[ZOS] Rework or remove cancel casting

SilverWF

Allow cancel cast animation by light or heavy attacks or another skill cast

Seri wrote: »

GCD only allows one pass through the ability 'priority' tree... light/heavy -> skill -> block/bash. The conversation started arguing about block or barswap cancelling of animations. Neither of those cancels would change what you experienced.

FYI GCD affects skills only.
Bash has his own cooldown, that is very short, prob 0.5 sec only
LAs too, that is depends on weapon, afaik Bow has lowest one with 0.6-0.7 sec

And if I remember well, there is priority tree (from highest to lowest):
Dodge roll
Block/Bash
Weapon swap (or prob it equal to block)
Abilities
Light and Heavy attacks

You can interrupt lower with higher and can't - higher with lower.
In the example above, all I've seen was a guy, pushing his shield on me
Perfect combat clues the game gave to me

Shad0wfire99

All is fine, do not touch it at all

Hammy01 wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

A 2015 ESO live, where Wrobel acknowledged they "are embracing it. It's a part of the game, and we want people to be doing it"

Nah, it sounds as a bad excuse of impossibility to fix it.
"we want people to be doing it" - doing what? Macro using?
Also, it is going against any logic: if something can be interrupted by block (basically: pressing a button), why it can not be interrupted by another button press?

And again, there can be some urgent situation where you need to stop casting and block - it's OK. But skill must not be used here too.
And, if ZOS are happy with it - why skill animations are exists here at all?

It is, however ZOS gave all ani-cancel users to include macro users their blessings. So you either abuse the hell out of it because ZOS says it's ok. Or you just keep getting wrecked by.

If you let you morals get in the way. Then you are just going to have a miserable experience with this game. My recommendation is for ZOS to just openly allow macros. Since it's obvious that's what most PvPers are doing. Why not just make it fair and legal for all?

Where is the evidence that Zos has given us their blessing to use macros? Not that it even matters because there is no way Zos would ever know or could prove someone was using a macro.

People just say stuff. So, it must be true.

DocFrost72

I honestly can't believe the necro was allowed. Alright then xD

Light attack weaving is supported in game and some current vet trial hm mechanics revolve around it for dps checks. At least in pve, light attack weaving is necessary. Do you agree?

Also the argument that animation canceling doesn't allow you to react to moves always confused me. When I press my 1 key to hit you with surprise attack, the damage is calculated and removed from your health before the animation fires. This is with absolutely zero animation canceling. Even if zos, tomorrow, headed your request you would be functionally no better off at all. You would be around .4-.6 seconds behind the damage done to you (my rough guess at most animation frame times).

Is this new information to you OP?

PS- I am attempting to be entirely neutral in tone, let me know if it comes across another way.

jcm2606

All is fine, do not touch it at all

If you want animation cancelling to be removed, I can guarantee you will want it added back in the second it is removed, if it is removed. Why? Because you won't be able to smoothly and reliably block and roll. I can guarantee you will die many times if animation cancelling is removed, because that is the sole reason it is in the game to begin with.

Zenimax wanted you to actively block and roll away from incoming attacks. That does not work when you're stuck in an animation for a fraction of a second too long, and cannot block a one shot mechanic in time. This is why the priority system and the GCD is the way it is.

Animation cancelling is not a bug. It is not an exploit. It is an intentional gameplay mechanic to allow for responsive combat. Stop beating this long dead horse.

SilverWF

Allow cancel cast animation by light or heavy attacks or another skill cast

jcm2606 wrote: »

Animation cancelling is not a bug. It is not an exploit. It is an intentional gameplay mechanic to allow for responsive combat. Stop beating this long dead horse.

Have you read even last page? Lol

SilverWF wrote: »

In the example above, all I've seen was a guy, pushing his shield on me
Perfect combat clues the game gave to me

jcm2606

All is fine, do not touch it at all

SilverWF wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Animation cancelling is not a bug. It is not an exploit. It is an intentional gameplay mechanic to allow for responsive combat. Stop beating this long dead horse.

