Buff to medium armor?

Zelos · July 2018

Medium armor needs a little bit of a buff in my opinion. Both in PvP and PvE medium armor isnt really used unless you're a nightblade sadly. In PvE you're so squishy most groups just run mageblade for dps. In PvP more and more things and sets are becoming undodgeable and medium armor is again suffering. Some of its passives like reduce sneak is useless completely as it isnt needed in pve or pvp unless you're a ganker. Shuffle had less of a snare immunity then forward momentum which to this day I have no idea why. Most of the time i see heavy armor people with speed pots and forward momentum just turbo away faster then they would in medium armor and it's insane, forward momentum also only costs 2600 stam while shuffle costs 3900 and you have to cast it every 2.5 seconds while you only have to cast momentum every 8 seconds and for less WHAT!?!?! Something that's built for speed and momentum like medium armor should not get out ran by someone in heavy if they were constantly being snared over and over again. With the change to wings it's still behind a full armor weight is being matched by 1 class skill and 1 weapon skill, they can gain the same or more snare immunity for less resources better advantages and can still run heavy or light armor. The medium armor passives are good but some can use a rework like the mentioned sneak reduction and even the passive weapon damage could be buffed from 12% a little. The fact is most classes struggle in medium armor and it's being pushed more and more to the side in my opinion. In open world and PvE, I think some kind of aoe damage mitigation or some kind of mitigation on medium armor would make it a little more In line with the tankiness of heavy armor and the wards of light armor.
I think something along the lines of reducing damage over time and AoE damage by 15% or 20% would help the survival of medium armor by a lot and would make it more useful

Vaneur · July 2018

I'd just add something like... "reduced the roll dodge cost penalty duration by X% for each piece of medium armor equiped" instead the sneak passive... btw I agree that shuffle demands some help, its stamina cost is too high and the snare inmunity is too short.

Strider__Roshin · July 2018

As much as this has been discussed I'm surprised that the class devs have not conveyed this to ZOS. Pretty disappointing truthfully.

Carbonised · July 2018

The problem is not medium armor, which is fine, but Forward Momentum, which is an extremely overpowered skill in a skill tree with many powerful skills. Major buff for a long time, consistent HoTs ticking, as well as snare removal and 8 secs of snare immunity is extremely powerful, way too powerful. No, medium armor shouldn't get that kind of buff as well.

Wings have gotten a snare immunity of 2 seconds, that's hardly comparable. If anything, Forward momentum should be nerfed to 2 secs immunity as well, seeing as other snare immunities share that timer.

Zelos · July 2018

Carbonised wrote: »

The problem is not medium armor, which is fine, but Forward Momentum, which is an extremely overpowered skill in a skill tree with many powerful skills. Major buff for a long time, consistent HoTs ticking, as well as snare removal and 8 secs of snare immunity is extremely powerful, way too powerful. No, medium armor shouldn't get that kind of buff as well.

Wings have gotten a snare immunity of 2 seconds, that's hardly comparable. If anything, Forward momentum should be nerfed to 2 secs immunity as well, seeing as other snare immunities share that timer.

I enjoy medium armor but I feel like I'm suffocating in it. PvE and PvP the shuffle needs at least 4 to 5 seconds since it is medium armor a mobile way, it should be a choice between being mobile (medium armor) and being tanky as hell (heavy armor). However medium armor also gets killed very fast in PvE as well we don't have wards and we dont have tankiness. There is very little melee dos brings.
Magicka is ranged, has wards, great sustain, and utility.
Stamina is melee(higher chance to die), no wards, average sustain (mostly heavy attack rotations) and utility. Why choose stamina over magicka especially since stamina dies very easily. I think it needs a little damage over time and aoe damage reduction, not alot but ever 10 or 15% really takes less damage from hard hitting mechanics.

Maryal · July 2018

If you choose armor weight based on it's passives, thinking that these passives will make up for something your build lacks, you are not going to be happy in the long run and sooner, rather than later, the grass is going to look greener somewhere else.

It's generally best to choose an armor weight that emphasizes your individual play style.

