PTS Update 19 - Feedback Thread for Werewolf Skill Line

Avran_Sylt · July 2018

The "Upright_Walking" animation has been overridden by the "All_Fours" animation. (Werewolf Berserker)

This causes odd hip-movement when moving forward and attacking.

I would suggest keeping the "All_Fours" animation when the WW has their "weapons" "sheathed". And when "unsheathed" have it use the "Upright_Walking" animation.

This could be expanded upon in the future (swapping stances essentially), but the above would be the most pleasing fix for now.

usmcjdking · July 2018

Chrlynsch wrote: »

-Allow werewolves the ability to stealth, it is a slap in the face to werewolves to finally get into The Hunting Grounds and have one of the boss mechanics require stealth and not be able to do.

This is the only one I do not agree with.

WW should be strong, but it should also be limited in what it can do. Prior to Theives Guild it was too limiting. Couldn't open doors, operate mechanics that required you to hit stuff (Ibomez grenades, Inhibitor pinion) which IMO were entirely superficial limitations.

WWs not using synergies was a relic from when WW was actually fairly strong in PVE (never great, but was decent) up until Orsinium. Since power creep, resource management changes, CP changes and scaling changes have occurred since then, the state of WW degraded tremendously and this was changed to help mitigate the woes of WW.

Stealth on the other hand is neither thematically associated with WWs, nor is it remotely required. While it would be certainly nice, it's a moderate limitation to the WW class that I think should remain to keep it thematically intact unlike, say, the overbuffed, hypereffective and overused vampire.

Sharee · July 2018

usmcjdking wrote: »

Stealth on the other hand is neither thematically associated with WWs, nor is it remotely required.

On the other hand, what would be thematically associated with WWs is natural stealth detection:

usmcjdking · July 2018

Sharee wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Stealth on the other hand is neither thematically associated with WWs, nor is it remotely required.

On the other hand, what would be thematically associated with WWs is natural stealth detection:

Yup, WWs in the other ES games had increased detection capabilities. Could be problematic from a balance perspective though and as much as ESO should remain lore friendly, it shouldn't be at the expense of combat balance.

Sharee · July 2018

usmcjdking wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Stealth on the other hand is neither thematically associated with WWs, nor is it remotely required.

On the other hand, what would be thematically associated with WWs is natural stealth detection:

Yup, WWs in the other ES games had increased detection capabilities. Could be problematic from a balance perspective though and as much as ESO should remain lore friendly, it shouldn't be at the expense of combat balance.

Well, it is an ultimate...

usmcjdking · July 2018

Sharee wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Stealth on the other hand is neither thematically associated with WWs, nor is it remotely required.

On the other hand, what would be thematically associated with WWs is natural stealth detection:

Yup, WWs in the other ES games had increased detection capabilities. Could be problematic from a balance perspective though and as much as ESO should remain lore friendly, it shouldn't be at the expense of combat balance.

Well, it is an ultimate...

I think if it were to be implement it would have to be a completely different command and not be an innate passive (kinda like devour) or tied to any skill. It would have to be a cast time "skill" and then you could have it like reveal chests and other mats and deer and buried bones and ***.

Maybe that could be the new crouch command?

Lordwolfie · July 2018

AuldWolf wrote: »

@Lordwolfie

I've mentioned a taunt elsewhere, too. A taunt would allow it to be more like the templar tag team situation (which is one of my favourite play styles for a duo). With just two werewolves you could taunt back and forth and allow the other player a breather, perhaps to go 'grab a snack' or whatever they need to do to maintain werewolf, heal up, or whatever else.

A taunt would allow juggling between werewolves with any number of werewolves above 1. Even if it's just two werewolves, the taunt would grant them both more control over how they play. I've mentioned before that I really feel that werewolves need this. Not to tank, necessarily, but to juggle.

