[ZOS] Rework or remove cancel casting

Doctordarkspawn

All is fine, do not touch it at all

ZOS has since based alot of their DPS design around it. Removing it would quite litterally require an almost total overhaul of their game.

Juhasow

All is fine, do not touch it at all

Hrolfkel wrote: »

What funny is AC was a bug that ZOS couldn't figure out how to fix so they decided to call it a mechanic

Lol this conspiracy theory again. Do You also belive Earth is flat ?

Facefister

Sn1per0 wrote: »

Vipstaakki wrote: »

animation cancelling is a bug. Stop abusing it.

You call it a bug, yet ZoS calls it a mechanic.

Wonder who is right here.

ZoS can't fix it so they sell it as a "feature".

iCaliban

Facefister wrote: »

Sn1per0 wrote: »

Vipstaakki wrote: »

animation cancelling is a bug. Stop abusing it.

You call it a bug, yet ZoS calls it a mechanic.

Wonder who is right here.

ZoS can't fix it so they sell it as a "feature".

Why in the world would you want to fix it? Animation cancelling makes combat far smoother and more responsive than it would be otherwise.

SilverWF

Allow cancel cast animation by light or heavy attacks or another skill cast

Wonder, why ppl can't read?

iCaliban wrote: »

Why in the world would you want to fix it? Animation cancelling makes combat far smoother and more responsive than it would be otherwise.

So allow to cancel animations with anything else - is it so hard to read it in the 1st post?

Lord_Wrath

Remove possibility to block or swap panels until your character has stopped animation

I love the combat in this game. Aint no 'pause and eat 50 cheese wheels, then continue hacking and slashing', no, this game has a combat system that has you act and react based off visual ques that most skills have. When you animation cancel and kill someone with one visual sword swing but have 5 skills in your death recap thats just BS. Anyone who has played thoroughly for years can tell you this game has lost tons of newbies because they think the game is broken. What new player would get killed by that and think "this is fair"? They dont know any better unless another player tells them.

The fun fights are the fights that arent over in 2 seconds. The ones crying "L2P" have no argument, they just want to keep winning cheap. I want to see who the better player is.

Shad0wfire99

All is fine, do not touch it at all

Lord_Wrath wrote: »

I love the combat in this game. Aint no 'pause and eat 50 cheese wheels, then continue hacking and slashing', no, this game has a combat system that has you act and react based off visual ques that most skills have. When you animation cancel and kill someone with one visual sword swing but have 5 skills in your death recap thats just BS. Anyone who has played thoroughly for years can tell you this game has lost tons of newbies because they think the game is broken. What new player would get killed by that and think "this is fair"? They dont know any better unless another player tells them.

The fun fights are the fights that arent over in 2 seconds. The ones crying "L2P" have no argument, they just want to keep winning cheap. I want to see who the better player is.

The better players learn to animation cancel, instead of crying about it on the forums.

BuddyAces

SilverWF wrote: »

Wonder, why ppl can't read?

iCaliban wrote: »

Why in the world would you want to fix it? Animation cancelling makes combat far smoother and more responsive than it would be otherwise.

So allow to cancel animations with anything else - is it so hard to read it in the 1st post?

Why does animation cancelling bother some folks so much? It's not hard. Everyone can do it. Takes maybe 20 mins at best to learn it even half assed.

OrphanHelgen

All is fine, do not touch it at all

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Idle games is for mobile phones

ESO and mobile games have a lot in common when it comes to monetization and cash store, whats worse is that mmo players and mobile gamers have a lot in common aswell, they both like to collect and own useless, shiny, things.

Yes and it is a lot of useless and shiny things in eso already as well. It's raining motifs and crown items lately, so that's why I say leave the small non idle collective things we have left in this game, which is somehow skills during combat. I think animation cancel swap is way better then the wrecking blow spam that was meta a while back.

SilverWF

Allow cancel cast animation by light or heavy attacks or another skill cast

BuddyAces wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

Wonder, why ppl can't read?

iCaliban wrote: »

Why in the world would you want to fix it? Animation cancelling makes combat far smoother and more responsive than it would be otherwise.