People eventually develop their own individual play style. I remember hearing this when I first started the game, and thought "yeah, well my play style is to kill sh** ... what other kind of play style is there? Healer maybe?" [/i]

You don't know what you don't know.
The term 'individual play style' gets tossed around a lot by content creators and by people on the forums. When I first started this game, I thought I understood what that term meant. As it turns out, I didn't.

Back then, I thought 'individual play style' was more like a category, you know, like ganker, healer, tank, dot-build, AOE build, or single target build. It took me well over a year before I began to realize what this 'individual play style' really meant. While it's difficult to describe, I can tell you that it cuts across a variety of builds and a variety of classes. The best example I can give of a well-developed playstyle is @JackDaniell and you can see his videos here: https://youtube.com/user/kristofersommermusic/videos

The point is that once you have developed your own individual play style, then you can create builds that emphasize your individual strengths (which is your particular play style). In creating your build, your selection of armor weight (passives) is important. Too many people view armor passives as a way to make-up for something that they or their build lacks ... while this might make them feel good in the short term, after a while most people end up feeling frustrated and the grass starts to look greener elsewhere (i.e., comparing their preferred armor weight against the other two, then concluding their preferred armor weight needs 'some love').

By the time you've honed in on your individual play style, you should have enough experience in the game to understand the pro's and con's of all armor weight passives AND if you are in a situation where you need to select a sub-optimal armor weight, you will know what work-arounds you need to ensure your overall build is one that truly emphasizes your own individual play style.

The bottom line is this: the good/bad points of each armor weight is subjective; it's an opinion that is heavily weighted (no pun intended) on a person's individual play style ... or perhaps ... not yet having yet discovered it.

Skander · July 2018

If you buff medium. Buff heavy too.

Zelos · July 2018

Maryal wrote: »

If you choose armor weight based on it's passives, thinking that these passives will make up for something your build lacks, you are not going to be happy in the long run and sooner, rather than later, the grass is going to look greener somewhere else.

It's generally best to choose an armor weight that emphasizes your individual play style.

People eventually develop their own individual play style. I remember hearing this when I first started the game, and thought "yeah, well my play style is to kill sh** ... what other kind of play style is there? Healer maybe?" [/i]

You don't know what you don't know.
The term 'individual play style' gets tossed around a lot by content creators and by people on the forums. When I first started this game, I thought I understood what that term meant. As it turns out, I didn't.

Back then, I thought 'individual play style' was more like a category, you know, like ganker, healer, tank, dot-build, AOE build, or single target build. It took me well over a year before I began to realize what this 'individual play style' really meant. While it's difficult to describe, I can tell you that it cuts across a variety of builds and a variety of classes. The best example I can give of a well-developed playstyle is @JackDaniell and you can see his videos here: https://youtube.com/user/kristofersommermusic/videos
The point is that once you have developed your own individual play style, then you can create builds that emphasize your individual strengths (which is your particular play style). In creating your build, your selection of armor weight (passives) is important. Too many people view armor passives as a way to make-up for something that they or their build lacks ... while this might make them feel good in the short term, after a while most people end up feeling frustrated and the grass starts to look greener elsewhere (i.e., comparing their preferred armor weight against the other two, then concluding their preferred armor weight needs 'some love').

By the time you've honed in on your individual play style, you should have enough experience in the game to understand the pro's and con's of all armor weight passives AND if you are in a situation where you need to select a sub-optimal armor weight, you will know what work-arounds you need to ensure your overall build is one that truly emphasizes your own individual play style.

The bottom line is this: the good/bad points of each armor weight is subjective; it's an opinion that is heavily weighted (no pun intended) on a person's individual play style ... or perhaps ... not yet having yet discovered it.

