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Do you want crown crates gone?
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Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭YesI don't need to itemize anything its plain and simple what you get in 15 crown crates is vastly more than what 5k crowns on items would give..
My apologies. I read that as you were saying they wouldn't add up to at least 5k.
But I still invite those who feel they're getting ripped off to keep a ledger of their crate rewards and to assign crown values based around the existing crown store listings. Generally you'll have 200 to 400 crowns worth of consumables across three cards, and a superior or higher level item card that is worth at least 200 crowns.
There's a difference between getting ripped off and having unrealistic expectations. The former is empirical math, and the latter is emotional math. Knowing versus feeling.
Unfortunately there are a lot of players who feel that the items are rubbish to them, and therefore of no value to anyone. They are, of course, precisely the players who should simply decide not to buy any crates, but sadly they think nobody else should be able to buy any either.
Some players want what is in the Crown Crates, or at least some of the stuff, and just want to buy the stuff without the Crown Crates getting in the way.
Just sayin'XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus2 -
inthecoconut✭✭✭✭YesI don't need to itemize anything its plain and simple what you get in 15 crown crates is vastly more than what 5k crowns on items would give..
My apologies. I read that as you were saying they wouldn't add up to at least 5k.
But I still invite those who feel they're getting ripped off to keep a ledger of their crate rewards and to assign crown values based around the existing crown store listings. Generally you'll have 200 to 400 crowns worth of consumables across three cards, and a superior or higher level item card that is worth at least 200 crowns.
There's a difference between getting ripped off and having unrealistic expectations. The former is empirical math, and the latter is emotional math. Knowing versus feeling.
Unfortunately there are a lot of players who feel that the items are rubbish to them, and therefore of no value to anyone. They are, of course, precisely the players who should simply decide not to buy any crates, but sadly they think nobody else should be able to buy any either.
Why not have both? Offer crown crates for those who enjoy gambling/chance, and also offer the same items in the crown store for direct purchase?1 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nolordrichter wrote: »I don't need to itemize anything its plain and simple what you get in 15 crown crates is vastly more than what 5k crowns on items would give..
My apologies. I read that as you were saying they wouldn't add up to at least 5k.
But I still invite those who feel they're getting ripped off to keep a ledger of their crate rewards and to assign crown values based around the existing crown store listings. Generally you'll have 200 to 400 crowns worth of consumables across three cards, and a superior or higher level item card that is worth at least 200 crowns.
There's a difference between getting ripped off and having unrealistic expectations. The former is empirical math, and the latter is emotional math. Knowing versus feeling.
Unfortunately there are a lot of players who feel that the items are rubbish to them, and therefore of no value to anyone. They are, of course, precisely the players who should simply decide not to buy any crates, but sadly they think nobody else should be able to buy any either.
Some players want what is in the Crown Crates, or at least some of the stuff, and just want to buy the stuff without the Crown Crates getting in the way.
Just sayin'
That's an entirely different argument, and one I perfectly understand. My point was concerned with those who aren't bothered about the uncertainty of a crate versus the certainty of the crown store, but who regard all the contents as worthless to them and therefore argue for them to be dropped regardless of their worth to others.Edited by Tandor on July 27, 2018 8:18PM0 -
mateosalvaje✭✭✭✭NoI don't buy crown crates aside from the spooky season ones, but I really really enjoy the free ones! I just wish we could buy crown crates with crown gems. Then when Halloween crates came, I could re-roll the dice until they were allll gone
I've been wrong before, and I'll be wrong again.1 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nointhecoconut wrote: »I don't need to itemize anything its plain and simple what you get in 15 crown crates is vastly more than what 5k crowns on items would give..
My apologies. I read that as you were saying they wouldn't add up to at least 5k.
But I still invite those who feel they're getting ripped off to keep a ledger of their crate rewards and to assign crown values based around the existing crown store listings. Generally you'll have 200 to 400 crowns worth of consumables across three cards, and a superior or higher level item card that is worth at least 200 crowns.