Have you read even last page? Lol

SilverWF wrote: »

In the example above, all I've seen was a guy, pushing his shield on me
Perfect combat clues the game gave to me

I did. All I see is well timed animation cancelling, with a crap ton of dot's ticking against you.

Dot's aren't affected by animation cancelling, and tick on their own. So "fixing" animation cancelling won't help at all. I believe Cloak actually protects you from any dot's applied directly to you, so in this case you could have dropped into cloak to both protect yourself and gain the upper hand against your opponent. Magblade's strength is in stealth. Use stealth to your advantage, start using cloak as a defensive measure.

Light attack weaving is so incredibly easy that I can do it comfortably at 400-500 ping, something many players would claim is impossible. It is so incredibly easy to do, so you not doing it is entirely on you.

Bash/block cancelling is a relic of the past. Both forms of animation cancelling don't help the user much, if at all, so this guy is likely doing it out of habit. The only time bash cancelling would be useful is if you were using an interruptable skill, as the bash would interrupt you while casting the skill. Bashing to interrupt is a known counter to interruptable skills, so this, again, is entirely on you.

The only form of animation cancelling relevant here is light attack weaving, which quickens the pace of combat and makes combat more involved. Personally, I think this is a good thing, and if you don't want to do it, you shouldn't be forced into doing it. But in not doing it, naturally you should deal less damage, since you aren't using the combat system to its full potential. But even then, light attack weaving is not what killed you. The excessive amount of dot's is what killed you. And, as I said, you have a counter to that: Cloak. You just need to learn to use it.

As I said, though, animation cancelling is not a bug. It absolutely was and is an intended feature of the game, to allow for the responsive combat system we all know and love. The very fact that Zenimax suggests newer players to weave light attacks, and released a skill that only makes sense while weaving light attacks (Imbue Weapon) only serves to prove this. If even so much as bar swap cancelling were "fixed", let alone block cancelling or weaving, content would become much harder. Especially in PVP, evidently, where every second counts.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

All is fine, do not touch it at all

I really wish they would remove the ability to block cancel for like 48 hours just to prove a point. All the noobs complaining about AC would now be complaining about how they keep dying because they cant react to an attack.

BuddyAces

jcm2606 wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Animation cancelling is not a bug. It is not an exploit. It is an intentional gameplay mechanic to allow for responsive combat. Stop beating this long dead horse.

Have you read even last page? Lol

SilverWF wrote: »

In the example above, all I've seen was a guy, pushing his shield on me
Perfect combat clues the game gave to me

I did. All I see is well timed animation cancelling, with a crap ton of dot's ticking against you.

Dot's aren't affected by animation cancelling, and tick on their own. So "fixing" animation cancelling won't help at all. I believe Cloak actually protects you from any dot's applied directly to you, so in this case you could have dropped into cloak to both protect yourself and gain the upper hand against your opponent. Magblade's strength is in stealth. Use stealth to your advantage, start using cloak as a defensive measure.

Light attack weaving is so incredibly easy that I can do it comfortably at 400-500 ping, something many players would claim is impossible. It is so incredibly easy to do, so you not doing it is entirely on you.

Bash/block cancelling is a relic of the past. Both forms of animation cancelling don't help the user much, if at all, so this guy is likely doing it out of habit. The only time bash cancelling would be useful is if you were using an interruptable skill, as the bash would interrupt you while casting the skill. Bashing to interrupt is a known counter to interruptable skills, so this, again, is entirely on you.

The only form of animation cancelling relevant here is light attack weaving, which quickens the pace of combat and makes combat more involved. Personally, I think this is a good thing, and if you don't want to do it, you shouldn't be forced into doing it. But in not doing it, naturally you should deal less damage, since you aren't using the combat system to its full potential. But even then, light attack weaving is not what killed you. The excessive amount of dot's is what killed you. And, as I said, you have a counter to that: Cloak. You just need to learn to use it.