Honestly, there's a lot of things that werewolf needs that they didn't do, though. I don't think a single patch has ever killed my enthusiasm for a game so much, it's honestly spectacular. They built up my hype with Werewolf hunter and those marvellously monstrous new behemoths, whispering promises of a new werewolf model rather than the poorly made one that looks like pre-2005 era graphics in a 2018 game; They built up hype with the werewolf representatives allowing us to think like things such as the taunt and making werewolf a toggle might actually make it into the game; They didn't do anything to dissuade this...

And now here we are. The thread about werewolves pulling 50k DPS and holding perma-form that way is going to give people false hope, too. That's going to get nerfed into the ground, with gleeful reproach and abandon.

Sigh.

I honestly thought I could trust ZOS more than this.

Couldn't agree more with you on this. There are quite a few things that I was hoping they might consider but it feels as if they were afraid to change to much. I don't think people want werewolf to just be a massive dps that swings light attacks constantly.

Having Taunt and allowing certain sets to work while in WW would honestly change the class up and add some flavor to it. Who would they be hurting by giving WW taunt.

Sandman929 · July 2018

So much werewolfy stuff being tested, and I'd like to suggest another test if anyone is inclined to do it. Has anyone tested the Harmony trait on Feeding Frenzy now that werewolves can use synergies? Also, does Harmony have any effect on health restoration or timer increase on Devour (this one has always activated like a synergy, but I'm not sure if it's actually considered one). Thanks.

Glaiceana · July 2018

Resurrect and synergy animations here for anyone wondering:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-xJBkv9zxY
Love the new animation for ressing, pretty cute! I think it would be cool to see the soul gem in the left hand though, would it be possible to add that?

Synergy is fine, pretty quick but still obvious it worked, which is nice. (Added bonus footage of emotes working with werewolf currently, all work on live server)

GreenHere · July 2018

Why is our damage boost (Major Brutality) tied to our heal (and a MORPH at that)? I want to save my magicka for when I actually need it... and the howl of the healing skill doesn't say "I'm about to tear some fools up" like the roar of Roar does, ya know?

I propose that Roar should have Major Brutality by default, and only Ferocious should fear and set off balance. Give Rousing -- er... Deafening Roar the aoe Major Fracture. I would actually like to have the option to NOT run a fear on my PvE wolves, while still having a meaningful skill to use in that slot.

Make both Hircine's howls heal the same; while Hircine's Fortitude provides Minor Protection for some period of time (~6 seconds?), and Rage provides Minor Force for a decent period of time (~20 seconds?). Then both heals are viable, and the names of the skill actually indicate what they do (something ESO sorely needs more of). This would make one morph good for those moments where you need some extra survivability, and the other one actually increases dps without contributing to the sky high Weapon Damage the WW adjustments seem to want to avoid.

I feel like skills are often mismatched in what they should do or how they are named. Is it just me?

GreenHere · July 2018

Also, I like the idea of running vet dungeons in 4 WW groups. We want to do this. We want to stay in form the whole time, start to finish. We want to be viable to complete all content in our Pack...

To do this, WW could really benefit from a taunt. Otherwise, each of us need to be tanky enough to take the heat when bosses pick us at random, and/or we need to have enough damage debuffs in the group to lower the incoming hurt to survivable levels. Either way, we have to make build sacrifices we'd rather not to accommodate ZOS's lack of accommodation. That's what we do now, and it dampers the fun to a noticeable degree.

What's so wrong with giving a WW the ability to taunt? I totally understand and agree with people who don't want a WW tank in their non WW dungeon/trial runs, but that's up to their discretion at the time...

TL;DR - Please give WW a taunt!

GreenHere · July 2018

Also also, I really hope that the Major Fracture from Deafening Roar is NOT dependent on the target being feared, as the patch notes wording implies... Can anyone confirm?

Seems like that would only be beneficial for PvP, where CC immunity gives you a chance to avoid a wolf's Fracture being applied on you. But for PvE, this is annoying... I want Fracture on the (almost always CC-immune) bosses most of all!

Peekachu99 · July 2018

@ZOS_GinaBruno Gina, is it at all possible you might be able to ping the dev team and ask how/if Call of the Pack is factored into the new WW timer? Like does it reduce the 5s cool down to 4s or something? The mechanics aren’t really clear. Even a note in the next PTS document would be great to clear things up.

