Buff to medium armor?

John_Falstaff

SilverWF wrote: »

Medium armor is a king in the PVP now and in PVE that guys provides sht ton of DPS
What are you talking about?

That's in those cases when they're not lying dead on the ground and provide zero DPS because they had to be close up and personal (medium almost always implies melee DPS) to bosses and got all the damage in their face. Which is increasingly often with latest content. In PvE, if you dodge roll all day long, you usually don't have stamina and opportunity to do much damage; you can't get away with burst there, you actually have to do sustained.

The-Baconator

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Zelos wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Zelos wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Increase the duration of the snare immunity of Shuffle to 4 seconds and reduce the cost down of Evasion abd morphs to ~2500 range.
Revert the Evasion nerf so Major Evasion is back to 20%.
Up the Weapon Damage buff to 14% from 12%.
Add a Crit resistance passive in place of the sneak passives and move the sneak passives over to Legerdemain.

Reasonable enough buffs without being overwhelmingly powerful either. Shuffle gets some minor buffs to it, even if Forward Momentum remains superior for general survivability and snare removal, Medium Armor gets some small QoL uses with the Crit resistance and Damage buffs and everyone benefits from Sneak Passives being moved to Legerdemain.

LOL @ "reasonable buffs". See if you think these are reasonable, too:

1) Reduce cost of Harness Magicka to ~2500 range.
2) Increase size of Harness Magicka damage shield by 33%.
3) Up the Light Armor Spell Penetration bonus from ~5000 to ~5800.
4) Replace Light Armor Spell Resistance passive with Crit Resistance.

If you're OK with Light Armor getting those buffs, then I guess you can have your Medium Armor buffs.

I dont see how this would solve anything, you would just raise the bar up and move everything up more, and medium armor would still have not moved close to other armor weights. LA has so much useful passives, spell resistance, spell pen, reduce cost, mag regen, and a shield which harness I've seen at 9k and dampen at like 11k and some people only use 1 ward onto of healing ward. Some LA only use healing ward and are really good still, LA is in a good spot if that a great spot. Heavy armor is in a good spot to, the only reason people complain about people using SOOO much heavy armor and why its "meta" is because medium armor is becoming less viable so everyone is going heavy armor.

You've kinda missed my point. Medium armor isn't any weaker than Light, and doesn't need to be buffed. Also, I would trade Harness Magicka for Shuffle in a heartbeat.

LA has way more passives that make it way better I would trade 12% weapon damage for 5k armor pen anytime, it's the reason magicka is at again a way more advantage then stam. My stamplar dps gets 3.8k pen solo, in group with alkosh and infused crusher I get like 11k forcing me to run the lover stone at all times, while magicka gets to run more damage while still at pen cap while being ranged and with shields, and you are telling me you want a RNG defense, rather then a shield thats 100% reliable when you need to absorb damage while I have to pray my shuffle dodges the damage with RNG. Its not a argument those are the facts.

Lol, Magicka is not advantaged over Stamina and hasn't been since the DK Bats era of 2014. ALL the top streamers play Stamina builds now, even top Sorcs like Irylia switched to Stamina Warden. Stamina builds, especially Nightblades and Wardens, do more DAMAGE, period. PvP has been dominated by Stamina builds for years. The last thing you guys need or deserve is a bunch of buffs!

Sorc is miles ahead of classes like stam dk\temp\sorc for solo\duo play. People do overhype how easy an OP runecage makes sorc but it's undeniably VERY strong right now. The reason why small scallers (read people looking to take 4-6 people and fight potentially+5x their numbers) prefer classes such as stamden over sorc is that other classes can simply do more at the same time. Yes sorc can have competative AoE dps in PvP, good single target, or good utility from things like negate + roots, but you can't do them at the same time, or even do two of them well at the same time. Compare that to stamden where you can have decent single target burst while having REALLY good AoE burst, a ridiculous AoE damage\CC\mitigation ult, and superb group utility from abilities they'll be slotting anyway and it's obvious what's better once your concerns go beyond single target and solo surivability.

As for the issue of armor, medium definitely needs some help. Most medium damage sets are not even remotely competitive with the best heavy damage sets while someone decked out in medium armor is less tanky with less mobility than someone in heavy that goes with forward momentum. In addition to this, one of the core defensive mechanisms of medium armor (dodge roll) as a mechanic is rather unrealiable when most ultimates are undodgable and things like sloads\valkyn are as common as they are. That's saying nothing of the effect things like 100% uptime +50% defiles, defiles that will chunk you for 40% of your hp out of stealth (incap), and long range undodgable CCs like rune cage have on medium armor builds.