There's a difference between getting ripped off and having unrealistic expectations. The former is empirical math, and the latter is emotional math. Knowing versus feeling.
Unfortunately there are a lot of players who feel that the items are rubbish to them, and therefore of no value to anyone. They are, of course, precisely the players who should simply decide not to buy any crates, but sadly they think nobody else should be able to buy any either.
Why not have both? Offer crown crates for those who enjoy gambling/chance, and also offer the same items in the crown store for direct purchase?
That's a perfectly valid suggestion, albeit more in response to @lordrichter 's point than mine.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No opinionWe do not have to buy crown crates. We are given that choice.
Besides, the poll and it's results are meaningless and Zos is aware. It does not matter that OP biased the poll, it does matter that Zos has a different poll that silences this one. We vote in that poll every month and it is why we will have crown crates for many months to come.1 -
Davor✭✭✭✭✭
✭YesI voted yes. I play ESO to have fun. I shouldn't have to gamble to get something I want. So I don't bother. I tried it in the beginning to see what this "crates" were because I never played a game with gambling in it, and ESO has no place for gambling. I was going to say we, but will just say I, I come here to get away from real world stuff, I don't need gambling in my game and be upset if I can't get it.
It's one thing if I can't afford it and want it, it's upsetting only way to get something is by gambling. I even quit ESO because of this but came back about 6 months ago and not just bothered with the crates.Not my quote but I love this saying
"I would pay It for support. But since they choosed we are just numbers and not customers, i dont mind if game and zos goes to oblivion"0 -
Lazrael✭✭✭YesI don't like gambling in my Elder Scrolls.
But I'd also like prices (particularly utilitarian ones ie name, race, and appearance change) to be made more reasonable on the whole.
25 bucks to change my name? come on...Artists and Theives...1 -
THEMourningLily✭✭✭NoI like the crown crates and I buy them when new stuff comes out. I hardly ever get a radiant or apex anything from them. What I do is just cash in the junk for gems and eventually buy what I want with the saved up crown gems. You have to look at it like you would those carnival game booths. Hardly anyone wins the gigantic life sized stuffed animal, but it's still fun to play. Geez, no need to close the carnival boardwalk down just because you finally figured out that they are rigged in the house's favor.Edited by THEMourningLily on July 27, 2018 10:46PM0
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Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭YesI wonder if you guys realize that the game has survived just fine before crown crates, with quality content such as Orsinium getting pushed out.
The game doesn't need the income from crown crates, and more likely than not it just lines the pockets of the top dogs at Zenimax Media instead of going to Zenimax Online Studios to make ESO.
Just because you spend the money on stuff ZOS makes, doesn't mean it goes to ZOS.Valrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake2 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes
The type of people who buy crown crates usually don't have this kind of self-control. In fact those type of people are specifically what crown crates prey onThannazzar wrote: »If you cant aford to gamble, dont.Valrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake1 -
THEMourningLily✭✭✭No
The type of people who buy crown crates usually don't have this kind of self-control. In fact those type of people are specifically what crown crates prey onThannazzar wrote: »If you cant aford to gamble, dont.
I resent the implication that people who choose to purchase crates or any other crown items makes them prey for a crown crate gambling addition or an inability to budget their finances. What people choose to spend their money on isn't for you or anyone else to judge. Speak for yourself. Don't attempt to speak for others.
2 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NoI wonder if you guys realize that the game has survived just fine before crown crates, with quality content such as Orsinium getting pushed out.
The game doesn't need the income from crown crates, and more likely than not it just lines the pockets of the top dogs at Zenimax Media instead of going to Zenimax Online Studios to make ESO.
Just because you spend the money on stuff ZOS makes, doesn't mean it goes to ZOS.
You seam to have a lot of insight into their operations. What was the P&L for last quarter vs the quarter before orsinium's launch?Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA0 -
idrankyourbeer✭✭✭YesI don't like gambling in my Elder Scrolls.