Also, first post feedback that the timer extension should proc from both damage done and received kinda nails the general consensus here and via YouTube/ testers. It’s quite hard to stay in form in PVP on PTS, given snares, roots, and things that prevent attacking.

SenorCrouch · July 2018

I may be coming at this from a more aesthetic perspective here, but I was kind of hoping that this new Werewolf rework would have the Ultimate itself act more like the Sorc's Overload Ult and would function like this:

- To transform into werewolf the ultimate will remove 325 ult from your pool. So if you have a reserve of 500 ult you still have 175 ult left.
- While in combat, your Werewolf form overexerts itself for combat which starts a countdown bar which can be replenished with abilities like Devour and Feral Pounce
- While out of combat, your form stabilizes and halts the countdown bar until combat is reengaged
- You can still elect to get out of Werewolf form by toggling your ult again

I can walk from one side of Tamriel to the other in Overload form, I don't see why I can't do the same in Werewolf form. Also I hear people talking about how our werewolf forms should look more like [INSERT ADJECTIVE HERE]. What about Werewolf polymorphs? Fluffier werewolves, gory werewolves, cooler looking werewolves, friendlier looking werewolves, bulkier werewolves, Hallowjack themed werewolves...and so on and so forth.

GreenHere · July 2018

SenorCrouch wrote: »

I may be coming at this from a more aesthetic perspective here, but I was kind of hoping that this new Werewolf rework would have the Ultimate itself act more like the Sorc's Overload Ult and would function like this:

- To transform into werewolf the ultimate will remove 325 ult from your pool. So if you have a reserve of 500 ult you still have 175 ult left.
- While in combat, your Werewolf form overexerts itself for combat which starts a countdown bar which can be replenished with abilities like Devour and Feral Pounce
- While out of combat, your form stabilizes and halts the countdown bar until combat is reengaged
- You can still elect to get out of Werewolf form by toggling your ult again

I can walk from one side of Tamriel to the other in Overload form, I don't see why I can't do the same in Werewolf form. Also I hear people talking about how our werewolf forms should look more like [INSERT ADJECTIVE HERE]. What about Werewolf polymorphs? Fluffier werewolves, gory werewolves, cooler looking werewolves, friendlier looking werewolves, bulkier werewolves, Hallowjack themed werewolves...and so on and so forth.

I like the way you think.

usmcjdking · July 2018

WW timer should stop when in a Home.

Kind of annoying to test when you periodically need to build 300 ult.

Avran_Sylt · July 2018

Personally I'd suggest this:

Lower the Overall LA and Bleed damage. (15% each)

Buff the Feeding Frenzy Synergy, either duration or number of people effected (WW offers a group more overall DPS)

Deafening Roar: Make this morph apply Off-balance instead of Ferocious Roar
Ferocious Roar: Make this morph Grant you and nearby allies Minor Berserk for a Duration

Piercing Howl: Make the base skill (and Morphs) Apply Major Fracture.
(Add in a Taunt somehow)

Tannus15 · July 2018

usmcjdking wrote: »

WW timer should stop when in a Home.

Kind of annoying to test when you periodically need to build 300 ult.

just buy the new WW friendly home

Tannus15 · July 2018

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Personally I'd suggest this:

Lower the Overall LA and Bleed damage. (15% each)

Buff the Feeding Frenzy Synergy, either duration or number of people effected (WW offers a group more overall DPS)

Deafening Roar: Make this morph apply Off-balance instead of Ferocious Roar
Ferocious Roar: Make this morph Grant you and nearby allies Minor Berserk for a Duration

Piercing Howl: Make the base skill (and Morphs) Apply Major Fracture.
(Add in a Taunt somehow)

a howl morph with a taunt would be amaaaaazing

Aliyavana · July 2018

I really want werewolf to be viable in pve, not totally op but maybe enough to be considered to be brought into a raid. No one in the past has ever said that they should bring a werewolf into a raid, what if we gave them the old 5 piece bonus of sunder into their kit?

sly007 · July 2018

I would like a werewolf time for console. Perhaps a time on the ultimate icon since ultimate cannot be gained in werewolf form.