At the very least I would like to see the difference in mobility rectified by doubling the duration of the shuffle snare immunity along with a buff to survivability\sustain in some form. Sadly I can't think of a way to do the latter without buffing stam nbs...

Zelos

SilverWF wrote: »

How about 'no'?
We constantly meets medium armored guys who can dodge roll all day long and deal freaking amount of damage at the same time

Heavy armor is the pvp king, while stamina medium armor deals great dps they simply have so much problems with survival. Melee, no shields, low max health(due to all medium armor for best dps, which will not provide undaunted buff), has sustain issues and mostly has a heavy attack builds.

Amdar_Godkiller

Carbonised wrote: »

The problem is not medium armor, which is fine, but Forward Momentum, which is an extremely overpowered skill in a skill tree with many powerful skills. Major buff for a long time, consistent HoTs ticking, as well as snare removal and 8 secs of snare immunity is extremely powerful, way too powerful. No, medium armor shouldn't get that kind of buff as well.

Wings have gotten a snare immunity of 2 seconds, that's hardly comparable. If anything, Forward momentum should be nerfed to 2 secs immunity as well, seeing as other snare immunities share that timer.

No medium armor is not fine, and forward momentum is essentially the magicka morph of momentum by default for almost every class since Rally is the only non-class stamina burst heal.

Rally needs to be the base skill so forward momentum can be utilized by medium armor builds.

thankyourat

Zelos wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Increase the duration of the snare immunity of Shuffle to 4 seconds and reduce the cost down of Evasion abd morphs to ~2500 range.
Revert the Evasion nerf so Major Evasion is back to 20%.
Up the Weapon Damage buff to 14% from 12%.
Add a Crit resistance passive in place of the sneak passives and move the sneak passives over to Legerdemain.

Reasonable enough buffs without being overwhelmingly powerful either. Shuffle gets some minor buffs to it, even if Forward Momentum remains superior for general survivability and snare removal, Medium Armor gets some small QoL uses with the Crit resistance and Damage buffs and everyone benefits from Sneak Passives being moved to Legerdemain.

LOL @ "reasonable buffs". See if you think these are reasonable, too:

1) Reduce cost of Harness Magicka to ~2500 range.
2) Increase size of Harness Magicka damage shield by 33%.
3) Up the Light Armor Spell Penetration bonus from ~5000 to ~5800.
4) Replace Light Armor Spell Resistance passive with Crit Resistance.

If you're OK with Light Armor getting those buffs, then I guess you can have your Medium Armor buffs.

I dont see how this would solve anything, you would just raise the bar up and move everything up more, and medium armor would still have not moved close to other armor weights. LA has so much useful passives, spell resistance, spell pen, reduce cost, mag regen, and a shield which harness I've seen at 9k and dampen at like 11k and some people only use 1 ward onto of healing ward. Some LA only use healing ward and are really good still, LA is in a good spot if that a great spot. Heavy armor is in a good spot to, the only reason people complain about people using SOOO much heavy armor and why its "meta" is because medium armor is becoming less viable so everyone is going heavy armor.

Medium armor and light armor have the same passives for the most part. Actually medium has everything light armor offer plus movement speed and dodge roll cost reduction. Light offers spell pen which is slightly more damage than medium but the weapon damage from medium increases your healing as well as your damage. The main difference is light has shields and medium has mobility and evasion each will be better than the other in certain situations.

For instance if you have a 9k shield and someone is spamming 10k Snipes at you your shields will get constantly destroyed. now if you combine that with someone spamming you with roots to where you can't move you are going to die pretty quickly. Situations like this happen all the time if you PvP solo and medium would be better in this situation.

Light has it's benefits as well though 1v1 shields can actually provide great survivability. Shields are also strong in AvA because when two groups fight they are generally spamming aoes at each other which are undodgeable so a shield allows you too survive while staying in your ball group. So for small scale medium is better and large scale and dueling light is better.

John_Falstaff

@thankyourat , you're speaking from PvP standpoint though. In PvE, major evasion is useless, and shields matter because bosses (not counting cases when players fail to follow mechanics) don't repeatedly snipe one-shots. In addition, in PvE, sustained damage matters, so in medium armor, jumping away from the boss each time he does a potential one-shot is a big DPS loss. Roll-dodging is an active mitigation that doesn't play well with dealing high sustained damage.