But I'd also like prices (particularly utilitarian ones ie name, race, and appearance change) to be made more reasonable on the whole.
25 bucks to change my name? come on...
for just one character. talk about a deal!
wait until you get into the outfit slots!0 -
Nyladreas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭YesYes and No really... Idc about their existence what bothers me is the price.0 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭YesI wonder if you guys realize that the game has survived just fine before crown crates, with quality content such as Orsinium getting pushed out.
The game doesn't need the income from crown crates, and more likely than not it just lines the pockets of the top dogs at Zenimax Media instead of going to Zenimax Online Studios to make ESO.
Just because you spend the money on stuff ZOS makes, doesn't mean it goes to ZOS.
You seam to have a lot of insight into their operations. What was the P&L for last quarter vs the quarter before orsinium's launch?
And you seem to be in denialTHEMourningLily wrote: »
The type of people who buy crown crates usually don't have this kind of self-control. In fact those type of people are specifically what crown crates prey onThannazzar wrote: »If you cant aford to gamble, dont.
I resent the implication that people who choose to purchase crates or any other crown items makes them prey for a crown crate gambling addition or an inability to budget their finances. What people choose to spend their money on isn't for you or anyone else to judge. Speak for yourself. Don't attempt to speak for others.
The crown crates aren't what makes people prey. The crates are the fuel for their addictionValrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake0 -
THEMourningLily✭✭✭NoI wonder if you guys realize that the game has survived just fine before crown crates, with quality content such as Orsinium getting pushed out.
The game doesn't need the income from crown crates, and more likely than not it just lines the pockets of the top dogs at Zenimax Media instead of going to Zenimax Online Studios to make ESO.
Just because you spend the money on stuff ZOS makes, doesn't mean it goes to ZOS.
You seam to have a lot of insight into their operations. What was the P&L for last quarter vs the quarter before orsinium's launch?
And you seem to be in denialTHEMourningLily wrote: »
The type of people who buy crown crates usually don't have this kind of self-control. In fact those type of people are specifically what crown crates prey onThannazzar wrote: »If you cant aford to gamble, dont.
I resent the implication that people who choose to purchase crates or any other crown items makes them prey for a crown crate gambling addition or an inability to budget their finances. What people choose to spend their money on isn't for you or anyone else to judge. Speak for yourself. Don't attempt to speak for others.
The crown crates aren't what makes people prey. The crates are the fuel for their addiction
People who have addictions have them regardless of what is in reach to fuel their addictions. The argument to remove crates because it's fuels people's addictions makes as much sense as stopping food production because it fuels binge eating disorders.1 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭YesTHEMourningLily wrote: »I wonder if you guys realize that the game has survived just fine before crown crates, with quality content such as Orsinium getting pushed out.
The game doesn't need the income from crown crates, and more likely than not it just lines the pockets of the top dogs at Zenimax Media instead of going to Zenimax Online Studios to make ESO.
Just because you spend the money on stuff ZOS makes, doesn't mean it goes to ZOS.
You seam to have a lot of insight into their operations. What was the P&L for last quarter vs the quarter before orsinium's launch?
And you seem to be in denialTHEMourningLily wrote: »
The type of people who buy crown crates usually don't have this kind of self-control. In fact those type of people are specifically what crown crates prey onThannazzar wrote: »If you cant aford to gamble, dont.
I resent the implication that people who choose to purchase crates or any other crown items makes them prey for a crown crate gambling addition or an inability to budget their finances. What people choose to spend their money on isn't for you or anyone else to judge. Speak for yourself. Don't attempt to speak for others.
The crown crates aren't what makes people prey. The crates are the fuel for their addiction
People who have addictions have them regardless of what is in reach to fuel their addictions. The argument to remove crates because it's fuels people's addictions makes as much sense as stopping food production because it fuels binge eating disorders.
Food is necessary for life. Gambling is only there for the casino to make money, and for the players to lose money. Taking the argument to extremes doesn't mean you win.
Valrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake0 -
THEMourningLily✭✭✭NoTHEMourningLily wrote: »I wonder if you guys realize that the game has survived just fine before crown crates, with quality content such as Orsinium getting pushed out.
The game doesn't need the income from crown crates, and more likely than not it just lines the pockets of the top dogs at Zenimax Media instead of going to Zenimax Online Studios to make ESO.
Just because you spend the money on stuff ZOS makes, doesn't mean it goes to ZOS.
You seam to have a lot of insight into their operations. What was the P&L for last quarter vs the quarter before orsinium's launch?
And you seem to be in denialTHEMourningLily wrote: »
The type of people who buy crown crates usually don't have this kind of self-control. In fact those type of people are specifically what crown crates prey onThannazzar wrote: »If you cant aford to gamble, dont.
I resent the implication that people who choose to purchase crates or any other crown items makes them prey for a crown crate gambling addition or an inability to budget their finances. What people choose to spend their money on isn't for you or anyone else to judge. Speak for yourself. Don't attempt to speak for others.
The crown crates aren't what makes people prey. The crates are the fuel for their addiction
People who have addictions have them regardless of what is in reach to fuel their addictions. The argument to remove crates because it's fuels people's addictions makes as much sense as stopping food production because it fuels binge eating disorders.
Food is necessary for life. Gambling is only there for the casino to make money, and for the players to lose money. Taking the argument to extremes doesn't mean you win.
Okay, if logic doesn't work, let me be direct. Just because some people think they need to police other's right to how they spend their money or choose to have fun doesn't mean it should happen. I don't need someone to shelter and protect me from the big bad corporations and the money grubbing products they release. Just because a small minority of people may have a gambling addiction shouldn't be grounds for the rest of us to not use a product. I don't need to be protected and coddled, but thanks for your concern.Edited by THEMourningLily on July 27, 2018 11:43PM3 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NoI'm happy for whatever comes out of "free". I don't buy crates; I grew up in Vegas, and the one thing I KNOW is - don't gamble.Edited by Sylvermynx on July 27, 2018 11:30PM0 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭YesTHEMourningLily wrote: »THEMourningLily wrote: »I wonder if you guys realize that the game has survived just fine before crown crates, with quality content such as Orsinium getting pushed out.
The game doesn't need the income from crown crates, and more likely than not it just lines the pockets of the top dogs at Zenimax Media instead of going to Zenimax Online Studios to make ESO.
Just because you spend the money on stuff ZOS makes, doesn't mean it goes to ZOS.
You seam to have a lot of insight into their operations. What was the P&L for last quarter vs the quarter before orsinium's launch?
And you seem to be in denialTHEMourningLily wrote: »
The type of people who buy crown crates usually don't have this kind of self-control. In fact those type of people are specifically what crown crates prey onThannazzar wrote: »If you cant aford to gamble, dont.
I resent the implication that people who choose to purchase crates or any other crown items makes them prey for a crown crate gambling addition or an inability to budget their finances. What people choose to spend their money on isn't for you or anyone else to judge. Speak for yourself. Don't attempt to speak for others.
The crown crates aren't what makes people prey. The crates are the fuel for their addiction
People who have addictions have them regardless of what is in reach to fuel their addictions. The argument to remove crates because it's fuels people's addictions makes as much sense as stopping food production because it fuels binge eating disorders.
Food is necessary for life. Gambling is only there for the casino to make money, and for the players to lose money. Taking the argument to extremes doesn't mean you win.
Okay, if logic doesn't work, let me be direct. Just because some people think they need to police other's right to how they spend their money or choose to have fun doesn't mean it should happen. I don't need someone to shelter and protect me from the big bad corporations and the money grubbing products they release. Just because a small minority of people may have a gambling addiction shouldn't be grounds for the rest of us to not use a product. I don't need to be protected and coddled, but thanks for your concern.
