SilverWF wrote: »

I like when "pro" players (not pro in fact) protecting "weaving" or talking about something, that has nothing to do with the initial post.
If you just can't read - are you sure, that you are 'pro'? Lol, not.

Please, point me where I am fighting against 'weaving'? If you can't - then, you are ignorants, sorry.

I am talking about animation cancellation, when skill does NOT visually playing at all. And I am suggesting (one of options) to allow AC with any skill or attack, as long as it became a 'feature'. How does it would affect your lovely weaving? Right - nohow. WTF you are arguing here then?

AC ruins PVP experience completely, when victim has no clues about his enemy actions. Completely has no clues, because skills and attacks becomes 'invisible' for him! (That's why last screenshot here - just a visual example for some slow and low visitors). Not enemy by himself, but his actions.

Was it intended by ZOS? Not. Otherwise why skills has their unique visuals and not just all the same "weapon smashing"? Answer is obvious, right? For me - yes.

And not, this is not the same as attacking from stealth. Stealth was intended and designed like that, and you can not be 100% time in the stealth while attacking at the same time.

Lol, I feel myself like a teacher who explan '2+2' for low school kids

Weaving is animation cancelling. When you light attack weave, you are cancelling the recovery portion of the light attack animation with the skill. This is the literal definition of animation cancelling: to cancel the animation of one action with another. So yes, you are talking about weaving.

There are visual cues to the action that aren't the character animation in itself. I just tested in-game with two friends, both against a target dummy (out of PVP combat) and against one of them (in PVP combat), and they can still see the slash effect of the base morph of Venomous Claw, Searing Strike. I doubt morphing would do much, so you absolutely can see the visual cue of Venomous Claw. Heroic Slash I tested myself against a target dummy, and while it was a much quicker animation which does make it harder to notice, you can notice it. A bunch of sparks pop out of your target when the attack connects. Given the fact that I also tested Searing Strike against a target dummy solo, and I had the exact same results as with my two friends, it's a fair assumption that Heroic Slash is the same. So there absolutely is visual cues to skills, you just need to know how to spot them.

Even without visual cues, though, there are other ways to tell you've been hit with skills. The main part of Venomous Claw is the dot, which will show up as a status effect in your buffs/debuffs list, which you should have given it is now a base game feature, but even then you have addons so S'rendarr is a much better choice.

And yes, it was absolutely intended by Zenimax. The current state of blocking in all content relies on animation cancelling to be done reliably. Same with roll dodging, same with bar swapping (go into veteran Maelstrom and try completing the last stage frantically keeping your heals going without bar swap cancelling), same with light/heavy attacking (some mechanics rely on light/heavy attacking, sometimes you need the resources/ultimate, and it adds more depth to combat). Trust me when I say that even if block cancelling were removed, you would want it added back in the moment you feel how sluggish and unresponsive combat becomes.

Gorilla wrote: »

@ResTandRespeC

Hell yes it's prevalent, and not just on PCs. I can't count the number of times I've seen certain players stack skills in a way that no human could do repetitively. There are even farming guilds here where I live in Manila that will set you up with the process.

The game is broken so we are stuck with ani cancelling, macros, etc. You can argue ad nauseum but it's clear the game is being played contrary to original design.

But, it's the best we have (for consoles) so until there is another, better MMO, my philosophy is to just find fun in it where we can.

For the record I light weave. That's my sin, lol. Well, that and wine, women and song...

No offense to your good senses but a good player does not need a macro. A bad player will screw it up regardless of how good someone sets up the macros. When a macro screws up it is so obvious and funny.

Also the game has not adapted to AC. AC has been around since the beginning of the game. It is not broken. Just merely the result of the requirement that we need to be able to block at any given moment in this game. The GCD controls the minimum time required per skill and no macro or skilled player can bypass the GCD.

Gorilla wrote: »

They have adapted the content to ani cancelling. It was not originally intended as a feature to be used by all to max dps

While they didn't anticipate that players would learn to use it to squeeze out some extra DPS, they absolutely intended for players to use it to some extent. Hell, you even use it and you don't even realise it! 9 out of 10 times when you block an incoming attack, you've just animation cancelled!