Baconlad

I think dodge roll cost increase needs to go. It severely hinders mag more than stam. If you want just increase the cost, but don't make it cost more per dodge roll.
OR you can revert the passive dodge chance of shuffle back to what it was.

Most of medium nerfs were done as a result of nightblades and their rolling around with massive damage tucked into instant cast abilities. No other class has that. Night blade would dodge cancel three times in a row and hit massive burst and boom ur dead. Even while u were inside of a massive zerg they could mitigate through dodges and deal the burst through dodges. Stamplar has main cast time skill, stam DKs / wardens / sorcs use either flurry or wrecking blow. On top of all that mitigation through dodges...you had cloak.

All medium armor nerfs were done through attempting to Nerf the dodges of nightblades. In affect hurting everyone else.

Solution? Either Nerf nightblades spamable damage, since it's instant, or force nightblades into flurry spam. Then remove the defile from incap because it's plain broken.

Remove all healing while cloaked, and buff medium back to former glory. Bam you've just fixed medium armor

Baconlad

I will say it's incredibly sad that I fear to dodge roll as a medium stamplar just as much as I fear dodge rolling as a heavy stamplar.

Does a magsorc fear casting her shields? And magplar fear spamming her HTD? Or a magblade fear spamming cloak? So why does a medium user have to absolutely fear dodge spamming when half the skills are undodgable anyway and you are only mitigating damage WHILE u are dodging...cloak lasts for seconds, shields last six, HTD is instant but heals to full. Dodge roll spam was supposed to be how stamina SURVIVED. We were supposed to be squishy while dealing damage and unhittabke when we wanted to be.

IAVITNI

The-Baconator wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Zelos wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Zelos wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Increase the duration of the snare immunity of Shuffle to 4 seconds and reduce the cost down of Evasion abd morphs to ~2500 range.
Revert the Evasion nerf so Major Evasion is back to 20%.
Up the Weapon Damage buff to 14% from 12%.
Add a Crit resistance passive in place of the sneak passives and move the sneak passives over to Legerdemain.

Reasonable enough buffs without being overwhelmingly powerful either. Shuffle gets some minor buffs to it, even if Forward Momentum remains superior for general survivability and snare removal, Medium Armor gets some small QoL uses with the Crit resistance and Damage buffs and everyone benefits from Sneak Passives being moved to Legerdemain.

LOL @ "reasonable buffs". See if you think these are reasonable, too:

1) Reduce cost of Harness Magicka to ~2500 range.
2) Increase size of Harness Magicka damage shield by 33%.
3) Up the Light Armor Spell Penetration bonus from ~5000 to ~5800.
4) Replace Light Armor Spell Resistance passive with Crit Resistance.

If you're OK with Light Armor getting those buffs, then I guess you can have your Medium Armor buffs.

I dont see how this would solve anything, you would just raise the bar up and move everything up more, and medium armor would still have not moved close to other armor weights. LA has so much useful passives, spell resistance, spell pen, reduce cost, mag regen, and a shield which harness I've seen at 9k and dampen at like 11k and some people only use 1 ward onto of healing ward. Some LA only use healing ward and are really good still, LA is in a good spot if that a great spot. Heavy armor is in a good spot to, the only reason people complain about people using SOOO much heavy armor and why its "meta" is because medium armor is becoming less viable so everyone is going heavy armor.

You've kinda missed my point. Medium armor isn't any weaker than Light, and doesn't need to be buffed. Also, I would trade Harness Magicka for Shuffle in a heartbeat.

LA has way more passives that make it way better I would trade 12% weapon damage for 5k armor pen anytime, it's the reason magicka is at again a way more advantage then stam. My stamplar dps gets 3.8k pen solo, in group with alkosh and infused crusher I get like 11k forcing me to run the lover stone at all times, while magicka gets to run more damage while still at pen cap while being ranged and with shields, and you are telling me you want a RNG defense, rather then a shield thats 100% reliable when you need to absorb damage while I have to pray my shuffle dodges the damage with RNG. Its not a argument those are the facts.