"You're not my dad, don't tell me how to irresponsibly spend my money!"
Go for it, waste your money and keep showing that 100% predatory business practices are okay :PValrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake3 -
KingMagaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭YesI dont have as much as a problem with crown crates as i do with it being unregulated.
RNG is a term used a lot but it should not be used in conjunction with ESO because the drop rates are artificially altered leaving it not random, but fixed probabilities.
I cannot wait, until the government or some form of regulation is in place because at the minute it gives companies like ZOS free reign to be as predatory as they see fit, which is not in any players/customers interests. At least from my perspective.1 -
THEMourningLily✭✭✭NoTHEMourningLily wrote: »THEMourningLily wrote: »I wonder if you guys realize that the game has survived just fine before crown crates, with quality content such as Orsinium getting pushed out.
The game doesn't need the income from crown crates, and more likely than not it just lines the pockets of the top dogs at Zenimax Media instead of going to Zenimax Online Studios to make ESO.
Just because you spend the money on stuff ZOS makes, doesn't mean it goes to ZOS.
You seam to have a lot of insight into their operations. What was the P&L for last quarter vs the quarter before orsinium's launch?
And you seem to be in denialTHEMourningLily wrote: »
The type of people who buy crown crates usually don't have this kind of self-control. In fact those type of people are specifically what crown crates prey onThannazzar wrote: »If you cant aford to gamble, dont.
I resent the implication that people who choose to purchase crates or any other crown items makes them prey for a crown crate gambling addition or an inability to budget their finances. What people choose to spend their money on isn't for you or anyone else to judge. Speak for yourself. Don't attempt to speak for others.
The crown crates aren't what makes people prey. The crates are the fuel for their addiction
People who have addictions have them regardless of what is in reach to fuel their addictions. The argument to remove crates because it's fuels people's addictions makes as much sense as stopping food production because it fuels binge eating disorders.
Food is necessary for life. Gambling is only there for the casino to make money, and for the players to lose money. Taking the argument to extremes doesn't mean you win.
Okay, if logic doesn't work, let me be direct. Just because some people think they need to police other's right to how they spend their money or choose to have fun doesn't mean it should happen. I don't need someone to shelter and protect me from the big bad corporations and the money grubbing products they release. Just because a small minority of people may have a gambling addiction shouldn't be grounds for the rest of us to not use a product. I don't need to be protected and coddled, but thanks for your concern.
"You're not my dad, don't tell me how to irresponsibly spend my money!"
Go for it, waste your money and keep showing that 100% predatory business practices are okay :P
Thanks, I will.1 -
ADarklore✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No opinionI always love it when people continue the, "everyone else's fault" mentality that is ruining the world... where personal choices and decisions are no longer important. Apparently no matter what I spend my money on, it's apparently not my decision but something psychologically controlling me behind the scenes... and apparently I also need some form of government regulation to help me since I'm unable to make logical decisions.
Sad really. So many people buying into, and furthering, that type of mentality; I remember the days when people were responsible for their own choices and decisions and didn't blame others, or companies, for them.CP: 2078 ** ESO+ 2025 Content Pass ** ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****
~~Started Playing: May 2015 | Stopped Playing: July 2025~~4 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NoTHEMourningLily wrote: »THEMourningLily wrote: »I wonder if you guys realize that the game has survived just fine before crown crates, with quality content such as Orsinium getting pushed out.
The game doesn't need the income from crown crates, and more likely than not it just lines the pockets of the top dogs at Zenimax Media instead of going to Zenimax Online Studios to make ESO.
Just because you spend the money on stuff ZOS makes, doesn't mean it goes to ZOS.
You seam to have a lot of insight into their operations. What was the P&L for last quarter vs the quarter before orsinium's launch?
And you seem to be in denialTHEMourningLily wrote: »
The type of people who buy crown crates usually don't have this kind of self-control. In fact those type of people are specifically what crown crates prey onThannazzar wrote: »If you cant aford to gamble, dont.