As I said, though, animation cancelling is not a bug. It absolutely was and is an intended feature of the game, to allow for the responsive combat system we all know and love. The very fact that Zenimax suggests newer players to weave light attacks, and released a skill that only makes sense while weaving light attacks (Imbue Weapon) only serves to prove this. If even so much as bar swap cancelling were "fixed", let alone block cancelling or weaving, content would become much harder. Especially in PVP, evidently, where every second counts.

This is the best response in this thread.

SilverWF

Allow cancel cast animation by light or heavy attacks or another skill cast

jcm2606 wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Animation cancelling is not a bug. It is not an exploit. It is an intentional gameplay mechanic to allow for responsive combat. Stop beating this long dead horse.

Have you read even last page? Lol

SilverWF wrote: »

In the example above, all I've seen was a guy, pushing his shield on me
Perfect combat clues the game gave to me

I did. All I see is well timed animation cancelling, with a crap ton of dot's ticking against you.

Then, take care to read previous too

SilverWF wrote: »

LA, Claw (that was 1st impact), Bash - LA, Slash, Bash - LA, Execut, Bash

pieratsos

All is fine, do not touch it at all

SilverWF wrote: »

Reminded me some pretty fresh case



I literally wasn't able to do anything while this

0,4-0,5 sec to cast 3 separate skills: light attack, bash and a skill with a perfect 1,1 sec pause between another cycle
Tell me more about GCD, no macrosing and whatever stuff

If you are going to post combat logs at least learn how to properly read them.

Only two actually casted skills are shown in the combat log (heroic slash and executioner) and they have at least 1 second in between them so no GCD was bypassed. First venomous claw impact shown in the combat log is a DOT tick not the initial cast of the skill.

He also did not use a macro cause he failed to cast heroic slash in between his light attack and bash at the interval of 6.333s - 6.651s. This is common human error in "intense" animation cancelling situations like the one shown in the combat log.

If you have any more questions about that combat log and what is the thing that actually killed you and you should be complaining about you can just ask.

Ihatenightblades

All is fine, do not touch it at all

Get good and l2p. Its super easy with hands. Practice maybe?

SilverWF

Allow cancel cast animation by light or heavy attacks or another skill cast

pieratsos wrote: »

If you are going to post combat logs at least learn how to properly read them.

Only two actually casted skills are shown in the combat log (heroic slash and executioner) and they have at least 1 second in between them so no GCD was bypassed.

He also did not use a macro cause he failed to cast heroic slash in between his light attack and bash at the interval of 6.333s - 6.651s. This is common human error in "intense" animation cancelling situations like the one shown in the combat log.

If you have any more questions about that combat log and what is the thing that actually killed you and you should be complaining about you can just ask.

Where have you studied? Just curios...

Anyway, how many times I need to repeat that this was 1st impact of Claw? How many times ppl usually repeats you the same thins? I'll do the same then.

Where did I said about GCD bypass? Probable on one of that imagined pages?

Why do you think, that 'macro' - is the FULL rotation and it can't be, i.e. 'LA-bash' spam, that wouldn't break manually fired skills?

Anyway, your attempt to teach me is so cute, appreciate that

BuddyAces

SilverWF wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

If you are going to post combat logs at least learn how to properly read them.

Only two actually casted skills are shown in the combat log (heroic slash and executioner) and they have at least 1 second in between them so no GCD was bypassed.

He also did not use a macro cause he failed to cast heroic slash in between his light attack and bash at the interval of 6.333s - 6.651s. This is common human error in "intense" animation cancelling situations like the one shown in the combat log.

If you have any more questions about that combat log and what is the thing that actually killed you and you should be complaining about you can just ask.

Where have you studied? Just curios...

Anyway, how many times I need to repeat that this was 1st impact of Claw? How many times ppl usually repeats you the same thins? I'll do the same then.

Where did I said about GCD bypass? Probable on one of that imagined pages?

Why do you think, that 'macro' - is the FULL rotation and it can't be, i.e. 'LA-bash' spam, that wouldn't break manually fired skills?