Lol, Magicka is not advantaged over Stamina and hasn't been since the DK Bats era of 2014. ALL the top streamers play Stamina builds now, even top Sorcs like Irylia switched to Stamina Warden. Stamina builds, especially Nightblades and Wardens, do more DAMAGE, period. PvP has been dominated by Stamina builds for years. The last thing you guys need or deserve is a bunch of buffs!

Sorc is miles ahead of classes like stam dk\temp\sorc for solo\duo play. People do overhype how easy an OP runecage makes sorc but it's undeniably VERY strong right now. The reason why small scallers (read people looking to take 4-6 people and fight potentially+5x their numbers) prefer classes such as stamden over sorc is that other classes can simply do more at the same time. Yes sorc can have competative AoE dps in PvP, good single target, or good utility from things like negate + roots, but you can't do them at the same time, or even do two of them well at the same time. Compare that to stamden where you can have decent single target burst while having REALLY good AoE burst, a ridiculous AoE damage\CC\mitigation ult, and superb group utility from abilities they'll be slotting anyway and it's obvious what's better once your concerns go beyond single target and solo surivability.

As for the issue of armor, medium definitely needs some help. Most medium damage sets are not even remotely competitive with the best heavy damage sets while someone decked out in medium armor is less tanky with less mobility than someone in heavy that goes with forward momentum. In addition to this, one of the core defensive mechanisms of medium armor (dodge roll) as a mechanic is rather unrealiable when most ultimates are undodgable and things like sloads\valkyn are as common as they are. That's saying nothing of the effect things like 100% uptime +50% defiles, defiles that will chunk you for 40% of your hp out of stealth (incap), and long range undodgable CCs like rune cage have on medium armor builds.

At the very least I would like to see the difference in mobility rectified by doubling the duration of the shuffle snare immunity along with a buff to survivability\sustain in some form. Sadly I can't think of a way to do the latter without buffing stam nbs...

Before medium actually gets addressed, Cloak has to be looked at. It's the only reason why medium nightblade works right now.

Based on that, changes to dodgeroll can be more aggresive. However, the following can easily be done without overpowering medium nightblades, since they are still very squishy outside of Cloak:

Natural Impen/Crit damage reduction
Built-in AoE reduction that increases while dodge rolling
Medium Passive increasing ALL movement speed by half it's current values-value stays the same for sprint
Reduce Shuffle cost to allow greater access to snare removal while still keeping value of Forward Momentum

All the above would really help out medium. The most important one is actually the movement increase since that would make the biggest difference in dueling.

Then you could add in some open-world changes like making Sprint "free" for 3 seconds by returning up to 3 seconds worth of Sprint cost after sprinting (this makes repositioning less taxing for the "mobile" armor) and reduce the need to build into sustain by making the first roll dodge "free" for medium builds using the same mechanics.

Rewarding smart-gameplay should be the direction of balance. Punishing players for using mechanics that the Devs put in is bad game design, but it seems to be ZoS' preferred approach.

SilverWF

John_Falstaff wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

Medium armor is a king in the PVP now and in PVE that guys provides sht ton of DPS
What are you talking about?

That's in those cases when they're not lying dead on the ground and provide zero DPS because they had to be close up and personal (medium almost always implies melee DPS) to bosses and got all the damage in their face. Which is increasingly often with latest content. In PvE, if you dodge roll all day long, you usually don't have stamina and opportunity to do much damage; you can't get away with burst there, you actually have to do sustained.

We are talking about whole game.
Even little buff to stamina DDs would just ruin PVP (like it wasn't ruined before, lol)

We already have a "funny guys" dodge rolling all day long with no efforts. What else you want?

John_Falstaff

@SilverWF , easy - I want to be viable in PvE. Right now, stamina DD is ruined in PvE for the sake of some semblance of PvP balance. So, we're talking about whole game, but it's okay to leave stamina as it is now in PvE? If we're talking whole game, then offer your ideas on how to fix things in PvE. So far, you're voting not to buff medium armor because it'll break PvP - well, what's your proposed alternative?

jbjondeaueb17_ESO

Baconlad wrote: »

I will say it's incredibly sad that I fear to dodge roll as a medium stamplar just as much as I fear dodge rolling as a heavy stamplar.

Does a magsorc fear casting her shields? And magplar fear spamming her HTD? Or a magblade fear spamming cloak? So why does a medium user have to absolutely fear dodge spamming when half the skills are undodgable anyway and you are only mitigating damage WHILE u are dodging...cloak lasts for seconds, shields last six, HTD is instant but heals to full. Dodge roll spam was supposed to be how stamina SURVIVED. We were supposed to be squishy while dealing damage and unhittabke when we wanted to be.