My build gets as much survivability as possible, with 28k buffed resistance and 5k crit resistance what can I do when I die against let's say a magsorc who's burst is 80% undodgeable? I cant dodge curse or meteor, I cant dodge rune cage or endless fury execute, I can barely dodge force pulse. So tell me if I have 2 mag sorcs on me what do I do? My playstyle has been the same and I've played medium armor for a while now LoS, roll dodge, and block for a few seconds? So tell me how can I be more effective with so much undodgeable damage? If you didnt know already medium armor survives by LoS and roll dodge, with a occasional block here and there to reduce incoming damage, so if I have 28k resistance and 5k crit resistance. How do i survive against a MagDK and magsorc, dots stuns that go through roll dodge and lots of dots? I cant purge? I cant cloak? All I can do is dodge and LoS all the undodgeable damage and try to out heal it, while avoiding a auto execute. I'm not sure what you are trying to say? My question is how do I survive that? Heavy at least gets some form of extra healing, medium doesnt, some classes get mending, some dont like stamblade our mending was in the forum of cloak which crit all our heals. It's now gone, so how do I survive what is my counter-play?!!?

huschdeguddzje · July 2018

Speaking strictly from a pve standpoint, I think medium armor should get either a damage increase trough whatever means, to give it a high risk(low survivability) high reward playstyle, or give it more defence to bring them up to magicka dps levels.

Maryal · July 2018

Zelos wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

If you choose armor weight based on it's passives, thinking that these passives will make up for something your build lacks, you are not going to be happy in the long run and sooner, rather than later, the grass is going to look greener somewhere else.

It's generally best to choose an armor weight that emphasizes your individual play style.

People eventually develop their own individual play style. I remember hearing this when I first started the game, and thought "yeah, well my play style is to kill sh** ... what other kind of play style is there? Healer maybe?" [/i]

You don't know what you don't know.
The term 'individual play style' gets tossed around a lot by content creators and by people on the forums. When I first started this game, I thought I understood what that term meant. As it turns out, I didn't.

Back then, I thought 'individual play style' was more like a category, you know, like ganker, healer, tank, dot-build, AOE build, or single target build. It took me well over a year before I began to realize what this 'individual play style' really meant. While it's difficult to describe, I can tell you that it cuts across a variety of builds and a variety of classes. The best example I can give of a well-developed playstyle is @JackDaniell and you can see his videos here: https://youtube.com/user/kristofersommermusic/videos
The point is that once you have developed your own individual play style, then you can create builds that emphasize your individual strengths (which is your particular play style). In creating your build, your selection of armor weight (passives) is important. Too many people view armor passives as a way to make-up for something that they or their build lacks ... while this might make them feel good in the short term, after a while most people end up feeling frustrated and the grass starts to look greener elsewhere (i.e., comparing their preferred armor weight against the other two, then concluding their preferred armor weight needs 'some love').

By the time you've honed in on your individual play style, you should have enough experience in the game to understand the pro's and con's of all armor weight passives AND if you are in a situation where you need to select a sub-optimal armor weight, you will know what work-arounds you need to ensure your overall build is one that truly emphasizes your own individual play style.

The bottom line is this: the good/bad points of each armor weight is subjective; it's an opinion that is heavily weighted (no pun intended) on a person's individual play style ... or perhaps ... not yet having yet discovered it.

My build gets as much survivability as possible, with 28k buffed resistance and 5k crit resistance what can I do when I die against let's say a magsorc who's burst is 80% undodgeable? I cant dodge curse or meteor, I cant dodge rune cage or endless fury execute, I can barely dodge force pulse. So tell me if I have 2 mag sorcs on me what do I do? My playstyle has been the same and I've played medium armor for a while now LoS, roll dodge, and block for a few seconds? So tell me how can I be more effective with so much undodgeable damage? If you didnt know already medium armor survives by LoS and roll dodge, with a occasional block here and there to reduce incoming damage, so if I have 28k resistance and 5k crit resistance. How do i survive against a MagDK and magsorc, dots stuns that go through roll dodge and lots of dots? I cant purge? I cant cloak? All I can do is dodge and LoS all the undodgeable damage and try to out heal it, while avoiding a auto execute. I'm not sure what you are trying to say? My question is how do I survive that? Heavy at least gets some form of extra healing, medium doesnt, some classes get mending, some dont like stamblade our mending was in the forum of cloak which crit all our heals. It's now gone, so how do I survive what is my counter-play?!!?

I just now saw your response ... unfortunately I have to leave for work in a few minutes, but I will respond tomorrow.