So allow to cancel animations with anything else - is it so hard to read it in the 1st post?

Why does animation cancelling bother some folks so much? It's not hard. Everyone can do it. Takes maybe 20 mins at best to learn it even half assed.

Why does my request to animation cancelling with anything bother some folks so much? It's not affects you in the any way.

GarnetFire17

Well, if the are going to continue to embrace it as a mechanic the can certainly improve it and make it less abuseable. I see no reason why it can just be limited to a few abilities that can be ani-canceled. None of the listed options seems right to me. The horse isn't quite as dead as some want it to be.

BuddyAces

SilverWF wrote: »

BuddyAces wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

Wonder, why ppl can't read?

iCaliban wrote: »

Why in the world would you want to fix it? Animation cancelling makes combat far smoother and more responsive than it would be otherwise.

So allow to cancel animations with anything else - is it so hard to read it in the 1st post?

Why does animation cancelling bother some folks so much? It's not hard. Everyone can do it. Takes maybe 20 mins at best to learn it even half assed.

Why does my request to animation cancelling with anything bother some folks so much? It's not affects you in the any way.

Doesn't bother me cuz I know it won't happen. Why does it bother you when it's as simple as pushing one key down?

Juhasow

All is fine, do not touch it at all

Facefister wrote: »

Sn1per0 wrote: »

Vipstaakki wrote: »

animation cancelling is a bug. Stop abusing it.

You call it a bug, yet ZoS calls it a mechanic.

Wonder who is right here.

ZoS can't fix it so they sell it as a "feature".

Any reliable source of information saying that they couldnt fix it ? Or it's just Your imaginary theory You want to belive ?

Wifeaggro13

Remove possibility to block or swap panels until your character has stopped animation

SilverWF wrote: »

There is well known "mechanic" called as "cancel casting".
You can do it by: block (RMB) or swapping panels. And in the most cases skill work properly even if it takes 0,1 sec to your character to actually "cast" that skill.
Sure, if skill has cast time "instant". But skills are not instant - they all have some animation time, that cannot be interrupted by anything else (i.e. another skill cast), but only block or swap panels.
This gives unfair advantage to macro users. Sure, it can be done by hands, but much better to set a macro.
I'm not planning to discuss macro here, I have Logitech G15 keyboard and A4-Tech mouse. It is not a problem at all.

So, what I suggest (one of it):
1. Remove possibility to block or swap panels until your character has stopped animation. Probably, it would affect casting while blocking too.
2. Allow cancel cast animation by light or heavy attacks or another skill cast, at the same time, adding to all skills short noninterruptable timeout, that would affect blocking and swapping too.
3. All is fine, do not touch it at all

the problem is now PVE DPS requires this mechanic. For the life of me i dont know why ZOS let this ride so long that they had to call it a feature. its not long now ZOS will claim server instability is a feature of the game. would be suprised if they started putting server stability potions in crown crates.

Seri

Lord_Wrath wrote: »

I love the combat in this game. Aint no 'pause and eat 50 cheese wheels, then continue hacking and slashing', no, this game has a combat system that has you act and react based off visual ques that most skills have. When you animation cancel and kill someone with one visual sword swing but have 5 skills in your death recap thats just BS. Anyone who has played thoroughly for years can tell you this game has lost tons of newbies because they think the game is broken. What new player would get killed by that and think "this is fair"? They dont know any better unless another player tells them.

Except 5 skills in one visual sword swing is broken and isn't permitted by the game client without external modification. Macros and addons can not bypass the GCD on skill casting. Anything 'appearance' of multiple things hitting is either lag induced (eg, attacker's client sends ~1 skill per second, and somewhere between there, getting to ZOS servers, and then travelling on to the recipient's client, those network messages lag) or misunderstanding (eg, dawnbreaker and meteor, the dot and initial hit appear separately on the recap, certain skills may have travel time such as the 'slow' frost reach or snipe allowing faster travelling projectiles to hit simultaneously, delayed action eg curse or the warden shalks, or weapon enchant/poison proc, or possible armor set procs).