As a magplar, yes i fear to use HTD because, apart being alone, you can have to cast it 3 or 4 times easily to heal yourself and not somebody else in a large radius around you.HTSis NOT a self heal, it's a "smart" (hum..., from ZOS point of view) heal.

Abysswarrior45

Vaneur wrote: »

I'd just add something like... "reduced the roll dodge cost penalty duration by X% for each piece of medium armor equiped" instead the sneak passive... btw I agree that shuffle demands some help, its stamina cost is too high and the snare inmunity is too short.

no because hardly anything is dodgeable now anyway

Abysswarrior45

Carbonised wrote: »

Zelos wrote: »

I enjoy medium armor but I feel like I'm suffocating in it. PvE and PvP the shuffle needs at least 4 to 5 seconds

You get 23 seconds of major evasion, which is very powerful and long lasting. You're not supposed to re-cast shuffle every 2.5 seconds, the snare and immobilization immunity is extremely powerful in PvP, and you're not supposed to have that up permanently. You asking for perma-immunity to snares and immobilization is way out of balance.

And this ability works at its full power under battlespirit, whereas light armor shield is cut in half for PvP, which is something you forget to mention. Unless you're a shield stacking sorc, that light armor shield is worth nothing in PvP, and I'll happily trade it for a 23 second passive dodge chance and 2.5 seconds of snare and immobilization immunity.

Medium armor is perfectly fine and on par with light armor. Of course you get better survivability from heavy, that's what heavy armor is for. And you also lose a lot of damage potential. The choice is yours.

Major evasion is not that powerful considering most forms of damage people use now are undodgeable, be it stacking dots or skills in general which can't be dodged i.e.) Rune cage, steelnado, jabs, fear, rune cage, fossilize, breath, soul tether, destro ult, soul assault, skoria, zaan, sloads (which is changing but that set needs to be removed), implosion, potl, force pulse, endless fury, total dark, permafrost, and of course any and all dots that are applied to you will tick you down into nothing. Purge is not viable on stam builds because it takes up much needed slots for skills and its too expensive.

Medium armor builds rely on mobility and you have to recast shuffle a lot to maintain your mobility–not every 2.5 seconds, but a lot–or you die. A 5 sec snare immunity request is not unreasonable nor is it forever you drama queen who struggles reading.

SilverWF

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@SilverWF , easy - I want to be viable in PvE. Right now, stamina DD is ruined in PvE for the sake of some semblance of PvP balance. So, we're talking about whole game, but it's okay to leave stamina as it is now in PvE? If we're talking whole game, then offer your ideas on how to fix things in PvE. So far, you're voting not to buff medium armor because it'll break PvP - well, what's your proposed alternative?

Stamina DDs are extremely powerful on PVE. Do we playing the same game even?

Probably you didn't have proper gearl/lvl but it doesn't viable reason to buff something

Ungeared and underleveled Mag DDs are sucks too. Let's buff them?

John_Falstaff

SilverWF wrote: »

Stamina DDs are extremely powerful on PVE. Do we playing the same game even?

Probably you didn't have proper gearl/lvl but it doesn't viable reason to buff something

Mm-m, don't know about that. You sure you're actually playing ESO? Stamina damage is struggling in PvE, unless you've only seen it doing dummy parses. In that sense, yes, 'extremely powerful', as long as you're only fighting training dummies. Maybe that's what PvE is about for you, then yes, we're playing different games.

Also, I love those assumptions about my gear and level.

SilverWF

John_Falstaff wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

Stamina DDs are extremely powerful on PVE. Do we playing the same game even?

Probably you didn't have proper gearl/lvl but it doesn't viable reason to buff something

Mm-m, don't know about that. You sure you're actually playing ESO? Stamina damage is struggling in PvE, unless you've only seen it doing dummy parses. In that sense, yes, 'extremely powerful', as long as you're only fighting training dummies. Maybe that's what PvE is about for you, then yes, we're playing different games.

Also, I love those assumptions about my gear and level.

Yesterday I was in the vet Banished Cells 2 with 2 guys. 1st one was stamina DD (NB or DK - can't remember), 2nd one was mag DD (NB).
Their CP lvl was ~800, they both did ~ same DPS (44k+)
Their gear:


Medium armor was greatly buffed for the past 2 years. I'd even say: overbuffed.