Anyway, your attempt to teach me is so cute, appreciate that

I might have missed what the problem is but are you concerned about animation canceling or macros? To be honest, I'm too lazy to go back and find where you started posting at in this thread. Haven't had enough coffee for the day I'm having =/

SilverWF

Allow cancel cast animation by light or heavy attacks or another skill cast

BuddyAces wrote: »

I might have missed what the problem is but are you concerned about animation canceling or macros? To be honest, I'm too lazy to go back and find where you started posting at in this thread. Haven't had enough coffee for the day I'm having =/

The 1st post to your service

BuddyAces

SilverWF wrote: »

BuddyAces wrote: »

I might have missed what the problem is but are you concerned about animation canceling or macros? To be honest, I'm too lazy to go back and find where you started posting at in this thread. Haven't had enough coffee for the day I'm having =/

The 1st post to your service

Im not being a smart ass but can you point out what the prob is with that log you posted? I don't see anything wonky with it.

DuskMarine

All is fine, do not touch it at all

SilverWF wrote: »

BuddyAces wrote: »

I might have missed what the problem is but are you concerned about animation canceling or macros? To be honest, I'm too lazy to go back and find where you started posting at in this thread. Haven't had enough coffee for the day I'm having =/

The 1st post to your service

@SilverWF honestly animation canceling(in all forms) is a feature of the game. embrace it as itll help your skill level. its a feature in practically almost every game nowadays. so really its something thatll never go away.

DocFrost72

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I honestly can't believe the necro was allowed. Alright then xD

Light attack weaving is supported in game and some current vet trial hm mechanics revolve around it for dps checks. At least in pve, light attack weaving is necessary. Do you agree?

Also the argument that animation canceling doesn't allow you to react to moves always confused me. When I press my 1 key to hit you with surprise attack, the damage is calculated and removed from your health before the animation fires. This is with absolutely zero animation canceling. Even if zos, tomorrow, headed your request you would be functionally no better off at all. You would be around .4-.6 seconds behind the damage done to you (my rough guess at most animation frame times).

Is this new information to you OP?

PS- I am attempting to be entirely neutral in tone, let me know if it comes across another way.

@SilverWF I quoted for visibility. Did you know this information when you made this thread?

Mintaka5

Allow cancel cast animation by light or heavy attacks or another skill cast

Animation cancelling is a lie

Malacthulhu

RT_Frank wrote: »

Even though I'm on console, so macros aren't really a problem here, I can definitely see this being annoying if I were on PC and not using macros. I refuse to join the "if it's not a problem on my system, then it's not a problem" boat. I feel for you PC players.

You can macro on console, its actually really easy. Not sure if that falls under cheating. They could make it so when you cancel an ability there is a cooldown penalty for said ability. Personally, I think its fine how it is, the only issue is in pvp when people cannot tell what you are doing so there is nothing to read bc animation is canceled.

Mister_DMC

Zos please remove all abilities from the game, I want combat to be as mundane as possible. Also, people using a bow should not have unlimited arrows.

Malacthulhu

Mister_DMC wrote: »

Zos please remove all abilities from the game, I want combat to be as mundane as possible. Also, people using a bow should not have unlimited arrows.

And jumping should consume stanina, also add a magic mario jump that goes a little higher but, consumes not quite as much magic lol

pieratsos

All is fine, do not touch it at all

SilverWF wrote: »

Where did I said about GCD bypass? Probable on one of that imagined pages?

Nope not imaginary at all. As real as it gets. You responded with "LA, Claw (that was 1st impact), Bash - LA, Slash, Bash - LA, Execut, Bash" to someone asking you what is the problem with the combat log. According to your comment, ur opponent bypassed a GCD since the first hit of claw has less than one second difference with heroic slash. You should really pay attention to what you are saying.

SilverWF wrote: »

Anyway, how many times I need to repeat that this was 1st impact of Claw? How many times ppl usually repeats you the same thins? I'll do the same then.

No, this is not the first impact (direct dmg) of venomous claw. In fact, its not even the first DOT tick.