I've said this 3 or 4 times now. Animation cancelling, or rather the priority system which leads to animation cancelling, is an intended gameplay mechanic. It is a feature of the combat system that allows players to responsively and reliably use defensive actions when necessary. Unlike other MMO's, where blocking and dodging are automated based on a percent chance to block/dodge an attack, ESO requires you to actively block or dodge the attack.

Look at any veteran dungeon, specifically the "2" dungeons where there are mechanics, and you can see this. Any sort of one shot mechanic relies on animation cancelling in order for the player to actually block or dodge the attack. Imagine if you had a one shot AOE attack a boss just started winding up, but you were in the middle of casting Dizzying Swing or Flurry or Biting Jabs. You would naturally hit the roll dodge button and roll backwards out of the AOE, right? Well that relies on roll dodge being a higher priority, hence taking precedence over the skill, cancelling the skill in order to perform the roll dodge. If animation cancelling, or rather the priority system, were to be removed, you would not be able to roll dodge, and hence you would likely die to an attack that you didn't necessarily know was coming.

Want another example? The final boss of Hel Ra Citadel. In execute phase, he has a mechanic where he raises his sword in the air and shoots balls of light out to all players. Even on normal, you must block the attack, otherwise you'll be two-shot. Naturally you'd just block, right? Whelp, again, that relies on animation cancelling in order to perform reliably. What if somebody is stuck in a channeled ability, say Templar's Radiant Destruction? If the priority system wasn't in place, you wouldn't be able to attack, and hence you'd die.

Another? Veteran Maelstrom Arena, specifically stages 5 onwards. This can get so hectic that every single second counts. You need to be on top of everything to survive, especially in later stages. What if you need to recast Vigor, as it has fallen off? Well, bar swap cancelling is more or less mandatory here, especially if you were casting skills that have awkward animations, such as Caltrops, Endless Hail (to an extent), or any skill that is either channeled or has a cast time.

Gorilla wrote: »

stack burst in pvp without signalling.

I showed in my last comment that there are visual cues to skills, even when they're cancelled in such a way that it goes: LA -> Skill -> Bash. Venomous Claw still showed the slash effect, and Heroic Slash still showed the spark effect as the shield connected with the target. So yes, there is signalling, you just need to know what you're watching for.

And it doesn't allow you to stack burst. The GCD is still in effect. You can only ever cast one ability per second, no amount of animation cancelling will stop that. Bash cancelling basically deals next to no damage, so bash cancelling is irrelevant. And light attack weaving does deal a good amount of damage, but even if they didn't light attack weave, the skill would still hit just as hard (with the exception of Imbue Weapon, which is useless if it isn't used alongside weaving). Especially in the case of the OP. What killed him wasn't the skills, but all the dot's.

Gorilla wrote: »

It was viewed as an unintended consequence that they eventually embraced since they couldn't repair game design.

What they meant was they couldn't repair it without drastically changing how the combat system feels. Again, I can guarantee if animation cancelling were removed, you would want it added back in immediately after the patch went live.

I'm not a fan of how animation cancelling is used by players and how it's become a necessity, but what you're suggesting would make the game unplayable. Animation cancelling by itself is not a bug, it's what keeps the game responsive. If you want to know what an action MMO without animation cancelling feels like, go try Tera, where your char can't move out of a red zone because you're locked in an animation during which you can't move because it involves a recoil for your gun or something like that. That would be horrible for ESO.

What would however be good for the game is if light attacks and skills were put on the same global cooldown, and the skills and sets requiring light attack weaving were adjusted accordingly. Maybe put the bar swap on the same GCD too to put people with high latency at a smaller disadvantage and make people treat a bar swap like drawing an actual separate weapon rather than an extension of the front bar. But block cancelling and dodge roll cancelling must stay, it's what makes this game what it is, a fast-paced action MMO.

Another thing that should happen in ESO is shortening all long skill animations to the length of the GCD so that people who can't or don't know how to animation cancel them aren't at such a big disadvantage.

SilverWF wrote: »

There is well known "mechanic" called as "cancel casting".
You can do it by: block (RMB) or swapping panels. And in the most cases skill work properly even if it takes 0,1 sec to your character to actually "cast" that skill.
Sure, if skill has cast time "instant". But skills are not instant - they all have some animation time, that cannot be interrupted by anything else (i.e. another skill cast), but only block or swap panels.
This gives unfair advantage to macro users. Sure, it can be done by hands, but much better to set a macro.
I'm not planning to discuss macro here, I have Logitech G15 keyboard and A4-Tech mouse. It is not a problem at all.