Maryal · July 2018

huschdeguddzje wrote: »

Speaking strictly from a pve standpoint, I think medium armor should get either a damage increase trough whatever means, to give it a high risk(low survivability) high reward playstyle, or give it more defence to bring them up to magicka dps levels.

Your comments indicate that your play style isn't one well suited for a build focused around the benefits of wearing medium armor.

IAVITNI · July 2018

Give Medium a 5% reduction to AoE that increases to 10% while roll dodging and reduce damage taken by critical hits by 8%. Done.

Narvuntien · July 2018

I think the reduced AoE damage is a good idea since the other armor weights have defensive passives and medium does not.

Also it makes sense, light armor is good against magic (due to magic thread apperently) heavy armor takes hits the best and medium takes non direct damage but not as good against direct damage as heavy.

Twohothardware · July 2018

Medium Armor needs buffed but they gotta find a way to do it where it's only a buff for non-Nightblade classes or nerf damage on NB at the same time as the buff. Medium Armor StamDK, StamSorc, and Stamplar struggles against the zergs in Cyrodiil and needs something to make it more manageable to wear but go with just a blanket buff and Stamblade will get ridiculous again since almost all StamNB are already in medium and they're the top performing class.

Slick_007 · July 2018

Vaneur wrote: »

I'd just add something like... "reduced the roll dodge cost penalty duration by X% for each piece of medium armor equiped" instead the sneak passive... btw I agree that shuffle demands some help, its stamina cost is too high and the snare inmunity is too short.

no. stop trying to mess with sneak.

Carbonised · July 2018

Zelos wrote: »

I enjoy medium armor but I feel like I'm suffocating in it. PvE and PvP the shuffle needs at least 4 to 5 seconds

You get 23 seconds of major evasion, which is very powerful and long lasting. You're not supposed to re-cast shuffle every 2.5 seconds, the snare and immobilization immunity is extremely powerful in PvP, and you're not supposed to have that up permanently. You asking for perma-immunity to snares and immobilization is way out of balance.

And this ability works at its full power under battlespirit, whereas light armor shield is cut in half for PvP, which is something you forget to mention. Unless you're a shield stacking sorc, that light armor shield is worth nothing in PvP, and I'll happily trade it for a 23 second passive dodge chance and 2.5 seconds of snare and immobilization immunity.

Medium armor is perfectly fine and on par with light armor. Of course you get better survivability from heavy, that's what heavy armor is for. And you also lose a lot of damage potential. The choice is yours.

Mayrael · July 2018

The problem is roll dodge is very very powerful defensive tool against MOST attacks, but there are attacks which bypass that mechanic (which is good) but when stacked these attacks are causing feel of powerless on receiving end.

What could help and at the same time not disturbe the balance? For sure not the reducing cost of roll dodge - you don't want to spam roll dodge more against someone who uses undodgeable attacks, also we don't want to create situation where undodgeable attacks will be completly useless, because each defensive mechanic needs a counter.
My idea is to add to Evasion skill a thing like:
After casting Evasion or any of its morphs you you gain buff for 5s that allows you to ignore next direct attack damage (not its effects).

Edit: Costs of the skill are doubled while effect lasts +1s (to avoid brainless spam + roll dodge cancel)

Reasoning:
1. It stays available only for medium armour users.
2. It allows for some ACTIVE counter play against skills like curse, meteor, endless furry etc.
3. It still allows to use effectively undodgeable attacks but requires now more thinking and doesn't allow to totally bypass main medium armour defense which is damage avoiding.
4. It's ACTIVE defense so it doesn't add brain dead mechanic that works like equip to win.

DivineFirstYOLO · July 2018

Twohothardware wrote: »

Medium Armor needs buffed but they gotta find a way to do it where it's only a buff for non-Nightblade classes or nerf damage on NB at the same time as the buff. Medium Armor StamDK, StamSorc, and Stamplar struggles against the zergs in Cyrodiil and needs something to make it more manageable to wear but go with just a blanket buff and Stamblade will get ridiculous again since almost all StamNB are already in medium and they're the top performing class.

this exactly this, 100% agree

Strider__Roshin · July 2018

Twohothardware wrote: »

Medium Armor needs buffed but they gotta find a way to do it where it's only a buff for non-Nightblade classes or nerf damage on NB at the same time as the buff. Medium Armor StamDK, StamSorc, and Stamplar struggles against the zergs in Cyrodiil and needs something to make it more manageable to wear but go with just a blanket buff and Stamblade will get ridiculous again since almost all StamNB are already in medium and they're the top performing class.