Ertthewolf · July 2018

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Pulling my post from another thread.

Devour
Works like a dream, how I always hoped it would. It is smooth and responsive. I get about a 2k heal per second in pvp, and it can crit heal as well (unsure if spell crit or weapon crit). You get about ticks of time restore before the corpse is consumed. You can devour for two seconds and come back if the corpse is there and finish the last 2 seconds. Feels like the total duration is the same. There is now a blood pillar hovering over those you haven't devoured making it easy to detect what corpses you haven't devoured without hovering over the corpses.

There is now no cooldown on devour. This means you can devour one corpse and then immediately start devouring the next if your timer isn't full. Awesomeness!

Bloodrage
Operates like we have theorized. It is a vast improvement in pve. In pvp it leaves a little to be desired mainly in Cyrodiil during seiges. We used to have to stand in fire or draw fire from enemies to stay in form, now we have to do damage but have no range attack. Solution equip a set that procs damage on a target like twin sisters... or... fire a siege weapon. Now that damage procs our bloodrage firing a seige weapon at a wall or dumping oil will grant us time in form.

While in combat and actually fighting you don't notice much difference. While pouncing with feral pounce you notice your bar jump. As you get 8 total seconds* for a pounce while jumping into the fight.

Resurrect
Works smoothly and the animation looks solid.

Pack Leader
Direwolves do in fact return if the pack leader is killed.

Direwolves move slightly faster then before and attacks are faster. They could be used to eat away at an enemies stam or as meat shields.

The Direwolves however do not trigger bloodrage. I am not sure if this is intended or if this is how other pets operate in terms of passives.

When solo the dire wolves will taunt targets. When near an ally the dire wolves do not taunt.

Animations
New animations were added to claws (swipe streak (helps you identify impact range), howl (mini horizontal tornado vortex projectile), synergy activation animation for all synergies, resurrecting animation looks great.

Synergizes
Being able to activate synergies is a big plus, damage increase, sustain, survivability overall big bonus for group play.

Healing
Big change, a lot of recoil from the wolf community. On pts it is great! I am getting Similar heals to a pelinals set up before replacing with a new set.

Passive Reworks
Moving speed to pursuit and armor and spell resistance to savage strength makes the perks a little easier for new wolves to digest.

DPS
In pve werewolf can make use of Relequen and bloodmoon the combo of these sets can lead to some pretty extreme dps. Set light attack to your scroll wheel and watch the numbers fly.

Suggested changes
-Allow werewolf the ability to place siege, or prepare for whispers from werewolves begging to use your siege.
-Make direwolves taunt the target to you. (For werewolf tanks)
-Nerf that blood moon.
-Allow werewolves the ability to stealth, it is a slap in the face to werewolves to finally get into The Hunting Grounds and have one of the boss mechanics require stealth and not be able to do.

@Chrlynsch

Awesome. Finally some good solid info about the changes vs the speculation and fears. Thank you

Sharee · July 2018

usmcjdking wrote: »

WW timer should stop when in a Home.

Kind of annoying to test when you periodically need to build 300 ult.

One of the new homes coming with wolfhunter will have this feature, IIRC.

Lordwolfie · July 2018

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Pulling my post from another thread.

Devour
Works like a dream, how I always hoped it would. It is smooth and responsive. I get about a 2k heal per second in pvp, and it can crit heal as well (unsure if spell crit or weapon crit). You get about ticks of time restore before the corpse is consumed. You can devour for two seconds and come back if the corpse is there and finish the last 2 seconds. Feels like the total duration is the same. There is now a blood pillar hovering over those you haven't devoured making it easy to detect what corpses you haven't devoured without hovering over the corpses.

There is now no cooldown on devour. This means you can devour one corpse and then immediately start devouring the next if your timer isn't full. Awesomeness!

