a mechanic.

Source, please?

A 2015 ESO live, where Wrobel acknowledged they "are embracing it. It's a part of the game, and we want people to be doing it". His words. (Edit to embed link)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThZtwhYkKSs

Oh Wrobel said it. Make sense now....

To be honest if ZOS did touch it they would probably just screw up the game even more and it would still not be fixed...

Uviryth · August 2018

I dont understand why we even have animatons. Why not remove all this annoyances and just make a popup-list of what kind of damage we want to do. Then a button pops up and we click it as fast as we can. After that they can make a summary how the fight went. Voila, combat in ESO in a nutshell.

Seriously, this games combat is a joke in the mmo-community.

AnviOfVai · August 2018

Remove possibility to block or swap panels until your character has stopped animation

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Animation canceling looks trashy though not gonna lie.

I agree, I always think of this gif when I do it, or see others doing it.

nnargun · August 2018

All is fine, do not touch it at all

Uviryth wrote: »

I dont understand why we even have animatons. Why not remove all this annoyances and just make a popup-list of what kind of damage we want to do. Then a button pops up and we click it as fast as we can. After that they can make a summary how the fight went. Voila, combat in ESO in a nutshell.

Seriously, this games combat is a joke in the mmo-community.

Nice try.

adeptusminor · August 2018

All is fine, do not touch it at all

Can we make it so all casting requires the proper reagements to be equipped in each hand on the character, squiggly lines drawn on the ground using the mouse or controller, and the correct incantations of the magic words spoken into a microphone done before each spell fires off? If any of these are done even slightly incorrectly, the magic doesn't cast or even could backfire, causing damage to our own character. That would really help my immersion, thanks in advance.

ZOS_Ragnar · August 2018

We have removed several posts that were baiting and overly hostile. Please keep in mind that even if someone's opinion differs from your own that does not give you the right to insult them. Please ensure that you keep this discussion civil.

In regards to this thread being a necro, we felt it was more appropriate to leave it open instead of having a new thread created on this topic. Please keep in mind when replying to someone's post that it may have posted it over a year ago.