Not all stamblades go invisible.

olsborg · July 2018

I wouldnt even mind if they removed the evasion from shuffle, as long as the snare/root immunity lasted like 8-10 seconds. And reduced the cost somewhat.

The Improved sneak passive is also basicly useless imo, replace it with something that would actually help in combat. Something defensive would be X amount of critical damage resistance when wearing 5 or more pieces of medium armor. Something offensive would be X amount of physical penetration if wearing 5 or more pieces etc.

Millz · July 2018

Ive opened up a couple threads on medium armor, shuffle and the state of being melee stam in this meta and this is basically my conclusion

The problem

Right now where pvp currently sits everyones defense is way to high and still able to put out decent damage. Medium armors only defense is mobility and roll dodging. Due to the fact that many things in this game are undodgable and the fact that the medium armor skill "evasion" is actually terrible. See they nerfed evasion back when heavy armor could use it and never reverted it back to help actual medium armor users. Medium right now is high risk low reward where as heavy and light armor (light amor is strong because wards and healing utilities and just overall larger "kit") are essentailly just base. I by no means light armor or heavy is the problem and its not the problem lies in that there should be more damage and mobility behind medium armor to combat these 2 armor users

The solution

Also as people have mention foward momemtums immunity duration is about where shuffle should be too. I say 1 second per medium piece with a reduction in cost as well as a buff to the actual dodge chance. If they revert major evasion to 20% then they must make the nightblade skill mirage minor evasion. Next the sneak passive. Its useless pve and pvp it should be something there that grants either A.) some sort of sustain while sprinting and roll dodging because you cannot gain stamina while using where magicka can. B.) some sort of defense or healing. Lastly I believe the dmg passive should be bumped up to 18% ~ ish. Only because that would help heals and you would actually feel more like a glass cannon right now medium is just glass no cannon

Side note

Now I personally think that no class should have their own wards (hardened ward and sun shield) but those should actually be replaced with something like wings or shimmering shield like dk's and wardens to help combat magic casters but thats another disscusion......

Anyways these are some of my thoughts if youve read through id love to discuss the topic more thanks

Millz · July 2018

Carbonised wrote: »

Zelos wrote: »

I enjoy medium armor but I feel like I'm suffocating in it. PvE and PvP the shuffle needs at least 4 to 5 seconds

You get 23 seconds of major evasion, which is very powerful and long lasting. You're not supposed to re-cast shuffle every 2.5 seconds, the snare and immobilization immunity is extremely powerful in PvP, and you're not supposed to have that up permanently. You asking for perma-immunity to snares and immobilization is way out of balance.

And this ability works at its full power under battlespirit, whereas light armor shield is cut in half for PvP, which is something you forget to mention. Unless you're a shield stacking sorc, that light armor shield is worth nothing in PvP, and I'll happily trade it for a 23 second passive dodge chance and 2.5 seconds of snare and immobilization immunity.

Medium armor is perfectly fine and on par with light armor. Of course you get better survivability from heavy, that's what heavy armor is for. And you also lose a lot of damage potential. The choice is yours.

Good points but everything based around medium armor is mobility and we cant even do that. The original nerf to shuffle was because heavy was able to use it too. They should revert back to the old 20% and give the medium armor 1 sec per medium piece for immunity. But by your logic shields arent meant to be up 100% of the time but it sure feels like when i 1v1 a magblade or a magsorc they are and i struggle to keep myself from being snared and to even get on top of them to do damage. Where as dk's can perma block and keep you rooted and templars will breath your burst away. If you give medium its mobility and slightly increase the dmg from the passive. THE ONLY REASON I SAY THIS is because summerset indirectly buffed magic with light attack damage and nerfed stam light and heavies. So buff medium armor damage to keep them in line and heavy will stay the same medicore damage. Its a problem when you run stam and think of medium being the lesser choice over heavy

Jeezye · July 2018

Definatly agree medium and shuffle need buffs. I see this is also going into the direction of forward momentum nerf, which I'm waiting to see for two patches now as well.