Juhasow

All is fine, do not touch it at all

I would really like to know how many of people that are agaisnt animation cancelling actually understand what this means and how many of them knows about global cooldowns , light attack weaving etc.

For me it looks like some people think You can just press light atack then skill and if you'll press block You'll isntantly be able to do it again which is completly not how it works.

SilverWF

Allow cancel cast animation by light or heavy attacks or another skill cast

Reminded me some pretty fresh case



I literally wasn't able to do anything while this

0,4-0,5 sec to cast 3 separate skills: light attack, bash and a skill with a perfect 1,1 sec pause between another cycle
Tell me more about GCD, no macrosing and whatever stuff

SilverWF

Allow cancel cast animation by light or heavy attacks or another skill cast

More that this: current animation cancelling does NOT allows to assaulted player get proper visual clues of his enemy actions.

Tell me more about good game design.

Why on Earth ZOS trying to bring such number of visualization in the game? Heck, convert it to WOW then, give full access in the API to enemy buffs/debuffs and actions, like skill cast.

Sparr0w

All is fine, do not touch it at all

SilverWF wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

If you can't ani cancel then reactive combat will die.

In PVE nothing, literally nothing scary would happened
In PVP... well, with their 'perfect' netcode, it is dead already.

There's plenty of scenarios in PvE where if you couldn't dodge or cancel mid skill you'd be dead

DivineFirstYOLO

All is fine, do not touch it at all

SilverWF wrote: »

Reminded me some pretty fresh case



I literally wasn't able to do anything while this

0,4-0,5 sec to cast 3 separate skills: light attack, bash and a skill with a perfect 1,1 sec pause between another cycle
Tell me more about GCD, no macrosing and whatever stuff

This player casted heroic slash and then around 1 second later executioner with a bash, the rest are DoTs. Where is the problem?

SilverWF

Allow cancel cast animation by light or heavy attacks or another skill cast

DivineFirstYOLO wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

Reminded me some pretty fresh case



I literally wasn't able to do anything while this

0,4-0,5 sec to cast 3 separate skills: light attack, bash and a skill with a perfect 1,1 sec pause between another cycle
Tell me more about GCD, no macrosing and whatever stuff

This player casted heroic slash and then around 1 second later executioner with a bash, the rest are DoTs. Where is the problem?

LA, Claw (that was 1st impact), Bash - LA, Slash, Bash - LA, Execut, Bash

Hammy01

RT_Frank wrote: »

Even though I'm on console, so macros aren't really a problem here, I can definitely see this being annoying if I were on PC and not using macros. I refuse to join the "if it's not a problem on my system, then it's not a problem" boat. I feel for you PC players.

Actually Macro controllers for Consoles are a thing. I have no idea how good they are but they are out there. Just youtube CronusMax plug and play.

I would also think that being able to program a skill / bar swap to one button or skill / block to one button would be an advantage over someone trying to do this by hand.

Back on topic though.. My biggest issue with Ani-canceling is that it is not equal across all classes and builds and if it is going to be a feature then all skills need to be ani-canceled because some classes and builds have skills with hard cast times and channels.

Plus could you imagine how much the PvE players would scream if bosses could ani-cancel skills? Players depend on audio and visual queues from bosses to know when to block / dodge or interrupt and if bosses could ani-cancel to the point those audio and visual queues were no longer there players would be screaming all over the forums. Well that is what happens in PvP against some players because they have ani-canceling down to an exact science in that you won't see anything before you are dead......maybe even a little too perfect !

ZOS_JesC

Greetings, we've removed several baiting comments. Please remember to keep comments civil and on topic. Thank you.

Crafts_Many_Boxes

Argument is the same as it's always been. Camp A says that it's an exploit that ZOS didn't feel like fixing, camp B says that it's a feature.

What I've never understood though is the whole "game would be too slow" argument. Like, a 1s GCD isn't really all that slow. I feel like the vast majority of the gaming community as a whole is fine with the idea of that pace, the players who actually like it faster are a vocal minority just trying to keep their advantage because I guess they all live in the speed force or something.