So, what I suggest (one of it):
1. Remove possibility to block or swap panels until your character has stopped animation. Probably, it would affect casting while blocking too.
2. Allow cancel cast animation by light or heavy attacks or another skill cast, at the same time, adding to all skills short noninterruptable timeout, that would affect blocking and swapping too.
3. All is fine, do not touch it at all

It is actually called animation canceling.

The reason it exists is so we can block when needed so it is clear Zos will not remove our ability to block.

GCD must pass for a skill to fire anyhow and this is the control


Zos has tweaked the ability to animation cancel a bit since the game launched but it is clear it will remain in the game. I am merely pointing out the most valid reason why and the control in the game since based on the OP not everyone understands.

SilverWF wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

I like when "pro" players (not pro in fact) protecting "weaving" or talking about something, that has nothing to do with the initial post.
If you just can't read - are you sure, that you are 'pro'? Lol, not.

Please, point me where I am fighting against 'weaving'? If you can't - then, you are ignorants, sorry.

I am talking about animation cancellation, when skill does NOT visually playing at all. And I am suggesting (one of options) to allow AC with any skill or attack, as long as it became a 'feature'. How does it would affect your lovely weaving? Right - nohow. WTF you are arguing here then?

AC ruins PVP experience completely, when victim has no clues about his enemy actions. Completely has no clues, because skills and attacks becomes 'invisible' for him! (That's why last screenshot here - just a visual example for some slow and low visitors). Not enemy by himself, but his actions.

Was it intended by ZOS? Not. Otherwise why skills has their unique visuals and not just all the same "weapon smashing"? Answer is obvious, right? For me - yes.

And not, this is not the same as attacking from stealth. Stealth was intended and designed like that, and you can not be 100% time in the stealth while attacking at the same time.

Lol, I feel myself like a teacher who explan '2+2' for low school kids

Weaving is animation cancelling. When you light attack weave, you are cancelling the recovery portion of the light attack animation with the skill. This is the literal definition of animation cancelling: to cancel the animation of one action with another. So yes, you are talking about weaving.

There are visual cues to the action that aren't the character animation in itself. I just tested in-game with two friends, both against a target dummy (out of PVP combat) and against one of them (in PVP combat), and they can still see the slash effect of the base morph of Venomous Claw, Searing Strike. I doubt morphing would do much, so you absolutely can see the visual cue of Venomous Claw. Heroic Slash I tested myself against a target dummy, and while it was a much quicker animation which does make it harder to notice, you can notice it. A bunch of sparks pop out of your target when the attack connects. Given the fact that I also tested Searing Strike against a target dummy solo, and I had the exact same results as with my two friends, it's a fair assumption that Heroic Slash is the same. So there absolutely is visual cues to skills, you just need to know how to spot them.

Even without visual cues, though, there are other ways to tell you've been hit with skills. The main part of Venomous Claw is the dot, which will show up as a status effect in your buffs/debuffs list, which you should have given it is now a base game feature, but even then you have addons so S'rendarr is a much better choice.

And yes, it was absolutely intended by Zenimax. The current state of blocking in all content relies on animation cancelling to be done reliably. Same with roll dodging, same with bar swapping (go into veteran Maelstrom and try completing the last stage frantically keeping your heals going without bar swap cancelling), same with light/heavy attacking (some mechanics rely on light/heavy attacking, sometimes you need the resources/ultimate, and it adds more depth to combat). Trust me when I say that even if block cancelling were removed, you would want it added back in the moment you feel how sluggish and unresponsive combat becomes.

When ZOS said it wasn't intended - you still say it was. Okay

Zos never said AC was intended. They did say it was unintended but now an official part of the game.

They understood this game required a very active means to avoid and mitigate damage and being able to block and move appropriately is a requirement in this game. In the design that ensued we were able to AC.

In the end Zos, like many of us, realized AC was not a bad thing for the game but permitted a more fluid and robust combat system.

In other words, AC is here to stay.

And do you have ANY idea on how much of an affect thatll have in PvP?
That will LITERALLY mean the difference of life or death in PvP...
Especially for classes that need to swap bars really fast to cast shields, vigor, rally whatever and swap back to throw in dmg...

[snip]

[edited to remove inappropriate content]