1. The initial impact of venomous hits A LOT harder. He would have to be almost naked for the initial cast (direct dmg) to hit for that low. This is your first clue of it being a DOT tick and not the initial cast.
2. Venomous claw ticks every 2 seconds. The 2 claw hits on ur combat log are exactly 2 seconds apart. This is your second clue of it being a DOT tick and not the initial impact.
3. The initial impact of venomous claw with the first DOT tick hit always in the same second. They roughly have half a second difference. They never have 2 seconds difference. Its undoubtedly a DOT tick and not the initial cast.

SilverWF wrote: »

Why do you think, that 'macro' - is the FULL rotation and it can't be, i.e. 'LA-bash' spam, that wouldn't break manually fired skills?

Because it would probably be the most stupid thing ever to macro "la - bash" just to manually cast "la - heroic slash - bash".
How on earth did you even think that anyone would ever do something like that. Whats the point of macroing "la-bash" if you are going to do something a lot harder manually.

If you want to complain about something then complain about oblivion dmg and bleeds. You took 4k+ dmg in less than 3 seconds, which bypassed all ur defences. Thats what actually killed you. And the worst part is that the person attacking you seems to be a tank that has very low investment into dmg since the dmg of his skills is very low.

SilverWF wrote: »

Anyway, your attempt to teach me is so cute, appreciate that

Ok i wont, feel free to make a fool of urself a little more with ur lack of knowledge of basic game mechanics. No issue with me.

Inarre

All is fine, do not touch it at all

I myself have come to learn that this game is not FFXIV

One day the community will catch on.

UnKnowNKiLLeRR

pieratsos wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

Where did I said about GCD bypass? Probable on one of that imagined pages?

Nope not imaginary at all. As real as it gets. You responded with "LA, Claw (that was 1st impact), Bash - LA, Slash, Bash - LA, Execut, Bash" to someone asking you what is the problem with the combat log. According to your comment, ur opponent bypassed a GCD since the first hit of claw has less than one second difference with heroic slash. You should really pay attention to what you are saying.

SilverWF wrote: »

Anyway, how many times I need to repeat that this was 1st impact of Claw? How many times ppl usually repeats you the same thins? I'll do the same then.

No, this is not the first impact (direct dmg) of venomous claw. In fact, its not even the first DOT tick.

1. The initial impact of venomous hits A LOT harder. He would have to be almost naked for the initial cast (direct dmg) to hit for that low. This is your first clue of it being a DOT tick and not the initial cast.
2. Venomous claw ticks every 2 seconds. The 2 claw hits on ur combat log are exactly 2 seconds apart. This is your second clue of it being a DOT tick and not the initial impact.
3. The initial impact of venomous claw with the first DOT tick hit always in the same second. They roughly have half a second difference. They never have 2 seconds difference. Its undoubtedly a DOT tick and not the initial cast.

SilverWF wrote: »

Why do you think, that 'macro' - is the FULL rotation and it can't be, i.e. 'LA-bash' spam, that wouldn't break manually fired skills?

Because it would probably be the most stupid thing ever to macro "la - bash" just to manually cast "la - heroic slash - bash".
How on earth did you even think that anyone would ever do something like that. Whats the point of macroing "la-bash" if you are going to do something a lot harder manually.

If you want to complain about something then complain about oblivion dmg and bleeds. You took 4k+ dmg in less than 3 seconds, which bypassed all ur defences. Thats what actually killed you. And the worst part is that the person attacking you seems to be a tank that has very low investment into dmg since the dmg of his skills is very low.

SilverWF wrote: »

Anyway, your attempt to teach me is so cute, appreciate that

Ok i wont, feel free to make a fool of urself a little more with ur lack of knowledge of basic game mechanics. No issue with me.

People should L2P before complaining about AC. Animation cancelling is part of MMO culture.

Ectheliontnacil

All is fine, do not touch it at all

Always noobs crying for animation cancelling to be removed because they suck too much to learn it themselves.

Flawless animation cancelling is about the only thing that requires practice in eso and SHOULD be rewarded.

MerlinPendragon

All is fine, do not touch it at all

Ain't broke dont fix it

Cr4p0w3

All is fine, do not touch it at all

Mastery404 wrote: »

Sn1per0 wrote: »

You mean unintended mechanic. Does not change the fact that they NOW say it is a mechanic.