Bloodrage
Operates like we have theorized. It is a vast improvement in pve. In pvp it leaves a little to be desired mainly in Cyrodiil during seiges. We used to have to stand in fire or draw fire from enemies to stay in form, now we have to do damage but have no range attack. Solution equip a set that procs damage on a target like twin sisters... or... fire a siege weapon. Now that damage procs our bloodrage firing a seige weapon at a wall or dumping oil will grant us time in form.

While in combat and actually fighting you don't notice much difference. While pouncing with feral pounce you notice your bar jump. As you get 8 total seconds* for a pounce while jumping into the fight.

Resurrect
Works smoothly and the animation looks solid.

Pack Leader
Direwolves do in fact return if the pack leader is killed.

Direwolves move slightly faster then before and attacks are faster. They could be used to eat away at an enemies stam or as meat shields.

The Direwolves however do not trigger bloodrage. I am not sure if this is intended or if this is how other pets operate in terms of passives.

When solo the dire wolves will taunt targets. When near an ally the dire wolves do not taunt.

Animations
New animations were added to claws (swipe streak (helps you identify impact range), howl (mini horizontal tornado vortex projectile), synergy activation animation for all synergies, resurrecting animation looks great.

Synergizes
Being able to activate synergies is a big plus, damage increase, sustain, survivability overall big bonus for group play.

Healing
Big change, a lot of recoil from the wolf community. On pts it is great! I am getting Similar heals to a pelinals set up before replacing with a new set.

Passive Reworks
Moving speed to pursuit and armor and spell resistance to savage strength makes the perks a little easier for new wolves to digest.

DPS
In pve werewolf can make use of Relequen and bloodmoon the combo of these sets can lead to some pretty extreme dps. Set light attack to your scroll wheel and watch the numbers fly.

Suggested changes
-Allow werewolf the ability to place siege, or prepare for whispers from werewolves begging to use your siege.
-Make direwolves taunt the target to you. (For werewolf tanks)
-Nerf that blood moon.
-Allow werewolves the ability to stealth, it is a slap in the face to werewolves to finally get into The Hunting Grounds and have one of the boss mechanics require stealth and not be able to do.

The ability to taunt would be absolutely amazing. Really do feel like it would add a lot more fun to Werewolf.

Lord_Eomer · July 2018

Sharee wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

WW timer should stop when in a Home.

Kind of annoying to test when you periodically need to build 300 ult.

One of the new homes coming with wolfhunter will have this feature, IIRC.

It's good feature WW timer stops in specific home.

usmcjdking · July 2018

Sharee wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

WW timer should stop when in a Home.

Kind of annoying to test when you periodically need to build 300 ult.

One of the new homes coming with wolfhunter will have this feature, IIRC.

That's awesome.

Which reminds me @Sharee , had a showerthought.

In old EQ, there was a class called Ranger. It had the ability to track - it was somewhat non-intuitive but you could track all sorts of stuff to include other players. When you pressed track it would say "Your target is N/E/S/W of you".

Perhaps something similar could extent to WW. You go into crouch and you go into like "casing" mode, where you have new abilities like "track enemies", "track treasure", "track materials" - give it a good sized radius (saaaaaay 40m) and have potential targets pop up on your overhead compass as objectives.

Thraben · July 2018

Glaiceana wrote: »

Resurrect and synergy animations here for anyone wondering:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-xJBkv9zxY
Love the new animation for ressing, pretty cute! I think it would be cool to see the soul gem in the left hand though, would it be possible to add that?
Synergy is fine, pretty quick but still obvious it worked, which is nice. (Added bonus footage of emotes working with werewolf currently, all work on live server)

So if I eat a dead ally, and rez him/her afterwards, am I becoming a Necromancerwolf?