I resent the implication that people who choose to purchase crates or any other crown items makes them prey for a crown crate gambling addition or an inability to budget their finances. What people choose to spend their money on isn't for you or anyone else to judge. Speak for yourself. Don't attempt to speak for others.
The crown crates aren't what makes people prey. The crates are the fuel for their addiction
People who have addictions have them regardless of what is in reach to fuel their addictions. The argument to remove crates because it's fuels people's addictions makes as much sense as stopping food production because it fuels binge eating disorders.
Food is necessary for life. Gambling is only there for the casino to make money, and for the players to lose money. Taking the argument to extremes doesn't mean you win.
Okay, if logic doesn't work, let me be direct. Just because some people think they need to police other's right to how they spend their money or choose to have fun doesn't mean it should happen. I don't need someone to shelter and protect me from the big bad corporations and the money grubbing products they release. Just because a small minority of people may have a gambling addiction shouldn't be grounds for the rest of us to not use a product. I don't need to be protected and coddled, but thanks for your concern.
"You're not my dad, don't tell me how to irresponsibly spend my money!"
Go for it, waste your money and keep showing that 100% predatory business practices are okay :P
Why do you assume that it's a waste of money for everyone else, just because you don't feel you get any value from it? This argument (and most others against crates) would carry a lot more weight if (a) the crates only ever contained an epic item or nothing, and (b) if people based their case on their own personal opinion rather than trying to foist that opinion on everyone else.1 -
Slick_007✭✭✭✭✭
✭No
Go for it, waste your money and keep showing that 100% predatory business practices are okay :P
they are not predatory to me, but the attitudes of self righteous people in here demanding my right to buy something be taken away, well, thats a nother argument. One that you will lose.4 -
jamgrs✭✭YesI voted "yes", but not because I want crown crates to be gone completely. I want them to become better: to have more consistency of seasons' items quality (sometimes there are good seasons with nice items and sometimes there are seasons with tattoos, more tattoos and even more tattoos); a chance to buy radiant mounts for gems (yes, they would cost a lot of gems, but); an ability to extract gems from any unwanted item that drops (though such a feature is unlikely to be implemented).
I'm cool with free crates as daily rewards. My friend usually can't spare much money on games - she wouldn't be able to buy pricey stuff directly from crown store. Free crates either give her items she wants or gems to buy those items. So I think making crates a daily reward was a pretty decent thing to do. I wish it was done sooner, but oh well.
I do realise crown crates are problematic for some people. But they are nothing more than lootboxes, and lootboxes are not inherently evil.Edited by jamgrs on July 28, 2018 11:15AMEdited by jamgrs because of typos3 -
DanteYoda✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Nolordrichter wrote: »I don't need to itemize anything its plain and simple what you get in 15 crown crates is vastly more than what 5k crowns on items would give..
My apologies. I read that as you were saying they wouldn't add up to at least 5k.
But I still invite those who feel they're getting ripped off to keep a ledger of their crate rewards and to assign crown values based around the existing crown store listings. Generally you'll have 200 to 400 crowns worth of consumables across three cards, and a superior or higher level item card that is worth at least 200 crowns.
There's a difference between getting ripped off and having unrealistic expectations. The former is empirical math, and the latter is emotional math. Knowing versus feeling.
Unfortunately there are a lot of players who feel that the items are rubbish to them, and therefore of no value to anyone. They are, of course, precisely the players who should simply decide not to buy any crates, but sadly they think nobody else should be able to buy any either.
Some players want what is in the Crown Crates, or at least some of the stuff, and just want to buy the stuff without the Crown Crates getting in the way.
Just sayin'
Which in the long run would cost us three to four times as much.. If crown crates were removed Zeni would want the same money from standard sales..
Look what we pay now and what we paid at release.. We bought a game and a subscription and that was that, then they removed the sub and now we pay 4-5 times for the same thing..Edited by DanteYoda on July 28, 2018 12:47PM0