John_Falstaff

@SilverWF , erm, I hope you did give some thought to the fact that vBCII isn't awfully different from a training dummy. Yes, we're most definitely playing different game if you feel it's a representative benchmark of stamina's performance in PvE.

What I'm talking about is the new trials - vAS, vHoF, vCR, and even some older (vHRC HM is a good example). In endgame content, stamina (and it's medium armor and almost always melee) extremely vulnerable and can't keep sustained damage, partly because it's force to roll-dodge away from one-shots a lot, partly because mechanics often require range. There's a reason why prominent score runs are predominantly magicka DDs. I'm not saying that changing medium armor will solve all problems (range-favoring mechanics still remain), but it's one thing to consider.

(And by the way, to compare sets from your example. Magicka has more choices for its sets for damage, so your last day's companion could swap Siroria for BSW or something else without taking a huge hit. On another hand, Arms of Relequen provides a great damage boost other sets can't compete with, and that's a big issue: when this set fails, stamina fails with it. Even not in trials - try running Darkshade Caverns 2 with it and see bull netch punishing you for using AoR by having short windows of opportunity when its vulnerable; Arms of Relequen takes minimum of 20 seconds of damage ramp-up, and that's with perfect rotation. Diversity of gear is also a huge problem.)

JobooAGS

SilverWF wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

Stamina DDs are extremely powerful on PVE. Do we playing the same game even?

Probably you didn't have proper gearl/lvl but it doesn't viable reason to buff something

Mm-m, don't know about that. You sure you're actually playing ESO? Stamina damage is struggling in PvE, unless you've only seen it doing dummy parses. In that sense, yes, 'extremely powerful', as long as you're only fighting training dummies. Maybe that's what PvE is about for you, then yes, we're playing different games.

Also, I love those assumptions about my gear and level.

Yesterday I was in the vet Banished Cells 2 with 2 guys. 1st one was stamina DD (NB or DK - can't remember), 2nd one was mag DD (NB).
Their CP lvl was ~800, they both did ~ same DPS (44k+)
Their gear:


Medium armor was greatly buffed for the past 2 years. I'd even say: overbuffed.

????
A melee stam did the same damage as a ranged mag and your conclusion is that medium armor is over buffed? If anything melee should do more damage than ranged, and if tgat was your sample size, you should conclude that medium needs another buff.

JobooAGS

Stam in pve is carried by the relequen set and to an extent, the vma bow.

SilverWF

@John_Falstaff I hope now you can see how wrong you are, right?
Even without understanding that, you just pointed to the REAL problem: dungeon and trials Mechs
So, what a deal to player's armor or spec if he forced to be in most dangerous zone: melee?

Do you really think, that mag DKs and Templars has better life, because they are 'mag'? Lol, no. Both of them are forced to be in close range, because their spammables (Whip and Jabs) has very low range, unlike of Sorcs (well, sorcs didn't have spammable at all...) and NBs
And yes, they are suffer there a lot, I've seen that numerous times. Even if they are 'mag'

And BC2 has plenty of crazy bosses: that guy, who constantly running away to spheres, daedroth "I'll spam the whole room with fire" and, sure, last boss.
This dungeon is very hard for ungeared and underleveled players, it's faaaaaar from being "just like test dummy".

And if talk about 'diversity' - stamina DDs can respec and regear to the bow builds. They are pretty strong either.

JobooAGS wrote: »

????
A melee stam did the same damage as a ranged mag and your conclusion is that medium armor is over buffed? If anything melee should do more damage than ranged, and if tgat was your sample size, you should conclude that medium needs another buff.

If you want to actually deal MORE damage than ranged (any, btw, bows too), so all speed boosters and, sure, gap closers must be just removed from the game or any ranged wouldn't has a chance in PVP.
Logical, right?

JobooAGS wrote: »

Stam in pve is carried by the relequen set and to an extent, the vma bow.

Lol, so mag DDs don't need vMA staves and Trial gear, right? They can do 40k+ just in Julianos and any other random crap, ooookaaaay

There is 'Edit' button, you know right?
Use it or just didn't talk to me.

JobooAGS

SilverWF wrote: »

@John_Falstaff I hope now you can see how wrong you are, right?
Even without understanding that, you just pointed to the REAL problem: dungeon and trials Mechs
So, what a deal to player's armor or spec if he forced to be in most dangerous zone: melee?