Slick_007 · July 2018

Millz wrote: »

Next the sneak passive. Its useless pve

you not using something does not make it useless.

Strider__Roshin · July 2018

Slick_007 wrote: »

Millz wrote: »

Next the sneak passive. Its useless pve

you not using something does not make it useless.

He meant useless in the content that matters. I'm sure it's quite useful for RPers.

Carbonised · July 2018

Daus wrote: »

Slick_007 wrote: »

Millz wrote: »

Next the sneak passive. Its useless pve

you not using something does not make it useless.

He meant useless in the content that matters. I'm sure it's quite useful for RPers.

Despite your condescending wording, sneak passive is useful in many cases. Ask any stamblade, for instance.
It's also extremely useful in legerdemain situations, even my MagDK has a full set of medium armor that I use with the passives for stealing, looting and backstabbing, which is gameplay that many people take part in.
So no, it is not merely "useful for RPers" as you try and make it.

Edit: And I forgot to mention there's a whole new dungeon coming up where sneaking is one of the main mechanics as well.

Strider__Roshin · July 2018

Carbonised wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Slick_007 wrote: »

Millz wrote: »

Next the sneak passive. Its useless pve

you not using something does not make it useless.

He meant useless in the content that matters. I'm sure it's quite useful for RPers.

Despite your condescending wording, sneak passive is useful in many cases. Ask any stamblade, for instance.
It's also extremely useful in legerdemain situations, even my MagDK has a full set of medium armor that I use with the passives for stealing, looting and backstabbing, which is gameplay that many people take part in.
So no, it is not merely "useful for RPers" as you try and make it.

Edit: And I forgot to mention there's a whole new dungeon coming up where sneaking is one of the main mechanics as well.

I'm a stamblade. Still think it's useless.

Carbonised · July 2018

Daus wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Slick_007 wrote: »

Millz wrote: »

Next the sneak passive. Its useless pve

you not using something does not make it useless.

He meant useless in the content that matters. I'm sure it's quite useful for RPers.

Despite your condescending wording, sneak passive is useful in many cases. Ask any stamblade, for instance.
It's also extremely useful in legerdemain situations, even my MagDK has a full set of medium armor that I use with the passives for stealing, looting and backstabbing, which is gameplay that many people take part in.
So no, it is not merely "useful for RPers" as you try and make it.

Edit: And I forgot to mention there's a whole new dungeon coming up where sneaking is one of the main mechanics as well.

I'm a stamblade. Still think it's useless.

Most stamblades don't, so I guess that's a l2p.

Strider__Roshin · July 2018

Carbonised wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Slick_007 wrote: »

Millz wrote: »

Next the sneak passive. Its useless pve

you not using something does not make it useless.

He meant useless in the content that matters. I'm sure it's quite useful for RPers.

Despite your condescending wording, sneak passive is useful in many cases. Ask any stamblade, for instance.
It's also extremely useful in legerdemain situations, even my MagDK has a full set of medium armor that I use with the passives for stealing, looting and backstabbing, which is gameplay that many people take part in.
So no, it is not merely "useful for RPers" as you try and make it.

Edit: And I forgot to mention there's a whole new dungeon coming up where sneaking is one of the main mechanics as well.

I'm a stamblade. Still think it's useless.

Most stamblades don't, so I guess that's a l2p.

Me not needing a specific passive is a l2p issue? I don't think you know what l2p means...

Extinct_Solo_Player · July 2018

I love how this community always wants to nerf one morph into the ground just because they think its op and then complain theres no variety in skills to use.

DDuke · July 2018

Athletics
Increases the Movement Speed bonus of Sprint by 3% for each piece of Medium Armor equipped.

Reduces the cost of Roll Dodge by 4% for each piece of Medium Armor equipped.

There, I fixed medium armor.

Seriously though, I think just having a certain 40m undodgeable/unblockable CC that shall not be named dodgeable would do wonders towards making medium armor more viable across the board.