It's true that the game is built around cancelling now though. If there were a proper 1s GCD in place, where it was literally 1 action per second, then weaving would become a lot slower and dps would go down by a good bit. I'm sure most content would still be very much complete-able, but vet trials would definitely have to be re-tuned. In the long run, I think it would be worth it, but ZOS isn't about to put so much time into something that the casuals don't notice and anyone who sticks around long enough to care will probably stay for other reasons.

Hammy01

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

A 2015 ESO live, where Wrobel acknowledged they "are embracing it. It's a part of the game, and we want people to be doing it"

Nah, it sounds as a bad excuse of impossibility to fix it.
"we want people to be doing it" - doing what? Macro using?
Also, it is going against any logic: if something can be interrupted by block (basically: pressing a button), why it can not be interrupted by another button press?

And again, there can be some urgent situation where you need to stop casting and block - it's OK. But skill must not be used here too.
And, if ZOS are happy with it - why skill animations are exists here at all?

It is, however ZOS gave all ani-cancel users to include macro users their blessings. So you either abuse the hell out of it because ZOS says it's ok. Or you just keep getting wrecked by.

If you let you morals get in the way. Then you are just going to have a miserable experience with this game. My recommendation is for ZOS to just openly allow macros. Since it's obvious that's what most PvPers are doing. Why not just make it fair and legal for all?

Where is the evidence that Zos has given us their blessing to use macros? Not that it even matters because there is no way Zos would ever know or could prove someone was using a macro.

DuskMarine

All is fine, do not touch it at all

its perfectly fine and has been perfectly fine forever leave it alone

Seri

SilverWF wrote: »

I literally wasn't able to do anything while this

0,4-0,5 sec to cast 3 separate skills: light attack, bash and a skill with a perfect 1,1 sec pause between another cycle
Tell me more about GCD, no macrosing and whatever stuff

SilverWF wrote: »

There is well known "mechanic" called as "cancel casting".
You can do it by: block (RMB) or swapping panels. And in the most cases skill work properly even if it takes 0,1 sec to your character to actually "cast" that skill.
[...]
I'm not planning to discuss macro here

GCD only allows one pass through the ability 'priority' tree... light/heavy -> skill -> block/bash. The conversation started arguing about block or barswap cancelling of animations. Neither of those cancels would change what you experienced.

Hammy01 wrote: »

Plus could you imagine how much the PvE players would scream if bosses could ani-cancel skills? Players depend on audio and visual queues from bosses to know when to block / dodge or interrupt and if bosses could ani-cancel to the point those audio and visual queues were no longer there players would be screaming all over the forums.

Animations in PvE are sometimes that wonky already that myself and guild members have joked the bosses animation-cancel for the last few months - both through a combination of the animations glitching out or that the knockdown or stuns from many (blockable) heavies appear to hit me a good half second (or more) before the actual 'strike'.

SilverWF

Allow cancel cast animation by light or heavy attacks or another skill cast

Hammy01 wrote: »

Where is the evidence that Zos has given us their blessing to use macros? Not that it even matters because there is no way Zos would ever know or could prove someone was using a macro.

Actually, they could - by checking timings. But who would want to dig out terabytes of combat logs?

amir412

Juhasow wrote: »

It takes less time to learn animation cancelling then creating thread and posting how bad AC is.

Shantu

DivineFirstYOLO wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

Reminded me some pretty fresh case



I literally wasn't able to do anything while this

0,4-0,5 sec to cast 3 separate skills: light attack, bash and a skill with a perfect 1,1 sec pause between another cycle
Tell me more about GCD, no macrosing and whatever stuff

This player casted heroic slash and then around 1 second later executioner with a bash, the rest are DoTs. Where is the problem?

Uhm...light attack, Executioner, Bash, and Venomous Claw are all executed from 8.529 to 8.860. That's 4 attacks in 1/3 of a second.

While I use animation cancellation, I wish they would get rid of it. This is a good example of why it's absurd. It's a bug and for ZOS to embrace it is pretty lame.