Do you really think, that mag DKs and Templars has better life, because they are 'mag'? Lol, no. Both of them are forced to be in close range, because their spammables (Whip and Jabs) has very low range, unlike of Sorcs (well, sorcs didn't have spammable at all...) and NBs
And yes, they are suffer there a lot, I've seen that numerous times. Even if they are 'mag'

And BC2 has plenty of crazy bosses: that guy, who constantly running away to spheres, daedroth "I'll spam the whole room with fire" and, sure, last boss.
This dungeon is very hard for ungeared and underleveled players, it's faaaaaar from being "just like test dummy".

And if talk about 'diversity' - stamina DDs can respec and regear to the bow builds. They are pretty strong either.

Ranged stam when compared to ranged mag, well... is lacking. Otherwise you would see them more on the leaderboards pvewise. Pvpwise, there is a reason why bow users stick to zergs/ganking and not solo/small group like any other build/spec

irstarkey57

It should at least have a physical penetration bonus like light armor having 5k spell pen. I mean wtf.

Beamer_Miasma

Maybe the reason ZoS doesn't listen to these proposals is that every single "buff medium armor" thread I have seen proposes to nerf the sneak passive. You should poke your head out of the BGs and Cyr sometime and realize that the number of people who sneak around in full med is larger, likely not just in percentages but by orders of magnitude, than the entire PvP population on your server. As long as your buff medium armor proposals include the suggestion to remove the sneak passive, ZoS is going to send your proposal straight to /dev/null where it belongs.

Try coming up with an idea that doesn't actually mean a nerf to the majority of medium armor characters and who knows, they might be a little more receptive. The sneak passive is the raison d'etre for medium armor. Without it, there really isn't much of a point to have more than 2 armor weights other than ES tradition which is probably not that big a factor in ZoSes considerations.

SilverWF

How does mechanics relevant to the ARMOR?

SilverWF wrote: »

the REAL problem: dungeon and trials Mechs
So, what a deal to player's armor or spec if he forced to be in most dangerous zone: melee?

Do you really think, that mag DKs and Templars has better life, because they are 'mag'? Lol, no. Both of them are forced to be in close range, because their spammables (Whip and Jabs) has very low range, unlike of Sorcs (well, sorcs didn't have spammable at all...) and NBs
And yes, they are suffer there a lot, I've seen that numerous times. Even if they are 'mag'

John_Falstaff

SilverWF wrote: »

@John_Falstaff I hope now you can see how wrong you are, right?
Even without understanding that, you just pointed to the REAL problem: dungeon and trials Mechs
So, what a deal to player's armor or spec if he forced to be in most dangerous zone: melee?.

So, you've understood that you're wrong and not trying to state anymore that stamina is powerful in PvE? So there is a problem? It's a good start. Actually, @JobooAGS made a good point for you - just think about it: on a basically dummy-test, ranged magicka did same damage as melee stamina, both in meta gear. That should say something about how bad stamina is doing, considering that in more difficult content than Banished Cells melee actually has to do much more than just stand and monotonously hack at the boss. (And yes, I did vBC2 HM probably couple of weeks ago on pledge and not sure how it's troublesome. Maybe matter of practice; spheres and daedroths are rather quick to deal with. I'll admit that for pug groups it may be difficult, but I assume you four were familiar with it and weren't struggling.)

But we strayed away from our topic, and that's medium armor. (And yes, mag DK is impaired by being melee regardless of magicka or stamina, and templar, I hear, now has ranged spammable with Elemental Weapons. But those classes have serious problems on their own that must be solved separately.) See, you're putting words into my mouth; I wasn't saying that medium armor is the only cause and only solution of stamina's problem. It's definitely one part of big picture though, because in general case, medium armor implies melee stamina, and melee stamina happens to be a troubled spot for a number of reasons, one of which is the fatal combination of both standing in vulnerable spot and not having reliable protection from damage it's exposed to. Shuffle, as it goes, is useless in PvE. So, since we can't ask ZOS to refrain from designing melee-hostile content, and we can't all respec to ranged without loss of damage (back to your tour in vBC2, your melee stamina already was dealing same damage as ranged magicka; in a trial, if you have a choice of magicka and bow/bow stamina with -less- damage, the choice is obvious), medium armor is naturally an attractive thing to try and help stamina's survivability. Mind, I wasn't making strong suggestions on what to change, I don't know yet how to change armor without hitting PvP, but some things about medium armor are definitely not helpful for PvE, including Shuffle and sneaking.