Finally something I can do during sieges - beside doing the werewolf dance (press block and move sideways, that is

)

Transairion · July 2018

As already mentioned by others, the Salvation set (the only WW specific set in ESO) could use a rework/buff now:

Salvation Set
LEVEL 50 CHAMPION 160
(2 items) Adds 1096 Max Stamina
(3 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
(4 items) Adds 1096 Max Stamina
(5 items) Salvation Reduces cost of Werewolf Transformation by 33%. While in werewolf form Weapon Damage is increased by 150.

How about adding something like "taking damage adds 3 seconds to your Werewolf duration, once every 3 seconds" (the old Blood Rage effect) to this set, giving Werewolves the option to build for permanent Werewolf form by dealing and taking damage instead of just one or the other.

Or perhaps even go so far as "Increases Werewolf Timer duration by 500%" as the lone 5-peice bonus, allowing minutes of Werewolf form before the extension passives/skills are taken into effect. Not quite a toggle, but close enough to allow for world RP and so on. I can't really see the damage of "permanent Werewolf" in this manner, not with Werewolves only having 5 specific abilities to work with compared to 12 varied abilities (two Ultimates) for all other classes, Vampires included.

@ Werewolf taunt though, I am perplexed... how exactly would a Werewolf tank, let alone healer work? Even with a taunt, you'll only have 5 abilities and all the buffs Werewolves provide are damage based (no self-buffing tankiness or healing allies, only self-healing), with a taunting Werewolf only having the option to block and use the self-heal.

A WW has no ally-healing skills, so how can it be a healer? How is a WW with a working taunt any different to any DPS role using a taunt? Still can't really debuff enemies, buff allies, or survive the big hits tanks are desired for any better than any DPS of the other classes, no?

k0suna · July 2018

Transairion wrote: »

@ Werewolf taunt though, I am perplexed... how exactly would a Werewolf tank, let alone healer work? Even with a taunt, you'll only have 5 abilities and all the buffs Werewolves provide are damage based (no self-buffing tankiness or healing allies, only self-healing), with a taunting Werewolf only having the option to block and use the self-heal.

A WW has no ally-healing skills, so how can it be a healer? How is a WW with a working taunt any different to any DPS role using a taunt? Still can't really debuff enemies, buff allies, or survive the big hits tanks are desired for any better than any DPS of the other classes, no?

Many sets allow for buffs/debuffs outside of skills, besides that fact, it will allow a group of werewolves more flexibility when doing content. Also, who says people will stay in werewolf all dungeon. There are plenty sets that could help werewolf tank and I honestly don't see a problem with werewolves having a taunt.

Being able to buff/defbuff yourself/allies/enemies > Taunt > WW > roam around and taunt till buffs/debuffs run out or whatever. The fact of that option being there opens up a lot for WW. Also with the new heal it would do the skill line some good, and makes it more comparable (If anything) to the flexibility of vampires.

With the WW skill line you must devote the build to it. The difference between a DPS, picking up a shield or a frost staff and tanking, and a werewolf tanking would be the fact that the werewolf would be building for that purpose.

I don't think anyone here has asked for werewolf to be a group healer though. I do wish they would add more skills that would reinforce tanking if they do add a taunt, but even then a werewolf tank wouldn't be horrible especially mixed with more werewolves. On the note of werewolf tanks. I think changes like these would help out a lot if they decide to add a taunt morph to Howl:

Thraben wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Werewolf skill line, and the changes to its mechanics, abilities, and passives. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance and changes.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*]Werewolf
Pack Leader (morph): This morph now reduces your damage by 25%, but adds following effects:

Pounce: adds 5 seconds to the duration of the Werewolf Transformation of you and your allies
Hircines´s Bounty: Heals you and your allies over time by 50% when applied after an enemy has been killed within 15meters.
Roar: Applies Minor expedition to you and your allies
Piercing Howl: Taunts the target
Infectious Claws: Applies Minor lifesteal

Call of the Pack
Reduces the cost of maintaining werewolf form by 10%/20% for every werewolf in your group up to 12 werewolves instead of 4.

TheStealthDude · July 2018

Maybe I am in the minority here, but I don't want to have to make room for a taunt on one of the precious few skills that Werewolves have. Just allow Tormentor to work with leap instead.