Source, please?

You even have tips in game teaching Weaving with light attacks preceding a skill.
Those tips appear when you are levelling new characters at lvl 40ish.

SilverWF

Allow cancel cast animation by light or heavy attacks or another skill cast

I like when "pro" players (not pro in fact) protecting "weaving" or talking about something, that has nothing to do with the initial post.
If you just can't read - are you sure, that you are 'pro'? Lol, not.

Please, point me where I am fighting against 'weaving'? If you can't - then, you are ignorants, sorry.

I am talking about animation cancellation, when skill does NOT visually playing at all. And I am suggesting (one of options) to allow AC with any skill or attack, as long as it became a 'feature'. How does it would affect your lovely weaving? Right - nohow. WTF you are arguing here then?

AC ruins PVP experience completely, when victim has no clues about his enemy actions. Completely has no clues, because skills and attacks becomes 'invisible' for him! (That's why last screenshot here - just a visual example for some slow and low visitors). Not enemy by himself, but his actions.

Was it intended by ZOS? Not. Otherwise why skills has their unique visuals and not just all the same "weapon smashing"? Answer is obvious, right? For me - yes.

And not, this is not the same as attacking from stealth. Stealth was intended and designed like that, and you can not be 100% time in the stealth while attacking at the same time.

Lol, I feel myself like a teacher who explan '2+2' for low school kids

Shad0wfire99

All is fine, do not touch it at all

SilverWF wrote: »

I like when "pro" players (not pro in fact) protecting "weaving" or talking about something, that has nothing to do with the initial post.
If you just can't read - are you sure, that you are 'pro'? Lol, not.

Please, point me where I am fighting against 'weaving'? If you can't - then, you are ignorants, sorry.

I am talking about animation cancellation, when skill does NOT visually playing at all. And I am suggesting (one of options) to allow AC with any skill or attack, as long as it became a 'feature'. How does it would affect your lovely weaving? Right - nohow. WTF you are arguing here then?

AC ruins PVP experience completely, when victim has no clues about his enemy actions. Completely has no clues, because skills and attacks becomes 'invisible' for him! (That's why last screenshot here - just a visual example for some slow and low visitors). Not enemy by himself, but his actions.

Was it intended by ZOS? Not. Otherwise why skills has their unique visuals and not just all the same "weapon smashing"? Answer is obvious, right? For me - yes.

And not, this is not the same as attacking from stealth. Stealth was intended and designed like that, and you can not be 100% time in the stealth while attacking at the same time.

Lol, I feel myself like a teacher who explan '2+2' for low school kids

If you're a teacher, I'm a unicorn.

SilverWF

Allow cancel cast animation by light or heavy attacks or another skill cast

Shad0wfire99 wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

I like when "pro" players (not pro in fact) protecting "weaving" or talking about something, that has nothing to do with the initial post.
If you just can't read - are you sure, that you are 'pro'? Lol, not.

Please, point me where I am fighting against 'weaving'? If you can't - then, you are ignorants, sorry.

I am talking about animation cancellation, when skill does NOT visually playing at all. And I am suggesting (one of options) to allow AC with any skill or attack, as long as it became a 'feature'. How does it would affect your lovely weaving? Right - nohow. WTF you are arguing here then?

AC ruins PVP experience completely, when victim has no clues about his enemy actions. Completely has no clues, because skills and attacks becomes 'invisible' for him! (That's why last screenshot here - just a visual example for some slow and low visitors). Not enemy by himself, but his actions.

Was it intended by ZOS? Not. Otherwise why skills has their unique visuals and not just all the same "weapon smashing"? Answer is obvious, right? For me - yes.

And not, this is not the same as attacking from stealth. Stealth was intended and designed like that, and you can not be 100% time in the stealth while attacking at the same time.

Lol, I feel myself like a teacher who explan '2+2' for low school kids

If you're a teacher, I'm a unicorn.

Hello, unicorn