John_Falstaff

SilverWF wrote: »

Lol, so mag DDs don't need vMA staves and Trial gear, right? They can do 40k+ just in Julianos and any other random crap, ooookaaaay

You're even using those? vMA staff on backbar adds ~2k DPS, maybe - nice, but not game-changing, and now that staves count for two slots, the difference is probably even a bit smaller. Also, Burning Spellweave is a fair substitute for Siroria for instance (and I'm yet to see something that gives boost comparable to Arms of Relequen). So yes, much less affected by gear choice, especially in latest trials where outdamaging stamina isn't much of a problem.

SilverWF

John_Falstaff wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

@John_Falstaff I hope now you can see how wrong you are, right?
Even without understanding that, you just pointed to the REAL problem: dungeon and trials Mechs
So, what a deal to player's armor or spec if he forced to be in most dangerous zone: melee?.

So, you've understood that you're wrong and not trying to state anymore that stamina is powerful in PvE?

Not, it IS powerful. That was my goal from the start: to give YOU understanding, that not armor is a problem, but MECHS.

And I've answered to that guy, I has no any will to repeat myself again, while ruining all your arguments.

Just to make it short:
1. Stamina DDs are extremely good in PVE and PVP and now equal or even better than mag DDs
2. Even little buff to stamina specs would completely ruin PVP
3. Main problem is mechs, not the armor

Try to beat this, totally sure, you wouldn't.

John_Falstaff

SilverWF wrote: »

Not, it IS powerful. That was my goal from the start: to give YOU understanding, that not armor is a problem, but MECHS.

And I've answered to that guy, I has no any will to repeat myself again, while ruining all your arguments.

Just to make it short:
1. Stamina DDs are extremely good in PVE and PVP and now equal or even better than mag DDs
2. Even little buff to stamina specs would completely ruin PVP
3. Main problem is mechs, not the armor

Try to beat this, totally sure, you wouldn't.

So-o, to summarize your point, stamina is powerful but mechanics prevent it from showing its power? You see, in my book, power isn't a number on a dummy - it's ability to solve problems game sets before builds. If a build can only show itself well on training dummy but struggles in end game scenarios - it can't be called powerful, I'm afraid.

As for your points, then I'm not sure what's to beat here.

1. I'm not sure where your "extremely good" comes from. Dummy? Non-DLC vet dungeons? RP, maybe?
2. Not the point of current discussion. Not sure why you brought it here; I wasn't arguing that to begin with.
3. Armor is one of possible ways of dealing with mechs, being inherently a part of combat mechanics. I've asked you to come up with your own suggestions, but I fear I won't get anything constructive. Everyone respecing to bow/bow doesn't count since then magicka builds outperform those builds while retaining better survivability. Anything else?

jbjondeaueb17_ESO

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@SilverWF , erm, I hope you did give some thought to the fact that vBCII isn't awfully different from a training dummy. Yes, we're most definitely playing different game if you feel it's a representative benchmark of stamina's performance in PvE.

What I'm talking about is the new trials - vAS, vHoF, vCR, and even some older (vHRC HM is a good example). In endgame content, stamina (and it's medium armor and almost always melee) extremely vulnerable and can't keep sustained damage, partly because it's force to roll-dodge away from one-shots a lot, partly because mechanics often require range. There's a reason why prominent score runs are predominantly magicka DDs. I'm not saying that changing medium armor will solve all problems (range-favoring mechanics still remain), but it's one thing to consider.

(And by the way, to compare sets from your example. Magicka has more choices for its sets for damage, so your last day's companion could swap Siroria for BSW or something else without taking a huge hit. On another hand, Arms of Relequen provides a great damage boost other sets can't compete with, and that's a big issue: when this set fails, stamina fails with it. Even not in trials - try running Darkshade Caverns 2 with it and see bull netch punishing you for using AoR by having short windows of opportunity when its vulnerable; Arms of Relequen takes minimum of 20 seconds of damage ramp-up, and that's with perfect rotation. Diversity of gear is also a huge problem.)

I agree with you for Stam having issues in vAS and vCR, but in the other trials, even vHoF and vHRC, you can easily have at least half the DDs on Stam without issues and aiming for top scores.